New PACG adventure path annoucement will be offically next weekend or today ...


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

After looking into Reign of Winter more, +1 from me for this being an AP in the future, and it's also going to be the next RPG campaign I run for my players (would be the first time actually running Pathfinder too; I've ran D&D 3.5, HackMaster, and non-d20 systems like World of Darkness and Paranoia, but never actually played in or ran Pathfinder yet -- I intend to correct this!)

Adventure Card Game Designer

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I won't tell you what the AP is, because that's my job on Saturday night at the banquet. But I will tell you what it isn't, and why.

It isn't Reign of Winter.

The Wrath of the Righteous PACG AP was intended to be Reign of Winter for a long time, because I love Russian mythology. And then, just like that, it wasn't. Because I discovered a serious flaw in that plan. The hook of that AP is that in adventure 5

really don't click here if you're going to play Reign as an RPG:
you go to World War I Russia and fight tanks and Cossacks and freaking Rasputin.

Which is totally badass, but it's a problem in PACG.

The way PACG works, cards get added to the box from various adventures as you go along. But for the most part you don't remove them. That meant that when you went to that very cool place and time, you would not only fight those very cool things, but also the same half-orcs and witches and ghosts you fought before. Our game doesn't really have a mechanic for turning off all the cards you've previously met, except for culling Basic and Elites. If we used that method to cull all the fantasy-world cards as you entered adventure 5, we would not have enough cards for you to have a functional game left.

So, we cashiered the work we did on Reign, and got about to making Wrath of the Righteous. Which turned out pretty badass itself.

But I still wanna do Reign someday, because Lini riding a mastodon.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mike Selinker wrote:
If we used that method to cull all the fantasy-world cards as you entered adventure 5, we would not have enough cards for you to have a functional game left.

...and then we'd have a similar (yet opposite) issue to deal with *after* adventure 5.


What Vic said, I think it would be more awkward having tanks after adventure 5.

Having said that, I'm going to guess Kingmaker, Jade Regent, or Iron Gods. Probably Jade Regent since Kingmaker will likely need a lot of thought/time and innovation to do well.


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I personally want Iron Gods!

Sovereign Court

You definitely give a good reason for not using Reign Mike, as sad as that makes me. Even sadder that the work was even started and then dumped due to that flaw, as major as it is!


Mike Selinker wrote:


But I still wanna do Reign someday, because Lini riding a mastodon.

A very good reason !


Vic Wertz wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:
If we used that method to cull all the fantasy-world cards as you entered adventure 5, we would not have enough cards for you to have a functional game left.
...and then we'd have a similar (yet opposite) issue to deal with *after* adventure 5.

As I said, I dont know any RPG path, but RotR and SS so far ;)

What a pitty, that my prediction strategy didnt work...
I was so sure, that it is Reign of Winter as
Paizo has choosen three times paths which were already available in the Pathfinder Battles miniature line...
And there is no other "less traditional" path available in the miniature line...

@VIC/MIKE
What does Vic and Mike think about the synergy effects of both PF Battles and PACG lines? You had already three times the expericience, do Battles miniatures and PACG sell "sometimes" together? (I already bought some!) Will you create a PF Battles line for the new path (release date bound) to exploit these synergy effects?


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

There is no such synergy. There is no incentive for players of the Adventure Card Game to buy these miniatures. What would they even use them for?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Myfly wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:
If we used that method to cull all the fantasy-world cards as you entered adventure 5, we would not have enough cards for you to have a functional game left.
...and then we'd have a similar (yet opposite) issue to deal with *after* adventure 5.

As I said, I dont know any RPG path, but RotR and SS so far ;)

What a pitty, that my prediction strategy didnt work...
I was so sure, that it is Reign of Winter as
Paizo has choosen three times paths which were already available in the Pathfinder Battles miniature line...
And there is no other "less traditional" path available in the miniature line...

@VIC/MIKE
What does Vic and Mike think about the synergy effects of both PF Battles and PACG lines? You had already three times the expericience, do Battles miniatures and PACG sell "sometimes" together? (I already bought some!) Will you create a PF Battles line for the new path (release date bound) to exploit these synergy effects?

I think you're looking at it slightly skew.

I expect they produce PFBattles lines at least partly based on which tabletop RPG APs did well. Similarly, I suspect there's an element of that in the selection of which APs get produced in the PACG. So there'll be a correlation, but it's really due to a hidden variable.

When they sell lots of ice creams, more people drown.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Zaister wrote:
There is no such synergy. There is no incentive for players of the Adventure Card Game to buy these miniatures. What would they even use them for?

The only thing I could see is using iconic figures as character markers instead of the token cards. But with that, it doesn't really matter what Battles sets are out as long as the iconics are there. Then with the Iconic Heroes series of minis, even that's completely out the window. So yeah, as you said, there is no real synergy.

However, that doesn't mean that there can't be any ideas of synergy in place at all. General theme familiarity between lines could help with marketing, even if there is no real synergy between the actual products. It's like, "Oh, this cool card game is out there called Pathfinder ACG: Skull % Shackles. Oh, it's also an RPG? And it has these cool little minis? Hmmm...." But with that said, I think Myfly's thinking that Reign of Winter would be the next best set to play off of familiarity based marketing is misguided. It's going to be at least another 6 months until this new set is going to come out. By then the Reign of Winter minis would have been on the market for a long time and may start to be hard to find. If Paizo and Wizkids want to play off of familiarity marketing, they'd be much better off to have the next card game set's AP match the Battles set that will be coming out after Dungeons Deep. Just my opinion.

Jason S wrote:
I'm going to guess Kingmaker, Jade Regent, or Iron Gods. Probably Jade Regent since Kingmaker will likely need a lot of thought/time and innovation to do well.

Yeah, those are pretty much my guess and the ones I'd like the next three to be. Most likely Jade Regent, Kingmaker, then Iron Gods, but they could go ahead and do Iron Gods next if they wanted to do something REALLY different. Yay for laser pistols and chainsaws!!

Shadow Lodge

Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Thanks for the insight on that Mike. So the good news is that just as soon as you figure out *how* to do it, RoW will be put somewhere on the schedule. :)

It's interesting because now that you mention it, Book 5 is not the only one that suffers from the problem with mixing with the other books. Book 4 (and to some extent Book 3) have the same issues. So it sounds like fixing that problem might just require an entirely different overall structure.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

My 2cp:

I don't think we'll see any of the older AP's (ie Kingmaker, Council of Thieves, the Crimson Throne), simply because there's less cross-brand synergy. With all the sets that have been released, they were relatively new (or in RotR case, recently re-released) and were fully available in stores. I don't think they're going to be inclined to pull from adventures that players will not be able to then purchase to play/read themselves.

If I had to guess, I'm thinking Carrion Crown is probably around the cutoff (either last in or first out), since that's 4 years old as of now, and anything older than that I feel falls into the too old to reasonably expect to be available.

Knowing Reign is out here's my top 3 (I'm also going by the assumption that it's a non-traditional setting):
1. Carrion Crown
2. Jade Regent
3. Mummy's Mask


Steve Geddes wrote:
Myfly wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:
If we used that method to cull all the fantasy-world cards as you entered adventure 5, we would not have enough cards for you to have a functional game left.
...and then we'd have a similar (yet opposite) issue to deal with *after* adventure 5.

As I said, I dont know any RPG path, but RotR and SS so far ;)

What a pitty, that my prediction strategy didnt work...
I was so sure, that it is Reign of Winter as
Paizo has choosen three times paths which were already available in the Pathfinder Battles miniature line...
And there is no other "less traditional" path available in the miniature line...

@VIC/MIKE
What does Vic and Mike think about the synergy effects of both PF Battles and PACG lines? You had already three times the expericience, do Battles miniatures and PACG sell "sometimes" together? (I already bought some!) Will you create a PF Battles line for the new path (release date bound) to exploit these synergy effects?

I think you're looking at it slightly skew.

I expect they produce PFBattles lines at least partly based on which tabletop RPG APs did well. Similarly, I suspect there's an element of that in the selection of which APs get produced in the PACG. So there'll be a correlation, but it's really due to a hidden variable.

When they sell lots of ice creams, more people drown.

The latter is true, when you put a lot of non-swim-able people in an empty, very deep swimming pool without a ladder to climb out. Then you have to block the sink of the swimming pool. Now it is your turn to sell lots of ice cream... Sooner or later they will drown - not due to the ice cream directly which was eaten ...


I'm leaning towards Jade Regent as my pick for the next PACG AP. I have one reason and one reason only for this. There are exactly 7 classes left that haven't been introduced in PACG, yet. Of these 7 classes, 3 of them are the alternate classes, Antipaladin, Ninja, and Samurai. Since Ninja and Samurai are both on the list, I'm leaning towards Jade Regent.

Of course, this is based on the assumption that PACG will treat them as actual full classes in of themselves rather than as the weird half-state "alternate" classes that they seem to be stuck in with the RPG. What I mean by this is that the Antipaladin, Ninja, and Samurai receive very little individual support from Paizo. They lack in the sheer number of archetypes that all the other classes have. They basically seem like they might as well have just been archetypes rather than classes in of themselves.

If those classes won't be considered full classes in the PACG, I'd predict Kingmaker instead, because it has Leadership-based rules that might be viewed as interesting to use for the PACG.

I would personally love Legacy of Fire, because I have a weak spot for "Arabian Nights" themes. I doubt that Paizo would use an AP that was written in the D&D ruleset, though. Not that it would pose any difficulty or anything using the AP, since the PACG is a different beast entirely, but I just get the feeling Paizo would rather stick with the PFRPG ruleset APs.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Paizo considers the Ninja and Samurai "full" classes, but not the Anti-Paladin. You'll find they have an iconic ninja and samurai but not an iconic Anti-Paladin.


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Paizo considers the Ninja and Samurai "full" classes, but not the Anti-Paladin. You'll find they have an iconic ninja and samurai but not an iconic Anti-Paladin.

Ah, I was curious what they were going to do for the Antipaladin character, since I was already aware he has no iconic. I didn't realize they were just going to ignore him outright. Makes sense, since CE characters generally don't work well in parties (unless he's named Belkar).

So just 6 new character classes next base set. That'll work fine since Occult Adventures is coming out with 6 new classes (which I refer to as the non-psionic psionic classes), and I'm guessing those will feature in the base set after next.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Well, CE characters may not work terribly well in parties, but Seltyiel is LE, and he's there! :)

Contributor

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I really, really want it to be Iron Gods. But that's because I'd like to see my RPG chapter appear in the card game!

Grand Lodge

Maybe it'll be a revamped Shield of Rannick?? ;)

Contributor

ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
Maybe it'll be a revamped Shield of Rannick?? ;)

Shield of Khorramzadeh? :-)


cartmanbeck wrote:
Well, CE characters may not work terribly well in parties, but Seltyiel is LE, and he's there! :)

A CE character and an LE character are different beasts entirely with regards to how well they work in a party. LE character can be expected to act within specific boundaries set by their own personal codes of conduct. They can also reasonably be expected to work with the party as long as their goals align. This is often not the case with CE characters, which are likely to do just about anything.

Whenever you see the hero-villain team-up, and it ends with the villain walking away, no attempt to backstab the hero, that is a classic example of a LE character working with the good guys. Usually the end of the team-up is marked with the uttering the phrase, "next time we meet, it will be as enemies once more," by the villain, and there's a sense that the villain somewhat respects the hero, because he meets some internal standard that the villain himself follows.

The CE character is much more likely to backstab the hero as soon as their goal has been achieved or even before it's been achieved. The hero usually is ready for it, spouting something along the lines of, "I knew you'd betray me, you just can't help yourself." Of course, the villain may just choose not to backstab at all for some completely illogical seeming reason, such as, "this bores me, I'll kill you next time." You just never know with CE characters, which is what makes getting them to work well in parties so difficult.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Ron Lundeen wrote:
ThreeEyedSloth wrote:
Maybe it'll be a revamped Shield of Rannick?? ;)
Shield of Khorramzadeh? :-)

Yeah, they totally took your mechanic there :)

Grand Lodge

Yeah, I immediately thought of Ron and the Sihedron Medallion when I read the blog preview today. Good to see they are taking inspiration from great sources. :)

Pathfinder ACG Developer

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Mike Selinker wrote:
But I still wanna do Reign someday, because Lini riding a mastodon.

This sounds like a worthy goal / gauntlet. Probably a good dinner conversation that starts with "What if you used a _lot_ of henchmen and summons" mumbles on about special location / scenario rules and really dives from there. I think Wrath has really shown some neat things we can do and while I don't think it'd be good for more than a few scenarios, thankfully one adventure is just a few scenarios.

Cause, goshdarnit, Lini needs a mammoth.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

One thing you could do is, for all the stuff in adventure 5 that shouldn't hang around, put the trait "Temporary" on it. Then on the Adventure card for adventure 6, add the power, "When you would add cards to the box for this adventure, first remove all cards with the temporary trait with an adventure deck number less than 6."

And for adventure 5, you could simply add the power "When you build locations, only use banes from adventure deck 5." Or something like that.

That obviously depends on whether the boons from previous adventures should also follow you to that odd place. And it puts a limit on you having to put enough cards of each type in adventure 5 to make sure there are enough cards to build locations. But the PACG design team seems pretty smart. I'm sure they can figure something out.


What's "the next size up" from 110 cards in terms of a pack (iirc the numbers are dictated by printing issues) - would it be possible to have a one-off Adventure 5 as 150 cards (or whatever it'd be) combined with some of Hawkmoon's ideas above

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Guys, we're not looking to solve the Reign of Winter issue in this thread. We're already working on the next *two* APs after Wrath, and we already have a good idea of how we want to follow those (and note that I'm not saying whether or not RoW is one of them).


Guys, we're not looking to solve anything in this thread. We've already played the guessing game on the next *two* APs after Wrath, and we already have a good idea about who has no clue about why we are even debating those (and note that I'm not saying whether or not I'm one of them).

... Said the guy who unfortunately lives 10.000 miles away from PaizoCon.


Will Mike's Banquet revealing PACG next path information also be available as a LIVE STREAM???

If I hear my neighbours shout HURRAY (it is like soccer GOAL! shout during world championship) at the same moment I will, then I know my neighbors are also great PACG fans.... And will ask them to come over for a joint PACG night...


I think it will be legacy of fire, just my own thought on it. would be interesting to see how they would do the achievement system.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Sorry—no live stream. But there will be live blogging, tweeting, and so on.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I'll make sure to live-tweet all the PACG news from the banquet. You can follow me @cartmanbeck. :)


cartmanbeck wrote:
I'll make sure to live-tweet all the PACG news from the banquet. You can follow me @cartmanbeck. :)

Are you participating in the PaizoCon?


Vic Wertz wrote:
Sorry—no live stream. But there will be live blogging, tweeting, and so on.

It is something you could consider for PaizoCon 2016... so I could see and hear the GOLDEN Words...

Adventure Card Game Designer

Vic Wertz wrote:
Guys, we're not looking to solve the Reign of Winter issue in this thread.

And as Vic probably noticed, I never said we didn't solve it. It's just not going to be the next adventure path.


Mike Selinker wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Guys, we're not looking to solve the Reign of Winter issue in this thread.
And as Vic probably noticed, I never said we didn't solve it. It's just not going to be the next adventure path.

Piece of cake:

Issue two adventure paths, one cold-y-medieval and one russ-y-WWI, and when you switch to AP x, you just change box. :-)


I'd take a guess to say Jade Regent next, and then Kingmaker afterwards.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Myfly wrote:
cartmanbeck wrote:
I'll make sure to live-tweet all the PACG news from the banquet. You can follow me @cartmanbeck. :)
Are you participating in the PaizoCon?

If by participating you mean attending, then yes. I'll be running a few Pathfinder Society games, but I'm not on any panels or anything like that, if that's what you meant. :)


I am also sadly thousands of miles away, but I will definitely be following you on twitter. May I ask a silly question that I am sure is obvious to everyone on this website: When exactly does it start? i.e. what time and time zone?

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

7 PM Seattle time on Saturday (which I think is Pacific time zone, right?)


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Correct. UTC - 0700 (because of daylight savings).


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Correct. UTC - 0700 (because of daylight savings).

Which is in Germany?

Right now, we got 7:37pm.
What is the time difference to Paizo HQ?

Daylight savings in Germany and/or Washington make it more difficult to determine the time difference.

Grand Lodge

WOW ... I did not expect Iron Gods!

Sovereign Court

MyFly, that'll be 4am for you.


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
WOW ... I did not expect Iron Gods!

(Dramatic music in background).....Nobody expects Iron Gods! : )

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Myfly wrote:
Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Correct. UTC - 0700 (because of daylight savings).

Which is in Germany?

Right now, we got 7:37pm.
What is the time difference to Paizo HQ?

Daylight savings in Germany and/or Washington make it more difficult to determine the time difference.

Type "time in Seattle" into the Google search box.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Andrew L Klein wrote:
MyFly, that'll be 4am for you.

On Sunday. Won't get up that early


OnkelZorni wrote:
Andrew L Klein wrote:
MyFly, that'll be 4am for you.
On Sunday. Won't get up that early

Dont you watch the Oscars in Germany?

Just imagine, when we would have a live stream from the red carpet of the PaizoCon!!!


Theryon Stormrune wrote:
WOW ... I did not expect Iron Gods!

I did! :)

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