First, if the paladin falls, he's basically a fighter without bonus feats. They can hold out through a couple encounters while they get an atonement.
Second, even in a morally gray campaign, a paladin can work. It just depends on how dickish the GM is (see "things that the GM does to the player" above) and how strictly the game treats alignment. A good paladin should generally be able to solve tricky problems even in morally gray campaigns. A campaign where lots of goblin aren't evil and you find a bunch of goblin babies? Take them to an orphanage, or foist them off on an NPC you trust for the time being. The GM him/herself should be offering solutions like this. Because, again, situations like that are things the GM does to the paladin. They're deliberately inserted moral dilemmas.
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and a paladin forces a DM to toss out any campaign that heavily plays with shades of grey. Because alignment. And the gunslinger necessitates a GM having gun technology to make sense, which may significantly alter campaign settings
The social persona is going to be attending social galas, running his business, etc. I don't know why he would be meeting with Barbarian warlords, or prowling the streets at night. And I...
I very much believe those are two vastly different issues.
A lot of paladin falling comes down to what the GM determines as failing the paladin code. And gunslinger comes down to flavor. Targeting wizard spellbooks is awkward and again something that has to specifically initiated by a GM with the wizard in mind. "Ambush the party as they go through the city" hits the social vigilante hard and isn't really the GM trying to do anything, it is just the nature of the vigilante having the option to become near useless for combat as a class feature.
For vigilante, if you try to do social things while running around with a party, you are asking the GM to not throw anything combat related at you because you have turned yourself into an NPC class.
From a different perspective, if I were setting up a vigilante villain, he would be not threatening what so ever by himself as his social identity and the way adventures work out, part of the adventure would be working out that this bad guy has two identities, one of which is highly dangerous and well prepared and the other who has no real class abilities backing him up. His main source of protection would end up being begging for the guards to show up.
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and a paladin forces a DM to toss out any campaign that heavily plays with shades of grey.
No, it doesn't. Paladins can do gray just fine if the DM's not a t$+~.
And the gunslinger necessitates a GM having gun technology to make sense, which may significantly alter campaign settings
Setting, perhaps, but not the encounters you're capable of running.
The social persona is going to be attending social galas, running his business, etc. I don't know why he would be meeting with Barbarian warlords, or prowling the streets at night. And I never said you can never throw fights or combat at the character when he is in social persona. But it shouldn't be a weekly occurrence. Oliver Queen is not attacked by ninjas every time he steps into Queen Consolidated or throws a party at his house.
and as mentioned elsewhere...I think the mechanics would work better as the social persona can use all his talents, but doing so in public has consequences for his persona. And there should probably be feats and items to help with that (I am thinking of the reverse flash's costume ring or Arrow's collapsible bow)
(P.S. If you can't tell I just finished three seasons of Arrow and the first season of Flash a couple of weeks ago...)
Sure, the social persona is doing all that.
What are the other three (or more) people in the party doing?
and a paladin forces a DM to toss out any campaign that heavily plays with shades of grey.No, it doesn't. Paladins can do gray just fine if the DM's not a t%&~.
And the gunslinger necessitates a GM having gun technology to make sense, which may significantly alter campaign settingsSetting, perhaps, but not the encounters you're capable of running.
The social persona is going to be attending social galas, running his business, etc. I don't know why he would be meeting with Barbarian warlords, or prowling the streets at night. And I never said you can never throw fights or combat at the character when he is in social persona. But it shouldn't be a weekly occurrence. Oliver Queen is not attacked by ninjas every time he steps into Queen Consolidated or throws a party at his house.
and as mentioned elsewhere...I think the mechanics would work better as the social persona can use all his talents, but doing so in public has consequences for his persona. And there should probably be feats and items to help with that (I am thinking of the reverse flash's costume ring or Arrow's collapsible bow)
(P.S. If you can't tell I just finished three seasons of Arrow and the first season of Flash a couple of weeks ago...)
Sure, the social persona is doing all that.
What are the other three (or more) people in the party doing?
they're probably also at the gala, and maybe the wizard is in your bakery making magic items.
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they're probably also at the gala, and maybe the wizard is in your bakery making magic items.
Wait, I've read this thread. Are these addictive cupcakes? Because I thought we agreed that those were evil.
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So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else.
But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
And you don't see anything wrong with this?
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Yup. It's baggage. Baggage that's best left to comic books where the author can cater the story to best work around the social limitations.
What's really going to happen:
Oh a fight broke out and you're stuck in your social suit and tie? lol at you. Sorry we're not all going to wait around while you change into your tights.The thing is...my take is that the DM should not be continually putting the player in situation where he needs the vigilante to fight in his social persona. that is the same kind of nonsense that I think is the equivalent of DM's that constantly attack/remove a wizard's spellbook, or make a paladin fall. If that is happening regularly to a vigilante player, that is the DM's fault, not a design flaw of the class
The class works with the assumption that most of the time, you will head into a dungeon or enemy base in vigilante mode.
No, this is not AT ALL the same thing.
Making a Paladin fall or destroying a Wizard's spellbook are things that the GM does to the player.
The Vigilante, on the other hand, forces the GM not to do certain things instead.
Can't do ambushes on the party in the middle of the street, or the middle of the night...or any time.
Can't ever have a social situation that turns into a combat. No tense situations with the Barbarian Warlord or whatever where saying the wrong thing or flubbing a Diplomacy/Bluff check can set them off.
And so much more!
If a class requires the campaign to be designed around him it is poorly designed.
A GM can certainly still do those things. They just might make it a little easier a fight than if the vigilante were in night mode. Social characters can still use their feats and base powers.
It probably makes for more interesting ambush encounters than "you were all asleep"
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So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else.But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
And you don't see anything wrong with this?
It makes for an interesting dilemma actually. Does the Barbarian cause this negotiation to go poorly, or can the social vigilante save the day? Can the party take out the scum now, or should they ambush them later when the vigilante is powered up?
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So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else.But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
And you don't see anything wrong with this?
you took my comment wayyyyyy to seriously.
it's more like the social campaign is a campaign that draws out vigilantes.
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So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
...which is why it's in the social campaign sourcebook.
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.
Not in the slightest. In the worst case scenario - a highly-mobile campaign, where the PCs rarely stop anywhere for more than a day or two - he loses one of his class features. Otherwise, when he's got time, he can move his renown around while the wizard is crafting.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else.
...because he's suddenly without his martial weapon proficiency and BAB? His light or medium armor?
Are fighters not allowed to get ambushed at night unless they have a way to sleep in armor?
But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
Setting aside the issue that "social encounters" tend to be solo encounters for the party face regardless, how the party handles their vigilante companion is likely to vary significantly from vigilante to vigilante; it's certainly not something that the game forces on us. Even beyond the false dilemma, the idea that the vigilante persona and the social persona know each other and associate with the same set of people is actually incredibly common in the source material (is Seoni in love with Miles Castle, the wealthy patron of the party, or with the dashing avenger Whiplash who leads their dungeon explorations? Oh, if only she knew they were the same man!), so I don't really understand why "the partying [hanging] around the vigilante's social persona" is such a terrible thing.
And you don't see anything wrong with this?
...Not so far, no.
...because he's suddenly without his martial weapon proficiency and BAB? His light or medium armor?
THEY MIGHT RECOGNIZE HIM!
wait that doesn't do anything...
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...which is why it's in the social campaign sourcebook.So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
Why would you design a whole class for a single type of campaign? Especially when it doesn't even get much of anything that helps it in social situations?
Inquisitors, Bards, all full spellcasters or hell, anyone with skill points are just as good at social situations as the Vigilante...except the Vigilante has to have a persona devoted to it...so it's not as flexible as those classes.
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.Not in the slightest. In the worst case scenario - a highly-mobile campaign, where the PCs rarely stop anywhere for more than a day or two - he loses one of his class features. Otherwise, when he's got time, he can move his renown around while the wizard is crafting.
Renown, Loyal Aid, and, let's face it, Dual Identity. Your character would have to be an idiot to use his social guise anywhere you might get attacked.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else....because he's suddenly without his martial weapon proficiency and BAB? His light or medium armor?
Are fighters not allowed to get ambushed at night unless they have a way to sleep in armor?
Ah yes, that glorious 3/4 BaB and ZERO CLASS FEATURES.
You fight like an Expert in social guise.
Setting aside the issue that "social encounters" tend to be solo encounters for the party face regardless, how the party handles their vigilante companion is likely to vary significantly from vigilante to vigilante; it's certainly not something that the game forces on us. Even beyond the false dilemma, the idea that the vigilante persona and the social persona know each other and associate with the same set of people is actually incredibly common in the source material (is Seoni in love with Miles Castle, the wealthy patron of the party, or with the dashing avenger Whiplash who leads their dungeon explorations? Oh, if only she knew they were the same man!), so I don't really understand why "the partying [hanging] around the vigilante's social persona" is such a terrible thing.But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
Again...what does the Vigilante even bring to the table in his social guise?
A +4 bonus to a SINGLE social skill?
Why not roll with a Bard, who can cast Cultural Adaptation or Honeyed Tongue and get arguably bigger benefits than the Vigilantes whopping TWO social class features. While still having the same amount of skills per level and not requiring 5 minutes before he can properly contribute to a combat.
The Vigilante isn't a party face, he's a character with a good number of skills per level who is hobbled by being an NPC class during social situations.
The Social Persona brings an entire suite of abilities that are dependent on other parts of Ultimate Intrigue and therefore not in this playtest.
Yes, Rynjin, I know what you're thinking, and I'm thinking it too.
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We've been explicitly told that there will be more to the social side of the character in the final version than what we have now. You're asking why the car radio doesn't work when we're trying to do a brake test.
I wasn't aware of that, but now I'm asking a different question.
How are we supposed to perform a brake test if we don't have THE REST OF THE CAR?
I can mash those brakes all I want but I can't tell how they work unless there's an actual vehicle for them to stop.
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I think this playtest is to see how it works in combat because we can test that out fine, thus them giving us the combat talents and not the social talents.
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Chess Pwn's got it. We're making sure we can't break (brake?) the combat side of the class, so they've only given us the combat pieces to work on.
That said, I think it would incredibly cool if each talent choice actually gave you two talent choices - one social, one vigilante - that switch off as you swap personas. There's no sign of that in the playtest at the moment (and why would there be, since we have no social talents to playtest) but I think that might make the identity make a great deal more impact on the character.
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That would make it more palatable, but I still don't like the length of time necessary to change. I really think if it were a Full-Round action it would be fine. Or even a Standard (so you can race inside a closet first).
If a Druid can turn into a 30 foot tall death machine in that span of time, by god, the Vigilante should be able to change costumes.
Maybe set up the mode shift so that in different conditions he can shift personas at different speeds. Like if the vigilante can get concealment, he can drop his switch to full round?
We've been explicitly told that there will be more to the social side of the character in the final version than what we have now. You're asking why the car radio doesn't work when we're trying to do a brake test.
What I have seen said is that there will be social talents available across specializations, but I would argue that doesn't mean a lot since every social talent you take is going to eat away at the effectiveness of the vigilante. If the vigilante needs to spend all his talents to be an effective vigilante, then there being social options is not incredibly useful.
Maybe have it full round at first level then eventually standard/move/swift as you level up? Maybe a "change in plain sight" ability or feat?
I agree. After all, how long does it take Prince Adam to transform into He-Man?
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I think a big part of the issue is that in most Pathfinder settings, there's really no reason to have a "social persona" because there is no social stigma associated with adventuring. Typically, there's nothing keeping, say, a level 10 fighter or wizard from getting invites to the best parties. Merely possessing dangerous class features isn't something that needs hiding, so a mechanic dedicated to hiding it feels useless.
Somehow, I get the impression that a whole lot of Vigilantes are going to end up hearing practically everyone they adventure with quote Wayne Knight.
"Hey! Hey, it's Dodson. We've got Dodson here! See, no one cares. Nice hat. What are you trying to look like, a vigilante?" (takes hat)
"Nooo! I can't cast 2nd-level spells without it!"
What happens when you kill a high level Vigilante in his social mode? He has far fewer of his abilities available to him, so it wasn't as much of a challenge. On the other hand, he is a high level character.
Do you kill this random nobody in the crowd and receive enough XP to level multiple times? Can you deduce that the random nobody wasn't a random nobody? Does the Vigilante need an ability at higher levels saying he only counts as a lower level character for the purpose of how many XP he's worth?
"Alright, Masked Avenger! I know you're in this crowd, and I will find you. Guard! Kill the peasant right in front of you, now!"
(Guard kills peasant)
"Did you level up? No matter. Next guard, next peasant! I don't have all day!"
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What happens when you kill a high level Vigilante in his social mode? He has far fewer of his abilities available to him, so it wasn't as much of a challenge. On the other hand, he is a high level character.
Do you kill this random nobody in the crowd and receive enough XP to level multiple times? Can you deduce that the random nobody wasn't a random nobody? Does the Vigilante need an ability at higher levels saying he only counts as a lower level character for the purpose of how many XP he's worth?
"Alright, Masked Avenger! I know you're in this crowd, and I will find you. Guard! Kill the peasant right in front of you, now!"
(Guard kills peasant)
"Did you level up? No matter. Next guard, next peasant! I don't have all day!"
Back-deducing identities from XP gain is a little Red Mage for me. NPCs might not even use XP anyway.
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Back-deducing identities from XP gain is a little Red Mage for me. NPCs might not even use XP anyway.What happens when you kill a high level Vigilante in his social mode? He has far fewer of his abilities available to him, so it wasn't as much of a challenge. On the other hand, he is a high level character.
Do you kill this random nobody in the crowd and receive enough XP to level multiple times? Can you deduce that the random nobody wasn't a random nobody? Does the Vigilante need an ability at higher levels saying he only counts as a lower level character for the purpose of how many XP he's worth?
"Alright, Masked Avenger! I know you're in this crowd, and I will find you. Guard! Kill the peasant right in front of you, now!"
(Guard kills peasant)
"Did you level up? No matter. Next guard, next peasant! I don't have all day!"
Of course it's a real science, and yes, I am an expert in it. I have two relevant degrees.
I agree. After all, how long does it take Prince Adam to transform into He-Man?
Almost a minute.
I agree. After all, how long does it take Prince Adam to transform into He-Man?Almost a minute.
True, but remember that he's changing both his identity and Cringer's. So we're looking at thirty seconds for He-Man by himself, right?
I think the social identities social graces bonuses should scale rather than staying permanently at +4. Since it is one of the only bonuses the social identity possesses, and even if they will be getting social talents (which I really really hope are going to be in addition to vigilante talents), the social grace bonuses are very specific but lacking once you get a few levels.
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Of course it's a real science, and yes, I am an expert in it. I have two relevant degrees.Back-deducing identities from XP gain is a little Red Mage for me. NPCs might not even use XP anyway.What happens when you kill a high level Vigilante in his social mode? He has far fewer of his abilities available to him, so it wasn't as much of a challenge. On the other hand, he is a high level character.
Do you kill this random nobody in the crowd and receive enough XP to level multiple times? Can you deduce that the random nobody wasn't a random nobody? Does the Vigilante need an ability at higher levels saying he only counts as a lower level character for the purpose of how many XP he's worth?
"Alright, Masked Avenger! I know you're in this crowd, and I will find you. Guard! Kill the peasant right in front of you, now!"
(Guard kills peasant)
"Did you level up? No matter. Next guard, next peasant! I don't have all day!"
Experiencology and experienconomy?
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I was going through the playtest in preparation for a game with the class and someone mentioned to me about the 'baggage' of the dual personality. It does feel very much like something a player isn't going to typically use in the majority of games (esp. Pathfinder Society) so how could that be fixed?
Well, why not have the social personality be built similarly to the vigilante specialization with multiple choices, talents, and so on? OF course I wouldn't make the 'social' identity as powerful as the vigilante one but I also would make it tempting for the player to use it more often. Maybe during the day my character acts like a priest (maybe some light healing or spells?) while he becomes the warlock at night?
I'm thinking, for the social persona to be attractive, either you need your talents, or your social persona needs to some sort of socialeidolon.
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So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else.But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
And you don't see anything wrong with this?
No I don't... The Vigilante isn't a character I'd have a player make for a standard orc busting dungeon door campaign. I expected that you would have the wisdom to realise that the playtest only covers a tip of the iceberg that is Ultimate Intrique and that the class would make sense in the context of a campaign created UI style. It's a bit absurd to knock it down because it's a bad fit for standard dungeoneering.
Quite frankly, if I were to have Vigilantes in a campaign, it would be one where all the players are Vigilantes. The ideal campaign for this is much 30's noir strip heros as 4 color comics. That said I think there are a few PFS scenarios that are ideal for this use... the Blakros social events come to mind.
except as a class and in the playtest the class can be picked for a variety of campaigns and in any setting. A player may want to pick a vigilante for a standard orc busting dungeon door campaign. And then the issues he brings up are valid. Are you going to change the campaign just because he brought a vigilante?
You even support his stance by saying that if there's going to be any vigilantes then all the players would need to be vigilantes.
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So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else.But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
And you don't see anything wrong with this?
No I don't... The Vigilante isn't a character I'd have a player make for a standard orc busting dungeon door campaign. I expected that you would have the wisdom to realise that the playtest only covers a tip of the iceberg that is Ultimate Intrique and that the class would make sense in the context of a campaign created UI style. It's a bit absurd to knock it down because it's a bad fit for standard dungeoneering.
Quite frankly, if I were to have Vigilantes in a campaign, it would be one where all the players are Vigilantes. The ideal campaign for this is much 30's noir strip heros as 4 color comics. That said I think there are a few PFS scenarios that are ideal for this use... the Blakros social events come to mind.
I agree about the tip of the iceberg, but that doesn't make the current feedback irrelevant.
1: Saying the class is poorly designed because it only works in a certain type of campaign is a problem. If a class needs to be catered to, archetype bandaged, or needs to ignore a major selling point to be effective there is a problem. Which is the question "Why not play another class with disguise and bluff as class skills and flavor it as a vigilante?"
2: What we have to work with indicates that the class is stronger in dungeon adventures. In social adventures, you trade a decent bonus to a few skills for all of your usefulness in a fight beyond extra target and flank buddy. So if a social encounter goes.wrong (by failing skill checks or an ambush having been set), you need to have your friends keep them at bay for five minutes to do anything other than swing like an expert and maybe aid another. If the bonus were huge and to all skills, maybe this wouldn't be as much as a problem but as it stands the bonus means you are only really better than the less MAD classes if you really pump charisma, which you can't do as easily because of the MADness of the class. In a dungeon adventure you might have to give up the main point of the class, but at least you are less likely to be useless.
Also, while we do know the class is getting buffed socially, this is a playtest. Pointing out the weaknesses that need to be buffed up is part of the process. Saying 'its getting better' isn't helping the people making it better improve it. Saying 'this needs an improvement based on what we have now' IMO, is. If we can't see the other 1/2 of the class we should probably assume that this is all even if it isn't so we can say with authority what UI needs to help the class.
I don't suppose my ideas were especially helpful were they? Alas! XD
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So the Vigilante by its very nature forces:
-The campaign to be a heavily social campaign
-The campaign to be primarily set in a single city.
-The campaign to almost never have social situations devolve into...anything else.But wait! Now we have a choice:
-The rest of the characters in the party to hang around the Vigilante's social persona in everything he does.
or
-The Vigilante to be in his own little solo game apart from everyone else.
And you don't see anything wrong with this?
No I don't... The Vigilante isn't a character I'd have a player make for a standard orc busting dungeon door campaign. I expected that you would have the wisdom to realise that the playtest only covers a tip of the iceberg that is Ultimate Intrique and that the class would make sense in the context of a campaign created UI style. It's a bit absurd to knock it down because it's a bad fit for standard dungeoneering.
Quite frankly, if I were to have Vigilantes in a campaign, it would be one where all the players are Vigilantes. The ideal campaign for this is much 30's noir strip heros as 4 color comics. That said I think there are a few PFS scenarios that are ideal for this use... the Blakros social events come to mind.
I work with the information I have. If someone gives you half a book and says "Review this", then "This story is incomplete" is a valid criticism.
Moreover, I don't particularly think a character made for one kind of campaign is very well designed in the first place, especially when the class (with the information we have) is not any better at social encounters than any other class we have currently.
Given that the only half of the class we really have is how it fares in combat, it's a fair criticism to say its Dual Identity is both a hindrance to that combat role (you're either in your Vigilante guise, or you're not participating in combat) and doesn't give any noticeable benefits for the role it's SUPPOSED to fill as well.
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If it were Full Round from 1st and then progressively faster as you leveled (coming up to something like a Swift action so long as you're unobserved or have Total Concealment or have something else that blocks Line of Sight) it wouldn't be so burdensome (along with having the Social identity actually DO something, of course).
The class has a lot of potential to be really good, and I think it can fit well alongside the existing classes, letting people play Zorro and such. But all Zorro had to do was tie a bandanna with holes cut out over his face and suddenly he was unrecognizable and ready to fight evil. The class itself needs to represent that.
Embrace the camp!
If this class makes it to my table I'll probably scrap the dual identity rule as it stands now.
Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
For a thread that has certainly meandered quite a bit into a number of different topics, I have certainly found it informative on a few fronts. That said, let me add a few thoughts before moving on to some other topics on the boards.
1. We get that the split personas may not fit well with everyone's campaign. We knew this in the same way that guns don't fit well with everyone's campaign. Because a concept is a bit more niche does not mean it is not a concept we will explore. If you run the sort of campaign that treats any visits to town as downtime to sell gear and buy stuff before returning to the dungeon, you are certainly right, this class will not perform very well. That does not mean we are going to rewrite it to fit that campaign.
2. That said, we also get that we could make a class a bit more broad in terms of the use of its personas. This draft is certainly very spy/secret focused and I am not sure that it needs to be from a mechanical sense. That is some great feedback and I am interested to see where that takes us.
3. We are very aware that there are some timing issue with the class and some ability access issues (that are persona dependent). While it is still too early for me to make any predictions on this front, rest assured that the message has gotten through and we are looking at the issues.
Thats about all I got for this thread for now..
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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I'm thinking about actual masked adventurers:
Batman - Has fought in his mundane identity, has used multiple non-Batman identities, can change into costume in definitely under a minute in most incarnations
Zorro - Actually a really good fencer, to the extent Don Diego embarrasses his father with his professed lack of physical courage. At the end of the Mark of Zorro, he is cornered and identified. He immediately fights with full Zorro powers.
The Shadow - Uses hypnotism to facilitate quick identity changes.
The Scarlet Pimpernel - A quick change artist who uses a variety of mundane disguises.
None of them have a five minute cooldown.
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Hey there folks,
For a thread that has certainly meandered quite a bit into a number of different topics, I have certainly found it informative on a few fronts. That said, let me add a few thoughts before moving on to some other topics on the boards.
1. We get that the split personas may not fit well with everyone's campaign. We knew this in the same way that guns don't fit well with everyone's campaign. Because a concept is a bit more niche does not mean it is not a concept we will explore. If you run the sort of campaign that treats any visits to town as downtime to sell gear and buy stuff before returning to the dungeon, you are certainly right, this class will not perform very well. That does not mean we are going to rewrite it to fit that campaign.
As I pointed out above, it's not just a matter of the class not being useful in a typical dungeon crawl, it's also not useful in many social situations due to the Dual Identity being more of a hindrance than a help.
Even in town, combats can happen. Social situations can devolve, certain random things can happen (Like, I dunno, a chimera escaping from a cage during a parade, hint hint wink), you could get mugged, whatever.
The Bard can whip out his rapier and swish swish poke the thing to death while humming a jaunty tune and still rock the social encounter later in the day with judicious use of Prestidigitation and a winning smile, even having an archetype that lets him do it as a Standard action at 5th level, 8 levels before the Vigilante can do it as a Full Round, with PENALTIES.
Hell, even the ROGUE, one of the worst social skill-ers of the skill monkey classes can nab Quick Disguise and change from a 20 year old human male to a 103 year old female halfling in the time it takes you to slap on a domino mask as the Vigilante, creating much the same effect as far as theme goes, and losing none of his combat ability in the process. The Rogue doesn't suddenly forget how to shank someone in the kidneys just because hes in disguise, and neither should the Vigilante.
The concept isn't "a bit more niche" the concept is so niche it might as well not exist because there already exist classes from the CORE RULEBOOK who can fulfill that niche better.
The Dual Identity as-is serves no practical purpose other than to fix a problem that never existed (having a social character with a secret identity who can kick ass). There are already characters who can do that, and don't have a period where they're suddenly unable to use their abilities.
Let's be honest. The whole "I forgot how to cast spells because I left my mask at home!" thing is kinda goofy no matter what, and doesn't follow any particular narrative. In fact, it's almost something new. The only work I can think of right now that even implies that [/bold]"powers come from the identity"[/b] (not the costume, but the identity itself) is Underdog. Oh, and Shazaam/Captain Marvel, sort of. I'm sure there are more, but my point is, secret identities don't have to be connected to class ability swaps.Actually.... This can be said of all the superheros. Bruce Wayne finds himself at a party that has just been overrun by jokers thugs, sure he looks for the next possible opening to run off and change, but when confronted by a thug face to face Bruce Wayne takes the hit, or stab, or Shot. because.... HE DOESN'T WANT TO GIVE AWAY THE IDENTITY. which in turn brings us back to "THATS THE RISK YOU TAKE FOR WALKING AROUND AS YOUR SOCIAL IDENTITY". Roleplay it.
So hang on, if I'm here to save Mister Widoworphanpuppy (a nice elderly neighbor who's about to be sacrificed to the Demon Lord of Youtube Comments or whatever), but I'm in my social identity, I "take the hit" and let myself go down rather than save the guy? I put my own secret identity over the life of an innocent?
God, forget the alignment swapping, Bruce Wayne and Batman are both huge dicks.
Hey there folks,
For a thread that has certainly meandered quite a bit into a number of different topics, I have certainly found it informative on a few fronts.
Oops. My effort to waste everyone's time has failed. :(
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The concept isn't "a bit more niche" the concept is so niche it might as well not exist because there already exist classes from the CORE RULEBOOK who can fulfill that niche better.
I can attest to one of my local players having already pulled this trick with his Ninja, Wayne Bruce and his loyal servant Kouhai.
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Hey there folks,
For a thread that has certainly meandered quite a bit into a number of different topics, I have certainly found it informative on a few fronts. That said, let me add a few thoughts before moving on to some other topics on the boards.
1. We get that the split personas may not fit well with everyone's campaign. We knew this in the same way that guns don't fit well with everyone's campaign. Because a concept is a bit more niche does not mean it is not a concept we will explore. If you run the sort of campaign that treats any visits to town as downtime to sell gear and buy stuff before returning to the dungeon, you are certainly right, this class will not perform very well. That does not mean we are going to rewrite it to fit that campaign.
Also, even for an intrigue game, unless the whole team is vigilantes, there is the netrunner problem. Effectively the vigilante has a mode that he can go off in and do things that help the party (gather information, etc) but to do that (without getting caught) he has to leave the party behind. This means that everyone else sits around for half an hour while the GM and one player go off an play by themselves. (And in the worse case scenario, the vigilante and the GM go off, play by themselves for half an hour, and when they come back the vigilante is dead and no one else knows that happened.)
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Lead Designer
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Hey there folks,
For a thread that has certainly meandered quite a bit into a number of different topics, I have certainly found it informative on a few fronts. That said, let me add a few thoughts before moving on to some other topics on the boards.
1. We get that the split personas may not fit well with everyone's campaign. We knew this in the same way that guns don't fit well with everyone's campaign. Because a concept is a bit more niche does not mean it is not a concept we will explore. If you run the sort of campaign that treats any visits to town as downtime to sell gear and buy stuff before returning to the dungeon, you are certainly right, this class will not perform very well. That does not mean we are going to rewrite it to fit that campaign.
As I pointed out above, it's not just a matter of the class not being useful in a typical dungeon crawl, it's also not useful in many social situations due to the Dual Identity being more of a hindrance than a help.
Even in town, combats can happen. Social situations can devolve, certain random things can happen (Like, I dunno, a chimera escaping from a cage during a parade, hint hint wink), you could get mugged, whatever.
The Bard can whip out his rapier and swish swish poke the thing to death while humming a jaunty tune and still rock the social encounter later in the day with judicious use of Prestidigitation and a winning smile, even having an archetype that lets him do it as a Standard action at 5th level, 8 levels before the Vigilante can do it as a Full Round, with PENALTIES.
Hell, even the ROGUE, one of the worst social skill-ers of the skill monkey classes can nab Quick Disguise and change from a 20 year old human male to a 103 year old female halfling in the time it takes you to slap on a domino mask as the Vigilante, creating much the same effect as far as theme goes, and losing none of his combat ability in the process. The Rogue doesn't suddenly forget how to shank someone in the kidneys just...
I think the problem here is a matter of the switch timing and that is certainly something we are looking into. I think many of the problems mentioned here go away with a few simple changes.
Aside from that, we are looking to strengthen the concept of the class, not scrap it entirely because you can kinda/sorta do it some other ways. This is an avenue we have gone down before with some success. I am sure there are those that disagree (there always are), but that is not going to stop us from trying.
As always, thank you for your feedback.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
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Lead Designer
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Also, even for an intrigue game, unless the whole team is vigilantes, there is the netrunner problem. Effectively the vigilante has a mode that he can go off in and do things that help the party (gather information, etc) but to do that (without getting caught) he has to leave the party behind. This means that everyone else sits around for half an hour while the GM and one player go off an play by themselves. (And in the worse case scenario, the vigilante and the GM go off, play by themselves for half an hour, and when they come back the vigilante is dead and no one else knows that happened.)Hey there folks,
For a thread that has certainly meandered quite a bit into a number of different topics, I have certainly found it informative on a few fronts. That said, let me add a few thoughts before moving on to some other topics on the boards.
1. We get that the split personas may not fit well with everyone's campaign. We knew this in the same way that guns don't fit well with everyone's campaign. Because a concept is a bit more niche does not mean it is not a concept we will explore. If you run the sort of campaign that treats any visits to town as downtime to sell gear and buy stuff before returning to the dungeon, you are certainly right, this class will not perform very well. That does not mean we are going to rewrite it to fit that campaign.
The game already has the problem to some extent. There have always been some characters who are focused entirely upon one subset of encounters in the game. The vigilante actually attempts to bridge that problem by living in more than one type. You could certainly argue that we don't have the blend and mix of abilities quite right as of yet, but that is one of the goals of the class.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer