| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I am a long time PFS player, and as a result I have 5-10 characters using a variety of sources. Carrying all the books I use(8 hardcover, 4 pamphlet things, 1 small binder, plus my character binder) has become overwhelming. (I don't own a car)
I've been doing this for YEARS, just to follow the "you must provide source material" rule, and I can't keep bringing the books to every session anymore because it's simply not realistic.
Obviously a photograph wouldn't be enough, but something along those lines. Small portable or perhaps digital.
I acquired my own laptop recently, so a PDF would be ideal, but I've already spent hundreds of dollars on PRPG and am not intent on spending $50+ more to get copies of books I already have. So that isn't happening.
Are there an official rules about proof of ownership beyond the bring it with you/PDF rule?
|
There's someone in my area that modified a small piece of furniture and carries all of his stuff in it. Pretty much uses a four wheeled dolly to move it around, and it seems to work quite nicely for him. As for proof of having something, it's best to provide the PDFs or actual material. If the group you play with knows what material you have, then that makes it easy, until a question needs to be answered.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
|
If you always play at the same store or other venue, with the same people, by now they will know that you own everything.
Maybe make a system that you only bring the books once for a new character, the GM signs off that you own the material, and from then on only bring the books with the weird stuff?
For example: You make a new, first level monk. A normal one, and slap on some archetypes and get some feats from a splat book. You bring the core rulebook, the book that holds the archetype and the splat book to the first session. The GM then signs off that you own the core rulebook, and you only have to bring the other two books after that?
Its utilizing the honor system again, wich would be easy to implement if you have a regular PFS group.
No one answered my question...
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You need to have the physical books, a name watermarked PDF, or a printout from the PDF of the relevant pages. There is no exception to this.
My LGS actually has lockers now that you can cheaply rent to keep books in so you don't have to carry them around though I realize this isn't possible for every store.
Perhaps if you don't need every book only bring the ones you will need that night?
People made recommendations to help you because there are no additional rules for this beyond those found in the Guide to Organized Play.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's someone in my area that modified a small piece of furniture and carries all of his stuff in it. Pretty much uses a four wheeled dolly to move it around, and it seems to work quite nicely for him.
The OP doesn't have a car, and that doesn't sound like something suited for a bus or a multi mile walk
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been playing PFS for two years and the only time I've had any GM ask me to see a source material was day 1 of GenCON last year when the ACG first released and he wanted to make sure I wasn't still using the playtest version of the class (which I of course had).
I still try to bring my books with me when I play--even though I know I don't need to.
|
|
I personally just use an iPad with the PDFs on it, but another low space alternative is to have a binder with just the relevant pages from each PDF printed out for each character.
In other words, if the only thing your character needs from Ultimate Magic is a single feat, then you just need a print out of that specific page from a watermarked PDF of that feat.
If the only copies you have are the physical books then by the rules you do in fact need to have them with you.
It's worth noting that the PDFs are considerably cheaper than the hardcovers they would replace. All except Inner Sea Gods and Rise of the Runelords: Anniversary Edition are 10 bucks each. I understand that's not what you're looking for, but you could mostly add the hardcover PDFs for the amount of the upcoming Occult Adventures.
|
|
No one answered my question...
The answer is, no, there is no other proof of ownership rule. You need to have the book there and in readable form for the GM. At one point, photocopies were allowed, but due to abuse it was removed. Blame the cheaters for the fact that you have to carry books or buy extra PDFs.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No one answered my question...The answer is, no, there is no other proof of ownership rule. You need to have the book there and in readable form for the GM. At one point, photocopies were allowed, but due to abuse it was removed. Blame the cheaters for the fact that you have to carry books or buy extra PDFs.
As you have pointed out before, "Cheaters are gunna cheat." That does not mean the solution to cheating is blanket rules that punish the masses for the actions of a few. Paizo is not blameless in this. They may not have caused the problem, but they are the ones that chose the heavy handed solution to it.
|
|
I hate pushing people to PDFs, because that doesn't help the local game stores.
It's not "official", but I would probably accept a photo of you with the book and then scans or copies of whatever relevant pages as a reasonable compromise.
You should check with the local GMs/VOs where you play and see if they can come up with some suggestions to accommodate your situation.
|
|
I hate pushing people to PDFs, because that doesn't help the local game stores.
It's not "official", but I would probably accept a photo of you with the book and then scans or copies of whatever relevant pages as a reasonable compromise.
You should check with the local GMs/VOs where you play and see if they can come up with some suggestions to accommodate your situation.
If anyone were to make an earnest attempt to demonstrate proof of ownership I would likely accept it as cheaters simply aren't going to do that. Unfortunately, the PFS rules do not allow me to do that.
I find a milk crate carries almost all my books, so thats what i do for cons, and as as added bonus it gives me a mini table to set my things on next to my chair.
|
|
Are there an official rules about proof of ownership beyond the bring it with you/PDF rule?
No.
I hate pushing people to PDFs, because that doesn't help the local game stores.
It's not "official", but I would probably accept a photo of you with the book and then scans or copies of whatever relevant pages as a reasonable compromise.
You should check with the local GMs/VOs where you play and see if they can come up with some suggestions to accommodate your situation.
+1 to ^ (excepting I would never require someone to have to have themselves be photographed because that would be hypocritical of me)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I find a milk crate carries almost all my books, so thats what i do for cons, and as as added bonus it gives me a mini table to set my things on next to my chair.
Thats not very practical to walk half a mile to the bus station, put on the bus, take off the bus, walk half a mile to the con, walk half a mile to your hotel, walk half a mile back to the con, walk half a mile back to the bus....
|
|
I find a milk crate carries almost all my books, so thats what i do for cons, and as as added bonus it gives me a mini table to set my things on next to my chair.Thats not very practical to walk half a mile to the bus station, put on the bus, take off the bus, walk half a mile to the con, walk half a mile to your hotel, walk half a mile back to the con, walk half a mile back to the bus....
And let's not forget the additional luggage fees if you are traveling to a Con via airline.
|
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16
|
I had the same problem. Now, I only carry material I obtain from Player Companions. I never had a GM ask to see them, but I do hold up the books when explaining my character. I'm the kind of guy who likes to tell the GM upfront about any unusual aspects of my character. For example, I use spontaneous alchemy from the Alchemy Manual, which one of the few cases where crafting is legal.
I'm the kind of guy who likes to tell the GM upfront about any unusual aspects of my character.
I do that too. For my rogue with Trap Spotter I made a little index card for the GM to use that includes my characters perception for traps that also the quoted ability from the CR. Thats just one example.
Blame the cheaters for the fact that you have to carry books or buy extra PDFs.
I want to meet you half way with this, but I cannot. I cant accept "other people cheat and you pay the price" as a simple premise because its not that simple.
I always try to make all my abilities crystal clear and also provide resources for the GM. I follow the rules. Im almost never asked for the source material, but I bring it anyway because the rules say to.
If the rules are going to punish me for having more material that seems pretty ass-backwards. Im just saying.
|
|
I'm the kind of guy who likes to tell the GM upfront about any unusual aspects of my character.I do that too. For my rogue with Trap Spotter I made a little index card for the GM to use that includes my characters perception for traps that also the quoted ability from the CR. Thats just one example.
Blame the cheaters for the fact that you have to carry books or buy extra PDFs.I want to meet you half way with this, but I cannot. I cant accept "other people cheat and you pay the price" as a simple premise because its not that simple.
I always try to make all my abilities crystal clear and also provide resources for the GM. I follow the rules. Im almost never asked for the source material, but I bring it anyway because the rules say to.
If the rules are going to punish me for having more material that seems pretty ass-backwards. Im just saying.
Not to mention that, given the current level of enforcement, the rule punishes those who follow it far more than it punishes those who don't.
|
|
I generally run with an established group here, so I'm a bit more lax. As long as I personally have access to the given material, I'm okay with it (and with HeroLab, it's easy to do so). If I -don't- have access, then yes, I want someone to bring in the material just so I can read it over and understand. I see no point in making someone carry tons of books for every session though.
If the rules are going to punish me for having more material that seems pretty ass-backwards. Im just saying.
Not to mention that, given the current level of enforcement, the rule punishes those who follow it far more than it punishes those who don't.
That... is a really good point. The only offset of it is that if someone doesnt follow it, they get totally screwed when caught. But that seems like entirely the wrong intent of how ANY rule shod be made enforced.
I stayed away from this in the OP, but Im going to be candid and admit that I HATE this rule. It punishes veteran players by forcing them to bring everything for their characters(especially those with multiple characters that play whatever the party needs), and it puts new players at a disadvantage when they cant find/afford the Advanced Players Guide, the Ultimate Magic and Absurdly Broken Adventure Path #17.
It also creates a warped view of "cheating". According to this rule, using perfectly legal builds following PFS regulations is "cheating" if the player doesnt have ALL the source material they wanted to use. The right feats can make or break a build, and if you invest in a book for a feature and that feature is banned, you feel cheated.
Occasionally, I see new players come to PFS, have a good time, then get told that they cant even play a non-pregen without investing $40 into a Core Rulebook, and I never see them again.
Additionally, I have never been to a session in which there wasnt someone with internet. Often when there is a question of rules there are three people looking it up on their phones at the same time. I understand that the GM needs to be able to check abilities every now and then but access to them is rarely the actual problem. If the player knows they're doing, they should know the source/ability nane. Them having NO IDEA where their abilities came from is a small exception, and generally players like that are problematic for other reasons already.
Sorry, I went on for a bit long there. Im thinking my beef with this rule might deserve a thread of its own considering there are no established solutions to my original question.
|
|
Occasionally, I see new players come to PFS, have a good time, then get told that they cant even play a non-pregen without investing $40 into a Core Rulebook, and I never see them again.
It might be in the interest of everyone to remember the Core Assumption and not scare the new guy away.
Every player is assumed to have the core rulebook, the society field guide, and the guide to organized play. GMs don't have to check for these materials when someone sits down.
Occasionally, I see new players come to PFS, have a good time, then get told that they cant even play a non-pregen without investing $40 into a Core Rulebook, and I never see them again.It might be in the interest of everyone to remember the Core Assumption and not scare the new guy away.
Every player is assumed to have the core rulebook, the society field guide, and the guide to organized play. GMs don't have to check for these materials when someone sits down.
That was from a while ago, to be honest. It hasnt happened recently. In further attempt to lay out my situation, I haven't played PFS in over a year. I left because there were problems with the system that made me unable to enjoy my time there anymore. I want to get back into it, so I've been making many threads hoping to address these problems.
|
|
That was from a while ago, to be honest. It hasnt happened recently. In further attempt to lay out my situation, I haven't played PFS in over a year. I left because there were problems with the system that made me unable to enjoy my time there anymore. I want to get back into it, so I've been making many threads hoping to address these problems.Occasionally, I see new players come to PFS, have a good time, then get told that they cant even play a non-pregen without investing $40 into a Core Rulebook, and I never see them again.It might be in the interest of everyone to remember the Core Assumption and not scare the new guy away.
Every player is assumed to have the core rulebook, the society field guide, and the guide to organized play. GMs don't have to check for these materials when someone sits down.
Well, I am not sure the lack of intoxication rules in PF is all that important, but I think this issue is. I personally think the current rules regarding "legal" characters are bad rules as they fail to accomplish what they were designed to do, and thus are more detrimental to PFS than they are beneficial.
|
|
Bring the guide. Soap is cheap.Even with most of my library on PDFs taking public transport to cons means i have either enough bag space for my inner sea world guide or the soap.
Choose carefully.
Besides, most Cons I have been to sell those bars of soap with dice embedded in the middle of them to 'encourage' gamers to use the soap.
Besides, most Cons I have been to sell those bars of soap with dice embedded in the middle of them to 'encourage' gamers to use the soap.
I wish...
I could imagine an April Fools update to Addition Resources that makes bathing daily required to play and bans all magical items and classes under the explanation that magic doesn't add enough the game world.
|
|
If the rules are going to punish me for having more material that seems pretty ass-backwards. Im just saying.Not to mention that, given the current level of enforcement, the rule punishes those who follow it far more than it punishes those who don't.That... is a really good point. The only offset of it is that if someone doesnt follow it, they get totally screwed when caught. But that seems like entirely the wrong intent of how ANY rule shod be made enforced.
Do they really get totally screwed if caught? Have you ever witnessed (or even heard of) someone being forced to leave the table (or reported up the chain) for not bringing correct source materials?
The worst I have ever seen is people being told to "make sure you bring it next time." And that's only from those few times anyone actually checked.
|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
While the answer to your question is no, what if the VOs and high stars GM have the ability to "sign off" on what resources a player has?
A player would need to show the correct person their resources, likely books, that is tracked on a forum similar to the tracking sheet. Then the player could bring copies of the needed areas of their books and the official form to show ownership. This would need to be done at least once a year. And until it is signed off, any new books would have to be carried with the player.
PDFs are already taken care of so that is not really an issue.
Workable? Is this something we, as a player base, could get into the rules for PFS?
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
If the rules are going to punish me for having more material that seems pretty ass-backwards. Im just saying.Not to mention that, given the current level of enforcement, the rule punishes those who follow it far more than it punishes those who don't.That... is a really good point. The only offset of it is that if someone doesnt follow it, they get totally screwed when caught. But that seems like entirely the wrong intent of how ANY rule shod be made enforced.
Do they really get totally screwed if caught? Have you ever witnessed (or even heard of) someone being forced to leave the table (or reported up the chain) for not bringing correct source materials?
I believe some people in our area have been told they would not be allowed to use snowball that game because they did not have a source with them. They could play their character without that spell, or they could play a pregen. Ever since then, everyone who brings snowball is careful to show their source at the beginning of game.
|
|
Do they really get totally screwed if caught? Have you ever witnessed (or even heard of) someone being forced to leave the table (or reported up the chain) for not bringing correct source materials?
We had a player once that did not bring any of the source books, in fact he did not even own any of them. All he had was HeroLabs that his other city he played at allowed him to use. I would not allow it so during the game if anything he used we did not have a source for at the table he was not allow to use it. He still played though I did not kick him off the table.
Do they really get totally screwed if caught? Have you ever witnessed (or even heard of) someone being forced to leave the table (or reported up the chain) for not bringing correct source materials?
I can only say this for myself, but it's much more frequent and likely to get caught before the game starts. I have been asked by GMs half a dozen times about abilities/items, the most frequent being Weapon Cords(which have been errated since then and are not nearly as good) and Misfortune(which I can't blame them for because it's really broken/meta). Since I have been asked that frequently, I assumed it was normal for everyone to get asked now and then. If I didn't have my source material, it would have been problematic. But in the case of what I have observed for other people...
The worst I have ever seen is people being told to "make sure you bring it next time." And that's only from those few times anyone actually checked.
...it's usually this^. Again, I follow these rules because they are the rules. I understand that it's easier to go without the material, but why should I get to choose which cases apply and which don't? Should I use utterly broken third party content? "Fix" chronicle sheets I feel are unfair? Adjust pre-gens? Should I ignore the retraining rules? etc.
As much as I hate this rule(and boy do I), I respect my venture officers and PFS at large and thus I follow the rules without exception. I guess when I am forced to make an exception for the sake of realism, such as now, I will...
...but should I really have to? If some of the rules are so blatantly impractical that I have to not follow them in order to attend/play, why should I be punished, even a little, if I'm caught intentionally ignoring them? This is the kind of rule that I feel really needs to be fixed.
I for one always ask. and have seen a lot of GMs ask.
|
I hate pushing people to PDFs, because that doesn't help the local game stores.
Yeah, the last time I told someone that they could always get the PDFs at the Paizo website for $10, I got the nastiest look from the store owner. Then when they went out of business a few months later I felt extra bad.
One thing that I do is put together a "pick list" for each of my characters, so that I only have to bring the books for the particular character I'm playing that day. That's greatly cut down on what I have to carry.
|
|
I for one always ask. and have seen a lot of GMs ask.This seems to be a regional thing. But even at GenCon I have only been asked once (and, wouldn't you know it, that was for Snowball too).
It is much harder to enforce at conventions. Most of the time at conventions if they use something I don't know I will ask for the book, if they happen not to have it I will look it up on my PDFS. You just don't have time to deal with something like this at a convention.
|
|
The rules need to be available to the GM. The GM can't be expected to know your character, and needs to be able to check the book if they want to. If there was a way of 1) proving ownership, so Paizo gets the marketing out of PfS that they want, and 2) have the rules easily available for the GM to reference, that would be great. Unfortunately, the only way they've come up with to do this is to have the player bring the rules.
Some combination of a sign-off by a VO on ownership, coupled with the allowance of an online rules source at the table, would fix the issue - but that's the probelm. Paizo's PRD doesn't contain Golarion materials; the two major online PRDs have errors since they can't be official; Hero Labs also has errors. So you really need a Paizo document with the rules, which only exists in the actual book PDFs.
I realize it's an issue, but there is no solution that addresses both the "too many books" issue and Paizo's needs for the campaign.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
No one answered my question...
The official clear cut answer is that the rule is the rule.
While I am sympathetic to the situation, that is the current, rule.
Now, you might labor to get the rule changed, or find some way to help yourself and others in that situation, but frankly that is not the question you asked.
|
Venture-Captain, Conventions—PaizoCon
|
I've considered the VO sign off idea too, but the big question I keep coming back to is "How does the VO know they actually own the book? What if I just borrowed it from a friend and got the VO to sign off on it?" I realize not many people are going to do this, but I'm sure it's an issue that's been brought up. I do think this is probably the easiest solution. If you have a VO near you.
As for finding rules on-line, the Archives of Nethys does a good job of having all the character options and a label of what's PFS legal. Though it does lack specific rules, but that wasn't the intention of the site.
Regardless of what campaign leadership decides to do, there's always going to be cheaters or people who don't thoroughly enforce rules.