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So a lot of people are talking about "you dont need a fighter, druid works better" and stuff like that. So I am curious, what would you say is the strongest or most well rounded 4 man party.
Basic assumptions:
20 point buy
All paizo material open (if you can find it under paizo on the pfsrd your golden)
Standard WBL
Starting at level 1 then progressing to level 12 (standard PFS progression from what I have seen and the typical levels people seem to play)
So lets have fun!
Personally I believe a Master Summoner, First Worlder, Synthesist Summoner, and Investigator are fairly strong and capable of covering everything. Also, the Investigator has a high int and lots of skill points so he can easily cover the skill monkey and can grab infusion to help buff/ooc heal the summoners.
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Most well rounded party would surely be 4 x Bloatmage?
Oh, and i picked first worlder over another master summoner due to having the SNA vs another SM. SNA has its uses and the ability to summon thinga like Pugwyp thingues and Unicorns early on really helps on the healing and pixies make AWESOME scouts and such :p
Oh, and i picked first worlder over another master summoner due to having the SNA vs another SM. SNA has its uses and the ability to summon thinga like Pugwyp thingues and Unicorns early on really helps on the healing and pixies make AWESOME scouts and such :p
I think you are a bit biased on the pixies, =)
Not at all! I am perfectly unbiased! Just because pixies are the most amazing things since slice bread isnt our fault :P
Arcanist - Can pick up Summoner style summon SLAs while still filling the entire wizard role including a full spellbook to draw from
Shaman - In so many ways better than a cleric, since you can change your spirits every damn day. Can take care of healing if needed, but applies some nice hexes and other goodies as well. If not this then the oracle archetype that gives a spirit
Inquisitor - Makes an exceptional skill monkey with great damage potential. Can be a great diplomat with conversion inquisition, or let the arcanist focus on other skills with high knowledge checks, and can trap at the same time
Barbarian - For pure damage, the stereotypical pounce magic sundering Barbarian simply cant be beat.
I believe this team can cover any situation, with multiple options that can change daily to confront whatever threat is ahead. The Arcanist and Shaman are both so flexible, and the inquisitor and Barbarian can together eat any baddie for lunch.
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I would happily argue that Druid/Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer/Shaman/Master Summoner is one of the strongest possible teams. I'll unpack exactly what synergies make this combination so strong.
Druid - Druids can fill a number of roles in party from front line meleer, to battlefield control, to healing, to skills especially very important WIS skills like Perception. Especially helpful during early levels 1-5 where the Animal Companion is an extremely reliable free combatant. The Druids effectiveness tapers off at the higher levels, but can still perform it's roles well.
Master Summoner - Wielding a Skill Eidolon and a versatile long duration set of summoned monsters, the Master Summoner is mostly Battlefield control via Summon and buffing. Master Summoner's get a number of valuable buff spells "early" which helps make the low levels much easier. At later levels, they become versatile problem solvers using the massive toolbox Summon Monster provides to address problems on the fly. Doubles as a face.
Shaman - In counter to the Druid and Master Summoner, the Shaman is aiming for the late game. At low levels, the Shaman is at their weakest (particularly level 1), but eventually grows into a much more powerful and even more versatile problem solver. Can cover a variety of roles simply by switching spirits, and can prepare key spells off the Sorcerer/Wizard list at earliest possible level. Serves as mostly as debuff, providing Save or Die Slumber from level 2. Synergizes very well with the Razmiran Priest Sorcerer by converting Sorcerer/Wizard spells with expensive material components into divine scrolls, which the Sorcerer can use cost free out of a 1 level higher spell slot.
Sage Razmiran Priest Sorcerer - In terms of set-up this character takes the longest to get going. Thanks to Sage, the Sorcerer can use INT which has the side-effect of giving the Sorcerer a ton of skills to put to use. Covers the Trapfinding role with help from Aram Zey's Focus. Covers battlefield control and debuffing with Sorcerer list. Works as a back up healer thanks to Divine Scrolls at level 9+. Works in combination with Shaman to get party access to powerful cost free spells. At high levels, the Sorcerer can fill all roles effectively while providing a massive amount of skills.
In this set-up the Druid/Summoner shine early on while while the Shaman and Sorcerer take over at later levels. All of them can cover a number of roles and have a lot of flexibility and unique abilities to bring to the table.
I like...
Paladin- Face,Primary melee and great saves+ healing
Bard- Face,buffing,skill monkey,support melee,support caster+healing
Wizard- Buffing and battlefield control,Crowd control.
Cleric- Buffing and Healing,Support melee,Undead control
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The most powerful group of four I've ever seen is currently running through my Giantslayer campaign. Its not what I'd call the most well-rounded but they are devastatingly effective, especially at mid to low levels:
Half-Orc 1st level Bloodrager/11th level Skald (Fated Champion)
The leader of the group, he uses Versatile Performance to maximize social skills and spells for everything from healing to buffs to information-gathering. His real contribution however is Inspired Rage. It makes everything go as everyone's first level(s) are their Barbarian levels and everyone's first feat is Amplified Rage... meaning that by 2nd level, everyone is getting +8 Strength and +8 Constitution whenever they're adjacent to another member of the party. The fast healing from Skald's Vigor and Greater Skald's Vigor is major, as is the ability to eventually grant Rage Powers like Superstition, Greater Beast Totem (Pounce) and Come and Get Me. Spell Kenning is a great get-out-of-jail-free card.
Half-Orc 2nd level Barbarian (Wild Rager & Pack Rager)/10th level Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Half-Orc 2nd level Barbarian (Wild Rager & Pack Rager)/10th level Fighter (Weaponmaster)
These two builds are identical (they're twins) and lean heavily on a number of useful teamwork feats, everything from Seize the Moment and Paired Opportunists to Lastwall Phalanx (something they all eventually get). Their AC is much better than most Barbarians and through Wild Fighting, by 2nd level, they can make an extra two-handed attack every round. Since they're working off of Inspired Rage from the Skald, there is no risk incurred from Uncontrolled Rage.
Half-Orc 1st level Bloodrager/11th level Witch (Scarred Witchdoctor)
The final piece of the puzzle... the Scarred Witchdoctor's spells and most importantly its Hexes are Constitution-based. As far as I understand it, he can't cast spells while under the effects of rage, but Hexes are obviously still an option along with wands, scrolls and potions, plus he can use all of those while wearing full armor. With Amplified Rage and Raging Vitality you're seeing an overall +10 to his Con score and a +5 to his Hex DC. The character focuses on Slumber, Misfortune and Evil Eye as his debuffs and then takes things like Flight and Hag's Eye for utility. After slumber/de-buffing, he often just enters melee with a reach weapon, backing up his allies in combat - assuming its not already over by then. Most of his spells tend to be healing or divination type things that are cast once the day has ended or before its begun.
This group doesn't technically have every base covered, but they've steamrolled through things so far, and I've had to ramp up most encounters just to provide them a challenge - and this is right off the bat from 1st or 2nd level. They're all doing the Sacred Tattoo, Fortune's Favored thing so their saves are high and they all have darkvision which is convenient. Actually got some pretty killer backstory/RP angles too - I'm going to be chronicling their campaign and posting it on that forum soon if anyone's interested. They're midway through book 2 right now, at 6th level.
Bard, Inquisitor, Alchemist, and Skald.
Huge overlap, all 3/4ths bab self buffing classes that are independently mechanically strong, and combining rage song and bard song is incredibly lethal.
I think the difficulty with this is that the Most Well Rounded 4 man party at level 1 differentiates vastly to that of level 12.
Interesting to see what some come up with thus far in regards to what they feel would be the most well rounded for all those levels.
I think the difficulty with this is that the Most Well Rounded 4 man party at level 1 differentiates vastly to that of level 12.
Exactly - secondary casters and spontaneous casters lose very little to full prepared casters at level 1-2, partial casters are fairly simple martials at low levels, while basic martials can dominate low-level fights in a way they'll miss later on.
Druid, bard, cavalier, Lunar oracle with Primal Companion is fairly simple, but well-rounded right out of the gate. Access to spontaneous healing, all knowledge skills, multiple 'faces', plenty of muscle from mount and two animal companion, and no squishy unarmoured d6 types.
Bard Archer with an archetype for a unique performance
That Cleric Archetype with Inspire Courage. Also gets Sacred Summons. Also Feather Subdomain for animal companion.
Hunter with a Big Cat or something
Wizard or Arcanist that does Wizard/arcanist stuff.
The Hunter and Animal companion make a great brick of a front line and deal more damage than most martial builds. Also scales into late game a lot better than most "martials" due to useful spells and ridiculous damage.
Bard Archer does great DPR thanks to Archery being super strong on bards, also does awesome Bard things out of combat. Since Cleric will be inspiring courage you can pick another archetype.
Cleric and Wizard. Need I say more. Also Cleric can spit out more frontliners using Sacred Summons. Just need em alive long enough to keep Squishies safe.
DM may cry though
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The most powerful group of four I've ever seen is currently running through my Giantslayer campaign. Its not what I'd call the most well-rounded but they are devastatingly effective, especially at mid to low levels:
Half-Orc 1st level Bloodrager/11th level Skald (Fated Champion)
The leader of the group, he uses Versatile Performance to maximize social skills and spells for everything from healing to buffs to information-gathering. His real contribution however is Inspired Rage. It makes everything go as everyone's first level(s) are their Barbarian levels and everyone's first feat is Amplified Rage... meaning that by 2nd level, everyone is getting +8 Strength and +8 Constitution whenever they're adjacent to another member of the party. The fast healing from Skald's Vigor and Greater Skald's Vigor is major, as is the ability to eventually grant Rage Powers like Superstition, Greater Beast Totem (Pounce) and Come and Get Me. Spell Kenning is a great get-out-of-jail-free card.Half-Orc 2nd level Barbarian (Wild Rager & Pack Rager)/10th level Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Half-Orc 2nd level Barbarian (Wild Rager & Pack Rager)/10th level Fighter (Weaponmaster)
These two builds are identical (they're twins) and lean heavily on a number of useful teamwork feats, everything from Seize the Moment and Paired Opportunists to Lastwall Phalanx (something they all eventually get). Their AC is much better than most Barbarians and through Wild Fighting, by 2nd level, they can make an extra two-handed attack every round. Since they're working off of Inspired Rage from the Skald, there is no risk incurred from Uncontrolled Rage.Half-Orc 1st level Bloodrager/11th level Witch (Scarred Witchdoctor)
The final piece of the puzzle... the Scarred Witchdoctor's spells and most importantly its Hexes are Constitution-based. As far as I understand it, he can't cast spells while under the effects of rage, but Hexes are obviously still an option along with wands, scrolls and potions, plus he can use all of...
i'd certainly be interested. seems like an awesome party - mages can go pound sand!
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Rogue, rogue, rogue, and rogue.
Each with slightly different specialties -- a couple of stabby combat rogues, a "face" rogue, and a "magic dabbling" rogue.
Core only -- no unchained.
(I've always wanted to try this... the common "rogues are terrible" wisdom out there makes me want to play an all-rogue party -- called "Rogue Squadron", of course -- to see/prove if/that it can be made to work.)
Baring cheese I would go
Wizard (Item crafter)
Cleric (Battle cleric)
Druid (Generalist Druid - Summon/battlefield-control/wild-shape-bruiser)
Sorcerer (party face, summoning focused)
At some point your horde of summoned/bound/charmed/dominated/planer-bind/planar-ally/animated/golem creatures will handle any threat you come across.
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I don't think there's any room for any martial except maybe paladin.
.
I beg to differ.
Can swap out a Bard for a dwarven Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong Monk w/ fast drinker, deep drinker, and that whole line of stuff.
Basically unlimited Ki; starting at 12th level, he gives all of his allies w/in 30' True strike every round (like all your summons Mr. Sacred Summoner), or he can use Restoration w/ zero real cost on all allies w/in 30' all day long, or have every summon, allied villager and follower use a CL 12+ Scorching Ray at the same time...
At level 19 he pulls the same stunt with Dragon Breath. Even if that's just 10 to 15 minor summons you flood the field with... 10 to 15 x 20d6 is a crap-ton of damage.
He can Shadowwalk the entire party all day long, and/or Dimension Door them all (as a move action) all day long.
Ever wanted to see what happens when your Cleric/Druid/Arcane types summon in 5 or 6 Fiendish Dire Crocodiles, and a gaggle of Rocs (or Vrocks?), and then your Sensei Monk gives them -ALL- Battlemind Link in a single round?? Cause you can.
Monks, who knew.
.
ALTERNATIVE: Go Sensei, Monk of the Four Winds Qinggong. Now you can spend a bunch of Ki to Slow Time for everyone... give all your meat shields 3 standard actions on their turn. Like the dozen Elder Earth Elementals all the casters just summoned, Bullrushing 3 times each in 1 round...
...it'd be kind of like watching old Football games where John Riggins just keeps running down the field while 3 Miami dolphins are hanging off of him like squirrels on a tree. OR the "Refrigerator" Perry mowing through the whoever was stupid enough to be in front of him... in triple time.
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The answer is an unfortunately prosaic Wizard x4. The OG OP still can't be bested without a smorgasbord of cheese. Can reliably and easily replicate any other class's ability. Buffing, debuffing, control, damage, guile, stealth? There's a spell for that.
Starts damn good at level 1 and becomes an unstoppable juggernaut at 10. And you'll never run out of spells when there's 4 of you.
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The answer is an unfortunately prosaic Wizard x4. The OG OP still can't be bested without a smorgasbord of cheese. Can reliably and easily replicate any other class's ability. Buffing, debuffing, control, damage, guile, stealth? There's a spell for that.
Starts damn good at level 1 and becomes an unstoppable juggernaut at 10. And you'll never run out of spells when there's 4 of you.
...I dont' see how "without a smorgasbord of cheese" is a valid disqualifier in this discussion, at all.
.I'd rather have 2 Wizards (one Exploiter, one Conjuration:Teleportation OR Diviner), 1 Cleric (Evangelist w/ Glory domain and Sacred Summons) and the aforementioned Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong Monk, personally.
There is no spell substitute for "cast True Strike on Every ally in 30' as a standard action".
...nor is there a spell substitute for Standard Action (Staff) Empowered Sacred Summon Good Monster 150%*(1d4+2) Shield Archons w/ a Swift Action Mass Heroism on them all, and then the Monk from example above says "Battlemind Link them all too!" as a Standard and then "Dim.Door them all to the best locations" as a Move action and "Give them all __[INSERT USEFUL Qinggong]____ feat" as a Free action. He used his Swift action on Advice if it wasn't up already.
I would go
Hunter - Between the buffs and the teamwork feats, his animal companion will stay important longer than a druid. Outflank and pack flanking means that they almost always get +4, which offsets 3/4 bab. They get 2/3 casting to aid in healing and buffing. I like the Roc, it's not the highest damage dealer, but fly 80' is worth a little offset.
Shaman - as others have said they are extremely versatile with their spirits and a great healer/buffer/attacker.
Master Summoner - The variety of summons combine with a skillmonkey eidolon.
Wizard with crafting feats - Vastly increases WBL and gives an incredible variety of spells. Between wands, scrolls and their own slots, they should have something available for anything.
(note: If the campaign doesn't have the downtime for crafting, then swap the wizard for an arcanist)
Honorable mention:
Dawnflower dervish bard x/urban barbarian 2/Swashbuckler 3. Makes attack, damage and defense all dex based. They get to add twice the usual bardic bonus and then boost their dex even more. It will take feats to keep up enough rounds of rage and performance, but it's worth it. On top of that they get the boost of a bard
The most powerful group of four I've ever seen is currently running through my Giantslayer campaign. Its not what I'd call the most well-rounded but they are devastatingly effective, especially at mid to low levels:
Half-Orc 1st level Bloodrager/11th level Skald (Fated Champion)
THalf-Orc 2nd level Barbarian (Wild Rager & Pack Rager)/10th level Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Half-Orc 2nd level Barbarian (Wild Rager & Pack Rager)/10th level Fighter (Weaponmaster)
Half-Orc 1st level Bloodrager/11th level Witch (Scarred Witchdoctor)
The issue I have with this group is the late game. High level play usually assumes that you'll have at least one full caster to do things. The witch may not be able to quite fill that role.
Rogue, rogue, rogue, and rogue.
(I've always wanted to try this... the common "rogues are terrible" wisdom out there makes me want to play an all-rogue party -- called "Rogue Squadron", of course -- to see/prove if/that it can be made to work.)
And if you get stealth synergy and shadowdancer then nobody's ever seeing them.
The answer is an unfortunately prosaic Wizard x4. The OG OP still can't be bested without a smorgasbord of cheese. Can reliably and easily replicate any other class's ability. Buffing, debuffing, control, damage, guile, stealth? There's a spell for that.
Starts damn good at level 1 and becomes an unstoppable juggernaut at 10. And you'll never run out of spells when there's 4 of you.
They can split the load on crafting and then take cooperative crafting to make it damn quick. The only problem is level 1 survival. If they get ambushed, they may not be able to cast enough spells defensively to survive a pack of orcs.
I like the Herald Caller for the summoning & buffing role...
He takes the animal domain (fur), sacred summons, boon companion and dreamed secrets..... now he rides around on a fully levelled animal companion (Roc is good or tiger), casting spontaneous, standard action summons that have the Augment and Superior Summons feat attached for free and which he can heal from out of range distances using channeling. Then to top it off, from the back of his Roc on high, he lobs fireballs and lightning bolts at the screaming heathen peasants below whilst buffing his comrades!!!
I don't think there's any room for any martial except maybe paladin..
I beg to differ.
Can swap out a Bard for a dwarven Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong Monk w/ fast drinker, deep drinker, and that whole line of stuff.
Basically unlimited Ki; starting at 12th level, he gives all of his allies w/in 30' True strike every round (like all your summons Mr. Sacred Summoner), or he can use Restoration w/ zero real cost on all allies w/in 30' all day long, or have every summon, allied villager and follower use a CL 12+ Scorching Ray at the same time...
At level 19 he pulls the same stunt with Dragon Breath. Even if that's just 10 to 15 minor summons you flood the field with... 10 to 15 x 20d6 is a crap-ton of damage.
He can Shadowwalk the entire party all day long, and/or Dimension Door them all (as a move action) all day long.
Ever wanted to see what happens when your Cleric/Druid/Arcane types summon in 5 or 6 Fiendish Dire Crocodiles, and a gaggle of Rocs (or Vrocks?), and then your Sensei Monk gives them -ALL- Battlemind Link in a single round?? Cause you can.
Monks, who knew.
.ALTERNATIVE: Go Sensei, Monk of the Four Winds Qinggong. Now you can spend a bunch of Ki to Slow Time for everyone... give all your meat shields 3 standard actions on their turn. Like the dozen Elder Earth Elementals all the casters just summoned, Bullrushing 3 times each in 1 round...
...it'd be kind of like watching old Football games where John Riggins just keeps running down the field while 3 Miami dolphins are hanging off of him like squirrels on a tree. OR the "Refrigerator" Perry mowing through the whoever was stupid enough to be in front of him... in triple time.
*starts writing up a character*
The answer is an unfortunately prosaic Wizard x4.
So, at level 1, what happens to your four wizards when they have a 4-encounter day against CR-appropriate drow, or dwarves. Or regular elves with decent saves. Nothing special - warrior 1s or 2s, maybe a first-level PC with a warrior 1 for backup.
A goblin rogue with decent stealth and initiative, with maybe one goblin warrior for backup and flanking will have his first wizard bleeding out with no access to healing of any kind before anyone in the party gets to act. A Barbarian 1 with the rage bonus to his will save might get Slept or Colour Sprayed out of the fight, but will reliably pulp one wizard per round until this happens.No murderous GMing is required to kill members of 4 wizard party at level 1 - only marginally above average rolls by the enemy.
The even more prosaic cleric/druid/wizard/DPR ace party is streets ahead of Wizard x4 on well-roundedness.
The answer is an unfortunately prosaic Wizard x4.So, at level 1, what happens to your four wizards when they have a 4-encounter day against CR-appropriate drow, or dwarves. Or regular elves with decent saves. Nothing special - warrior 1s or 2s, maybe a first-level PC with a warrior 1 for backup.
A goblin rogue with decent stealth and initiative, with maybe one goblin warrior for backup and flanking will have his first wizard bleeding out with no access to healing of any kind before anyone in the party gets to act. A Barbarian 1 with the rage bonus to his will save might get Slept or Colour Sprayed out of the fight, but will reliably pulp one wizard per round until this happens.No murderous GMing is required to kill members of 4 wizard party at level 1 - only marginally above average rolls by the enemy.
The even more prosaic cleric/druid/wizard/DPR ace party is streets ahead of Wizard x4 on well-roundedness.
Don't forget about Infernal Healing. But I agree in terms of being well-rounded 4 Wizards will never be the correct answer. Since almost by definition four party members of the same class are not well-rounded.
Alchemist begs to differ... maybe inquisitior as well
Alchemist begs to differ... maybe inquisitior as well
While yes, you can build Alchemists and Inquistors to fill many different roles and bring many different abilities to the table, it will never be as many abilities as entirely different classes can bring to the table. Even 2 Alchemists and 2 Inquisitors would be more diverse and able to handle more situations then 4 of each. But if you had to make a well-rounded party of all one class, I agree those would be good classes for it.
Don't forget about Infernal Healing.
Fair cop. That should be 'limited only to Infernal Healing, which will at least save a life.
Since almost by definition four party members of the same class are not well-rounded.
Pretty much the case, though I don't think you'd go too wrong with some classes.
Combat oracle (metal mystery), animal companion generalist oracle(lunar mystery), blaster oracle (maybe flames), summoner/buffer oracle(dark tapestry?heavens?).Dwarf inquisitor with travel domain (armoured melee fighter), Inquisitor with animal domain for companion with archer build (recognising the companion doesn't come online until level 4), Inquisitor with Conversion Inquisition for face duties, Bad touch/debuff Inquisitor. Admittedly a shortage of summons.
All bard party - an archer, a summoner/buffer, arcane duelist armoured melee fighter, archaeologist or detective for traps and hazardous environments.
You get the pattern - basically any class that has enough hit points, some damage-dealing potential that doesn't consume resources, decent AC and CMD, and access to unprepared healing will function from level 1 as a single-class party, because they've covered their key vulnerabilities.
Alchemist begs to differ... maybe inquisitior as wellWhile yes, you can build Alchemists and Inquistors to fill many different roles and bring many different abilities to the table, it will never be as many abilities as entirely different classes can bring to the table. Even 2 Alchemists and 2 Inquisitors would be more diverse and able to handle more situations then 4 of each. But if you had to make a well-rounded party of all one class, I agree those would be good classes for it.
I meant 4 alchemists...
You got the Beastmorph/vivisectionist for melee support
Bomber AlcheMist for CC and damage
Mindchemist for knowledge monkey and buff bot (primary infusionist)
And maybe a Crypt Breaker for rogur coverage (trapfinding is nice to have)
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i'd certainly be interested. seems like an awesome party - mages can go pound sand!
Not to knock mages (or full casters) by any measure, but what I've found, over years of play in pretty much every iteration of this game is that mages always come out ahead in theory but in the practical application of play, martials are the most effective and most efficient in all but the highest levels of play. Sure a Barbarian hasn't got anything in his arsenal to compare with a Wish or Miracle, but the presupposed superiority of casters usually relies on 1) somehow managing to 'guess right' on all those spells they will need, otherwise they're left with a lot of blanks in their gun, 2) managing to bypass saving throws, spell resistance and whatever other immunities and resistances their targets may have and 3) all too often they presuppose a round or five to 'pre-cast' their various buffs and contingencies as well as a limited encounter day so that they don't run out of their key spells. Meanwhile well-built martials are beating face, every round, multiple times per round without burning actions for prep.
I the question had been levels 1-20, I'd see more potency to the full caster argument, but having seen these builds at every level 1-12, working together, its pretty freaking amazing what they can do.
Reach Druid (spells, healing, animal companion, excellent Perception, wildshaping, summoning, Combat Reflexes and Power Attack good in wildshape and with reach weapon)
Paladin (healing and tanking)
Arcanist
Urban Ranger (archer, skills, traps, scouting)
All can get pets, too, with familiar, animal companions, mount.
Is Leadership allowed?
Crafter wizard
Life Oracle healer
Bard buffer
Alchemist crafter/cc???
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Okay, for well rounded, I'm going to stick out of T1/2, since those classes almost fight against team work (sure you can build them to be team players, but they're almost more opposed to the idea with how much they can do by themselves), so we're going to go team T3.
1. Alchemist debuffer: With bombs and alchemical items, our friend here can really help keep the opponents down, as well as buffing themselves and keeping things going.
2. Bard buffer: Now we're adding power to the group with inspire courage as well as spells, a great force multiplier for the group and really just a solid member.
3. Hunter controller: With an animal companion, we've got a set who can really take advantage of the buff/debuff work of the other two as well as an animal who's able to actually land solid hits too with spell support.
4. Magus damage dealer: Magus helps round everything out with solid damage output that benefits so much from everyone else, and their spell list helps fill in the gaps.
To me, this is the best 4 person party because no one can do everything, everyone is helped by everyone else, everyone can buff everyone else (aside from magus, but bard makes that a non issue), and everyone is able to contribute in their own way.
We could probably switch the hunter for a martial of any kind (cavalier comes to mind), and the magus could just as easily be a paladin, but I think the alchemist/bard core for teams is VERY solid.
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Okay, for well rounded, I'm going to stick out of T1/2, since those classes almost fight against team work (sure you can build them to be team players, but they're almost more opposed to the idea with how much they can do by themselves), so we're going to go team T3.
1. Alchemist debuffer: With bombs and alchemical items, our friend here can really help keep the opponents down, as well as buffing themselves and keeping things going.
2. Bard buffer: Now we're adding power to the group with inspire courage as well as spells, a great force multiplier for the group and really just a solid member.
3. Hunter controller: With an animal companion, we've got a set who can really take advantage of the buff/debuff work of the other two as well as an animal who's able to actually land solid hits too with spell support.
4. Magus damage dealer: Magus helps round everything out with solid damage output that benefits so much from everyone else, and their spell list helps fill in the gaps.
To me, this is the best 4 person party because no one can do everything, everyone is helped by everyone else, everyone can buff everyone else (aside from magus, but bard makes that a non issue), and everyone is able to contribute in their own way.
We could probably switch the hunter for a martial of any kind (cavalier comes to mind), and the magus could just as easily be a paladin, but I think the alchemist/bard core for teams is VERY solid.
++1 this for Tier 3 group!
Human Hunter (eye for talent +2 Int from level 1) w/ Tyrannosaurus sporting Combat Reflexes, it's large sized 10' Reach, the Lunge Feat and Final Embrace (qualifies via Anacondas Coils...) would add sick Grappling and Movement control. And with Constrict he's doing basically double damage on every big bite... much better than vital strike cause it works on charges too.
I don't know much about Magus personally, but I keep hearing "Staff Magus can be Tier 2." Might need to avoid that archetype if that's true...? What kind of Magus for this, Hex Magus? They are pretty strong but not Tier 2.
The answer is an unfortunately prosaic Wizard x4.So, at level 1, what happens to your four wizards when they have a 4-encounter day against CR-appropriate drow, or dwarves. Or regular elves with decent saves. Nothing special - warrior 1s or 2s, maybe a first-level PC with a warrior 1 for backup.
They die. The same as any other group when the GM goes out of her way to design a party-specific encounter to produce a TPK.
A well-rounded party doesn't mean an invulnerable one, just one with a high probability of success against a wide variety of foes. But if the GM is specifically out to prove a point, then there's little that any character can do against a jerk with limitless power.
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If you have the same BAB as a cleric and everything the class does involves a SLA you aren't proposing a martial.I don't think there's any room for any martial except maybe paladin..
I beg to differ.
Can swap out a Bard for a dwarven Sensei Drunken Master Qinggong Monk w/ fast drinker, deep drinker, and that whole line of stuff.
Basically unlimited Ki; starting at 12th level, he gives all of his allies w/in 30' True strike every round (like all your summons Mr. Sacred Summoner), or he can use Restoration w/ zero real cost on all allies w/in 30' all day long, or have every summon, allied villager and follower use a CL 12+ Scorching Ray at the same time...
At level 19 he pulls the same stunt with Dragon Breath. Even if that's just 10 to 15 minor summons you flood the field with... 10 to 15 x 20d6 is a crap-ton of damage.
He can Shadowwalk the entire party all day long, and/or Dimension Door them all (as a move action) all day long.
Ever wanted to see what happens when your Cleric/Druid/Arcane types summon in 5 or 6 Fiendish Dire Crocodiles, and a gaggle of Rocs (or Vrocks?), and then your Sensei Monk gives them -ALL- Battlemind Link in a single round?? Cause you can.
Monks, who knew.
.ALTERNATIVE: Go Sensei, Monk of the Four Winds Qinggong. Now you can spend a bunch of Ki to Slow Time for everyone... give all your meat shields 3 standard actions on their turn. Like the dozen Elder Earth Elementals all the casters just summoned, Bullrushing 3 times each in 1 round...
...it'd be kind of like watching old Football games where John Riggins just keeps running down the field while 3 Miami dolphins are hanging off of him like squirrels on a tree. OR the "Refrigerator" Perry mowing through the whoever was stupid enough to be in front of him... in triple time.
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Lol, a straw man argument, irrelevant.
Also very literally factually untrue --monk, Sensei and Drunkemaster and Qinggong (and four winds) all have Ex, Su AND SLAs.
Monks are martial, Unchained or not, and have access to SLAs. Rogues have access to SLAs, Slayer(Stygian) as well, even damn Winding Path Renegade brawler can steal some Monkishness.
Bloodrager is wierdly a caster but also very strong martial, what a lucky guy!
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The answer is an unfortunately prosaic Wizard x4.So, at level 1, what happens to your four wizards when they have a 4-encounter day against CR-appropriate drow, or dwarves. Or regular elves with decent saves. Nothing special - warrior 1s or 2s, maybe a first-level PC with a warrior 1 for backup.They die. The same as any other group when the GM goes out of her way to design a party-specific encounter to produce a TPK.
A well-rounded party doesn't mean an invulnerable one, just one with a high probability of success against a wide variety of foes. But if the GM is specifically out to prove a point, then there's little that any character can do against a jerk with limitless power.
I'm sorry but a 1st level PC class and a warrior 1 isn't a GM that is specifically out to prove a point. It's a very normal and usual CR 1 encounter. Four Warrior 1s isn't a GM out to prove a point. With a party of four wizards, you have to have a GM that goes out of the way to design encounters which won't TPK them.
So, at level 1, what happens to your four wizards when they have a 4-encounter day against CR-appropriate drow, or dwarves. Or regular elves with decent saves. Nothing special - warrior 1s or 2s, maybe a first-level PC with a warrior 1 for backup.
They die. The same as any other group when the GM goes out of her way to design a party-specific encounter to produce a TPK.
The situation I described hardly constitutes 'going out of the way' - drow, I'll concede are a stretch, but an evil campaign or an urban adventure in a cosmopolitan city could pretty reasonably throw the four wizards against elves or dwarves at level 1. That's so very little out of the way that a GM could throw them against the four wizards with no intention of producing a TPK.
The other situations - a goblin Rogue 1 with his racial advantages winning initiative and opposed stealth/perception to get two sneak attacks before the wizards can act, or a Barbarian 1 getting a relatively decent combination of initiative and saving throw to get a raged-up Power Attack or two in - were chosen as much for their ordinariness as their danger to wizards.
A well-rounded party doesn't mean an invulnerable one, just one with a high probability of success against a wide variety of foes.
4 wizards at level one, with 8 1st-level spells plus arcane bond items between them, not much AC to speak of and even less CMD, 8-9 hp on average, and no form of unprepared healing, are not well-rounded by this definition.
But if the GM is specifically out to prove a point, then there's little that any character can do against a jerk with limitless power.
I wouldn't design an encounter to be a TPK and never have. I wouldn't design encounters for first-level characters to be 'one of you will die' dangerous. But if the GM is out to provide a moderately challenging first day of adventure, four wizards are very dependent on favourable dice for success and survival.
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... With a party of four wizards, you have to have a GM that goes out of the way to design encounters which won't TPK them.
**summons Troll**
...ummm... then those 4 players need to go back to Wizard school or something, or they are new to d20 RPG and should learn to drive on a nice & safe Volvo, not a Mazerrati.
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**banishes Troll**
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...seriously though, 4 wizards at level 1 is mostly only hard on newer players to this system (as in specific system mastery, even if they are veterans of RP in general)... unless you are playing with severe spell book restrictions, Words of Power instead of normal magic, or something else unusual.
There's a lot of specific examples in 4 Wizards Party thread.
This is not that thread. This is Most Well Rounded... which, as has been pointed out, is actually 4 female Bloatmages.
Most. Well. Rounded.
Big. Bloatmage. Wizard.
Fear the Four BBW's!!
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**smacks down the Troll that snuck out again**
. With a party of four wizards, you have to have a GM that goes out of the way to design encounters which won't TPK them.
And this is what happens with DM's in general at all levels with wizards/arcane casters.... theyre very nice to them
If I had a penny for every encounter where the wizard stood at the back and just cast without interference.....
Decent RP'd archers should make mincemeat out of casters..... let alone squishy D6 ones
Yeah, a barbarian with Str 14 rages to Str 18, and with a 2-handed weapon, does +6 damage on a successful hit--which is the maximized hit die of squishy wizard-types. Then add in the variable bit from the weapon (2d4 falchion, 1d12 great axe, 2d6 greatsword, 1d10 glaive), and it, most likely, will one-shot the wizard. Even with Toughness, favored class hit point, and 18 Con, it's possible to one-shot with a raging barbarian. And that barbarian doesn't even need to use Power Attack! Which the barbarian would likely use against someone wearing no armor or shield.
No wonder I never play arcane types... Well, maybe a magus... With a 1st level dip in barbarian....
:-P
Yeah, a barbarian with Str 14 rages to Str 18, and with a 2-handed weapon, does +6 damage on a successful hit--which is the maximized hit die of squishy wizard-types. Then add in the variable bit from the weapon (2d4 falchion, 1d12 great axe, 2d6 greatsword, 1d10 glaive), and it, most likely, will one-shot the wizard. Even with Toughness, favored class hit point, and 18 Con, it's possible to one-shot with a raging barbarian. And that barbarian doesn't even need to use Power Attack! Which the barbarian would likely use against someone wearing no armor or shield.
No wonder I never play arcane types... Well, maybe a magus... With a 1st level dip in barbarian....
:-P
+6 Damamge plus another 7 from the average damage of a Greatsword is likely to defeat many d8 opponents in one go as well. And a high roll can drop most builds. That's why low levels are often referred to as "rocket tag". Still one Wizard dropping unconscious is to be expected in swingy low level fights. The important thing it having enough HP to not die outright, which they do.
+6 Damamge plus another 7 from the average damage of a Greatsword is likely to defeat many d8 opponents in one go as well. And a high roll can drop most builds. That's why low levels are often referred to as "rocket tag". Still one Wizard dropping unconscious is to be expected in swingy low level fights. The important thing it having enough HP to not die outright, which they do.Yeah, a barbarian with Str 14 rages to Str 18, and with a 2-handed weapon, does +6 damage on a successful hit--which is the maximized hit die of squishy wizard-types. Then add in the variable bit from the weapon (2d4 falchion, 1d12 great axe, 2d6 greatsword, 1d10 glaive), and it, most likely, will one-shot the wizard. Even with Toughness, favored class hit point, and 18 Con, it's possible to one-shot with a raging barbarian. And that barbarian doesn't even need to use Power Attack! Which the barbarian would likely use against someone wearing no armor or shield.
No wonder I never play arcane types... Well, maybe a magus... With a 1st level dip in barbarian....
:-P
True that! :-D
druid, wizard, cleric and a witch. got all bases covered.