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Yeah, the Monk really needs high AC because he doesn't have access to other forms of defense. A Barbarian can tank AC with impunity because he can just pump his DR and use Come And Get Me to preempt any attacks. I feel like the Monk should have access to Blur/Displacement in class like the Bloodrager does.I'm honestly kind of surprised it was never a Quingong power. Miss chances seem like a very monkish line of defense to me.
might be cool to see a future monk archetype that can trade ki powers for rage powers
Yeah, the Monk really needs high AC because he doesn't have access to other forms of defense. A Barbarian can tank AC with impunity because he can just pump his DR and use Come And Get Me to preempt any attacks. I feel like the Monk should have access to Blur/Displacement in class like the Bloodrager does.I'm honestly kind of surprised it was never a Quingong power. Miss chances seem like a very monkish line of defense to me.
The 3pp master race already has this ability for monks.
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The 3pp master race already has this ability for monks.Yeah, the Monk really needs high AC because he doesn't have access to other forms of defense. A Barbarian can tank AC with impunity because he can just pump his DR and use Come And Get Me to preempt any attacks. I feel like the Monk should have access to Blur/Displacement in class like the Bloodrager does.I'm honestly kind of surprised it was never a Quingong power. Miss chances seem like a very monkish line of defense to me.
ugh, PC gamers. with their nude mods, and their higher graphics, and their irrational hate of game exclusivity, and their hilarious mishaps with assassins creed unity
wait, where was i going with this.
I played a Ranger in an aquatic campaign once. Know how we solved this problem? Enchanted the armor so she sank like a rock and then walked to shore because she could breathe underwater and was immune to the pressure of the depths.Yeah, that is one rule that I (and my group) toss right out the window. You do NOT sleep in metal armor. Or studded leather. Much less anything with armor spikes. Same with swimming in plate . . . ain't gonna happen.
MA
How did he not die of dehydration? It's not like there's fresh water down there for him to drink while he walks the untold miles (VERY slowly due to water resistance and darkness) to the nearest landmass.
I'm willing to be the answer is "the GM didn't think of it."
Alternately... "The GM considered it but decided to pass, because the PC's had clearly invested in doing this Cool Thing, and it wouldn't have been nice to spoil it for them."
How did he not die of dehydration? It's not like there's fresh water down there for him to drink while he walks the untold miles (VERY slowly due to water resistance and darkness) to the nearest landmass.I played a Ranger in an aquatic campaign once. Know how we solved this problem? Enchanted the armor so she sank like a rock and then walked to shore because she could breathe underwater and was immune to the pressure of the depths.Yeah, that is one rule that I (and my group) toss right out the window. You do NOT sleep in metal armor. Or studded leather. Much less anything with armor spikes. Same with swimming in plate . . . ain't gonna happen.
MA
Ring of Sustenance is a pretty common item all things considered. Also, highly useful for extended voyages at sea. We had Rings for the adventuring party and Muryland's/Sustaining Spoons for the crew when food shortages occurred and a Decanter of Endless Water for a water source.
[Edit] Found the special ability even! Deep armor
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Disagree on both points. Flying kick has reduced a lot of the pressure to use Pummeling Style (mobility has been handled, so it's just DR that Pummeling Style helps with), and Dragon Style continues to keep the unarmed monks competitive with the armed ones.It does sound like a weapon is the way to go with unchained monk - if you're a strength build. So - while Dragon style will likely fall by the wayside (if pummeling hadn't already done that to it)
Basically the monk should naturally be better with unarmed strikes than weapons, not the other way around. If anything the feat should be needed to help the weapons keep up.
Pummeling Style does more than just deal with DR and Mobility. It's nice for that, but it's most powerful ability is the crit effects. Add improved crit to pummeling style with 3-4 attacks and you end up critting as often as a rapier user.
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How are you benefiting from the extra attacks of a flurry of blows, but it not be a flurry of blows? That doesn't make any sense!
As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack.
Huh, Shisumo is right. That's definitely not the intended interaction though, and you'd have to have something lodged very deep in your posterior to rule it that way. Remember that by this interpretation, Monks who use Pummeling Style can't spend ki to add an additional attack to their flurry.
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As a full-round action, you can pool all your attack potential in one devastating punch. Make a number of rolls equal to the number of attacks you can make with a full attack or a flurry of blows (your choice) with the normal attack bonus for each attack.Huh, Shisumo is right. That's definitely not the intended interaction though, and you'd have to have something lodged very deep in your posterior to rule it that way. Remember that by this interpretation, Monks who use Pummeling Style can't spend ki to add an additional attack to their flurry.
That's the way I rule it, and I appear to be sitting here pretty comfortably.
There's no ambiguity in the RAW on this, and Pummeling Style's perfectly effective as it is.
Well no, if you lose everything except the ability to full attack then pummeling style has been completely obsoleted by flying kick.
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Well no, if you lose everything except the ability to full attack then pummeling style has been completely obsoleted by flying kick.
It's funny you should say that...
Disagree on both points. Flying kick has reduced a lot of the pressure to use Pummeling Style (mobility has been handled, so it's just DR that Pummeling Style helps with), and Dragon Style continues to keep the unarmed monks competitive with the armed ones.Pummeling Style does more than just deal with DR and Mobility. It's nice for that, but it's most powerful ability is the crit effects. Add improved crit to pummeling style with 3-4 attacks and you end up critting as often as a rapier user.
I think that the Monk Variant Multi-Class gave unarmed strike (Fairly sure someone mentioned that)... but I don't know if it does anything to shore up you're defense.It gives you unarmed strike at 3rd level, as a monk 2 levels lower.
It gives you a +3 dodge bonus to AC at 15th level, which of course is way too late to plan your build around.
Guys, it isn't always about the builds. Haven't you ever played in a game where the party gets split up? When your opponents attack in the dead of night when you are asleep and not wearing armor? Been through a scenario when you don't have access to your weapons or magic items?
I have. Plenty of times.
Being able to punch like a monk of just a few levels beneath yours, having flurry of blows, getting a +3 dodge bonus to AC, and gaining a ki pool are all good things for when the unexpected happens. And if I am reading these posts right, the VMC (variant multi-class) Monk doesn't require you to be lawful to gain those abilities.
MA
But notice when you get that +3 bonus to AC -- at 15th level. You will have to find some other way to provide for your defenses at levels 1-14. The VMC monk seems to follow the general pattern of granting you great abilities at 3rd level but relatively less impressive abilities later on.
And you are correct about not having to be lawful to be a VMC monk. The only mention of alignment is in the ki pool feature gained at 11th level, where it states that you do not get the ki pool (lawful) improvement unless you are of lawful alignment. I would take that as an indication that you do get everything else.
I've made an Unchained monk (monk 11 / cleric 1) that focuses on unarmed strikes. A couple of neat features:
- SAD monk, heavy emphasis on Wisdom attribute
- At level 1 take a short detour into cleric of Irori to acquire Guided Hand, so attacks are now calculated on Wisdom
- Trait: wisdom in the flesh (acrobatics)
- Large ki pool
- Pick flying kick style strike first; it is used to combo with Disorientating Maneuver
- Combat style mastery, to switch between boar style and mantis style on the fly
- Mantis style and high Wisdom grant a Stunning Fist DC of 25
- Medusa's Wrath as monk 10 bonus feat: stronger than improved critical (unarmed strike) with the new flurry and high chance to stun
- Unarmed damage is not emphasized, but battle field control is significant
- The 1 level in cleric grants protection from and remove fear
- The 1 level in cleric grants small boost to Will save, coupled with great Wisdom for a good overall Will save
- Original draft used only boar style to grant slashing/piercing/bludgeoning unarmed strikes, and the ability to demoralize for free when striking a foe twice
** spoiler omitted **...
Did you try building this monk as a VMC cleirc? You would lose the protection from evil and remove feat spells along with three feats. Would it be worth it for one more actual monk level?
I've made an Unchained monk (monk 11 / cleric 1) that focuses on unarmed strikes. A couple of neat features:
- SAD monk, heavy emphasis on Wisdom attribute
- At level 1 take a short detour into cleric of Irori to acquire Guided Hand, so attacks are now calculated on Wisdom
- Trait: wisdom in the flesh (acrobatics)
- Large ki pool
- Pick flying kick style strike first; it is used to combo with Disorientating Maneuver
- Combat style mastery, to switch between boar style and mantis style on the fly
- Mantis style and high Wisdom grant a Stunning Fist DC of 25
- Medusa's Wrath as monk 10 bonus feat: stronger than improved critical (unarmed strike) with the new flurry and high chance to stun
- Unarmed damage is not emphasized, but battle field control is significant
- The 1 level in cleric grants protection from and remove fear
- The 1 level in cleric grants small boost to Will save, coupled with great Wisdom for a good overall Will save
- Original draft used only boar style to grant slashing/piercing/bludgeoning unarmed strikes, and the ability to demoralize for free when striking a foe twice
** spoiler omitted **...
Did you try building this monk as a VMC cleirc? You would lose the protection from evil and remove feat spells along with three feats. Would it be worth it for one more actual monk level?
I did look into it. The problem is that channeling is only acquired at level 7, and general feats under VMC only at level 9 and 13 after that. So you'd have to wait until level 13 to get Guided Hand (which allows you to attack with Wisdom).
I did look into it. The problem is that channeling is only acquired at level 7, and general feats under VMC only at level 9 and 13 after that. So you'd have to wait until level 13 to get Guided Hand (which allows you to attack with Wisdom).
Retrain level 1/human feat?
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I did look into it. The problem is that channeling is only acquired at level 7, and general feats under VMC only at level 9 and 13 after that. So you'd have to wait until level 13 to get Guided Hand (which allows you to attack with Wisdom).Retrain level 1/human feat?
!!
I didn't consider it like that. Then maybe it's possible. You still have to be faithful to the plan to at least level 7 to come fully "online". But I'm patient that way.
You know people are going to complain the a monk is better with weapons than when they are unarmed.Which I find somewhat silly since both in real life and in fantasy literature/multimedia, martial artists with weapons are almost always more dangerous than martial artists of equivalent training without weapons.
In film and literature examples they aren't restricted to mechanically awful weapons, either. If you want a weapon-using monk I have no problem with it, but if my monk must be armed I want my monk to use a katana or jian, not a temple sword.
It's interesting to read through all the comments. It seems like the general consensus is (by all means, anyone, correct me if you feel I am wrong or have missed something):
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I wouldn't say there's "consensus" on anything but the new flurry and the style strikes, and those only because they are the the only unarguable upgrades. The rest of that list does comprise the most common issues people have put forward about the class, but there have been multiple commenters opposing just about all of those complaints throughout.
I know I opposed the idea that it should have retained it's good will save. I think it could have extra HD or a good will save not both. It could have lost it's good ref or good fort and I'd have the same opinion.
I know I opposed the idea that it should have retained it's good will save. I think it could have extra HD or a good will save not both. It could have lost it's good ref or good fort and I'd have the same opinion.
i'll say that as a wis-based class i could deal with them having a lower will save due to it, but ONLY if they have a means to cut down MAD.
juggling four 'core' stats makes it so that lower will save isnt compensated for even with all the other wis-centric abilities incentivising investing in it--it's not like the monk doesn't want to have good wis, they simply cant afford to invest in it and not either:
-deal crap damage (low str as a combat class is BAAAAAD, and every means of getting another stat to accuracy/damage are very costly)
-have REALLY crap AC (low dex and/or wis, no armor allowed unless you're begging buffs off your teammates until level 3-5 if you can get +1 bracers and the barkskin ki ability tax)
-have crappy health (better HD alleviates this a little, but until you can get your AC managed you're GOING to take hits, and need hp to not die before then)
-have crappy class abilities (wis lots of class ability DCs, your AC, your ki pool, etc etc)
i mean the dcs don't usually matter much outside of stunning fist, since quivering palm is now COMPLETELY USELESS WHO THOUGHT STANDARD ACTION WAS A GOOD IDEA SMACK HIM
besides the barkskin tax this is all a completely different issue from their stupid and completely needless WBL handicap.
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Some powers/style strikes could have been "baked in"
I would say, specifically, Flying Kick, which is essentially the ability to move and make a flurry initially 10 feet, 20 feet by 6th level, 30 feet by 9th level, 40 feet by 12th level, 50 feet by 15th level, and 60 feet by 18th level.
I will personally bake that right into Fast Movement as a class feature. And turn "Flying Kick" into either (still deciding) allowing that movement to be made AoO-free, or, allowing a flurry while moving total monk speed.
Either way I really like the general idea of Style Strikes - they open up another sub-economy within the monk's flurry that is really elegant, simple, and (potentially) effective.
Stunning Fist, and related strikes, should function like a held-charge that only takes effect when you score a hit.
I like some of the new changes, even if everything is now ki dependent, as there were a lot of choices that were so situational they never were selected when you leveled up.
The issue is now upping the monk's ki pool enough to be practical.
Stunning Fist, and related strikes, should function like a held-charge that only takes effect when you score a hit.
I like some of the new changes, even if everything is now ki dependent, as there were a lot of choices that were so situational they never were selected when you leveled up.
The issue is now upping the monk's ki pool enough to be practical.
i'd assume with near-mandatory vows/archetypes, more wbl/slot taxes, and spending your general feats on--like everyone else does on their core class abilities!
i'd assume with near-mandatory vows, more wbl/slot taxes, and spending your general feats on--like everyone else does on their core class abilities!Stunning Fist, and related strikes, should function like a held-charge that only takes effect when you score a hit.
I like some of the new changes, even if everything is now ki dependent, as there were a lot of choices that were so situational they never were selected when you leveled up.
The issue is now upping the monk's ki pool enough to be practical.
Don't forget that taking Vows now removes the only thing anyone could reasonably consider to give you an "edge" in Will saves.
Don't forget that taking Vows now removes the only thing anyone could reasonably consider to give you an "edge" in Will saves.i'd assume with near-mandatory vows, more wbl/slot taxes, and spending your general feats on--like everyone else does on their core class abilities!Stunning Fist, and related strikes, should function like a held-charge that only takes effect when you score a hit.
I like some of the new changes, even if everything is now ki dependent, as there were a lot of choices that were so situational they never were selected when you leveled up.
The issue is now upping the monk's ki pool enough to be practical.
yep. paizo monk design at it's finest!
after all, the lord giveth, and the lord sayeth 'screw you monks'
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Alas, this is true....
There needs to be more for monks...
There should be more monk-related feats (Some examples follow):
(1) A feat that reduces the ki cost of a ki power by one point.
(2) Another feat that increases the monks ki pool
(3) A feat to represent having an excellent master. It's a martial arts axiom that martial artists (i.e. monks) should have to go and search out martial arts masters to learn new techniques, and that should be included in the core rules. Similarly, there should be a way to represent having an awful master, as well.
Furthermore, Stunning Fist should be renamed "Stunning Blow" and should be usable with all melee attacks.
Alas, this is true....
There needs to be more for monks...
There should be more monk-related feats (Some examples follow):
(1) A feat that reduces the ki cost of a ki power by one point.
(2) Another feat that increases the monks ki pool
(3) A feat to represent having an excellent master. It's a martial arts axiom that martial artists (i.e. monks) should have to go and search out martial arts masters to learn new techniques, and that should be included in the core rules. Similarly, there should be a way to represent having an awful master, as well.
Furthermore, Stunning Fist should be renamed "Stunning Blow" and should be usable with all melee attacks.
This stuff really should be baked into the class.
Going "This class has some problems, let's fix them with feats" leaves with you with one of the fighter's problems, where the class has so many issues that by shoring them up with feats you end up worse off in the feat department than another class that has less bonus feats and fewer glaring flaws.
I think that the Monk Variant Multi-Class gave unarmed strike (Fairly sure someone mentioned that)... but I don't know if it does anything to shore up you're defense.It gives you unarmed strike at 3rd level, as a monk 2 levels lower.
It gives you a +3 dodge bonus to AC at 15th level, which of course is way too late to plan your build around.
Guys, it isn't always about the builds. Haven't you ever played in a game where the party gets split up? When your opponents attack in the dead of night when you are asleep and not wearing armor? Been through a scenario when you don't have access to your weapons or magic items?
I have. Plenty of times.
Being able to punch like a monk of just a few levels beneath yours, having flurry of blows, getting a +3 dodge bonus to AC, and gaining a ki pool are all good things for when the unexpected happens. And if I am reading these posts right, the VMC (variant multi-class) Monk doesn't require you to be lawful to gain those abilities.
MA
No. As a player I don't split the party. If the others insist then I would go with whoever had the most people. As a GM my players have not done that because they always felt like it would be a bad idea, and 99% of the time it was a bad idea. At best it was not a good one.
I played in way of the wicked, but I was level one so I had no magic items anyway. In another game I had to go to the equivalent of a royal ball, and no weapons were allowed, but it did not really affect anything.
Opponents have attacked me at night, but I generally was playing a ranger. I had this ranger thing going on for a while. I have also played a cleric with access to barkskin so it was not that painful.
Basically the times this would have really mattered has not come up for me.
Unless something(s) is CR+2 or higher not wearing armor is not going to make it a threat.<--I am only speaking for most of the games I have played in. I think in a less optimized group it would have mattered more, but in that case we would have come up with other solutions.
Again, I don't have the book, but, from what I've seen, wouldn't the Unchained Monk pair, relatively, well with the Champion of Irori prestige class? Full BAB, good saves, levels stack for the Monk's AC bonus, flurry of blows, stunning fist, Ki Pool (at 2nd level) and unarmed strike and they stack for the Paladin's Smite Evil when determining the amount of damage dealt and the Paladin's Lay on Hands (at 2nd level Champion of Irori).
It would be a fairly late entry into the class, however. You're likely to want to stick around in Monk until level 5 for your Style Strike, and likely to want 2 levels of Paladin in order to gain his Lay on Hands ability.
Since Paladin's have the Channel Energy class feature (at level 2 anyway), a Champion of Irori can take the Guided Hand feat for Wisdom on his attack rolls; and if the GM is lenient, they could use the Guided property on an Amulet of Mighty Fist for Wisdom to damage as well. This would pair well with the Monk's dependency on his Ki Pool, which can also be used to fuel more Smite Evils and more Lay on Hands.
Would this not make for a Defensive juggernaut that maintains a solid offense via his Smite Evil/Smite Chaos abilities?
You need 4th level before you get Channel, and technically speaking Paladins get Channel Positive Energy, not the Channel Energy class feature.
So you're level 10 before you even enter the PrC, and have blown 2 Feats just to get Wis to attack (you still need Str for damage, so that's pretty much pointless).
You need 4th level before you get Channel, and technically speaking Paladins get Channel Positive Energy, not the Channel Energy class feature.
So you're level 10 before you even enter the PrC, and have blown 2 Feats just to get Wis to attack (you still need Str for damage, so that's pretty much pointless).
Ah! Damn... I forgot Paladin's didn't get it at 2nd level along with Lay on Hands. That's unfortunate, I'd really hoped that would work because the Champion of Irori just oozes all kinds of flavor.
[Edit] By the way, I mentioned the Guided Property above which lets you use your Wisdom for attack and damage. But it's a magic item that may not be allowed by GMs and basically takes up the same space as an Agile amulet would. Still, a Guided Amulet with a Wisdom focused Monk would make it a lot easier to have a functionable Ki Pool, good Will save and high enough AC to tank through things.
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I wouldn't say there's "consensus" on anything but the new flurry and the style strikes, and those only because they are the the only unarguable upgrades. The rest of that list does comprise the most common issues people have put forward about the class, but there have been multiple commenters opposing just about all of those complaints throughout.
I was there in most of those threads, and many reasons against them were indeed made - but not backed up with hard figures, as those highlighting the monk's flaws did. One of the main comments was that "monks make great mage-killers" - alas, with the nerfed Will save, this is no longer true.
I think the biggest problem that may have been had was that while the devs made an attempt to address the monk mechanically, they didn't have a clear concept of "monk" other than a set of mechanical stats. I can understand that this is something the role-player should apply, but plenty of other classes have been made that have a clear "focus" and concept. For example, for better or worse they have made the Unchained Rogue a dex-focussed character with Weapon Finesse and dex-to-damage as class features. Personally, I think these should have been optional features (yes, I have seen a strength-focussed rogue!) but that's the way they went: they had a clear idea of the rogue as quick-and-clever.
Now my understanding of the monk is as a spiritual warrior, a philosopher-priest who uses discipline to hone body, mind, and spirit. But there's no clear focus other than the martial arts angle obvious in the design of either the original class or the unchained version. I'd love to know what concept, if any, Jason had in mind.
classes have been made that have a clear "focus" and concept. For example, for better or worse they have made the Unchained Rogue a dex-focussed character with Weapon Finesse and dex-to-damage as class features. Personally, I think these should have been optional features (yes, I have seen a strength-focussed rogue!) but that's the way they went: they had a clear idea of the rogue as quick-and-clever.
Now my understanding of the monk is as a spiritual warrior, a philosopher-priest who uses discipline to hone body, mind, and spirit. But there's no clear focus other than the martial arts angle obvious in the design of either the original class or the unchained version. I'd love to know what concept, if any, Jason had in mind.
You can still be a Str based Rogue, you are just less supported vs old rogue.
An unchained STR rogue archetype that specifically trades away weapon finesse and dex to damage could be interesting.
An unchained STR rogue archetype that specifically trades away weapon finesse and dex to damage could be interesting.I'm expecting we'll see that in the future. Trade away finesse training for power attack at 1st and one more feat from selection of str combat feats at 3rd
Straight-up dropping Finesse Training for Two-Weapon Fighting at lv1, Double Slice at lv3, ITWF at lv8, and GTWF at lv 15 would be appropriate for a Rogue.
Although right now I like the focus on Dex.
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You can still be a Str based Rogue, you are just less supported vs old rogue.
Oh I agree. It's just not how I would have done it - I'd have left Finesse Rogue as a rogue talent and given the rogue an extra talent at first level, for example. It leaves the customization up to the player. Other talents might easily have included the TWF feats, the dex-to-damage option, etc.
The more flexibility you build in, the less a class needs archetypes and the more variation you get within a class.
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I wouldn't say there's "consensus" on anything but the new flurry and the style strikes, and those only because they are the the only unarguable upgrades. The rest of that list does comprise the most common issues people have put forward about the class, but there have been multiple commenters opposing just about all of those complaints throughout.I was there in most of those threads, and many reasons against them were indeed made - but not backed up with hard figures, as those highlighting the monk's flaws did. One of the main comments was that "monks make great mage-killers" - alas, with the nerfed Will save, this is no longer true.
I wasn't talking about any threads but this one, nor any version of the monk but the Unchained version. And frankly, "backed up with hard figures" is something that this thread's been pretty light on, particularly from the people who have expressed disappointment with the changes.
For example, the idea that "armed monks rather than unarmed monks [are] mechanically superior." I'm the only one who has posted anything even close to an actual side-by-side comparison, and the back-of-the-envelope calculations didn't really seem to support the "armed is better" hypothesis.
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I wasn't talking about any threads but this one, nor any version of the monk but the Unchained version. And frankly, "backed up with hard figures" is something that this thread's been pretty light on, particularly from the people who have expressed disappointment with the changes.
Why repeat numbers we've crunched a hundred times before if nothing has changed?
For example, the idea that "armed monks rather than unarmed monks [are] mechanically superior." I'm the only one who has posted anything even close to an actual side-by-side comparison, and the back-of-the-envelope calculations didn't really seem to support the "armed is better" hypothesis.
Certainly, here’s the back of my envelope:
Let’s assume a 10th level monk with 20 Strength (16 +2 levels +2 Belt) and Power Attacking. Assume 1/3 WBL for weapon, which is 20,000gp.Unarmed monk is attacking for 1d10 base damage, and can afford a +2 AoMF. That gives him +7 static bonus, then Power Attack for +6, and assuming Improved Critical a 10% threat chance. That gives us 18.5 x 1.1 = 20.35 before we factor odds to hit.
Armed monk with a temple sword has only 1d8 base damage, and can afford a +3 weapon. He’s using it two-handed so he gets +7 from Strength and +3 from the weapon for +10. Then he’s using Power Attack for +9, and the Improved Critical gives him a 20% threat chance. That gives us 23.5 x 1.2 = 28.2 before we factor in odds to hit – which are better for this monk as he has an extra +1 from his weapon and can take Furious Focus to make his first attack with no penalty from Power Attack.
So quite a difference. Even if the unarmed monk uses a monk’s robe (damage to 2d6), and a feat chain like Dragon Style to add 1.5x strength bonus damage, he caps at 22 x 1.1 = 24.2. The armed monk is both more accurate and does more damage.
I'm the only one who has posted anything even close to an actual side-by-side comparison, and the back-of-the-envelope calculations didn't really seem to support the "armed is better" hypothesis.
I posted Wise Punch Man :)
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An unchained STR rogue archetype that specifically trades away weapon finesse and dex to damage could be interesting.I'm expecting we'll see that in the future. Trade away finesse training for power attack at 1st and one more feat from selection of str combat feats at 3rdStraight-up dropping Finesse Training for Two-Weapon Fighting at lv1, Double Slice at lv3, ITWF at lv8, and GTWF at lv 15 would be appropriate for a Rogue.
Although right now I like the focus on Dex.
i can see losing finesse training for a feat at level 1 and a feat at level 3, but not four feats; even two feats is pushing from cheddar into gouda territory since you can now get dex to damage with a +1 weapon enchant...
Certainly, here’s the back of my envelope:
Let’s assume a 10th level monk with 20 Strength (16 +2 levels +2 Belt) and Power Attacking. Assume 1/3 WBL for weapon, which is 20,000gp.Unarmed monk is attacking for 1d10 base damage, and can afford a +2 AoMF. That gives him +7 static bonus, then Power Attack for +6, and assuming Improved Critical a 10% threat chance. That gives us 18.5 x 1.1 = 20.35 before we factor odds to hit.
Armed monk with a temple sword has only 1d8 base damage, and can afford a +3 weapon. He’s using it two-handed so he gets +7 from Strength and +3 from the weapon for +10. Then he’s using Power Attack for +9, and the Improved Critical gives him a 20% threat chance. That gives us 23.5 x 1.2 = 28.2 before we factor in odds to hit – which are better for this monk as he has an extra +1 from his weapon and can take Furious Focus to make his first attack with no penalty from Power Attack.So quite a difference. Even if the unarmed monk uses a monk’s robe (damage to 2d6), and a feat chain like Dragon Style to add 1.5x strength bonus damage, he caps at 22 x 1.1 = 24.2. The armed monk is both more accurate and does more damage.
Although true it's not like the unarmed version is extremely far behind the weapon version, and all the style strikes require unarmed attacks - so that would mess with the weapon users karma a bit.
Instead of Dragon Style I think that Tiger Style might be better by negating the need to take an attack penalty to Power Attack.
Although true it's not like the unarmed version is extremely far behind the weapon version, and all the style strikes require unarmed attacks - so that would mess with the weapon users karma a bit.
Roughly 40% behind, +1 worse to hit, and the weapon gets an attack without the penalty. That's pretty significant in my book. Also, the style strikes require flurry of blows - but, for example, flying kick might require one unarmed attack, but the rest could be made armed. I agree it's an issue but not a huge one.
Remember the basis of combat is hit and do damage to the other guy, the more you hit, the more damage you do, the better the result for you.
Instead of Dragon Style I think that Tiger Style might be better by negating the need to take an attack penalty to Power Attack.
Yes, but that gives you a penalty to AC instead, and on a strength-focussed monk that's going to hurt. Great if you can be sure of finishing the other guy so he can't hit you back, but otherwise...ouch!
