At the end of the playtest document, in a sidebar, is a blurb about vigilante talents being extremely powerful (more powerful than feats), and as a result it is unlikely that an Extra Vigilante Talent will be made.
Immediately, my brain when to Extra Revelation and Extra Evolution, both of which tend to be more powerful than a standard feat. Especially Extra Revelation, where there are several mystery options that effectively give you three feats over the course of several levels. (Battle's maneuver mastery and weapon mastery revelations both come to mind; maneuver mastery gives you full BAB for maneuvers and two feats while weapon mastery gives you Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and Greater Weapon Focus.) The parallel being that Extra Revelation exists while currently, Extra Vigilante Talent won't.
With a quick skimming of the talents presented in the playtest document, the only talents that truly feels like it is more powerful than a revelation are the various arcane training and divine training talents. Aside from those talents, nothing really feels like it warrants the lack of an Extra Vigilante Talent feat. If my hunch is right, then its likely to be an indicator that those talents are too powerful as-is.
Yes and no.
The Warlock kind of needs the answer to be "no" as a balancing factor. For all the others, I think the answer is "yes".
Extra Revelation is for Oracles, which only get six revelations across their career, not ten. So they'd have to take it five times before it's really justification for Vigilante getting it. (Okay, so five is unfair because the revelations are front-loaded.)
Compare apples to apples instead. Extra Rogue/Slayer/etc. Talent and Extra Rage Power are exactly the same, and Extra Hex is pretty close in terms of how many you're already getting for free.
Possibilities to consider might include omitting the language about it being something that you can take more than once (so you cannot put all of your feats into Vigilante talents) or giving a limited list of which talents the feat can be used for -- I would think that a feat that can only give you additional levels of Arcane Training or Divine Training would be useful if there is not going to be a general Extra Vigilante Talent feat.
Yes and no.
Compare apples to apples instead. Extra Rogue/Slayer/etc. Talent and Extra Rage Power are exactly the same, and Extra Hex is pretty close in terms of how many you're already getting for free.
I disagree. The number of talents might be the same between slayer/rogue and vigilante, but the power level isn't. Vigilante talents are more in the ball park of revelations, as I said.
The compromise might sit with Extra Evolution, which is a feat that you can take a total of five times across twenty levels.
Possibilities to consider might include omitting the language about it being something that you can take more than once (so you cannot put all of your feats into Vigilante talents) or giving a limited list of which talents the feat can be used for -- I would think that a feat that can only give you additional levels of Arcane Training or Divine Training would be useful if there is not going to be a general Extra Vigilante Talent feat.
From a design perspective, not wanting the vigilante to be table to take arcane / divine training as a feat is the most probable reason for not wanting an Extra Vigilante Talent to exist. The concept that a fight might be worth up to six spells known and a splattering of spells per day could be something that the design team wants to shy away from.
In which case, the whole "talent for more spells known" mechanic just might not work. It might be better to bake the whole spells per day class bit into the 1st level arcane training / divine training ability and power up the avenger and stalker abilities to compensate.
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Yes definitely.
Aside from the game balance issues, not being able to take an Extra Vigilante Talent as a feat just means that this class will be far less flexible when compared to its peers. For a class that was designed to cover so much broad territory (warrior, arcane caster, divine caster, etc.), building in this added inflexibility seems counter-intuitive.
Re: the balance issues. As many have pointed out, a lot of Extra Hex/Extra Revelation type options are also more powerful than feats. Simple solution, just balance the Vigilante Talents with those.
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Yes, such a feat should absolutely exist. Perhaps place a limitation on it though, such as only allowing it to be taken once and possibly only allow a talent chosen from another specialization.
Yes and no.
The Warlock kind of needs the answer to be "no" as a balancing factor. For all the others, I think the answer is "yes".
Extra Revelation is for Oracles, which only get six revelations across their career, not ten. So they'd have to take it five times before it's really justification for Vigilante getting it. (Okay, so five is unfair because the revelations are front-loaded.)
Compare apples to apples instead. Extra Rogue/Slayer/etc. Talent and Extra Rage Power are exactly the same, and Extra Hex is pretty close in terms of how many you're already getting for free.
Personally I think the Warlock and the Zealot are the two, if any, to need the feat... Seeing as half of their Talents are tied up just to cast spells...
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obviously the playtest will result in people saying "we need the talents to be more powerful! more more more more more PLEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASE!!"
this is why the sidebar is there; they are planning ahead to make the talents ridiculously OP so everyone gets their junkie OP shot in the left arm, buzz out in pleasure for a while, then wake up to some hollow realization that they need another class to get their next fix...
addiction takes many forms fellas! ;)
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Yes, such a feat should absolutely exist. Perhaps place a limitation on it though, such as only allowing it to be taken once and possibly only allow a talent chosen from another specialization.
I like Ravingdork's idea here. Make a feat that lets you grab one Vigilante talent from a different specialization, if you meet the prereqs, and you can't take it multiple times. This way you can dabble a little bit in one of the other specializations without breaking the game.
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No.
Such an elaborate and explanative post. It completely addresses the issues, ideas and concerns brought up in this thread and address why vigilante talents are superior to oracle revelations, or addresses that the feat extra oracle revelations probably shouldn't exist.
I like RD's idea. Some of the talents are better than feats, but they are still no better than an oracle's revelation or a witch's hex as an example and there is a feat for those. If they go with this design idea then all of the lower powered talents need to be bumped up, or they need to make this feat, even if they say you can't use with talents X,Y, and Z.
Honestly I don't think calling them "talents" is a good point of comparison to say they are better than rogue talents. If the name "talent" is the issue then just change the name to "expertise", which works considering each vigilante type is its own subclass, or something else that sounds good as a category name.
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No.
Logan would you mind expanding on this "no". Saying "no" won't make the idea go away. If you have some behind the scene reasons that have not been revealed that would be nice to know, even if you can't give us details on it.
Example: "We have this other idea that will expand on the talents, and some of them will be able to be much better than they are now. Sadly I am not allowed to give any details, but trust me, you will be amazed."
Yes, such a feat should absolutely exist. Perhaps place a limitation on it though, such as only allowing it to be taken once and possibly only allow a talent chosen from another specialization.I like Ravingdork's idea here. Make a feat that lets you grab one Vigilante talent from a different specialization, if you meet the prereqs, and you can't take it multiple times. This way you can dabble a little bit in one of the other specializations without breaking the game.
All the Stalkers will be grabbing Mystic Bolt.
I really really REALLY liked that the bombs talent said it gives the bombs class feature! That opens up the Vigilante to feat prerequisites that require the bomb class feature.
What if you opened up the vigilante to other "extra" feats, like if Rogue Talent gave him the rogue talent class feature plus one free rogue talent.
Designer
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No.Logan would you mind expanding on this "no". Saying "no" won't make the idea go away. If you have some behind the scene reasons that have not been revealed that would be nice to know, even if you can't give us details on it.
Sure. It's pretty simple, really. Many of the talents are built to be more effective than a feat. Even setting aside spellcasting, there are options like signature weapon that are worth two feats for the cost of one talent. Some previous Extra _____ feats have also been better than other feats, but we'd rather not continue that unfortunate trend, especially since the vigilante will have a really large number of options.
Sure. It's pretty simple, really. Many of the talents are built to be more effective than a feat. Even setting aside spellcasting, there are options like signature weapon that are worth two feats for the cost of one talent. Some previous Extra _____ feats have also been better than other feats, but we'd rather not continue that unfortunate trend, especially since the vigilante will have a really large number of options.No.Logan would you mind expanding on this "no". Saying "no" won't make the idea go away. If you have some behind the scene reasons that have not been revealed that would be nice to know, even if you can't give us details on it.
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Signature weapon is nice, but it is one of the better ones.
Suckerpunch, however is more along the power of a rogue talent(even many causal gamers prefer feats) than it is to an oracle revelation.
However knowing that all of the talents are supposed to be better than feats helps up know which ones to mention to the design team during this playtest.
Here is my litmus text for the overall power of talents vs feats. If you could either choose a talent or a feat anytime you could choose a talent will most people use those slot for feats or talents. Since they already have their normal feat slots for feats that should give the talents an advantage. If it is even a tie with regard to the talent slots going to feats then they need to be improved. The rogue and slayer do not pull ahead here unless I start to choose based on flavor instead of being practical.
At a glance it seems like the vigilante should be ahead. I am not counting the casters, but the martial versions simply because I expect for the casting talents to be chosen for most builds.
Here is my litmus text for the overall power of talents vs feats. If you could either choose a talent or a feat anytime you could choose a talent will most people use those slot for feats or talents. Since they already have their normal feat slots for feats that should give the talents an advantage. If it is even a tie with regard to the talent slots going to feats then they need to be improved. The rogue and slayer do not pull ahead here unless I start to choose based on flavor instead of being practical.
At a glance it seems like the vigilante should be ahead. I am not counting the casters, but the martial versions simply because I expect for the casting talents to be chosen for most builds.
We would be happy to see you try this litmus test out for different specializations; it's a good one. For the casters, they also get some slots for non-casting, and we expect they would still probably want a talent over a bonus feat that can be any feat for which they qualify. There will be noticeably more talents, so if they keep at this power level, the litmus test should swing more towards the talents with more choices.
Are there going to be more talents for the specializations? A pool of combat talents all specializations can pick from? Or is it just the addition of Social Persona talents, and will those be mainly social oriented or will the social persona get some combat talents?
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For sure they will each have more, in addition to general talents.
...especially since the vigilante will have a really large number of options.
Could you elaborate on how many options we might expect compared to what we are seeing here in the playtest? Are we only previewing half of what might be in the final class? A quarter?
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Sure. It's pretty simple, really. Many of the talents are built to be more effective than a feat. Even setting aside spellcasting, there are options like signature weapon that are worth two feats for the cost of one talent. Some previous Extra _____ feats have also been better than other feats, but we'd rather not continue that unfortunate trend, especially since the vigilante will have a really large number of options.No.Logan would you mind expanding on this "no". Saying "no" won't make the idea go away. If you have some behind the scene reasons that have not been revealed that would be nice to know, even if you can't give us details on it.
This is a cat that's already out of the bag. "Many of the talents are built to be more effective than a feat" isn't a fair comparison anymore. It's what the 'extra' feats gets you and vigilante talents aren't better than those.
If you are just going it think of the other 'extra' feats as unfortunate mistakes but leave them in place you are in effect penalizing the vigilante because it came out too late. It relegates them to a 'second class' class that doesn't get the same benefit from it's feats. This is particularly clear for the casting varieties that are already tossing 1/2 their talents away on casting before they can pick fun stuff while the oracle is sitting there with full casting and as many extra revelations as they want...
And as a side question, when did the 'extra' feats become an 'unfortunate trend? The last hard cover has extra feats in it so when did they become badwrongfun?
Based on the current talents in the playtest, it's difficult for the Avenger to want more than 4 for some builds, but other specializations tend to want more. I think it's telling that one of the options for Avenger is the option to take a combat feat, even if it includes the rider of qualifying for fighter-only feats.
There's a huge amount of variability in the quality of the Avenger talents, as well. Fist of the Avenger and Signature Weapon are both significant bonuses and worth more than a single feat, for sure. At the same time, you've got Suckerpunch, which is flavorful and situational to the point of impracticability.
If the talents are generally raised to the quality of Signature Weapon, I can see there being a case for no Extra Vigilante Talent. It's going to be a very difficult set of choices once the universals come into play, I hope.
We would be happy to see you try this litmus test out for different specializations; it's a good one. For the casters, they also get some slots for non-casting, and we expect they would still probably want a talent over a bonus feat that can be any feat for which they qualify. There will be noticeably more talents, so if they keep at this power level, the litmus test should swing more towards the talents with more choices.Here is my litmus text for the overall power of talents vs feats. If you could either choose a talent or a feat anytime you could choose a talent will most people use those slot for feats or talents. Since they already have their normal feat slots for feats that should give the talents an advantage. If it is even a tie with regard to the talent slots going to feats then they need to be improved. The rogue and slayer do not pull ahead here unless I start to choose based on flavor instead of being practical.
At a glance it seems like the vigilante should be ahead. I am not counting the casters, but the martial versions simply because I expect for the casting talents to be chosen for most builds.
That is good to know. I really need to get off of these forums and Facebook and put a build together.
I see the avenger as more of a batman or revenge trope type anti-hero.
The stalker seems more like a spy who is supposed to have enough skill to fight out of a situation if he is seen sneaking in. This one seems to be better off with a group of sneaky people. I don't want to see him scout ahead since his combat skills don't seem to great by me reading over them.
Anyway I will see what I can come up with.
Virgil
Male human rogue 7
Medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +11
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 21 (+7 armor, +1 deflection, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +2 shield)
hp 59 (7d8+21)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +9
Defensive Abilities trap sense +2, uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +1 battleaxe +10 (1d8+4/×3) or
. . light shield bash +7 (1d3+1)
Herolab got these numbers wrong. It should be 10/8/5/3 for ITWF
If power attacking with a two handed weapon the axe is at a +10/5 and does 1d8+11 damage.
Ranged mwk composite longbow +11 (1d8+3/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +4d6
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Statistics
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Str 17, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +10; CMD 22
Feats Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (battleaxe)
Traits indomitable faith, reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 to jump), Bluff +10, Diplomacy +14, Disguise +10, Escape Artist +3, Intimidate +4, Linguistics +5, Perception +11, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +14, Swim +4
Note:Sense Motive and Diplomacy are at a +10 when in combat mode
Languages Common, Elven, Gnome
SQ trapfinding +3
Other Gear +1 shadow breastplate, +1 light steel quickdraw shield, +1 battleaxe, mwk composite longbow (+3 Str), amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, hemp rope (50 ft.), masterwork backpack, mess kit, pot, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 2122 in gems (worth 2,122 gp), 2,122 gp
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Special Abilities
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Improved Shield Bash You still get your shield bonus while using Shield Bash.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sneak Attack +4d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +3 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain Dex bonus to AC when flat-footed.
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Virgil is has decided to take the law into his own hands when people circumvent justice.
social persona LG: politican who realizes the law will not help those in need
combat persona LE: vigiliante who does what the law will not and is not trying to do
2 talent Combat Skill(improved initiative)
4 talent Signature Weapon grants weapon focus and later weapon specialization
6 talent Shield of Fury grants improved shield bash and virtually give TWF
The base class has a few charisma base abilities, but with the avenger specialization getting additional fighter feats, and another talent that gives twf I went that route. That meant no room to boost charisma, which I dont think I will miss anyway. The circlet of persuasion and the ability to add +4 to the social(non combat) version of the character make up for me taking a -1 to the modifier.
Armor Silence is not a bad talent at lower levels, but once I can get mithral armor or celestial armor, which I can do within the rules I would not need it. I will just eat the penalty for the armor I currently have until I can afford it.
Combat Skill which just grants more combat feats is the only other talent I would really bother taking, other than the ones I already chose.
I can't disarm magical traps so I wont bother with disable device as a skill.
Also despite the stat block saying rogue, this is not a rogue. I just used the rogue as the chassis, and made changes in herolab to account for differences.
Since the stalker is more likely to be the one sneaking around and using acrobatics I think it needs the armor silence and armor skin talents more.
I can see the avenger doing ok in a game, but the stalker is in trouble IMO.
Also if I could replace feats with talents I would see feats winning from hear on out unless Paizo comes up with some good talents. The ones in the book are nice flavor-wise, but they seem to be circumstantial. I kept thinking to myself how many times has this come up in all the times I have been gaming or GM'ing, and then I decided to not take that talent.
I will do the stalker tomorrow unless someone beats me to it.
PS: Officially the talents are winning, but I did use them for feats, so take what you will from that. I see combat skill being used to get more TWF and shield feats if I had continued this. Otherwise skill focus stealth and other stealth feats would likely have been picked up.
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Sure. It's pretty simple, really. Many of the talents are built to be more effective than a feat. Even setting aside spellcasting, there are options like signature weapon that are worth two feats for the cost of one talent. Some previous Extra _____ feats have also been better than other feats, but we'd rather not continue that unfortunate trend, especially since the vigilante will have a really large number of options.No.Logan would you mind expanding on this "no". Saying "no" won't make the idea go away. If you have some behind the scene reasons that have not been revealed that would be nice to know, even if you can't give us details on it.This is a cat that's already out of the bag. "Many of the talents are built to be more effective than a feat" isn't a fair comparison anymore. It's what the 'extra' feats gets you and vigilante talents aren't better than those.
If you are just going it think of the other 'extra' feats as unfortunate mistakes but leave them in place you are in effect penalizing the vigilante because it came out too late. It relegates them to a 'second class' class that doesn't get the same benefit from it's feats. This is particularly clear for the casting varieties that are already tossing 1/2 their talents away on casting before they can pick fun stuff while the oracle is sitting there with full casting and as many extra revelations as they want...
And as a side question, when did the 'extra' feats become an 'unfortunate trend? The last hard cover has extra feats in it so when did they become badwrongfun?
I only see the extra ___ being pick up once or twice. Other than that feats still seem to get picked. If the common situation was "extra _____" almost every time I would understand how it was an issue. I am with you on this one graystone. I don't see why it is an issue.
Maybe Warlock should have spellcasting divorced from Talents, set up as a 4-level caster instead.
Could Extra Vigilante Talent be justified then?
I think that would work for the warlock and zealot instead of having them taking talents to get access to casting. It makes it seem like a "tax talent" to me. Just give them the casting and some nice talents.
Even when you take away the casting talents the talents for the zealot are not really impressive IMHO. Some are just ok, but I dont know if I would trade them for feats. I definitely don't see myself taking more than 4 of them once you get the casting out of the way.
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I only see the extra ___ being pick up once or twice. Other than that feats still seem to get picked. If the common situation was "extra _____" almost every time I would understand how it was an issue. I am with you on this one graystone. I don't see why it is an issue.
Myself I only see them picked at low level to help fill out a concept or a multiclass that's not advancing that class. Never as a big rush to them. The most I've ever seen is myself on a high level investigator and that was more for flavor than power. learning to track isn't a HUGE buff after all.
From my perspective, unless the final talents are planed to be solidly superior to revelations and the like, it's just punitive to single out the vigilante as the only class that can't round out it's options by spending feats like all the others that have similar options have. A can't stress enough that the oracle can have 3 revelations at 1st level. That means they can start with their casting stat to Armor Class and CMD, a Bonded Mount and Add all summon nature's ally spells to their spell list along with Animals within 30 feet receiving a bonus on all saving throws equal to your casting stat. Are any of the options for the vigilante better than this? If not, power isn't the reason to exclude the option for an 'extra' feat.
On spells for talents, it's seem less of a tax if the talents gave you something else. In another thread, I suggested adding a reduction to ASF to the warlock to make it more palatable and deal with the issue of having medium armor prof but taking ASF.
I'm not sure what to add to the zealots.
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I think such a feat should absolutely exist. Yes, it would usually be more powerful than your average feat. But most of the extra ___ feats are and IMO should be. These abilities are something fairly unique to your class. I see them as something that are more powerful than feats because everyone gets feats, but only a specific group of people get these abilities. That is the balancing act that makes them on-par with feats. That you have to be a member of a certain class to get them. A class that comes with features you (hopefully) have to incorporate into your character flavor and mechanics.
Mechanically the only balancing factor in limiting them would either be multiclassing implications (specifically dipping for an powers you can make super OP with other classes) or being vastly more powerful than comparable feats.
And in this instance, none of the unique abilities are more powerful than say, a revelation. Yes, the casting talents are powerful, but for a single-classed vigilante they are a heavy drain on talents (making a demand for such a feat), and for dipping they all are dip-proofed because the really good ones need 8 levels to come out. As far as being more powerful than a feat, buying this with a feat is essentially paying to have more of your only really useful class features (talents). You are already behind on features when held up against Magus/Inquisitor, and now you are behind on feats because you tried playing catch up.
Mystic Bolt might be strong, but it has a level requirement and scales with level, making it an unsavory dip choice. And even after that all it does is add a neat damage ability that low-grade resistance makes meager at best.
Those seem to be the strongest ones people have been mentioning. As for others, many are bonus feats+a little, which makes since for a feat that a relatively small percent of characters can choose, and most are level dependent (with either scaling damage or DC reliancy or new abilities at higher levels. So the only huge probelem is now that they are more powerful than some feats (and some of them like Armor silence are objectively weaker). The ones that are more powerful than feats don't look much more powerful than the Extra Revelation feat.
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Or maybe the Warlock and Zealot get proper 6th-level casting and give up half of their talents automatically. Then there wouldn't be any casting-advancing talents.Maybe Warlock should have spellcasting divorced from Talents, set up as a 4-level caster instead.
Could Extra Vigilante Talent be justified then?
How is that very fair compared to the Magus, the Inquisitor, or the Alchemist? Those classes get full 6 level casting AND a wall of class abilities...
And again, without a Extra Talent feat, the caster focus guys are shafted. Mark talks about how there will be a bunch more talents but what does it matter? You literally have 100 talents and it would not matter because in order for the caster classes to simply do what other classes can do without a thought, they have to literally waste half of their talents...
Oh and if Arcane Armor training is another talent it just gets worse...
just to do what a Bard or Magus can do they have to get:
Arcane Training II
Arcane Training III
Arcane Training IV
Arcane Training V
Arcane Training VI
(theoretical) Armor Training talent I
(and if they make a medium armor one) Armor training talent II
So that is 5 for sure and another 1 just to do what a magus can do without a thought... oh and the magus gets spell combat, spellstrike, All of his Arcana, and Knowledge Pool... oh and hsi arcane pool... So how is this even remotely fair? Oh! and to top it all off! You have even less spells per day! So even after wasting all your talents, you still STILL be a worse caster than even other caster...
Oh and Zealot has it even worse... He has to get:
Divine Training II
Divine Training III
Divine Training IV
Divine Training V
Divine Training VI
Domain
Just to begin to pretend to be a Inquisitor. Atleast with Warlock vs Magus/Bard you can MAYBE say the Warlock is pulling off the Wizard Spell list but the Zealot is pulling from the INQUISITOR spell list. He is drawing from the same spell list and he is all around WORSE than an inquisitor... I mean, he is almost strictly worse than the inquisitor all around. The inquisitor already gets buffs to social skills also, has full casting without having to waste anything, gets is judgements, and bane, AND teamwork feats (that it doesn't even need to meet the prereqs for to utilize in combat), AND a massive skill list. The only thing the Zealot has over the Inquisitor is full martial weapon proficiency...
Honestly, the tax on spells is just unnecesary and will force those two to being relegated to second fiddle to all the other 6-level casters running around (and with the inclusion of Occult Adventures, there are ALOT of 6-level casters now...)
Or maybe the Warlock and Zealot get proper 6th-level casting and give up half of their talents automatically. Then there wouldn't be any casting-advancing talents.Maybe Warlock should have spellcasting divorced from Talents, set up as a 4-level caster instead.
Could Extra Vigilante Talent be justified then?
This sounds absolutely terrible to me. I'd rather have four level casting then six and only half my talents.
6 level casting is over done. This is a unique experience. I'll probably play this class again and again and never get all six levels of casting. If I wanted that I'd just play an already established 6 level caster.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or maybe the Warlock and Zealot get proper 6th-level casting and give up half of their talents automatically. Then there wouldn't be any casting-advancing talents.Maybe Warlock should have spellcasting divorced from Talents, set up as a 4-level caster instead.
Could Extra Vigilante Talent be justified then?
This sounds absolutely terrible to me. I'd rather have four level casting then six and only half my talents.
6 level casting is over done. This is a unique experience. I'll probably play this class again and again and never get all six levels of casting. If I wanted that I'd just play an already established 6 level caster.
How is 4 level casting an "unique experiance"???
You know how has 4 level casting? Full BAB martials... i.e. NOT the Vigilante. Being a 4-level casting 3/4 BAB is just gimping you for no reason...
This sounds absolutely terrible to me. I'd rather have four level casting then six and only half my talents.
6 level casting is over done. This is a unique experience. I'll probably play this class again and again and never get all six levels of casting. If I wanted that I'd just play an already established 6 level caster.
You can, just don't take the 5th and 6th level talents.
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I think James is suggesting that if you were to limit the class to 4th level casting it would not have to give up half of it's talents.
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I think James is suggesting that if you were to limit the class to 4th level casting it would not have to give up half of it's talents.
And I am suggesting that you don't need to give up half of your talents already.
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Honestly why are people even considering limiting it to 4 level casting? The only 4 level casters are FULL BAB CLASSES. You know, things like the Paladin and the Bloodrager. Unless they plan on buffing the Vigilante to a Full BAB class, being a 4 level caster will just make this class pretty much just bad all around.
