Melee generally does not need great initiative. Casters do, as do specialty folks like rogues who need the enemy to be flatfooted. Ranged attackers certainly will find it useful but not required.
Once the first round ends there's little difference between fast and slow initiative. So it's really only important to characters that have abilities that work best at the beginning of combat.
Also, was it really necessary to create a whole second thread?
-j
Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver
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For some reason I find myself not wanting to go first in initiative. I like to know what the rest of the party is going to do first. If I'm playing a rogue I'd hate to move into melee first then find out the wizard wanted to cast a fireball or even burning hands. I know evasion may save my skin but sometimes the dice don't roll too hot.
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Winning initiative and going first aren't the same thing. You can always delay and pick your moment. That being said, there are diminishing returns on boosting initiative. So few enemies have a large bonus that the difference between +10 and +20 isn't worth the likely investment. At that point you're competing against other PCs, and there's really no point in that. My highest initiative character is at +11 without a feat boosting init. She does have Reactionary. She's a ninja, so I wanted to be able to get off a sneak attack in the first round. More often than not, that bonus is good enough to accomplish that. It doesn't matter to me if the Inquisitor or Gunslinger goes before me, and sometimes I'll delay anyway, because ninjas are a little fragile to run out ahead of everyone else and make themselves a target.
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I find that a high initiative modifier is highly dependent on the role I have for a character.
I have a lore warden fighter trip specialist. He has a reach weapon, and the feat combat reflexes. It really doesn't matter when he goes (other than his teammates blocking all his access to the enemy). In the first round, he can stop medium-sized critters from approaching on the ground, and most flyers, too. Enemies with reach are another story.
My diviner wizard very much wants to go first, to lay down battlefield control spells to divide and conquer the enemy. Web, black tentacles or dazing metamagic spells have been useful throughout his careet to make it so the rest of the party can engage the enemy on our own terms.
Other characters just don't care about initiative and adapt to whatever circumstances present themselves at the character's turn.
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I've never found it all that necessary to have a very high initiative, but then again I mainly play melee oriented chaacters. I suspect if I played more ranged characters or more casters, I'd be singing a different tune.
For my rogues, I prefer to use spring attack and gang up to get my sneak attack off based off of positioning rather than trying to catch opponents flat-footed during the surprise round or first round of combat, whch I feel usually leaves me feeling exposed.
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I find a high initiative most useful for characters that buff and those that use sneak attack. I know some people think that its the bees knees to have double digit initiative modifiers. When the majority of the baddies in scenarios have less than a +5 modifier, it then becomes trying to act before other party members and not just the baddies.
Most of my characters have a +3-6 initiative modifier. I do have one that is +14, but that was unintentional when the character was built (dex based Ifrit Inquisitor).
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Don't waste your build points/feats/gold on something that on your best days isn't even guaranteed to work.Huh? Nothing in the game is guaranteed to work.
No, but what's more useful? Something that only works when you go first, or something that's viability is independent of your place in the initiative order?
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Don't waste your build points/feats/gold on something that on your best days isn't even guaranteed to work.Huh? Nothing in the game is guaranteed to work.
With a +20 to ride, my cavaliers never failed a check to guide with the knees. Pretty sure that's close enough to guaranteed to work.
Also on a related note, the cavalier may be the only martial that really benefits from high initiative. At least until the pouncing barbarians come into play.
Edit- Cancel that, it should say mounted chargers are the only martials that really benefit from high initiative, since cavaliers are by no means the only class capable of charging from atop a mount.
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It's opportunity cost. Everything you sink into initiative is a resource that isn't going elsewhere.
I usually use imp. Init. as the bar for feats. If the feat in question is better than that, it's worth taking.
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I usually use imp. Init. as the bar for feats. If the feat in question is better than that, it's worth taking.
Funny enough, I do about the same. People asking what trait they should take? "Well, if you can't think of anything else and haven't taken a combat trait yet, get Reactionary. If you can think of something better than Reactionary, it's worth taking that; but you can't go wrong with Reactionary."
Similar logic can easily be applied to feats.
That said, only my Witch has actually taken Improved Initiative. Most of my other characters need too many other feats too much more.
Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville
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It all depends on the PC.. just like folks have said before.
My cleric.. she didn't need a HUGE init. So I didn't sweat it.
Now, for example, my gunslingers..(yeah.. plural) they tend to react fast so that they can get ahead of the bad guys for a reason, like lining up a shot for anyone who wiggles fingers (Spell casters).
Some folks need a fast init because others don't consider their actions. A spellcaster might need one to colorspray/fireball/whatever the massed group in front of the player group to soften them up for the melee types. A rogue DEFINITELY needs to get a drop on folks.. so a high init works (unless you're a fienter like one of mine)
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Initiative is unnecessary - "I can always build another character..."
If you die because you didn't go first then either you have a terrible character build, you're level one and got an unlucky x3 crit, or you were really stupid. None of those problems would be fixed by increasing your initiative bump.
Going first is nice, but that's all it is. Not worth spending any resources on. If I'm playing a high dex character with some class bonus to initiative, great. If not, fine no big deal.
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Mathematically most "high" initiatives are still out weighed by not one but at least two separate d20 rolls. (yours and whoever you want to compare with, the BBEG or your party or everyone) I have a character that with a -4 initiative modifier won multiple initiatives in more than one scenario (due to really good rolls) even with people in the +6 - +10 range in party. I've seen a character with a +14 never go in the first group of initiatives (meaning enemy action or a group of allies before the first enemy action)
Initiative is one roll per combat, or approximately 277 rolls over an entire PFS career. As a comparison the ever boring Weapon Focus adds to every attack roll you make (rough approximation is in the 1000's). Or for a caster spell focus (still more uses than initiative, though less than weapon focus).
If you get initiative as a tangential benefit from something you were going to do anyway, great, otherwise it is generally a waste. (There are some cases that are exceptions, but IMO fewer than most people think)
Also, while a +4 bonus sounds like it makes you 20% better, the math is actually worse than that. It only really helps you in situations where you and whatever you are comparing yourself to are in the same range of initiative (after adding the d20). Oh you rolled at nat 20, and the BBEG rolled a nat 1, yeah you were going to go first anyway.
That said if your party/lodge/whatever never takes other peoples actions into account, I could see investing in Initiative, but I won't.
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I said it once, I will say it again. Unless your going to:
A) Knock-out / Kill the BBEG in one round before anyone, even the BBEG or allies, gets to do anything.
B) Run away.
C) Disable the enemy(s) before they get to do anything. (IE: Mass Hold Person or just Hold Person.)
D) Going to kill all enemies in the encounter before they get to do anything. (IE: Maximized+Empowered+Intensified Fireball)
E) Early positioning of your character to get a bigger benefit. (IE: Rogue)
You really don't have a good reason to have a high initiative besides the reasoning of " because you can".
The only types that really need a high initiative are:
A) Casters.
B) Certain martial classes (IE: Rogue, ninja, gunslinger, etc, etc).
C) Min-maxed-for-damage builds that are not casters.
D) Cowards.
Dexterity 14 (+2 to initiative)
[u]Math[/u]
+2 initiative
If you wanted to mix-max your initiative at 1st level, take the above example and change/add the following:
Dexterity 20 from 14 (+5 from +2 initiative)
Improved Initiative feat (+4 initiative)
Reactionary trait (+2 initiative)
Familiar (Greensting Scorpion +4 initiative, instead of Owl)
So 4+5+4+2 = 15 initiative
Then lets take it one step forward:
Ezren isn't a human hes an Ifrit with the Wildfire Heart racial trait (+4 initiative)
Ezren the Ifrit Wizard now has an initiative of +19.
The reason for the spoiler above is also to ask a question and I feel this is fairly important question when regarding 1st level:
"You win the initiative, what do you do 1st level wizard?"
To quote from the book "Back to Darwin: The Scientic Case for Deistic Evolution":
In order to have the best chance for survival, then, an organism must be "careful" not to become too successful with its particular mode of specialization. It must strike just the right balance between specialization and over-specialization, or be faced with the prospect of self-imposed extinction. Thus, at a certain point, it must back off from the tendency to specialize in its environment.
Natural Selection chapter. Pg 119
TL;DR / Translation = Its fine to specialize your character as say the "face" of the party but don't over-specialize as you run a higher risk of getting your character killed off.
I apply this same logic to having a high initiative score. It is not a bad thing to specialize in a way to have a 6 or 10 for initiative, but the higher you go and more you devote your resources into initiative is when you begin to neglect other vital parts of your character.
EDIT: Here is also a good example of specialization Vs over-specialization.
Both A and B have not mutliclassed.
Both A and B are 7th level.
Both A and B have a high charisma score of 18.
Both A and B have Dazzling Display and Disheartening Display.
When "Over-specialization" is approached by an undead, his charisma of 18 and both of his display feats are rendered useless in the encounter. "Over-specialization" must rely on just his strength or dexterity to defeat the undead.
When "Specialization" is approached by an undead, only his two display feats are rendered useless in the encounter. Unlike his counterpart, "Specialization" can also use Lay on Hands and/or Smite Evil to defeat the undead in addition to using just his dexterity/strength to brute force the undead.
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I said it once, I will say it again. Unless your going to:
A) Knock-out / Kill the BBEG in one round before anyone, even the BBEG or allies, gets to do anything.
B) Run away.
C) Disable the enemy(s) before they get to do anything. (IE: Mass Hold Person or just Hold Person.)
D) Going to kill all enemies in the encounter before they get to do anything. (IE: Maximized+Empowered+Intensified Fireball)
E) Early positioning of your character to get a bigger benefit. (IE: Rogue)You really don't have a good reason to have a high initiative besides the reasoning of " because you can".
The only types that really need a high initiative are:
A) Casters.
B) Certain martial classes (IE: Rogue, ninja, gunslinger, etc, etc).
C) Min-maxed-for-damage builds that are not casters.
D) Cowards.** spoiler omitted **
The reason for the spoiler above is also to ask a question and I feel this is fairly important question when regarding 1st level:
"You win the initiative, what do you do 1st level wizard?"
You missed Buff the Party.
Getting Haste off before the party scatters can be pretty important.|
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actually, if I had been just a little faster in my Init, I would have been fine. I can recall thinking at the time if I had had heighten awairness going I would have been able the act between the first and second attack... even if it had just been to withdraw. (though I would likely have just Slumber Hexed him.)
Or a little tougher. Or better positioned. Let's not pretend that being faster is the ONLY way you'd have lived.
Also, for what its worth, you can't take immediate actions while flat-footed.
Maybe that's a reason for high initiative..."My character is dependent on being able to take immediate actions before opponents act"...and if your character is that fragile, maybe the Society can find a desk job for him/her?
You missed Buff the Party.
Getting Haste off before the party scatters can be pretty important.
Indeed I did. Thank you for mentioning it.
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Mathematically most "high" initiatives are still out weighed by not one but at least two separate d20 rolls. (yours and whoever you want to compare with, the BBEG or your party or everyone) I have a character that with a -4 initiative modifier won multiple initiatives in more than one scenario (due to really good rolls) even with people in the +6 - +10 range in party. I've seen a character with a +14 never go in the first group of initiatives (meaning enemy action or a group of allies before the first enemy action)
Initiative is one roll per combat, or approximately 277 rolls over an entire PFS career. As a comparison the ever boring Weapon Focus adds to every attack roll you make (rough approximation is in the 1000's). Or for a caster spell focus (still more uses than initiative, though less than weapon focus).
If you get initiative as a tangential benefit from something you were going to do anyway, great, otherwise it is generally a waste. (There are some cases that are exceptions, but IMO fewer than most people think)
Also, while a +4 bonus sounds like it makes you 20% better, the math is actually worse than that. It only really helps you in situations where you and whatever you are comparing yourself to are in the same range of initiative (after adding the d20). Oh you rolled at nat 20, and the BBEG rolled a nat 1, yeah you were going to go first anyway.
That said if your party/lodge/whatever never takes other peoples actions into account, I could see investing in Initiative, but I won't.
Delaying is an action. Thus by delaying you are no longer flatfooted. That has implications beyond your Dex (and other dodge bonuses) bonus to your AC. You can take AOOs and Immediate actions, you are not subject to sneak attack unless the rogue takes further actions to deny you your Dex.
Going first also has effects other than the obvious mechanical ones, it allows you to start imposing your will on the enemy. You can force the opponents to alter their plans by changing the tactical situation. The caster or archer who thought he was safe way over there may now have a melee critter in his face making him eat AOOs. Getting out of AOE formation.
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To quote from the book "Back to Darwin: The Scientic Case for Deistic Evolution":
In order to have the best chance for survival, then, an organism must be "careful" not to become too successful with its particular mode of specialization. It must strike just the right balance between specialization and over-specialization, or be faced with the prospect of self-imposed extinction. Thus, at a certain point, it must back off from the tendency to specialize in its environment.
Natural Selection chapter. Pg 119
TL;DR / Translation = Its fine to specialize your character as say the "face" of the party but don't over-specialize as you run a higher risk of getting your character killed off.
I apply this same logic to having a high initiative score. It is not a bad thing to specialize in a way to have a 6 or 10 for initiative, but the higher you go and more you devote your resources into initiative is when you begin to neglect other vital parts of your character.
EDIT: Here is also a good example of specialization Vs over-specialization.
** spoiler omitted **
And now the conversation has arrived at "reasons why fighters suck".
The key is not to fight over if you need high initiative, but to realize that some characters can NEVER be beat at initiative, while others can.
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Initiative is unnecessary - "I can always build another character..."
If you die because you didn't go first then either you have a terrible character build, you're level one and got an unlucky x3 crit, or you were really stupid. None of those problems would be fixed by increasing your initiative bump.
Going first is nice, but that's all it is. Not worth spending any resources on. If I'm playing a high dex character with some class bonus to initiative, great. If not, fine no big deal.
wow... guess you are just being blunt.
...
Yeah sorry, I do tend to be blunt and was pretty grumpy this morning when I wrote that. As for the stupid part goes, I find it is sadly often not the stupid player that suffers from it, but another unfortunate player who gets the consequences. Unlucky crit isn't meant to be specific but includes other unlucky dice rolls, max damage failed saves vs the few save or idea spells that weren't removed from pathfinder and the like.
But yeah, if your level 4 character died in two hits from a NPC in tier 1-2... The lesson I would take from that would be get more hit points rather than get more initiative.|
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This is the place to tell other players why they don't need a high Initiative modifier in PFS. Go nuts.
PFS is most often balanced in such a way, that you don't need to win each encounter before the badguy's go.
Building your character so that you can end the encounter before it really ever begins actually can rob other players and the GM of the entertainment of the meat of the actual scenario you are playing.
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This is the place to tell other players why they don't need a high Initiative modifier in PFS. Go nuts.PFS is most often balanced in such a way, that you don't need to win each encounter before the badguy's go.
Building your character so that you can end the encounter before it really ever begins actually can rob other players and the GM of the entertainment of the meat of the actual scenario you are playing.
I completely agree, but I don't think people are actually doing that.
I haven't played with any of those players who are out to beat every encounter before everyone else has a turn. The players I know who have high Initiative characters are very much team players and some of my favorite people to have at the table, regardless of which side of the screen I'm on. :)
I don't place much value on having a high Initiative, but it is a bit unfair to characterize other players with high Initiative PCs as selfish without knowing how their character plays out.
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actually, if I had been just a little faster in my Init, I would have been fine. I can recall thinking at the time if I had had heighten awairness going I would have been able the act between the first and second attack... even if it had just been to withdraw. (though I would likely have just Slumber Hexed him.)Or a little tougher. Or better positioned. Let's not pretend that being faster is the ONLY way you'd have lived.
Also, for what its worth, you can't take immediate actions while flat-footed.
Maybe that's a reason for high initiative..."My character is dependent on being able to take immediate actions before opponents act"...and if your character is that fragile, maybe the Society can find a desk job for him/her?
You need to work on your approach.
So, any recommendations for PCs who are not d10/d12 hit points, whose AC is highly dependent on not being flat footed?
Example: Kensai Magus
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actually, if I had been just a little faster in my Init, I would have been fine. I can recall thinking at the time if I had had heighten awairness going I would have been able the act between the first and second attack... even if it had just been to withdraw. (though I would likely have just Slumber Hexed him.)Or a little tougher. Or better positioned. Let's not pretend that being faster is the ONLY way you'd have lived.
Also, for what its worth, you can't take immediate actions while flat-footed.
Maybe that's a reason for high initiative..."My character is dependent on being able to take immediate actions before opponents act"...and if your character is that fragile, maybe the Society can find a desk job for him/her?
You need to work on your approach.
So, any recommendations for PCs who are not d10/d12 hit points, whose AC is highly dependent on not being flat footed?
Example: Kensai Magus
Sacrifice your primary stat for a little CON? Changing an 18 (16+2 racial) to a 16 (14+2 racial) frees up 5 points of your build.
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I got an 18 on my init. My wife got a 3, out of the 10 combatants, there was only one person between us. Imo, Improved Initiative is a waste of feat--especially if everyone has it. If everyone has it, it literally does nothing. So someone has to not take it for it to be useful for everyone else. I have no problem being that person.
For my specific examle, though, the highest (and there were two highest) had a +9. That's still within the acceptable range, anything beyond that is wasted. Again, just my opinion, you're welcomed to build your character however you want. But if you're just buying it up so you can be the first one to hit something, that (imo) is wasteful. If you're buying it up so you can go first to get your area buffs out for your teammates that want to hit something, that is a valiant use of a high initiative.
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I have a friend who built a Diviner wizard specialized in initiative. He took every feat and trait he could, ensured he had a high dexterity, and utilized whatever class features he could find to ensure he would always go first, with an initiative in the 40s.
Then, his position at #1 in the initiative order secured, he would say simply: "I delay."
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I nominate the monsters to be the ones to be beat in initiative!
:)
==Aelryinth
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Funny enough, I do about the same. People asking what trait they should take? "Well, if you can't think of anything else and haven't taken a combat trait yet, get Reactionary. If you can think of something better than Reactionary, it's worth taking that; but you can't go wrong with Reactionary."
For Combat traits, unless I do not plan on wearing armor better than leather, I prefer Armor Expert.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne
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There is a player in our area who, with only 1 exception I am aware of, always takes one level of Diving Wizard and a Compsagnathus for a Familiar so his characters can always act in the surprise round and he always ends up with initiatives in the teens for all his characters. I have to wonder why he always does this. Has he really been punked by that many GMs that he feels this is a necessity? As a GM, I do not find it annoying if someone has a character that can act in the surprise round and/or has a high initiative, but when all of your characters have it, it gets kind of old.