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So we have been having a discussion over in this thread about the dual cursed Oracle revelation, misfortune.
As written:
Misfortune (Ex): At 1st level, as an immediate action, you can force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed. The creature must take the result of the reroll, even if it’s worse than the original roll. Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day.
The issues:
1. If you are a DM who uses a screen, the player isn't going to know what the rolls are in order to decide to ask for a re-roll or not. If this is intended or not, it changes things greatly.
2. As written, a player can basically force a re-roll of every failed SoS roll, since it isn't a per day cap, but a per creature cap. Every boss fight, every mook, all can be made to re-roll a successful save to see if they will instead fail. A deadly combo.
So perhaps the Devs can weigh in on the intended application given the above issues.
This is one reason I hate in-game powers that require meta-game knowledge.
I read this as "wait until the creature rolls a d20 with the result in view but don't reveal the result of the roll and then decide whether to force a reroll of the die."
So for an attack it would be "The goblin rolls a 12." The player doesn't know what bonuses or penalties are on that roll, just what is on the die. So choose to reroll. Maybe that 12 would have hit, maybe it would have missed.
The power, as written, assumes all die rolls are made in the open.
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This is one reason I hate in-game powers that require meta-game knowledge.
I read this as "wait until the creature rolls a d20 with the result in view but don't reveal the result of the roll and then decide whether to force a reroll of the die.
So for an attack it would be "The goblin rolls a 12." The player doesn't know what bonuses or penalties are on that roll, just what is on the die. So choose to reroll. Maybe that 12 would have hit, maybe it would have missed.
I don't think this idea was play-tested well. While on the whole I am impressed with the Devs, one area they seems to have a blind spot for is the value of forcing re-rolls (see the value of the persistent spell meta-magic ability...)
This sort of metagame knowledge dependent power is common in 4e. It really, really bugs me.
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This sort of metagame knowledge dependent power is common in 4e. It really, really bugs me.
Agreed. Hopefully others will click the FAQ and they will weigh in or correct the issue.
As it stands, in my opinion it just doesn't work. I'm surprised it hasn't come up sooner (maybe it has and I missed the thread)
Just inform the DM of your intent to use misfortune and ask them to put the impending results in an RP format.
1-5: "The monster swings at you, it looks pretty off the mark.
6-10: "The monster unleashes a blow, it looks clumsy, but not without merit:"
11-15: "the creature swings, the blow looks relatively well placed.
16-19: "The creature attacks, it looks almost certain to succeed."
20: "The monster swings true, it looks certain to strike and highly probable to cause a grievous wound.
I mean, more often then not you're probably going to know in advance if you intend to use misfortune.
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Just inform the DM of your intent to use misfortune and ask them to put the impending results in an RP format.
1-5: "The monster swings at you, it looks pretty off the mark.
6-10: "The monster unleashes a blow, it looks clumsy, but not without merit:"
11-15: "the creature swings, the blow looks relatively well placed.
16-19: "The creature attacks, it looks almost certain to succeed."
20: "The monster swings true, it looks certain to strike and highly probable to cause a grievous wound.I mean, more often then not you're probably going to know in advance if you intend to use misfortune.
Still pretty metagame.
My personal opinion is the ability is overpowered as an immediate action with no per day limits. Adding either or both would be fine considering the dual curse. And it is ridiculously overpowered as a first level ability as written and combined with any spell requiring a save, which the Oracle themselves can cast and in the same round functionally make it a persistent spell with no penalty, at first level. Hell, when they make it a persistent spell and add this...
I don't think that was the intent, at least I hope it wasn't.
1. If you are a DM who uses a screen, the player isn't going to know what the rolls are in order to decide to ask for a re-roll or not. If this is intended or not, it changes things greatly.
While true, nothing compels a GM to hide his rolls. That is a matter of preference. I believe at least one dev on these boards has stated that he hides no rolls and rolls out in the open. That could be 'how it is' around the office. Though, for that situation, yes it is tricky if not impossible. I guess a player could specify something like 'if the creature rolls above 10 have him reroll' and then request the player's Misfortune club member card.
2. As written, a player can basically force a re-roll of every failed SoS roll, since it isn't a per day cap, but a per creature cap. Every boss fight, every mook, all can be made to re-roll a successful save to see if they will instead fail. A deadly combo.
It's also limited to once per round. You can use a combo of swift and immediate actions in the same round after your turn but you lose the ability to do so next round, effectively equating things out to once per round. However, the more deadly combination is the Witch version who can also use Cackle to persist the effect indefinitely and applies to all rolls the creature makes (see below). However, that is a pretty potent Ex ability and pretty odd they made it Ex. That means it can't be shut off. Ever. :\
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.
Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
At least the witch version doesn't force metagaming.
Still pretty metagame.
My personal opinion is the ability is overpowered as an immediate action with no per day limits. Adding either or both would be fine considering the dual curse. And it is ridiculously overpowered as a first level ability as written and combined with any spell requiring a save, which the Oracle themselves can cast and in the same round functionally make it a persistent spell with no penalty, at first level. Hell, when they make it a persistent spell and add this...
I don't think that was the intent, at least I hope it wasn't.
If you hate this one ability that much you would loathe the Witch, LOL. Here's what they have access to a level 1 (and there's more in Ultimate Magic). Keep in mind they can select 2 of these at first level, 3 actually if they're human, and the select the Additional Hex feat.
Hex: Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes. At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice. She gains an additional hex at 2nd level and for every 2 levels attained after 2nd level, as noted on Table 2–10. A witch cannot select an individual hex more than once.
Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The save to resist a hex is equal to 10 + 1/2 the witch's level + the witch's Intelligence modifier.
Blight (Su): The witch can curse an animal, plant creature, or plot of land, causing it to wither and die. Blighting an area takes 1 round, during which time the witch and her familiar must be in contact with the target. If it's used on a plot of land, the land begins to wither the following day, and over the next week all plants in the area die. Nothing will grow in that area so long as the curse persists. A witch can affect an area with a radius equal to her class level × 10 feet. Blighting a creature is a standard action that requires a melee touch attack. If used on a creature of the animal or plant type, the creature gains the following curse: Blight Hex—type curse; save Will negates; frequency 1/day; effect 1 Con damage. Both types of curse can be removed with a remove curse or similar magic, using the save DC as the DC to remove the curse. A witch can only have one blight in effect at a time. If another blight hex is made, the first immediately ends.
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.
Cauldron (Ex): The witch receives Brew Potion as a bonus feat and a +4 insight bonus on Craft (alchemy) skill checks.
Charm (Su): A witch can charm an animal or humanoid creature within 30 feet by beckoning and speaking soothing words. This improves the attitude of an animal or humanoid creature by 1 step, as if the witch had successfully used the Diplomacy skill. The effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save negates this effect. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day. At 8th level, this effect improves the attitude of the target creature by 2 steps. This is a mind-affecting charm effect.
Coven (Ex): The witch counts as a hag for the purpose of joining a hag's coven. The coven must contain at least one hag. In addition, whenever the witch with this hex is within 30 feet of another witch with this hex, she can use the aid another action to grant a +1 bonus to the other witch's caster level for 1 round. This bonus applies to the witch's spells and all of her hexes.
Disguise (Su): A witch can change her appearance for a number of hours equal to her class level, as if using disguise self. These hours do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-hour increments.
Evil Eye (Su): The witch can cause doubt to creep into the mind of a foe within 30 feet that she can see. The target takes a –2 penalty on one of the following (witch's choice): AC, ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, or skill checks. This hex lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the witch's Intelligence modifier. A Will save reduces this to just 1 round. This is a mind-affecting effect. At 8th level the penalty increases to –4.
Flight (Su): The witch grows lighter as she gains power, eventually gaining the ability to fly. At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will and gains a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks. At 3rd level, she can cast levitate once per day. At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. This hex only affects the witch.
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.
Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using the witch's caster level. Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours. At 5th level, this hex acts like cure moderate wounds.
Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch's level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Tongues (Su): A witch with this hex can understand any spoken language for a number of minutes per day equal to her level, as comprehend languages. This duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be spent in 1-minute increments. At 5th level, a witch can use this ability to speak any language, as per tongues.
Ward (Su): A witch can use this hex to place a protective ward over one creature. The warded creature receives a +2 deflection bonus to AC and a +2 resistance bonus on saving throws. This ward lasts until the warded creature is hit or fails a saving throw. A witch knows when a warded creature is no longer protected. A witch can have only one ward active at a time. If the witch uses this ability again, the previous ward immediately ends. A witch cannot use this ability on herself. At 8th level and 16th level, the bonuses provided by this ward increase by +1.
At least the witch version doesn't force metagaming.
True.
And keep in mind that the Witch's ability doesn't also let your companions re-roll poor saves etc. And the Witch basically must sacrifice standard actions to keep this up.
Let's not talk about all this in combination with Ill Omen and Persistent Spell. BBEGs just don't stand a chance. Ever.
Every party I'm making from now on is having a Re-rollacle and a SoS wizard in it. Done and Done.
Cackle is a move action, senor, and it applies to Fortune, which does let your companions reroll their bad rolls.
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The witch's actions require standards to start, and investing move actions is still a large chunk per turn (especially on a Witch who is probably squishy and needs to maneuver to stay within 30' to make her hexes useful anyhow.) Not to mention Cackle only works on creatures within 30', so to even extend it the Witch may have to spend a move to get in range then another move to Cackle.
Also, Misfortune from the witch affords a will save to cancel it. Also, you must invest in 3 hexes to get all of these affects, which means feats and/or more levels, which makes it more costly than the Oracle's ability.
So, to recap, this Witch version requires a Standard action, affords a will save, and the witch must use move actions to maintain it, all while staying within 30'. Plus you can only target the creature once, whether they make the save or not. This makes it way harder to set up and have ready to go with an SoS spell as the Witch has to land her Hex first, and the other caster may be delaying to wait for that (an action that might not even cause a reroll in the first place due to a will save).
The Oracle on the other hand does this automatically, no save, doesn't have to spend a move or a standard on any turn to get the effect in place, and can also use it on allies if needed.
The two abilities aren't even close to equal. While the Witch's does scale with level and become even better, it will always afford a save and require a standard to activate. An Oracle with SoS spells can simply GO on round one with its version of Misfortune. At higher levels, combine it with Quickened Ill Omen and Persistent Spells. Witch's can do that last bit as well, but my thoughts on Ill Omen are a different can of worms.
I was going to comment on the witch and how they typically make better debuffers with better spell access and a similar ability abet tied to a will save and standard/move actions, but that's mostly just splitting hairs. Plus, Buri already went that route and the action economy favors the DC-Oracle anyways.
The cost a DC oracle pays for getting access to a relatively potent ability is rather steep.
A DC oracle loses out on:
- Anywhere between 4-10 class skills (Dependent on Mystery). This can translate into essentially between 12 to 30 skill ranks.
- Replaces her 2nd, 4th, 6th bonus spells for usually, let's be honest here, inferior bonus spells.
- Picks up a 2nd debilitating curse that doesn't progress or offer obvious benefits.
In exchange they pick up access to the potent Misfortune revelation and 2 extra revelations over 13 levels. The extra revelations are nice, but on any mystery list there are only a handful of truly shiny gems so you end up picking up a few stale abilities once you run out of the juicy ones.
Another limitation that's often overlooked is that it's useless during a surprise round and can't be used on anything that acts before a DC oracle in round 1 due to the flat footed condition. It also has limitation of immediate/swift actions only being refreshed on your turn so if you use it on someone who acts after your character you can't use it on someone who acts before you the next round.
In my opinion the Oracle is a pretty middling class overall compared to other full casters and the misfortune ability while potent and nice at all levels, but particularly nice at low levels, hardly tips them as a class into overpowered.
The ability is definitely tricky to work around with GM preferences on rolling behind screens or not. This can be solved via things like an agreement with a GM and the player "Use your own discretion hopefully impartial on the target of the rerolls and if something rolls above a 13 or 14 on a take the reroll and apply it on your own. I'll specify if I plan on using it to make a save from a spell stick the round before I cast."
It also requires a level of meta-gaming which is a little unsightly, but it's probably not the only offender in terms of abilities in the game mechanics. It's surely something I'd consider proper to talk to your GM and work things out before deciding to play a character with such an ability, though.
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Cackle is a move action, senor, and it applies to Fortune, which does let your companions reroll their bad rolls.
Yes, but if you cackle you lose your move action within 30 feet of the enemy you are effecting, meaning that enemy is within relatively easy attack distance of you, the unarmored and squishy arcane caster, and you just used your move action to reinforce something you used a standard action previously to activate.
And of course, there is a save for a Hex.
There is no save against the Oracle, and it is an immediate action.
No loss of action economy, no save.
While the Oracle was probably based off the witch, they removed the limits and action economy costs.
Yes, but if you cackle you lose your move action within 30 feet of the enemy you are effecting, meaning that enemy is within relatively easy attack distance of you, the unarmored and squishy arcane caster, and you just used your move action to reinforce something you used a standard action previously to activate.
And of course, there is a save for a Hex.
There is no save against the Oracle, and it is an immediate action.
No loss of action economy, no save.
While the Oracle was probably based off the witch, they removed the limits and action economy costs.
The last Witch I played had it set up as such:
Round 1: Evil Eye on a monster's saves. Immediately follow this up with a Cackle or move.
Round 2: Misfortune then Cackle.
Round 3: If they saved on Misfortune, use it again because I took Accursed Hex.
Round 4 and future ones: Repeat above with each enemy as necessary making judicious use of move-equivalent actions to decide whether to Cackle immediately after a hex on one round or to wait on another to both move and Cackle.
The party and fights I was in were sufficient that most enemies were relatively locked down meaning they would risk several AOOs and/or rough terrain to get to me. Also, I was an avid player of Star Wars Minis a couple years ago where tactical piece movement was key in terms of making it difficult for enemies to get to you while allowing you to pounce on them as needed and using LoS/E rules like a two-bit whore and ensuring that as many enemies as possible are within range of my abilities. I utilize these skills in Pathfinder. Is it metagaming? I don't care. My witch had a 20 intelligence. Doing the above it was nothing for me to make life hell for fights of any size. The -2 on saves helped and even if they made a save I got a second shot with my feats. If you can land Misfortune and keep it going it's money, pure and simple.
Also, I would make 'tough' enemies cry more by using Evil Eye in its other uses (attack rolls, AC, etc) in subsequent rounds when they were busy with the 2 or 3 people surrounding them. -2 might not seem like much but when used on AC, for example, you might be surprised at how many attacks suddenly land and how many miss when you debuff their attack rolls. Mind you, this character only survived until about level 3 because of a bridge incident and not due to combat. Go figure. So, at those levels there weren't enemies who could a) really *know* what I was doing and b) use abilities to circumvent things like terrain or AOOs to get to me to stop me. I'm sure things would have been more interesting at higher levels. It was boss low-level though.
The point of bringing up the Witch though is that in your OP you make it sound like the Misfortune ability is brokenly awesome whereas the Witch has a similar ability with much more versatility and annoyance factor. Essentially, it could be worse.
To be fair an Oracle isn't exactly that much less squishy than a witch and the witch is usually either flying or has access to invisibility, blink, or mirror image if they go with the deception, trickery, or spirits patrons. Something an oracle simply can't replicate on her own.
Both the witch and the DC-Oracle are limited by the range of 30ft regardless with the only notable exception of a witch using the scar hex to effect creatures up to a mile away.
Saves are considerably less of an issue if the witch has the Accursed Hex and ability focus feats. They can take a further action economy hit and evil eye their targets will save as well. Split Hex helps double down on the action economy pretty nicely too.
Don't get me wrong the DC-Oracle's misfortune is quite nice, but with a cost of a standard/move action a witch can do the same thing, but twice with split hex. Force them to take the lower roll of the two no matter what their first roll is. Keep it up with an indefinite duration with cackle. And have access to a much more damning SoD/SoS spell list to make use of it along with persist spell meta-magic.
The DC-Oracle wins out on the action economy in the short run, but the witch is much more potent with the right build and abet worse cost in terms of action economy, which is manageable. Plus the DC-Oracle is a divine spontaneous caster which is already on the low end of the totem pole in terms of the power of a full caster and pays a rather steep entry cost to gain access to the ability making it at least a costly trade off for the power.
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@Buri That means the witch is functionally immobile for the first and second round within 30 feet of a creature (attack range, likely full attack range the 2nd round).
"Locked down" is relative. If the creature moves out of the 30 foot range, she can't pursue (both her standard and move are used) and she is personally doing no damage.
Compare to the oracle who loses no action economy.
@Waltz You forget that with that standard action, the oracle can themselves be casting the SoS spell, or do any number of other things.
Also a 3/4 BaB d8 character who can wear armor and self heal is far less vulnerable that a 1/2 BaB d6 armorless character with limited healing abilities.
Let's not drift into Schrodinger's Witch territory here with the "She could fly and be invisible", she still needs to be within 30 feet of the enemy with no mobility (if she is using her standard and her move action)
I submitted the oracle build which is the cause of this thread and rerolls are a powerful tool but i think that the way the ability works is strong but balanced.
If your not giving the player the chance to use the ability then i'd call foul on the gm tbh. I know some gms roll behind a screen, i roll open and a friend always uses a screen. But it is just a small matter to say to the oracle player, potential crit or rolled a 15 for that willpower save vs sucking, so they can decide to use the ability or not.
The power of it is unquestioned, i think the practice needs clarification.
Edit: small witch riding a medium familiar(via share spells enlarge person or just improved familiar), can still move and cackle and do something else.
with the errata'd scar hex it's a bit better when you buff allies as your cackle extends for a full mile (provided you scar them before hand.)
mounted is of course the cure for lost mobility, as then your mount can move as you cackle.
@ciretose: I don't mean to invoke schrodinger's, just simply pointing out that the witch has access to such defensive spells and abilities whereas an oracle no matter the mystery the does not. Further, a hedge witch can cast cure spells spontaneously or a regular one can simply pick up the healing hex whereas the oracle will never be able to extend her misfortune force them to take the worse or have access to a better SoD/SoS spell list.
As for being out of move actions at 8th level a witch's misfortune lasts for 2 round and at 16th lasts for 3 rounds on it's own. Freeing up the ability to move at the witch's leisure if she didn't decide to simply take two move actions one to cackle and one to keep her target in range. Personally, if a target wants to burn their own actions up moving away and likely forfeiting full-attack that's a net positive and I'd say just target a new enemy or toss off a spell.
Arcane Armor training and mithral chain skirt is a quick dirty fix for a witches AC and gives her something to burn swift actions on.
With everything specifics aren't important, but what is important is the classes overall versatility and available options open to them and a witch has that in spades. IMHO, action economy is important, but it isn't everything. A 8th level witch sacrificing a standard action to do the same thing except better, applying the reroll to all attacks/saves/skill checks, twice, with double to triple the duration, and a method for keeping it up indefinitely is arguably comparably as potent as doing it as a swift action with no save given that if you play your witch well they shouldn't be making their save 90% of the time anyways and you only have a handful of standard actions to spend on spell-casting each day.
In terms of stupid crazy stuff the oracle gets I'd definitely rank the misfortune ability below a heavens oracles awesome display. To be honest though the Oracles definitely not on my list of classes that need nerfing so if they get a really good ability for the cost of up 12-30 skill bonuses, replacing their first 3 bonus spells with stinkers, and picking up a 2nd non-beneficial debilitating curse. Good on them.
@Buri That means the witch is functionally immobile for the first and second round within 30 feet of a creature (attack range, likely full attack range the 2nd round).
"Locked down" is relative. If the creature moves out of the 30 foot range, she can't pursue (both her standard and move are used) and she is personally doing no damage.
Compare to the oracle who loses no action economy.
The Oracle does lose out on a swift or other immediate action as you can only do one of those per round. It's minor, sure. But, you can't use Quick Draw, for example. Also, if rocks fall and everyone dies, then no abilities matter. I say this as that wasn't the case in the fights my witch fought in so it was a moot point. But, *if* the creature moves out of the 30 foot range, there's always the option to move and then Cackle. So pursuit is very possible.
On scar, you can use it on enemies as well: scarring a creature with the hex has two benefits: the witch can use any of her hexes on that creature at a range of up to one mile. This would make pursuit a moot point. Actually, the creature could be hiding, roll a successful stealth, etc. They can be under any condition outside of an antimagic field and still be affected by your hex. That errata removes any need for LoS/E.
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The Oracle does lose out on a swift or other immediate action as you can only do one of those per round. It's minor, sure. But, you can't use Quick Draw, for example. Also, if rocks fall and everyone dies, then no abilities matter. I say this as that wasn't the case in the fights my witch fought in so it was a moot point. But, *if* the creature moves out of the 30 foot range, there's always the option to move and then Cackle. So pursuit is very possible.@Buri That means the witch is functionally immobile for the first and second round within 30 feet of a creature (attack range, likely full attack range the 2nd round).
"Locked down" is relative. If the creature moves out of the 30 foot range, she can't pursue (both her standard and move are used) and she is personally doing no damage.
Compare to the oracle who loses no action economy.
In one example the witch has to set up someone else to do the dirty work, as they are tied up and vulnerable. Add to that the fact the enemy gets a save against the Hex having any effect.
With the oracle, they can still do everything they normally do (except a swift action, which is almost nothing) while using the effect, and the enemy has no possible save against the effect.
Both are powerful, but one has no defense, almost no cost, while requiring the GM to either roll openly (which considering GM screens are a product sold by Paizo, they know at least some of us don't do that) or metagame like crazy.
Your example took rounds to set up, during which your low AC/low hit points arcane caster is within 30 feet of whatever you are using it on, generally immobile, and risk doing nothing if the enemy make the save.
The oracle can do it whenever they are within 30 feet, still cast a spell and move, and the enemy has no save against it.
The oracle can do it whenever they are within 30 feet, still cast a spell and move, and the enemy has no save against it.
It can only affect one roll, per enemy, per day. That's not that awesome. It's nifty, no doubt. However, let's say a combat encounter goes for 10 rounds with a particularly hard baddie since the normal shlubs can just be mowed down in a few rounds where this ability would be useless anyway. I would argue it will make at least 10 rolls in that time. The Oracle can potentially stop, at most, 1/10th of those rolls and only gets worse if they roll more than that. If this reroll turns a normal attack into a crit, you just shot yourself in the foot. The Witch states the creature uses the worst of the two rolls. The Oracle version forces use of the reroll, even if it's worse for you. That's not all that great of an ability. One could also argue it can't be used to negate crits since everyone knows a 20 is a crit and auto hits and you can only use the Oracle ability after a roll is made but before results are known.
The Witch version, while it is SoS, though you have tons of tools to stack the odds heavily in your favor, once affected, all the creatures rolls are affected and they always take the worse roll. Even if they reroll a normal attack and the reroll would be a crit, they still do just a normal attack. With the Witch you always at least get what you would have had without the Hex. Whenever it 'takes effect,' it's always in your favor.
Staying within 30 feet of a bad guy really isn't that big of a deal nor is it that difficult. You can position yourself so it makes it difficult for them to reach you and most monsters wouldn't think to bother the guy that isn't beating them in the face. Also, if it takes a couple rounds to 'deal' with you, it will most likely take AOOs, let the party rogue or fighters get into a dandy position to do extra damage. It would cost the monster dearly.
I'm also speaking to 'typical fights.' The tone of your posts makes me think you're fighting Balors or something. Which, if we were, instead of forcing a reroll of 1/10th of the rolls it would get even less usefull by only affecting something closer to 1/20th of the rolls or worse as Balors are beasts in their own right. That would be next to nothing in a fight. If you get all excited and use your 'end game' skill/ability and declare for the enemy to reroll regardless (cuz the option is gone once you know it failed, if it failed) and say their first roll is a 1 but their reroll is a 20 on a save, then you're screwed. This would be impossible with the Witch version.
Given the option, action economy factors and all, I would choose the Witch ability any day.
The Oracle does lose out on a swift or other immediate action as you can only do one of those per round. It's minor, sure. But, you can't use Quick Draw, for example. Also, if rocks fall and everyone dies, then no abilities matter. I say this as that wasn't the case in the fights my witch fought in so it was a moot point. But, *if* the creature moves out of the 30 foot range, there's always the option to move and then Cackle. So pursuit is very possible.@Buri That means the witch is functionally immobile for the first and second round within 30 feet of a creature (attack range, likely full attack range the 2nd round).
"Locked down" is relative. If the creature moves out of the 30 foot range, she can't pursue (both her standard and move are used) and she is personally doing no damage.
Compare to the oracle who loses no action economy.
In one example the witch has to set up someone else to do the dirty work, as they are tied up and vulnerable. Add to that the fact the enemy gets a save against the Hex having any effect.
With the oracle, they can still do everything they normally do (except a swift action, which is almost nothing) while using the effect, and the enemy has no possible save against the effect.
Both are powerful, but one has no defense, almost no cost, while requiring the GM to either roll openly (which considering GM screens are a product sold by Paizo, they know at least some of us don't do that) or metagame like crazy.
Your example took rounds to set up, during which your low AC/low hit points arcane caster is within 30 feet of whatever you are using it on, generally immobile, and risk doing nothing if the enemy make the save.
The oracle can do it whenever they are within 30 feet, still cast a spell and move, and the enemy has no save against it.
I am playing a 9th level Dual-Cursed Oracle now. The misfortune's swift action is both awesome and a drawback. At low level there isn't much else to do with them. At mid to high levels, when the Quicken Spell metamagic is available, those swift actions become a scarce commodity. Do I quicken a spell or leave the potential to force a re-roll?
I use the re-roll primarily for 3 things: ally's critical fumbles, enemy critical hits, enemy saves. Even if your DM rolls behind a screen you could work out an agreement that he report critical threats. And you can express an interest when a SOS/SOD save comes up that you may be interested in forcing a re-roll. The metagaming doesn't have to be all encompassing.
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@ Buri - One roll per enemy makes SoS spells work out so that you aren't having a 10 round fights.
Once effected still depends on if they make a save initially against the Hex. If they save, the Witch has wasted a standard action that could have been used casting a spell.
The oracle version has no save.
Both have the same "once a day per enemy limitation". This came up during an experiment running through an AP and discussing strategies for encounters that come up during the AP.
@ The Bald Man - One gives up a swift action and has no save, one give up a standard and a move action, and has a save.
@ Buri - One roll per enemy makes SoS spells work out so that you aren't having a 10 round fights.
Once effected still depends on if they make a save initially against the Hex. If they save, the Witch has wasted a standard action that could have been used casting a spell.
The oracle version has no save.
Both have the same "once a day per enemy limitation". This came up during an experiment running through an AP and discussing strategies for encounters that come up during the AP.
The Witch hex states "Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day" versus "Once a creature has suffered from your misfortune, it cannot be the target of this revelation again for 1 day." Targetted for Witch, affected for Oracle. You can persist the Witch version ad infinitum with Cackle.
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.
You're not retargetting the enemy with the Misfortune hex. You're simply prolonging an effect that is already on them. Thus, the target is the effect, not the creature.
Accursed Hex gives you a second chance even if they make their save.
Accursed Hex
You can make a second attempt at failed hexes.
Prerequisite: Hex class feature.
Benefit: When you target a creature with a hex that cannot target the same creature more than once per day, and that creature succeeds at its saving throw against the hex's effect, you can target the creature with the same hex a second time before the end of your next turn. If the second attempt fails, you can make no further attempts to target that creature with the same hex for 1 day.
Normal: You can only target a creature with these hexes once per day.
Sure, there's a save, but it's still superior to the Oracle Misfortune if for nothing else it's single-use versus multi(multiple rounds)/all-encompassing(all rolls) use. Nothing guarantees a reroll means the fight is realistically any shorter. It can equate to a missed save, sure, but otherwise all it really means is they miss on attacks. Also, the Oracle version can make your day worse if the reroll lands a 20. These types of abilities are for shutting enemies down, not destroying them. Another deadly combo would be Evil Eye on saves followed by Slumber. I think you're also hedging on a misconception that enemies make a majority of their saves. This is not the case in my experience. I would say it's about a 40/60 ratio of hit/miss, respectively. With Accursed Hex in there this increased in my favor to something closer to 30/70.
Your OP makes you think it's this awesome ability that breaks the game. It's nothing of the sort. I'd be glad to setup an encounter with you and go back and forth round for round. Your single use of Misfortune will have a negligible effect on the outcome of the fight.
I would go so far to say that if you can't handle that in your game, any witch I play would drive you insane.
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@Buri - Having a save vs no save is no contest in my opinion, and that is before you are comparing standard action vs immediate action.
One is "Wait, I'm going to use my standard action try to hex him, then you can do X if he doesn't make the save on your turn. Hope it works, because I'm standing here cackling 30 feet from him with no actions left."
One is "Oh, you did something and he saved (immediate action) no he didn't, roll again. If he still saves, now here is what I am doing on my turn since I didn't waste any actions doing that."
You can't make him roll again with the Oracle Misfortune once you know he saved. You either use it in a reactionary fashion blindly or not at all.
before the results of the roll are revealed
Action economy was never an issue if you were clever about it, which, given my history in SWM, it was actually quite easy to manage. I was still able to move, cast spells, use other hexes, etc. Once you position yourself correctly, you own the battlefield. If you use scar, you can even have your familiar do all the leg work for you and range becomes moot:
If a witch is 3rd level or higher, her familiar can deliver touch spells or hexes for her.
Letting your familiar do things is even better with the Improved Familiar feat and you gain access to stronger/better familiars.
This is a ridiculous argument. How people can say that an action that affords a save and requires a standard action is equal to or better than an immediate, no save action is beyond me, especially when the immediate one requires metagaming whilst the standard action does not.
I'm not saying one is definitely broken or whatnot, just that arguing the witch's version is somehow better at level 1 is quixotic.
This is a ridiculous argument. How people can say that an action that affords a save and requires a standard action is equal to or better than an immediate, no save action is beyond me, especially when the immediate one requires metagaming whilst the standard action does not.
I'm not saying one is definitely broken or whatnot, just that arguing the witch's version is somehow better at level 1 is quixotic.
I'm speaking from having played the witch class and seen monsters respond to the saves. When I was playing, the saves were failed more often than not. That said, my save DC was 16 at level 1. Most things only have a 2 to 4 buff to their Will save if anything at all. Goblins, which was what I was fighting most, actually have a -1 to Will so the DC was effectively 17 for them. Given my "do it twice" feat 'took out' those enemies that saved more often than not since it required consecutive high rolls on the die. I was also packing Slumber so I could effectively take enemies out of the equation in a battle.
Also, as stated, you only get one immediate/swift action per turn or one swift then an immediate after your turn in the same round at the cost of both your immediate and swift options in the next round. Several abilities work off this for the various classes. You have to make a choice of to Misfortune randomly or to use some other effect that has more predictable results. This is the action economy hit for the Oracle. This mirrors very closely to the witch class (hex or spell or normal attack) and therefore equals it out to the point where it's not a valid argument when comparing the two. It may not be a pronounced issue at level 1 but it certainly is later with metamagic stuff.
Since saves are high off the bat for the witch and action economy is similar for both that leaves me with the resulting effect. The witch version is much more potent than the oracle as it affects all saves and can have the effect extended without additional saves for as long as the witch wants it to. Given the option for the witch to put scar to use at level 1 as well, range doesn't really play into this as it can be negated as well.
Sorry, Buri. I just think you're wrong. The action economy of spending standard actions and moves does not equal out to spending swift/immediate actions, especially for almost all of the early part of the game. What else, exactly, is the Oracle deciding against doing with that swift action until she hits level 10? It's not a lot. Most swift actions never even get used in low level play, let alone immediate actions. So to compare them to the witch's skills which require standard and move actions and then call it equal is disingenuous or wrong, depending on the motivation behind the statement.
Also, calling high save DCs equal to No Save falls into the same category of wrong/dishonest.
The rest of your argument is leveraging all sorts of other abilities/builds, which isn't what we're talking about at all. The problem isn't "Is the oracle's ability equal to a witch who is built to these exact specifications?", it's more like "Hey, this Misfortune power seems overpowered and metagamey to the point we're confused and would like clarification."
The rest of your argument is leveraging all sorts of other abilities/builds, which isn't what we're talking about at all. The problem isn't "Is the oracle's ability equal to a witch who is built to these exact specifications?", it's more like "Hey, this Misfortune power seems overpowered and metagamey to the point we're confused and would like clarification."
The entire reason I bring up the witch is because the oracle version is far from overpowered. It only affects a single roll, per enemy, per day. That's not that great. The witch, on the other hand, affects all rolls for however long the witch chooses to maintain the effect. Then the whole 'but they have to fail their save and stay within range' discussion happened. Whether there is a save or not, the potency of the abilities are vastly different with the witch having the more powerful variant. Unless the oracle holds off on using this ability until an enemy makes a stabilization roll or a save against an effect that would kill/incapacitate them it's really lackluster comparing the two and only until those situations does the ability really become useful. It downright sucks from the perspective you can turn an attack roll into a crit against you if you're forcing a reroll on an attack.
You're right it's metagamey but it's clearly written to be such. It's unfair almost to the point of provocation to anger as well since someone has to choose to use the ability before they know the result of something. At all the games I've played at, the time between the roll of the die and knowing results is a matter of seconds, if not less than a second. The best you could hope for to keep things fair for an oracle with this ability is to have a GM polling the player to see if they want to use their ability.
In light of calling me dishonest or disingenuous, eat glass. All I've done is relate my actual playing experience with these abilities on a witch. You don't like it? Tough.
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In light of calling me dishonest or disingenuous, eat glass. All I've done is relate my actual playing experience with these abilities on a witch. You don't like it? Tough.
Calm down, no one said you are dishonest, we just don't think you are correct.
On topic, the issue is if it was intended for a first level character to be able to force the GM to open rolls and force re-rolls of any d0 roll without any save for the enemy as an immediate action.
Put this in the hands of an NPC. You crying foul now when a first level oracle can make your epic level character re-roll a made save?
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I'm sort of in the middle on this as I understand why it's rather powerful, but I'm not on board calling it overpowered or thinking it's a sufficiently deserving thing to bar from play.
Hands down it's very good at low levels and the action economy with no save keeps the ability useful and still effective for all 20 levels. That said I still think the witch does it better at higher levels despite the action economy hit and lack of a save favoring the oracle.
In my opinion the oracle is still a poor class compared to other full-casters and there are a lot more potent abilities other classes get at level 1 (I'm looking at you Summoner + Archetypes). It's very good yes, but arguably the witch is comparable if not better and the DC-Oracle has to pay a hefty cost of admission to simply get the ability. In comparison to an Oracle's Awesome Display or Side-Step secret there are stronger options for an oracle to examine aside from misfortune that don't carry a terrible cost to gain access.
.....eat glass....
May I direct you to This Thread.
Calm down, no one said you are dishonest...
Sorry, but I must call you on this one. One post above the post you quoted...
...is disingenuous or wrong, depending on the motivation behind the statement.....
Also, calling high save DCs equal to No Save falls into the same category of wrong/dishonest.
Now that's being a little dishonest, isn't it? ;)
I suppose we could play the semantics game, but that's hardly the point.
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I'm sort of in the middle on this as I understand why it's rather powerful, but I'm not on board calling it overpowered or thinking it's a sufficiently deserving thing to bar from play.
A few things to note.
That is what they get at 1st level. At 2nd level they get the spell Ill Omen which functionally allows them to do the same as the witches hex with their standard action with no save, and still have a re-roll as an immediate action.
Meaning they can do better than the same thing as the witch (since they can force them to take the lesser of two rolls, and re-roll as well if they both would save) at 2nd level, only with no save and in a single round.
Which I don't think was the intent, just as I don't think it was the intent that they force a GM to have all rolls out in the open.
Actually, I want to bring up a point I have not seen made, and that is this: despite its name, the Oracle ability says "creature". I cannot find anything that says it does not work on allies also (if a bit risky at times...)
And sorry Buri, but I have to agree with others. Yes, the hex is awesome, but there is just no way I can accept the argument that a standard and move every turn is more action efficient than an immediate if you want to. Not to mention save or suck, and works on allies if needed, I just have to side with the Oracle version being vastly superior.
And single reroll per target per day? Do you know how many people took levels in fatespinner to get that once per day PERIOD? This is fatespinner on drugs.
Just to point you towards the fortune revelation at level 5 which is worded exactly the same and makes it 2 rerolls per creature per day.
My current build is helping SoS spells stick, negating crits, helping PCs bad save rolls and rerolling clutch skill checks when they roll low (like stealth and such). Doing that 2/day for pc's is great, doing that against npc's means that fights are shorter and safer since npc's normally only ever get one really good roll which you can force a reroll on.
Based purely on play
I have a witch 8 in SeSk and a DC-gnome-oracle 5 in CC
My observations
Combats last a very short time in PF so stuff that is only 'once per creature per day' is all you need
Most of the tricks of W+O are (SU) which is just awesome
They are both game slowers (like a monk Ki stuff) and they often dominate the combat round in terms of 'how much time your go takes'.
As they use meta they always gonna involve looking time at dice, thinking time if you should re-roll that 12, etc
The player really, really needs to know how these work or it really affects the game
So IME, given time (rounds) the witch can do stuff to make things like phantasmal killer very powerful, and generally make stuff have high DC's but for split second stuff on the floor i think my oracle is more effective and misfortune is very powerful.
hmm, not sure i answered OP!!
Just to point you towards the fortune revelation at level 5 which is worded exactly the same and makes it 2 rerolls per creature per day.
My current build is helping SoS spells stick, negating crits, helping PCs bad save rolls and rerolling clutch skill checks when they roll low (like stealth and such). Doing that 2/day for pc's is great, doing that against npc's means that fights are shorter and safer since npc's normally only ever get one really good roll which you can force a reroll on.
not correct
it is 2 rolls altogether.
Just to point you towards the fortune revelation at level 5 which is worded exactly the same and makes it 2 rerolls per creature per day.
My current build is helping SoS spells stick, negating crits, helping PCs bad save rolls and rerolling clutch skill checks when they roll low (like stealth and such). Doing that 2/day for pc's is great, doing that against npc's means that fights are shorter and safer since npc's normally only ever get one really good roll which you can force a reroll on.
not correct
it is 2 rolls altogether.
I'm sorry but i do not understand what you mean, the information i posted about fortune/misfortune allowing you to provide 2 rerolls per creature per day is correct.
The fragmentary nature of your response makes it hard to understand what your point was and what you think i have said that is incorrect.
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@ Egoish and thenovalord
Fortune (Ex): At 5th level, as an immediate action, you can reroll any one d20 roll that you have just made before the results of the roll are revealed. You must take the result of the reroll, even if it's worse than the original roll. You can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every six oracle levels beyond 5th.
If you to are speaking of this Revelation, it is different from what both you are saying.
- it work only on the oracle
- it allow 1 reroll at level 5, 2 at level 11 and 3 at level 17.
Unless there is a Errata somewhere changing the text, it can't affect other targets and it has a variable number of uses, dependant on the oracle level.
Ah thank you diego, i had mis read the ability.
In that case fortune is kinda meh since it stop you using misfortune, chame.
It says this has been answered in the FAQ, but I can't seem to be able to find it.
Anyone else?