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Grand Lodge

Luthorne wrote:
Loyal Battle Monkey wrote:
Are we ever getting a metal kineticist to round out the five element system with fire, water, earth, and wood?
The metal kineticist is earth + earth...I don't see that changing anytime soon, if only because it would be confusing. Considering jīn was typically represented by either gold or silver, though, perhaps a gold element could be possible, though one wonders how it would distinguish itself from other elements. At least, I'm presuming you're referring to Wu Xing, since there were quite a number of five element systems...

I was referring to the five element system in game (as described by Ultimate Magic). The Wu Xing or other system that include metal could also serve as inspiration.

Besides the "metal" attacks that earth can get, what else is usually metal? Weapons, armor, equipment, and so on. Creating stuff is pretty interesting besides just throwing metal stuff at our opponent. A kineticist based on manipulating equipment and being extremely flexible would be very interesting even if it's just an archetype.

When looking at other metal archetypes or class options, we get even more stuff for fun. Metal wizards get some construct and electricity spells. Clerics give us the metal subdomain and artifice domain. Oracles give us the metal mystery.

Grand Lodge

Mark Seifter wrote:

Responding to the me signal?

I tend to agree with Ashram, Isabelle, and Luthorne (and thus with Gorbacz too, tangentially). In my scan, the only thing I didn't wholeheartedly agree with in Isabelle's analysis was the specifics she mocked up for the multiclass blast feat, which she specifically said was just a first stab, since it would be selectable by non-multiclass kineticists or potentially even with that loophole closed to make sure you multiclass, you would wind up with kineticist6/OtherDip1/kineticistMORE (expand to new elements) or kineticist/evangelist that winds up with superior blast situation to a full kineticist.

That said, some of these options could be things that could happen in some way involving archetype shenanigans (if we had the wordcount, there was one really crazy possibility not on the outline that Isabelle and I were vaguely considering attempting), but they are far beyond the scope of a feat in terms of their effect on the class's balance. In general, the Design Team have been trying to move towards a design approach where key class features are consistently better than a feat (see vigilante) to make the class identities and powers more awesome (a la vigilante talents compared to rogue talents), but what that means on the flip side is that you're not going to be using a feat to grab them, either, since that would raise the expected power level while locking characters into taking that feat as a tax to do so.

Are we ever getting a metal kineticist to round out the five element system with fire, water, earth, and wood?

Grand Lodge

The Mortonator wrote:
Loyal Battle Monkey wrote:
Slithery D wrote:
Yeah, but for underdeveloped new options. I gather many Kineticist fans want deeper options (lots more talents and especially FEATS), not just broader ones.

I can't think of anyone that would be against that!

Still waiting on metal kineticists to fill out the other elemental system. Yes, there's earth, but I believe you can make the two function very differently from each other.

I think they kinda wrote themselves into a corner of having Kineticist elements be broad. Not that that is a bad thing, just much more Avatar than say Bionicle where you could be constantly throwing out new elements. I doubt you will ever see a metal element, but maybe a alternate form of expanded element to have an increased focus in metal would work.

True, or even have an archetype that really focuses on metal equipment. Could always use a few more (or really thing for that matter).

Grand Lodge

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Slithery D wrote:
Yeah, but for underdeveloped new options. I gather many Kineticist fans want deeper options (lots more talents and especially FEATS), not just broader ones.

I can't think of anyone that would be against that!

Still waiting on metal kineticists to fill out the other elemental system. Yes, there's earth, but I believe you can make the two function very differently from each other.

Grand Lodge

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Finally, we got the red panda familiar. With an acrobatic bonus! That's enough for me to want to snag a copy.

Grand Lodge

Slithery D wrote:
Loyal Battle Monkey wrote:
So, what did the Kineticist get in this book guys? Anything fun?
Fun, but more limited and less quantity than say the Psychic or Mesmerist stuff. Basically there are areas of elemental saturation where you can go, overcome a test to attune yourself, and learn a new utility talent. (Replacing and NOT in addition to your existing ones.) Five saturations and their talents are described.

Yeah, I got my copy of the book today and was sad that there's only one new talent for the basic five elements. Could have used more than that.

Grand Lodge

So, what did the Kineticist get in this book guys? Anything fun?

Grand Lodge

Been busy with work lately but I was trying to think of how to do those other two 'bender' classes and I'd thought I would show a sort-of overview. There's still holes here and there as the ToB class is tough to determine which styles to actually use.


1 : Elemental Focus, Kinetic Blast 1d4
2 :
3 :
4 : Kinetic Blast
5 : Infusion (or Wild Talent?)
6 :
7 :
8 : Kinetic Blast
9 :
10: Infusion/Wild Talent
12: Kinetic Blast
15: Infusion/Wild Talent
16: Kinetic Blast
20: Kinetic Blast, Infusion/Wild Talent

As you can see the Mystic gets a weaker Kinetic Blast that grows more slowly. Essentially, this ability would replace the level 1 ability that a wizard or sorcerer would get. I'm debating whether or not to have Infusions for the class or just limit it to something like Wild Talents.

"Spellcasting" would simply be like normal spellcasting. Progression would be Sorcerer but I'm not too certain about how many times they should cast per day. It might work out to do 1 less at each level with a minimum of 1.

Still making the spell lists but should generally be like an Wizard Elementalist but limited to their one element. More spells would be added to account for various Avatar things and to even out the lists. For example, Life bubble for Air Benders and so on.

ToB Bender:

Level : Ability
1 : Elemental Focus, Kinetic Blast, Bending Style (two styles)
2 : Bending Style (three styles), Style talent
3 :
4 : Style Talent
5 :
6 : Style Talent
7 : Bending Style (four styles)
8 : Style Talent
9 :
10: Style Talent
12: Style Talent
14: Style Talent
16: Style Talent
18: Style Talent
20: Style Talent

Styles are to be more involved that the styles in regular Pathfinder. Starting a style is a full round action and changes how a player would act or what they could do. Styles would allow for abilities that wouldn't normally be usable, may limit what the player can do, and so on.

For example, one water style may allow the player to create a weapon from the water (think of the typical water whip or those fist spikes that Tonraq used against Zaheer). Their kinetic blast would be better, but limited by the weapon choice they used. Style Talents would allow the player to customize the style (extra range for a weapon choice, weapon specialization, etc.).

Another water style could be that water octopus-like ability that Katara used late in ATLA book 2. The player wouldn't be able to move very far or attack a great distance a turn, but could get pretty good defensive abilities, extra attacked, or increased threat range.

After styles are formulated, other abilities could be added to fill out the class itself.

Always welcome suggestions or alternative builds.

Grand Lodge

I went through the "gestalt" and Tome of Battle series. The "gestalt" could work as a narrative mechanic for someone who's effectively taking enough time (i.e. months or years) to abandon whatever they were doing before. It does make me feel that it's a last option if other things like feat trees don't work.

With the Tome of Battle, I like how some of it works but without it being open licensed, I'd rather work on an idea that could be similar. The best option I could think of is really working on styles rather than things like maneuvers. These styles would be much more game changing for the class rather than the usual styles that we've seen. Additionally, the class itself could have options like talents or infusions that allow the player to essentially customize their style to differentiate between others.

Grand Lodge

You could potentially cover some of the aspects through feats and other non-class options rather than having a character multi-class.

I think a player character that starts out as a non-bender and discovers bending could be done either with multi-classing, feat tree, or a prestige class (most likely the better option / late bloomer). I can think of Bumi that started most of his life as a soldier or vagrant before getting air bending.

Non-benders will most likely be something that comes after getting the bender types done. Part of that is that I see most people just playing benders anyways. Maybe 1 out 4 or 5 would be a non-bender.

Another way to help non-benders is to have them as the skill monkeys (6 + Int per level) compared to benders who could have their skills per level reduced to 2 + Int a level. Other options are special feats, perhaps specifically technology feats for LoK as an example, or abilities that benders wouldn't normally get.

There could be skills like Knowledge (Technology) or Use Machinery/Technology that could function like Use Magic Device for various machines and normally only a class skill for non-benders.

Always open to other options.

Grand Lodge

I was thinking about it and why not post a sort of conversion of the Tome of Battle maneuver system for a third type of bender? I haven't read through the book since about the time it was released (2006 I think) so it might be good for a bender that's more focused on specific styles rather than the universal kineticist or the glass cannon of the 'sorcerer' bender. I might take more of a cue from the psychic or arcanist though so there's more than just one stat.

From a simple look of a disposition of stats
Kineticist: Cha, with constitution being very important secondary stat and maybe a third doing something as a distant third. Not counting stuff like dexterity or strength which help in other ways (bonus to hit , carry capacity, and so on)

Sorcerer/Arcanist Savant perhaps?: Wisdom with a choice of either Int or Cha as a secondary. When I think of this character in the universe, I think of Jinora.

ToB Bender: I have to look at the class and the structure of the systems in the book but I'm guessing it's more combat oriented so maybe Constitution as a primary stat and one or two helping out in other ways? There would also need to be enough of a change because of the lack of OGL material in Tome of Battle.

This way we should have enough choices for players and different play styles too.

Grand Lodge

chbgaphicarts wrote:

This is true, but what they're getting by spending that Ki and Swift Action makes up for the loss of that extra attack.

No single Chakra makes up for the loss of that Swift Action, especially if you're not going to even be access that Chakra without having to jump through hoops to get it.

The Chakra system as it stands is just awful to the point of being honestly broken.

Replacing the Saves with Concentration checks and adding in new Feats that let you open multiple or all Chakra at once only go so far, and as they stand they don't even do that much.

I thought it was a concentration check instead of spending a Ki to open the chakras and not the saves at the end?

Remember that you need a full-round action with that swift action to get that extra attack. Remember that several Ki users (mainly monk archetypes but a few other non-monk ones too) don't even get a flurry of blows so there's no extra attack there. Maybe it was designed more for these guys than the monk who's only interested in

Granted that every ki ability is situational.

How exactly are the chakras broken? Yes, they are essentially weak from a strictly dpr (damage per round) perspective of a basic full-round attack plus an extra attack swift action. That's also from one perspective that doesn't really take into consideration other classes/archetypes.

Grand Lodge

The way the description of stats in Pathfinder, I can see physical "strength" as a mixture of strength and constitution. Constitution is the key stat for the original class so I'd lean towards that for being something that is more important. It's also used for the burning mechanic too and the HP total. I do think that the other two physical stats are important for other, non-class specific reasons like wearing armor or general athleticism.

I'd also agree on the mix of ideas of Ki with both Wisdom and Charisma. Even Intelligence can play a role in using bending from a scholarly or learning perspective. However, I think the best way to approach it is as simply as possible: one as the key stat, keeping in mind that the class does use constitution, while others can perform non-class functions that simulate mentioned effects*.

Obviously feats can be attributed to the other stats.

I've considered adding a "spellcaster" to the game as a type of alternative bender who focused more on fewer, bigger effects than the standard bender/kineticist. Of course, some numbers would have to be potentially changed and a really weak kinetic blast rather than the level 1 school options a wizard gets or the bloodline abilities (the 3 + Int/Cha filler abilities).

I think things like 'maneuvers' can simply be abstractly implied with a bending attack or utility wild talent. They may also be easier applied through either feats or specialized additions introduced in a different section.

I also with toning down certain aspects of the game and adding "bending" variants to existing abilities. One was bending defensively, which is pretty much fighting defensively. Most likely the attack would also have to have a burn limit placed on what ever kinetic blast is used but I'd have to playtest that sort of option for the class.

*There's a good chance to add the other two mental stats to the class but it would need to do something relatively simply and straight forward. For example, something like Intelligence denoting extra infusions or utilities talents and Wisdom increasing the internal buffer.

With other classes like the ranger or fighters, much of that feels like non-benderish stuff to me and I've been trying to make a generic non-bender class that can branch off to specialties like a ranger or barbarian. Much of that would allow for ease of limiting what isn't really needed for the universe or setting, as well as adding other touches.

Grand Lodge

The point is that the Ki used in the chakra is an alternative to the other, various ki powers a monk can get. I know that you cannot maintain/open chakra and do an extra attack. Not every situation is solved with the attack. It's part of the reason for many of the Ki powers that monks can get.

The argument that a monk is only a monk for spending ki on the extra attacks detracts from the other uses. We are talking about a type of class, Ki users that includes largely monks, that get a growing set of versatility for a basic feat with no real requirements. Yes, the extra attack is important for dealing damage in combat (and a few other uses depending on the type of monk) but the only thing in the game. Don't confuse the extra attack as the end all, be all of the class.

Remember too, that a few of the other ki users (only a few like the Tengu one) use Ki differently than simply getting the extra attack.

Grand Lodge

Strength feels a bit odd to me for Earth. Always felt like Constitution was the most "earth" stat among the six besides Wisdom. Solid as a rock. The other problem with one of the three physical stats as a basis for benders is that bending itself was largely more spiritually based. Typically with the yin/yang mentality, with two as positive and two as negative. Yes, I know that in that universe negative energy is very bad but I'm thinking more along the traditional lines.

For physical stats, what if there were other situations (for benders) that would be beneficial for them? Something like certain feats or infusions besides the basic things like strength for damage/hit, AC for dex, and hp for constitution?

I think we could do "races" with just the differences between the various ethnicity in the universe. These could largely be centered around non-stat bonuses as we are essentially dealing with humans and most societies we see have a good mixture of traits.

If there's a change between Pathfinder Humans and Avatar humans, I'd probably look at the other bonuses. Is there a need for the extra feat or the basic +1 hp a level or skill point? Probably not but I think it's something to look into.

I've been working almost non-stop since last week so I hope to add more on Wednesday or Friday.

Grand Lodge

chbgraphicarts wrote:
Loyal Battle Monkey wrote:
I wasn't saying to replace the saves (Fort and Will) with concentration , but use concentration as the way to open the progressively more difficult chakra stages instead of Ki. If they want to try and open more than one, you could simply have them make a larger, more difficult concentration to open multiple. Just seemed like a better alternative than the current system that requires the Ki usage every round.
Oh, okay. That wasn't very clear in the previous post. Yes, that's better than having to make Saves and spend Ki, but ultimately is still not very great because of the amount of time spent.

That's why the potential to 'skip' some levels by a dramatically increased DC or similar mechanic. Full round action maybe?

cont. wrote:
Having something other than strictly Ki usage could potentially open up the system to non-monks.

Which, again, doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a thematic standpoint. Chakras affect Ki and Ki affects Chakras - they're intimately linked, so separating the one from the other is nigh-impossible.

It's like wanting to gain spells without having to take a spellcasting class - it doesn't really work that way.

OR just change how concentration works for chakras? Stuff like instead of a caster level, they use HD plus Wisdom? Simple modifiers could replace the current 'spell casting' ones. You could just really use three: simple distraction, moderate distraction, and severe distraction.

cont. wrote:

Plus, there are lots of ways to gain Ki pools: Monks get them, but so can Sacred Fists, Ninja, Magi, Shigenjo Oracles, Enlightened Paladins, Champions of Irori...

I do believe that other classes though have access to it, of course, which is why I didn't go with the whole "based on the number of Chakra you have open" deal, nor a "based on your Monk Level" thing. But I do think that Ki is so integral to the idea and lore that taking a 2-3-level dip into a Ki-granting Class isn't asking much, especially since doing so will grant you a passive DR(1/2HD)/-, and the ability to fly for HD number of rounds per day for 1 Ki.

It's just assumed that opening Chakras 3-7 are going to require much more devotion to a Ki-granting Class or else a massive Wis score to pull off, which is fitting, honestly.

There's a rather large difference between Ki and Wisdom in terms of the number of classes and archetypes. Ki users are a pretty narrow percentage of character compared to Wis users. Relying on Wisdom instead of Ki dramatically increases the number of characters that could have access to chakras.

cont. wrote:
The chakra system right now is simply designed as an alternative to the standard Ki usage of a monk, which is why it uses the

A balance between the two is something I'd rather support than simply going one way. Lore itself can simply be adjusted to maximize the mechanics or even "removed" in certain situations (i.e. archetypes) In the current book we even have a feat that gives extra "ki" for chakras but known as a different name and not really ki. After all, the current chakra backstory are partially Golgarianized to fit within Paizo's universe.

If someone really wanted to, they could simply say that the Chakras use Chi or an alternative that's just generic life force to disassociate from Ki (the more focused usage of life force).

There's also the idea of having a weaker effect for the different levels and then a single sentence that allows the use of 1 Ki for the regular effect. It would reflect the idea that Monks or other Ki users can truly maximize the energy from chakras without fully eliminating it from other classes.

likrin wrote:

I really love the idea of chakras. I have a champion of Irori that it fits so well with, but the saves, even for him, are high, and 7 rounds to open up all 7, combat would be long over.

I like the idea of not tethering it to a feat tree.

Why not put a burden on opening multiple chakra at once, such as Burn from the kineticist, or drawbacks from rage
Maybe make it some amount of damage x the number of chakras opened?

I'm looking at occult rituals, seeing if that could help.

The idea of a mechanic like burn might be an interesting, alternative usage as I'm not a big fan of taking damage failing chakra saves.

Rituals could also work but I haven't went through them just yet.

Grand Lodge

I wasn't saying to replace the saves (Fort and Will) with concentration , but use concentration as the way to open the progressively more difficult chakra stages instead of Ki. If they want to try and open more than one, you could simply have them make a larger, more difficult concentration to open multiple. Just seemed like a better alternative than the current system that requires the Ki usage every round.

Having something other than strictly Ki usage could potentially open up the system to non-monks.

I'm not a big fan of the actual dual saves or you take damage that's in the chakra section of the book. Just seemed far too limiting for one specific class.

The chakra system right now is simply designed as an alternative to the standard Ki usage of a monk, which is why it uses the Ki and a swift action every round.

Alternatively, instead of feats an unchained monk could just spend a Ki power slot?

Grand Lodge

Seth Dresari wrote:

The permanent Chi Block should require either a Will Save or a Fortitude Save, whichever is better, but it would have a very high DC. A spirit or somebody strongly affiliated with them should be able to repair the damage though.

I am thinking that there should be regular classes for all of the non-bender stuff and Elemental Archetypes (the four classics, and Spirit instead of Aether)... with advanced forms of bending (Metal, Sand, Blood, Chi, etc) all being Prestige options.

I am also thinking that people who are directly associated with the "Spirit" element should have access to "spells" like Magic Missile (renamed Chi Missile), Light and Mage Hand. Chi Benders would also get these abilities, and Chi Bending could be a Prestige class for the other elements.

Quick question: If Fire benders get Lightning (and for Water, Lightning Redirection), should Earth Benders get Acid?

For the whole blood bender block, I don't think you need to add a save to it. The reasoning is that the ability is strictly tied to an overarching story or plot and could easily be the second half a campaign itself. Of course, you can detail many different ways a DM can remove the block.

I'm not too big on prestige classes because of how narrow they are. Things like sandbenders would work better as just archetypes with slight changes to the overall class. For example, Sandbenders could get Endurance instead of the Utility Wild Talent at level 2 to illustrate their resilience to their desert home and maybe the airbender's elemental defense instead of the earth bending one. Stuff like that.

I'm still looking into how to do a generic non-bender class that allows the character to essentially do one of the basic classes (fighter, rogue, ranger, and so on) but also tie the class more with the universe itself.

Someone mention medium as a spirit "bender" or someone unusually close to the spirits, although maybe spiritualist could work better or even just tied in the potential to both an archetype and feat options to cover everything.

I think you could give some Aether abilities to metal benders as long as the material is appropiate.

For Fire, I wouldn't mind trying to add a bludgeoning option as fire bending often knocked people around quite often.

Alternative potential stat keys for benders (so that not everyone has to rely on strictly CON and to fit more with the universe)
Air: Wisdom
Water: Wisdom (perhaps charisma instead so it mirrors fire)
Fire: Charisma
Earth: Wisdom

I've been doing a rework of the Kineticist to fit more into the world. He's a rough draft of the progression

Bender Progression:

1 : Burn, elemental focus, gather power, infusion, kinetic blast
2 : Elemental defense, utility wild talent
3 : Infusion
4 : Intermediate Bending, Utility wild talent
5 : Infusion, infusion specialization, metakinesis (empower)
6 : Internal buffer 1, utility wild talent
7 : Specialization (think Expanded element + other options)
8 : Infusion specialization 2, utility wild talent
9 : Infusion, metakinesis (maximize)
10 : Super charge, utility wild talent
11 : Infusion, infusion specialization 3, internal buffer 2
12 : Advanced bending, Utility wild talent
13 : Infusion, metakinesis (quicken)
14 : Infusion specialization 4, utility wild talent
15 : Specialization
16 : internal buffer 3, utility wild talent
17 : Infusion, infusion specialization 5, metakinesis (twice)
18 : Utility wild talent
19 : Infusion, metakinetic master
20 : Infusion specialization 6, capstone, utility wild talent

Some reasons for the changes:

First, this is just a rough draft and there's more to come.

Why is elemental overflow gone? Well, Avatar is a largely non-magical world unlike normal fantasy rpgs so I don't think we'll need the extra hit and damage. Secondly, the stat growth from the ability don't really fit. Elemental Overflow could work as an Avatar state basis with a few more tweeks to it.

Specialization? This is there to function largely as expanded element and give benders their composite blast or extra bending abilities. I also want to include the option for a bender to branch off into another non-bender ability. Just think of Zuko who choose to master the swords instead of having to multiclass. Other options include a tactician-like ability to give teamwork bending feats to people (think of the interweave composite blast but expanded to other utility talents too)

Intermediate and Advanced bending are pretty much like the basic elemental power. They are there to fill out some of the 'dead' levels.

Grand Lodge

chbgraphicarts wrote:
Zilfrel Findadur wrote:
How about the chi blockers like amon?

Chi Blockers like Ty-Lee and the special chi-blocking troops of the Separatists would use either Class Abilities or Feats to block Chi.

Amon isn't a "Chi Blocker" so much as he uses Bloodbending in a very strange way, most likely to completely close off Chakras so that Benders can't Bend anymore. Again, a Feat, but something significantly higher.


We do have Ki Block from the Ninja class as an example of how it could work, minus the whole sneak attack portion and the Ki pool (of course!). I'd lean towards it being a feat because of the training aspect behind it.

Amon's use of blood bending to block chi and prevent bending might work as a specific character ability or even a very high level blood bending ability.

Grand Lodge

chbgraphicarts wrote:

I'm also trying to avoid the "pay to keep a Chakra Open" thing as much as possible.

Why not simply change that portion of the ability rather than the entire one? Something straightforward like a concentration check every round to open or maintain the chakras? That way the path is open for Ki to do more with those chakras or with that concentration check.

I did notice that chakras are really only usable for a very small number of players, which sucks. Also sucks that other "forms" or systems of chakras are not available [yet].

Grand Lodge

Thank you. They pretty much told me about the same thing (contact the email/make a thread). Since one has already been done, I'll contact that email link that you supplied.

Grand Lodge

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
He has lightning bending (Expanded Element into Lightning at level 7).

Ah, I see it. That plasma blast just keeps drawing my attention away!

I've been working on a bender class, which is mainly small changes to keep it more inline with the universe. For example, electric blast becomes a composite blast.

The two expanded element choices are slightly expanded. As above, composite choices become available but I'm looking to add the option to take a different, non-bending choice. The reason for this was the character of Zuko who decided to master those dual blades. Th easiest way to do it would probably be something like allowing fighter feats or maybe the ranger weapon groups?

The only change I can think of (besides the capstone) is adding the basic, intermediate, and advanced bending at certain levels. The class ability simply gives the basic, iconic moves. Just think of a slightly expanded Elemential Focus.

Grand Lodge

I recently purchased the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game: Wrath of the Righteous Base Set from a store and one of the sealed decks had opened during shipment. Most of the cards where perfectly fine or in a workable state but a number of them where also creased.

I contacted the store I purchased the product from but I also wanted to reach out to Paizo too.

Grand Lodge

Where's his lightning bending? Or those little flame knives he liked to use? Maybe a flurry of blasts somewhere in there (representing Pro Bending)?

I'll probably make some simple builds for the various characters at some point to represent them throughout the show. I can see making Mako builds at level 1 (for Republic City Hustle and a tip of the hat to the kineticist iconic), level 7 (book 1), and maybe level 10ish (for the other three books). I not sure about too high of a level for him because he largely remained ability stagnant for just about the entire series. That same can go for a few of the other characters (i.e. Asami doesn't really change but she's also a non-bender*)

*Non-benders: I've been looking at the vigilante as a possible way to make a relatively simple non-bender class. The thing to look for is how many types of non-bender existed.

Grand Lodge

Ok, finally got a good chance to go through the Kineticist. This is the first look at what needs to changed or removed from the wild talents.

Blasts I:

Air Blast: I want to add the option to use it non-lethally but also as slashing

Electric Blast: should be a composite blast for fire

Fire Blast: physical option?

Blizzard/Steam Blast: possible change to a team work composite blast? How do people feel about that?

To be removed:

Cloud - Wind Manipulator and Weather Master do the job
Draining Infusion - not real resistances in Avatar
Flash Infusion
Unraveling Infusion
Cold Snap
Heath Adaptation
Kinetic Form
Reverse Shift
Ride the Blast
Searing Flame
Wings of Air - I feel like I want to tie this to a feat or something to limit it to certain individuals only

To be changed:

Cold Adaptation - Fire benders only
Eruption - to Magma only
Grappling Infusion - to Earth/Water only
Ice Path - on water only
Spark of Life - There's multiple instances of using bending to make "creatures" so limiting it to say fire/water/earth/metal but also giving it a concentration duration too

"classic" Spirit World traveling: I've been thinking about how to get players to be able to travel to and from the spirit world. I'm only looking at ATLA and pre-book 3 LoK. I think that a two feat system would work.

The first feat is Spiritual Awareness that gives players the detect spirits ability (think detect good/evil). There are two ways to get it. The first is a high Wisdom score, which fits into the image of Airbenders. The second is exposure to spirits and is subject to a GM's whims.

The second feat simply allows for the possible move into the Spirit World. I'm thinking a varying DC test to actually allow it. Certain conditions (or people) add or subtract to the DC.

I think there could be another feat that gives a bonus to a player's roll to enter the spirit world (+2?). Maybe even more if they have 10 or more ranks in Knowledge (spirits). Or just a feat that gives a flat +2 and can be taken multiple times?

Grand Lodge

LazarX wrote:
The NPC wrote:
Bare in mind on the Nick website years ago but it has been stated that energy bending is something previous avatars have done. Just very rarely.
If it's not in the show, the comic book, or direct statement from the authors, it's not something I consider.

That's largely what I go with although some of the statements from the creators can be a bit questionable or uncertain.

Any who, my local store didn't get the rulebook for some reason like they forget to order it or something so I have to order it online. However, I did get the pdf and have been looking through it when I can. Most of the class looking functional from a quick glance, with many powers being usable in their current state or with relatively minor tweaks (i.e. Basic Hydrokinesis doesn't give Create Water). I think I want to add something like Intermediate <insert element> and Advanced <insert element again> along those same lines.

I did look at the blood bending archetype and I'll have to find a way to add a stigma ability there that really affects the character's social modifiers when people see him or her blood bend. Maybe an intimidate bonus to that as well.

Still going through the class and archetypes though! The work as just begun.

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N. Jolly wrote:
I've actually been tooling around with the idea for a pro bending sort of game, but the rules would rely on a few magical items that would only work in tandem with each other.

I've been trying to do something with Pro Bending for a while now, but largely as more of a board game rather than for Pathfinder. I'll go back and look at the dueling mechanics that are out there and maybe a variant could work?

I'd imagine an easy way to do a pro bending match is to tell the rules to the player following what was given in the show and largely use nonlethal damage. I suppose giving a kind of "stamina" gauge that can fall as the match continues or a mechanic like having the players take burn each time they bend during the match to simulate the players getting tired? I'll think some more about it and post an outline or something.

Also, we do need to think of a way around magic items as ATLA is relatively low magic.

redpandamage wrote:

has no one mentioned the elemental ascetic who is very bendery. and what are the stats for a red panda familiar.

They were considered to use the stats of a Raccoon in Familiar Folio (under Approximate Familiars). The d20 site should have the stats.

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chbgraphicarts wrote:

Actually, thinking about it, there are a FEW possible timelines where you can put it:

1) Before Wan (19,000 BG to 10,001 BG) - There are no natural Benders; instead, humans need to receive Bending from the Lion Turtles on whose backs they live. However, as the Lion Turtle who gave Aang his Energybending alluded, humans very likely were "Chibenders", and manipulated the Chi within themselves to fight and create abilities.

2) Before Yangchen (600+ years BG) - Yangchen is the farthest-back Avatar that we know lots of details on, but there have been hundreds to thousands of Avatars in the past, and the world of Avatar was hardly unchanging before then.

A lot of fans have had fun with the idea of "what if the Red Lotus had succeeded?" and write fics concerning Red Lotus Korra, often versus Separatist Asami (obviously with a star-crossed-lovers, or enemy-lovers motif, but you get the idea).

It's possible that an Avatar centuries or millennia ago could have been evil, or at least extremely morally ambiguous, in the same way the alt-universe Red-Lotus-Korra would have been. Having the Avatar actually be the ANTAGONIST would be an interesting game, though likely more a well-intentioned-extremist than evil overlord.

3) The Hundred-Year War (1 AG to 99 AG) - Obviously the easiest. There's a long, long, LOOOONG war that has a well-established mythology, and would therefore allow for a ready-built campaign world with an existing conflict.

4) Korra's Childhood (154 AG to 170 AG) - The Red Lotus, the rise of the Separatists, etc. Like the Hundred-Year War, has a definite world and available conflicts.

Those are some good ones. I would add:

1) Post Wan Period: Before Wan, people are largely separated by distance, relatively few places of safety, the lion-turtles, and spirits. After Wan closing the portals, humans are free to inhabit the lands and we see the conflict that arises. There's enough room to do quite a bit here.

2) Time of Chaos in the Earth Kingdom following the death of the Earth Queen: We have all the elements at play, various different powers possibly running around, and a large number of different scenarios that are possible based on the quandaries that book 4 tries to bring up (not very well, but that's for another day).

3) Korra's childhood: I think you expand this too to post hundred years war. Why? The possible growth of the White Lotus sometime between ATLA and LoK. The White Lotus certainly just become glorious guards in LoK, but I think it could be easy to have a group of White Lotus being relatively proactive when there's no Avatar available or otherwise preoccupied.

Oh, and don't forget about that Warlord that was mentioned in book 3!

4) Post LoK: Not counting the upcoming LoK comics, there's plenty in this period too. The most interesting point is the open spirit portals. We get an entire world for a group of random explorers to do what they do best!

chbgraphicarts wrote:

5) Post Third Portal Creation (~185+ AG) - This is after the Legend of Korra show and comics by several years. Low-level Spirits once again live among Humans, and Humans could begin colonizing areas of the Spirit World through the Northern, Southern, & Republic Spirit Portals. It's also conceivable that Humans and Spirits could intermarry, and produce Human-Spirit...

There's an instance of a human and a humanoid spirit intermarrying in The Rift, the third trilogy of comics following the conclusion of ATLA. No child is produced, however, and the incident is long before ATLA.

Having all of these ideas somewhere for people to develop their own campaigns is part of what I would want the conversion to be.

Grand Lodge

LazarX wrote:
Loyal Battle Monkey wrote:

With the impeding release of Occult Adventures and the marvelous Kineticist, it's about time for a solid attempt at converting the universe to Pathfinder d20/ogl.

Already been done long time ago. Do a message board search for the Element Master threads. There's even a nice free PDF attached.

Doesn't really capture the feel of the universe or benders as well as the playtest kineticist has. There's also nothing about all the other goodies of Avatar either. What if I want to a Wolf-bat or a polar bear dog (no, a polar bear isn't good enough)? Stuff like that.

Kryzbyn wrote:
Avatar state could be a quad gestalted kineticist (one for each true element) level 20 that the avatar can channel for 1 round per level.

My only problem with that is Aang was already able use the state, although not under his control, before learning the other elements. I do want to account for things like that. The more I think about it, I more I would want to discourage a PC Avatar. Doesn't mean I would be completely against it.

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Milo v3 wrote:
Would the avatar be a Suli or a Samsaran?

I was thinking it (the past lives) should be tied into the Avatar class. It could simply be as easy as a spell-like ability like Augury, Speak with Dead, and so on. It could also gives something like skill bonuses. Because Avatars usually are not able to speak with all of the past lives, having the character gain an increasing access to more lives as they progress seems like the right step.

The Avatar state should also be tied into the class as well. At level 1, it could simply be a GM tool to get the player and the party out of trouble and/or plot related events. At later levels the player can start to control it, maybe a number of rounds equal to level, and give the ability to add more talents to a kinetic blast or access to more utility talents.

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brad2411 wrote:
I would have to say that Zuko is an Elemental Annihilator with maybe a level or a few in something like fighter, slayer, or ranger. The main reason I choose Elemental Annihilator is that you can two weapon wield kinetic blades with it and it gets lots of combat feats. the one level of class would be to get the proficiencies and to increase his fighting abilities a little.

I would like to include a whole host of different ideas of building the characters from different people. I would also like to include thoughts on building the type of character for basic Pathfinder and for PFS. I just wouldn't feel complete it they were not included.

For a relatively easy transition is Pabu. Simply a red panda familiar with the Mascot template added on. I'm still looking in on all the possibilities for other pets/familiars like the infamous turtle duck, various pig hybrids, rabbiroos, and so on. Most look as simple as having them count as other, established animals, but I do want to look for ways on making them standout too.

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Project: J-ko wrote:
I haven't been keeping up on every last Occult Adventures update, but if I can get Asami's electric gloves, I'm in.

Absolutely! I can see all the new equipment like the gloves, airships, URN police armor, Earth Empire armor, and everything else getting some sort of entry.

I keep thinking about and there might need to be a generic nonbender class that can fulfill the various nonbendy stuff we see in the show.

rainzax wrote:
What powers do you see in the cannon that do not have a corresponding talent?

I'm like the regular folks who have to wait a bit longer. So far, I just have the playtest pdf to look over to see what's needed and what isn't needed.

Right now, it's more about limiting certain choices for each element. For example, a fire bender can get lightning kinetic blast from expanded element or earthbenders getting the magma blast composite wild talent.

I could also see the class getting no weapon proficiency, a possible switch of the core stat (con) to something different for each element, and so on to fit with the source material.

If we see a power in the show, books, or in other material, it should be reviewed and compared to the talents that are available.

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With the impeding release of Occult Adventures and the marvelous Kineticist, it's about time for a solid attempt at converting the universe to Pathfinder d20/ogl.

Yes, it is a bit early for the regular folks who still have to wait for the 29th, but I wanted to get this thread started early to drum up support and interest for the topic at hand.

Thoughts? Concerns? Ideas? Go and spread the word!

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Third Mind wrote:
So looking forward to the blood kineticist. I want to see all that it can do. That said, I'll still probably go Earth Kineticist. EARTH NATION FTW!

Indeed, there's something quite entertaining about a terrakineticist that can throw rocks, create cover, throw big rocks, control opponents, and throw even bigger rocks!

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The Golux wrote:
She does take blue fire blast at level 7 though.

Exactly! :p An older, higher level Yoon would certainly love to throw out blue fire. After all, stuff will burn faster.

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I love the new changes from what I've read here and what I've seen with the pre-generated Yoon character. I can already tell that I will never need to play another class again with the Kineticist around.

All of the archetypes except the monk seems pretty nice. When can we expect a black blood archetype that focuses on the kineticist's own blood instead of others? OR just give us a kineticist that really likes metal (and armor by association).

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zergtitan wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
zergtitan wrote:
I hope in the future we can get a picture of an adult Yoon.
Found one for you:-D
Nice, but I believe Yoon is a girl.........

Try this one. Lots of blue fire!

Grand Lodge

I love that the bender (woops, I meant kineticist) is a human but I would love to actually see an older Yoon. There's something about having a young kid character in something like pathfinder society that leaves a bad taste.

You guys gotta make a plushie Gom-Gom!

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M1k31 wrote:
Steven_Evil wrote:
Cthulhudrew wrote:

The Dual Identity feature does a little bit more than the Reputation rules, but fundamentally is very similar.

The core of this class is the marriage between the two ideas: other classes + Reputation/Identity = Vigilante.

Right now it seems like the two don't intermingle as much as they should. Perhaps there are some other mechanics that tie into Ultimate Intrigue that we are missing where we might see more overlap, but as is, I would like to see the Dual Identity play more of a role in the mechanics of this class. (I'm admittedly not sure specifically what at this point, but I'll keep thinking on it.)

I agree with this. The talents are all abilities that other classes get. The dual identity is the only thing the vigilante really has going for it that other classes don't.

I don't know what exactly should be done with it, but I think it should somehow have scaling abilities, maybe something along the lines of "every X level, you may use one more talent while in social guise. this talent must be chosen at the level this ability is gained, and can not be changed after it is set".

I'd like to see a little more in the way of talents that feel unique, as well, perhaps even talents that apply solely to the social guise.

first of all... yes I'm noting something on page 2... I already read to the end of page nine, yet I feel this is most valid to my idea...

I think that the Social identity should get it's own point system and "specializations"... the SI point system should give one point each level, and be much more modular than the combat side, actually starting out with more points than that at a characters true level one to represent your backstory/childhood to benefit Pure builds as opposed to dipping.

The "Specializations" should represent what your SI is... for example: "rich" could cost a larger amount of points while "middle class" costs just one and "poor" actually gives you an extra point for your "SI pool". "Rich"...

I partially agree. After reading the new round 2 build, I feel like the social identity should just be designed like the vigilante specialization. Right now, the social still feels like something I don't really need or have a real temptation to use. I'll have to give it another go in a session though.

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Setting the Stage wrote:

I like dual identity. But the speed needs to be tweaked. 5 mins is way too long. Yes it makes sense but it is not something that works in an adventure.

Maybe they get an item or spell that allows them to either instantly change or keep their gear with them.

The problem is that this isn't modern day with spandex, so you can't wear your chain mail and scale under your pantaloons and doublet. Think about the logistics of hiding a great sword under a ball gown. It doesn't work.

So the question that needs to worked out is how do they change not just a blanket time.

I think the same way wizards have familiars vigilantes should have some magic item or gear that allows them to travel with their persona hidden. Or it could be a higher level thing and they just have to get into persona long before they go out

I feel about the same after two sessions. I tried using the social portion but after about an hour during the first session, I just switched to the vigilante's persona and stayed in it for the rest of the adventure. For the second, I never bothered using the social portion because it didn't offer anything. They do need to be 'balanced' out for any variety of situations (whether a society adventure or a campaign).

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I'm starting to wonder why they don't just call the class the dilettante and let the player choose/change the specialization to suit the party's needs? Did anyone else get that idea from reading the 'role' portion of the class?

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I was going through the playtest in preparation for a game with the class and someone mentioned to me about the 'baggage' of the dual personality. It does feel very much like something a player isn't going to typically use in the majority of games (esp. Pathfinder Society) so how could that be fixed?

Well, why not have the social personality be built similarly to the vigilante specialization with multiple choices, talents, and so on? OF course I wouldn't make the 'social' identity as powerful as the vigilante one but I also would make it tempting for the player to use it more often. Maybe during the day my character acts like a priest (maybe some light healing or spells?) while he becomes the warlock at night?

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LazarX wrote:

Korra's time is effectively a different setting than the Aang era.

High level bending feats are somewhat more common depending on variances... Republic City gets much of it's power from Lightning Benders charging capacitors. There's a whole clan of Metal Benders, and a line of Bloodbenders not dependent on the full moon.

Coordination between benders of different stripes is more common such as the FoxBat's c heating routine of combining earth and waterbending.

Spirits are a much bigger thing as well. Some of the Ghostwalk rules might be useful here.

There's enough common ground between both series that allows for the bender to be essentially the same. This doesn't count some of the changes, like technology (which would be placed as equipment/magic items) and new bending branches (namely metal).

Spirits would also function well with at least one new templates: dark or non-balanced. Non balanced (or dark) spirits getting boosts in generic combat stats, while losing mental stats.

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Bump for such an interesting thread and the fact that the last book is coming out soon.

Considering the show, I had a few questions or possible changes to think about.

1. Have you thought about dialing back the basic monk abilities like Flurry of Blows, Fast Movement, AC Bonus, etc or replacing them with similar, but different abilities?

While some of the abilities (ki) work well, others do not. For example, fast movement seemed like an Air bender ability, but not for earth benders.

2. Have you considered making the class more of a caster than a monk? For example, taking a page out of Advanced Class Guide and making a monk x caster hybrid class?

I say caster because a lot of the feats and powers are emulated in a number of elemental spells. Yes, the actions of bending seemed physical in nature, the effects always seemed spell-like to me. It would also eliminate the need to come up with lots of new abilities too.

3. What about a Flurry change that allows for additional bending rather than physical attacks? Start with multiple low level bending uses that scales as the class level increases.

4. What about removing the feats and replacing them with something like revelations or exploits? You could roll them into the class at regular intervals.

I've been trying to actually come up with some kind of rough draft of a similar class. I'll try and post it as soon as I can finish it.

Grand Lodge

The basic Myrmidarch just as a basis, mainly because everything was done. The "fixes" like moving the ranged spellstrike to level 2 and replacing the regular spellstrike where there to quickly change the focus to a ranged magus without forcing down a path of just guns. You could easily replace counterstrike with just about anything.

I've never used Counterstrike as a Magus. I think the highest I got one was 13 as a mixed ranged/melee character. High level campaigns never really went well with d20 in the local area as roleplaying (i.e. less minmaxing) was more encouraged than level grinding. Most were just interested in the PFS level of characters (max level 12) and usually slow experience progression.

I would give the class the Abundant Ammunition spell either way.

I don't think you need to repeat yourself twice with Insightful Avoidance and Greater Insightful Avoidance. Just roll them together rather than have two entries.

You do need to offset the free fighter levels. Having them at 1st level also leaves open level 10's Fighter Training.

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I suggest reworking the Myrmidarch archetype, as it's a decent template for a ranged heavy magus. Give firearm proficiency and the Gunsmithing feat at 1st level and remove Spellcombat, change Spellstrike to Ranged Spellstrike, remodel the armor training ability to weapon training (guns only) while removing medium and heavy armor prof., and keep the fighter training.

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All female? Seem alittle sexist. A good team should not be constructed based on sex, nationality, or color but on talent. Rather than have the title "Design announces 1st ALL FEMALE written adventure path", it should have been "Design announces all new adventure path featuring the best female talent".

It feels like the entire idea is fund a kickstarter project based on a gimmick. The entire idea of ALL FEMALE is obviously there to attract attention (i.e. $$$). I just want quality adventures.

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Whatever you do, do not use 4E's version of Dark Sun. The 2E version of Dark Sun is far superior for a conversion. 2E's is far more indepth and many of the changes to 4E were not for the better.

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Ascalaphus wrote:

You should be wary of the bender/nonbender disparity. It's something that's actually mentioned a lot in both series - Soka has a tough time finding ways to be awesome amidst all the benders.

And while this is not so much a problem for animated characters, for PCs it matters a lot more that every player feels relevant and important.

It's as big as the difference between a Sorcerer and a Mage in Mage: the Awakening. Non-benders can easily be skill-boxes or able to be far better with weapons than benders could be (think of those archers in season 1).

It might be better to try and remove the 'monk' portions of the class. Some benders are as good as monks in d20 but lots of others are not nearly so. The association comes from the movements they use to control and guide their bending.

You may also want to limit starting skills and have each element give additional skills.

Along those lines you could divide the bender into three separate 'classes': the martial bender (who could have some monk abilities), the more caster bender , and then a mixture of the two or something completely different.

Grand Lodge

You're forgetting about non-benders.

You might want to look at Mage: the Awakening or 4th Edition L5R (even has the four elements) for inspiration.

Use Concentration with adjustments instead of action points or some other resource.

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