Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Not at my table. A flash drive won't connect to my iPad, and I don't bring a laptop. It is incumbent upon you to provide me the document in a format I can use. That's YOUR responsbility. It is not mine to provide you the means to view or translate that document.I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
Seconded, my tablet can't read flash drives unless I bring a special cable, and frankly I usually need my tablet to run the scenario...
EDTI: If I know someone has a disability... well that might be another story.
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I just keep all my PDFs on a Flash Drive.
If they want to check, they can just use their laptop/ipad/etc, and look it up.
I know you've since clarified, but I don't know why you expect the GM to carry around their laptop/ipad/etc when you don't expect yourself to carry around the same thing. Your flash drive doesn't help me look stuff up for you when I bring my books with me..
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1. The rules as put forth by Paizo don't include these as legal sources and never have.
This is not an argument that doing so would be better.
2. Not all locations have internet access/reliable cell phone coverage
Oh come on, I can literally throw a stone into a cornfield from where I game and we can get net access.
3. PFSRD only includes stuff from the RPG line lus the Technology guide, not all material.
4. d20 has licensing issues that don't allow for somethings to be correctly input into their system up to and including the names of some feats and traits. As well as being a 3rd party source that may or may not be right.
5. Nethys while extremely good and well maintained still occasionally gets things wrong.
If perfection were required for a rules source printed materials wouldn't be allowed either. Many printed sources are out of date, errata'd, updated, or superceded by newer materials. A fair standard would be accurate enough and look it up later. Its a game, not brain surgery. More importantly its a game so incredibly easy to win (witch, slumberhex) that someone bouncing crazy combos off of each other is probably doing it to have fun, not to win.
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Large convention centers, if they offer wi-fi services, will charge people an arm and a leg to use those services (case in point, I believe Gencon is 15 or so a day to use wifi and it's fairly craptacular).
Even if you have wifi, it may not always be reliable -- con in Michigan we had free wi-fi .. took about 20 minutes to load a web page and even longer to navigate to where you wanted to look.
Hauling books is a pain, I will agree, but for any hobby there is a price. If you don't want to haul your books, then pay the price of pdfs and a pdf reader. If you don't want to pay that price, then you'll pay the price and haul the books with you.
Pay someone to carry your bags for you? If you work it right it could cost less than the cost of PDFs, and you have someone to secure lunch/dinner for you, deal with checking you in at conventions and otherwise do things for you. Hirings aren't just for in game!
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Pay someone to carry your bags for you? If you work it right it could cost less than the cost of PDFs, and you have someone to secure lunch/dinner for you, deal with checking you in at conventions and otherwise do things for you. Hirings aren't just for in game!
Not really a cost effective option when you're going on public transport, since i'd have to buy a guy at 3-4 different stops.
Pay someone to carry your bags for you? If you work it right it could cost less than the cost of PDFs, and you have someone to secure lunch/dinner for you, deal with checking you in at conventions and otherwise do things for you. Hirings aren't just for in game!Not really a cost effective option when you're going on public transport, since i'd have to buy a guy at 3-4 different stops.
This is why I had children. They work for food.
As an aside, I'm not being glib about this sort of thing. Often there are people going to the same convention or event or game store for PFS that you are. They may be willing to help out with baggage, give rides, and so on.
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Besides, most Cons I have been to sell those bars of soap with dice embedded in the middle of them to 'encourage' gamers to use the soap.
Non Sequitur here, but that seems like a really stupid idea. What happens when the dice falls out in the shower, you don't see it, slip on it, and get hurt?
Anyways, on the subject of books, OP is clearly in "The exception to the rule" category. I'd bring it up with the DM at the session itself and see what they think.
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Besides, most Cons I have been to sell those bars of soap with dice embedded in the middle of them to 'encourage' gamers to use the soap.Non Sequitur here, but that seems like a really stupid idea. What happens when the dice falls out in the shower, you don't see it, slip on it, and get hurt?
Anyways, on the subject of books, OP is clearly in "The exception to the rule" category. I'd bring it up with the DM at the session itself and see what they think.
They use d4s so there's no slipping and falling. You just stab yourself in the foot instead.
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If we're getting all rules-lawyery on this subject, please note that the Additional Resources page requires that a player bring "a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it". It doesn't say anything about a requirement for the PDF to be viewable.
How would the DM know it was name watermarked if they can't view it?
Also, one could bring a microSD card instead of a flash drive -- assuming anyone let you plug it into anything. Mine at least come with adapters and work on my tablet, or a phone, or a laptop.
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Also, one could bring a microSD card instead of a flash drive -- assuming anyone let you plug it into anything. Mine at least come with adapters and work on my tablet, or a phone, or a laptop.
My opinion is, that if you are going to bring all your pdfs on something, then you'd better be able to bring the thing to plug it into. My tablet is for my use, not for use of those at the table. So when you bring your sd card, or you flash drive, and you ask to borrow my electronics, the answer will be no...
Keep that in mind; Most people are not going to share their electronics as they are expensive and there is the chance that those with grubby paws will drop and break them.
Oh I completely agree. Just tossing out other options for those few that would allow the option. I still believe in a hireling, or a rolling bag/suitcase, or a well constructed backpack for your carrying needs. People manage to travel through airports and other locations for business with a weighty load every day, so it is doable. Frustrating, perhaps, but doable.
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Just a few random comments:
On wireless. The local store I usually play & GM at does not have any sort of public WiFi available. There are several secured networks visible, but they usually have the name of some other store/facility on them, like the one for the car repair place next door, and such.
If I need wireless at the store, I use my own hotspot, but there are several issues with that, including:
Service is ending in a few months.
Service is not always reliable in that end of town.
I use it while travelling there and back, so need to have power left for the "back" part, so the 90+ minutes on the bus home are not staring out the window at blackness. Same holds true for my 7" tablet, so I have something to use with the WiFi... Especially while waiting the 40 minutes between buses at that time of night...
I do sympathize, although my handicaps are different and fairly mild.
For carrying stuff, I use a rolling backpack, although I am having to look at a replacement for it, as it is coming apart. I only bring two hardcovers with me, CRB and Bestiary 1, all else is PDF, accessible on my tablet. But, as one of the local GMs, and prolific player, I usually have quite a bot of incidental stuff in my backpack, depending on my role that day.
GM adds some small boxes with minis in them, the scenario and chronicles, my combat pad, etc.
Player is character folios for PC or PCs of interest for the game.
Both have my box of dice, my card box of condition & buff cards, a small pad of paper, my GtPFSOP, a copy of the Additional Resources, my folder of pregens (3 levels, 24 pregens, 2 copies), my two PC folios for my reroll and lend out, etc.,
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If we're getting all rules-lawyery on this subject, please note that the Additional Resources page requires that a player bring "a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it". It doesn't say anything about a requirement for the PDF to be viewable.
This thread makes me sad, and comments like this make me even sadder. If this is the attitude of people who can't be bothered to print out a PDF of the pages their character uses, then I am really not interested in discussing the matter further.
Bring a book. Bring a watermarked PDF. Play Core. Those are your options.
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If we're getting all rules-lawyery on this subject, please note that the Additional Resources page requires that a player bring "a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it". It doesn't say anything about a requirement for the PDF to be viewable.This thread makes me sad, and comments like this make me even sadder. If this is the attitude of people who can't be bothered to print out a PDF of the pages their character uses, then I am really not interested in discussing the matter further.
Bring a book. Bring a watermarked PDF. Play Core. Those are your options.
I don't disagree with your comment about the previous comment. But your dismissal of the overall subject doesn't help anyone. Personally I'm fine with the way the rules are--no one is arguing about what the current options are. But there is absolutely no reason civil discussion can't be had about finding a way to improve the situation for those that would like to see a difference in the current standard.
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I don't disagree with your comment about the previous comment. But your dismissal of the overall subject doesn't help anyone. Personally I'm fine with the way the rules are--no one is arguing about what the current options are. But there is absolutely no reason civil discussion can't be had about finding a way to improve the situation for those that would like to see a difference in the current standard.If we're getting all rules-lawyery on this subject, please note that the Additional Resources page requires that a player bring "a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of it". It doesn't say anything about a requirement for the PDF to be viewable.This thread makes me sad, and comments like this make me even sadder. If this is the attitude of people who can't be bothered to print out a PDF of the pages their character uses, then I am really not interested in discussing the matter further.
Bring a book. Bring a watermarked PDF. Play Core. Those are your options.
The problem I see is that all the different proposals seem to be pushing the onus of providing resources onto the GM. Be it providing a physical resource or using some sort of pdf writer ..
If there was a way to stay within the legalities that Paizo has laid out, that doesn't add extra work to GMs and Coordinators who are already super busy I'm sure people would be more than willing to look at it and discuss it.
But that proposal needs to have those two aspects for, at least, me to even want to consider it.
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The problem I see is that all the different proposals seem to be pushing the onus of providing resources onto the GM. Be it providing a physical resource or using some sort of pdf writer ..
If there was a way to stay within the legalities that Paizo has laid out, that doesn't add extra work to GMs and Coordinators who are already super busy I'm sure people would be more than willing to look at it and discuss it.
But that proposal needs to have those two aspects for, at least, me to even want to consider it.
I've only seen one post here that could even be slightly misconstrued as "expecting the GM to provide the source materials". (and no one has suggested using a pdf writer except to say that watermarks can be faked).
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I've only seen one post here that could even be slightly misconstrued as "expecting the GM to provide the source materials". (and no one has suggested using a pdf writer except to say that watermarks can be faked).The problem I see is that all the different proposals seem to be pushing the onus of providing resources onto the GM. Be it providing a physical resource or using some sort of pdf writer ..
If there was a way to stay within the legalities that Paizo has laid out, that doesn't add extra work to GMs and Coordinators who are already super busy I'm sure people would be more than willing to look at it and discuss it.
But that proposal needs to have those two aspects for, at least, me to even want to consider it.
Then you haven't read back far enough ... This topic has been discussed for years .. debated for years... Unless there is a new miraculous revelation on how to make this work for both sides, I don't see a reason to change how things currently are
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Then you haven't read back far enough ... This topic has been discussed for years .. debated for years... Unless there is a new miraculous revelation on how to make this work for both sides, I don't see a reason to change how things currently areI've only seen one post here that could even be slightly misconstrued as "expecting the GM to provide the source materials". (and no one has suggested using a pdf writer except to say that watermarks can be faked).The problem I see is that all the different proposals seem to be pushing the onus of providing resources onto the GM. Be it providing a physical resource or using some sort of pdf writer ..
If there was a way to stay within the legalities that Paizo has laid out, that doesn't add extra work to GMs and Coordinators who are already super busy I'm sure people would be more than willing to look at it and discuss it.
But that proposal needs to have those two aspects for, at least, me to even want to consider it.
I'm sorry if you expected me to read discussions outside of this discussion so that I can negatively react to this discussion. I would never expect a GM to bring my source materials no matter what the outcome is. I can't think of a single solution in which a pdf writer would be in any way helpful or necessary at all.
What the OP wants is a way to be able to own the source books (as in actual physical books) without having to carry around an encylopedia's worth of books (obviously without having to purchase something separate--aka pdfs). Anyone suggesting either of the two above-mentioned points obviously isn't bringing anything worthwhile to the discussion, but that doesn't mean the discussion as a whole isn't worth having. And simply because there are current rules that preclude what the OP is asking also doesn't mean the discussion is null and void. Obviously those rules are in place, if they weren't then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
p.s. I don't mind having to bring my books with me. Yes, I carry around a lot of books and I'm ok with it. That doesn't mean I wouldn't be ok with not having to carry those books around.
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Then you haven't read back far enough ... This topic has been discussed for years .. debated for years... Unless there is a new miraculous revelation on how to make this work for both sides, I don't see a reason to change how things currently areI've only seen one post here that could even be slightly misconstrued as "expecting the GM to provide the source materials". (and no one has suggested using a pdf writer except to say that watermarks can be faked).The problem I see is that all the different proposals seem to be pushing the onus of providing resources onto the GM. Be it providing a physical resource or using some sort of pdf writer ..
If there was a way to stay within the legalities that Paizo has laid out, that doesn't add extra work to GMs and Coordinators who are already super busy I'm sure people would be more than willing to look at it and discuss it.
But that proposal needs to have those two aspects for, at least, me to even want to consider it.
I'm sorry if you expected me to read discussions outside of this discussion so that I can negatively react to this discussion. I would never expect a GM to bring my source materials no matter what the outcome is. I can't think of a single solution in which a pdf writer would be in any way helpful or necessary at all.
What the OP wants is a way to be able to own the source books (as in actual physical books) without having to carry around an encylopedia's worth of books (obviously without having to purchase something separate--aka pdfs). Anyone suggesting either of the two above-mentioned points obviously isn't bringing anything worthwhile to the discussion, but that doesn't mean the discussion as a whole isn't worth having. And simply because there are current rules that preclude what the OP is asking also doesn't mean the discussion is null and void. Obviously those rules are in place, if they weren't then we wouldn't be...
And if the player doesn't want to carry all their resources .. who then provides them if there is a question? Are the GMs expected to provide resources for all the players at their table?
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Obviously not. Between the two of us it doesn't seem like I'm the one that's not reading the conversation. The crux of the issue is "Is there a way for a player to provide the rules if he owns only physical books without having to carry those books around?"
One example of a way this could be done is to photocopy the necessary materials from said books. Obviously this isn't currently legal.
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Obviously not. Between the two of us it doesn't seem like I'm the one that's not reading the conversation. The rux of the issue is "Is there a way for a player to provide the rules if he owns only physical books without having to carry those books around?"
One example of a way this could be done is to photocopy the necessary materials from said books. Obviously this isn't currently legal.
I've been a part of the previous 6 or 7 conversations .. so I'm well aware of what is wanted. Unfortunately nothing that has ever been said in those conversations is any different than what is being said in this one.
I will note .. in this conversation .. and in previous ones .. the lines between want and not want are generally divided between player and GM .. respectively
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Honestly it sounds like the more sensible thing for people who have this problem to do is to stop buying hard cover books and only buy PDFs.
I know people like hardcover books because they're nice and because it helps supports FLGSs (I usually buy PDFs and hardcovers myself), but if Paizo is not going to make it easier for customers who buy these more expensive books to participate, then people should consider not buying these books.
Vote with your dollars and tell Paizo that you think their support is insufficient. That's really the best you can do.
Complaining here on a yearly basis during convention season has not really helped. The rules as they are address the concerns of the campaign with regards to enforcing rules and proving ownership of sources. At this point in time, book sales are not a problem that needs to be considered with this rule.
EDIT: So no one feels tempted to lecture me about how I can work around this problem, I already buy the hard cover books and the PDFs.
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Obviously not. Between the two of us it doesn't seem like I'm the one that's not reading the conversation. The rux of the issue is "Is there a way for a player to provide the rules if he owns only physical books without having to carry those books around?"
One example of a way this could be done is to photocopy the necessary materials from said books. Obviously this isn't currently legal.
I've been a part of the previous 6 or 7 conversations .. so I'm well aware of what is wanted. Unfortunately nothing that has ever been said in those conversations is any different than what is being said in this one.
I will note .. in this conversation .. and in previous ones .. the lines between want and not want are generally divided between player and GM .. respectively
False dichotomy.
As a GM I can use naught but photocopies to my dark little heart's content and no one will bat an eye.As a player, it's quite a bit different because for some strange reason it's viewed as harder to get a doctored .pdf than a doctored photocopy.
-TimD
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I realize this may be heresy, but what about the idea of including (for free or at a reduced price) the watermarked pdf when someone purchases a hard copy of the reference material? This could either be offered directly through Paizo (easiest and would offer incentive for people to purchase from Paizo) or via a one-time use code in the material when purchased from a flgs (this would require a few extra steps to acquire the pdf). That way a person can support both Paizo and their flgs. Frog God Games does this with their products (you may purchase the hard copy/free pdf combination or the pdf only) and it seems to work very well. Just a thought.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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This could either be offered directly through Paizo (easiest and would offer incentive for people to purchase from Paizo)
They do this already. If you have a subscription to a product line, the send you a free pdf when the hard copy book ships.
Unique Product codes are hard to do because then you need a whole support team to deal with people stealing product codes from books on the shelf to get the pdf for free
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This could either be offered directly through Paizo (easiest and would offer incentive for people to purchase from Paizo)They do this already. If you have a subscription to a product line, the send you a free pdf when the hard copy book ships.
Unique Product codes are hard to do because then you need a whole support team to deal with people stealing product codes from books on the shelf to get the pdf for free
I agree with you on the code issue as it would require some overhead.
Regarding the subscription, some people may not want to participate in that as they may feel they are being locked in to buy products. My idea was specifically for those individuals who choose not to subscribe.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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This could either be offered directly through Paizo (easiest and would offer incentive for people to purchase from Paizo)They do this already. If you have a subscription to a product line, the send you a free pdf when the hard copy book ships.
Unique Product codes are hard to do because then you need a whole support team to deal with people stealing product codes from books on the shelf to get the pdf for free
I agree with you on the code issue as it would require some overhead.
Regarding the subscription, some people may not want to participate in that as they may feel they are being locked in to buy products. My idea was specifically for those individuals who choose not to subscribe.
Except that they are already using it as an incentive to push people to lock in on whole product lines. So offering it to everyone would defeat the purpose of that incentive.
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What if Paizo offered some sort of book registration for PFS? You take your books to a LGS. The game stores have sheets of labels with registration numbers that are placed in a standard position on the book, like top of the inside left cover. Then the store fills out a registration online tying the Name of the book and the registration number to your PFS number. Then, from our account page, we can have a list of all hard copy titles we've registered like we currently have for PDFs. Then we can print that page out to prove ownership. You could also use photocopies of the material you use for your character as long as it comes from a registered book. I dunno, it's just a rough idea, but I could see something like that working. The LGS could even charge like a dollar per registration. I don't think people would mind paying for the convenience of not having to lug tons of books around.
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What if Paizo offered some sort of book registration for PFS? You take your books to a LGS. The game stores have sheets of labels with registration numbers that are placed in a standard position on the book, like top of the inside left cover. Then the store fills out a registration online tying the Name of the book and the registration number to your PFS number. Then, from our account page, we can have a list of all hard copy titles we've registered like we currently have for PDFs. Then we can print that page out to prove ownership. You could also use photocopies of the material you use for your character as long as it comes from a registered book. I dunno, it's just a rough idea, but I could see something like that working. The LGS could even charge like a dollar per registration. I don't think people would mind paying for the convenience of not having to lug tons of books around.
Again, this places the burden on someone OTHER than the owner of the book. In this case, the LGS would bear the burden of doing the work of registering the book, keep a sheet of labels, etc. For that reason alone I would oppose it - anything that transfers the responsibility from the player to some other entity is unlikely to get my support (and many others, I would imagine.)
But, I will say this - your idea is beyond just saying, "let us bring photocopies." It really tries to solve this issue in a way that kills 2 birds with one stone, and I very much appreciate that.
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What if Paizo offered some sort of book registration for PFS? You take your books to a LGS. The game stores have sheets of labels with registration numbers that are placed in a standard position on the book, like top of the inside left cover. Then the store fills out a registration online tying the Name of the book and the registration number to your PFS number. Then, from our account page, we can have a list of all hard copy titles we've registered like we currently have for PDFs. Then we can print that page out to prove ownership. You could also use photocopies of the material you use for your character as long as it comes from a registered book. I dunno, it's just a rough idea, but I could see something like that working. The LGS could even charge like a dollar per registration. I don't think people would mind paying for the convenience of not having to lug tons of books around.Again, this places the burden on someone OTHER than the owner of the book. In this case, the LGS would bear the burden of doing the work of registering the book, keep a sheet of labels, etc. For that reason alone I would oppose it - anything that transfers the responsibility from the player to some other entity is unlikely to get my support (and many others, I would imagine.)
But, I will say this - your idea is beyond just saying, "let us bring photocopies." It really tries to solve this issue in a way that kills 2 birds with one stone, and I very much appreciate that.
Thank you! I tried to come up with a solution that benefits everyone. I don't actually see this as placing a burdon on the stores. On the contrary, it's giving them something else to make money on! Assuming the registration site was well designed and easy to use, we're talking about a process that would take less than a minute to complete and the store pockets an extra buck or two. Heck, they could charge whatever they wanted as long as it was still cheaper than just buying a PDF version of the book. It's an add on they could suggest with every book sold and a way to make money off products that have already been sold. I don't see this as anything but a win for the stores.
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This could either be offered directly through Paizo (easiest and would offer incentive for people to purchase from Paizo)They do this already. If you have a subscription to a product line, the send you a free pdf when the hard copy book ships.
Unique Product codes are hard to do because then you need a whole support team to deal with people stealing product codes from books on the shelf to get the pdf for free
I agree with you on the code issue as it would require some overhead.
Regarding the subscription, some people may not want to participate in that as they may feel they are being locked in to buy products. My idea was specifically for those individuals who choose not to subscribe.
The "free" price of the pdf is counteracted by the price of shipping.
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2) Paizo could develop a downloadable version of the PRD that is PFS legal. This eliminates the "wifi not working" issue. I would imagine Paizo could charge a monthly fee for this service - and anyone that paid it could be considered to "own" all the content therein - likely limited to the hardback content currently in the PRD.
As I've linked to recently, Erik Mona has stated that the reason the Pathfinder RPG PDFs are only $9.99 (a ridiculously cheap price for the amount of content) is to make it feasible for non-subscribers to buy both the hardcover and the PDF without being gouged for paying twice the cover price.
I doubt you're going to get a monthly fee that's cheaper than paying $9.99 two or three times a year as player-focused hardcovers are released.
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Again: Why can't we just use a chronicle sheet system like the ones for the Pathfinder Tales novels?
Or... whenever you buy a book you could save the receipt and bring it with you to game. If the GM asks you to show them that rule: hand them a print out of that text (en verbatim)and if they ask for proof, show the receipt. -kidding about this part. >:P
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Again: Why can't we just use a chronicle sheet system like the ones for the Pathfinder Tales novels?Because the overhead it would generate for GMs/VOs would be prohibitive, as Additional Resources are used far more often than Pathfinder Tales.
Come to think of it; yes, you're right. :{
I can still enjoy P.T. chronicle sheets though.|
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Again: Why can't we just use a chronicle sheet system like the ones for the Pathfinder Tales novels?Because the overhead it would generate for GMs/VOs would be prohibitive, as Additional Resources are used far more often than Pathfinder Tales.
It wouldn't cost them any more time than it does now when they don't ask to see sources.
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It wouldn't cost them any more time than it does now when they don't ask to see sources.Again: Why can't we just use a chronicle sheet system like the ones for the Pathfinder Tales novels?Because the overhead it would generate for GMs/VOs would be prohibitive, as Additional Resources are used far more often than Pathfinder Tales.
I'm reasonably sure if people could bring these sorts of things, more GMs will be asking to verify them.
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I'm reasonably sure if people could bring these sorts of things, more GMs will be asking to verify them.It wouldn't cost them any more time than it does now when they don't ask to see sources.Again: Why can't we just use a chronicle sheet system like the ones for the Pathfinder Tales novels?Because the overhead it would generate for GMs/VOs would be prohibitive, as Additional Resources are used far more often than Pathfinder Tales.
And right now people don't bring anything and GMs don't ask to verify. It's a lose/lose no matter how you look at it.
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does this really come into play all that often outside of Cons
I've seen it at game days, and I myself have asked for materials from players. In many cases, when the player base is relatively the same, we get to know, generally, who has what resources, etc. But, we sometimes get new players, or we see someone with stuff they haven't used before.
I think it is true that it comes into play less for local and regular events than it does at conventions, but it does come into play now and again.