It's just like how Weapon Focus gives more than a 5% accuracy increase.First I've heard that. How do you figure?
I think, and I could be totally off on this one, it deals with Math. I mean prob and stats. We can look and say it provides a 5% increase as it means we increased the numbers that result in a positive result by 1 on a d20. I think the increased or decreased percentage chance is applying more advanced probability/statistics. I took the class I passed the class, I have since had very little real world use for the class in my job so have forgotten most of the class.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Shisumo! Honestly trying to participate in a thread while playing ranked League of Legends is a lot harder than I expected.
So far, I'm loving what I hear about Unchained Monk. Let's get past the will save and go by the other factors for a moment?
+Full BAB (easy access to feats).
+Style strikes applying to every flurry.
+Ki Powers that Mean Something.
Let's talk about what I mean by Ki Powers that mean something for a moment.
Observe every monk archetype before now: we have "spend a ki point for an extra attack", which is decent when you get it, and loses value as you level. We have "Spend 1 ki for 20 foot move speed for one round", which is nearly useless. We could list examples for hours, but the gist is: ki powers, except for the ones that let you recreate spell effects for X minutes/hours, were amazingly useless. Duration too short, effects too weak, cost too high, you name it, they were awful.
Now, I'm reading that monks get a ki power that's +30 foot move speed for 1 minute through a swift action? That's awesome. Abundant step at lower levels so I could actually use dimensional dervish during a character's life span? Amazing. The point I'm getting at is this: if all the ki-powers have improved staying power for their cost, then suddenly, your limited points pool becomes amazingly useful, as the effects last longer and are powerful enough to make them worth investing in.
I'm waiting to get my copy of the book, but my questions for people who do have all the information are:
1- Are the other Ki-powers equally cost effective?
2- Did they FINALLY fix the bonus feat list to just be any feat you qualify for, or is it still that ridiculously useless list? (If I hear "Still The Dumb List", I'm flipping the table, taking my ball, and going home.)
3- Besides going dimensional dervish or flying kick, what abilities are there that allow a monk to not be trapped in the old problem of the Immobile damage dealing target vs. The speedster who can't use his mobility to fight effectively after moving? Not including style feats of course. I just want to know what's specifically built into the class to avoid that.
Thanks!
-RF
1- Are the other Ki-powers equally cost effective?
Few of them are what I'd call "cost effective". Considering your Ki Pool is the same size (that is, tiny), and most of the good ones cost 2+ Ki, you get to use a solid half of what the class gets maybe 3-5 times per day, collectively.
2- Did they FINALLY fix the bonus feat list to just be any feat you qualify for, or is it still that ridiculously useless list? (If I hear "Still The Dumb List", I'm flipping the table, taking my ball, and going home.)
Still the dumb list. There weren't even any additions to the dumb list.
3- Besides going dimensional dervish or flying kick, what abilities are there that allow a monk to not be trapped in the old problem of the Immobile damage dealing target vs. The speedster who can't use his mobility to fight effectively after moving? Not including style feats of course. I just want to know what's specifically built into the class to avoid that.
Not much. Maybe whatsit called. One of the Style Strikes works as a Bull Rush. So at higher levels when you can do 2 Style Strikes in a Flurry you can shove a dude backwards and then Flying Kick after him, I guess.
Ahem. Thank you Shisumo.
╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Criticism: if this is unchained, why remain chained to the worst, most restrictive bonus feat list in Pathfinder!?
Okay. That said, what about my other two questions?
EDIT: Ahem. Thank you Rynjin.
And because this is starting to really bother me all of a sudden, can we talk about how ATROCIOUS the new Quivering Palm is?
-You must choose it as a Ki power
-It now takes a Standard
-It eats FOUR F~%%ING KI POINTS
-Nothing else about it was changed.
Dear god, WHY?
And because this is starting to really bother me all of a sudden, can we talk about how ATROCIOUS the new Quivering Palm is?
-You must choose it as a Ki power
-It now takes a Standard
-It eats FOUR F$@+ING KI POINTS
-Nothing else about it was changed.Dear god, WHY?
oO
WTF????!!!!
How I feel the Monk was handled: 1:55 to 4:50
Ha! They may have you surrounded, but they can't hold you down! Beat their ass, Little Monk!
Ooh... that hurt... Improvised weapons? Hell yeah! Anything and everything is your weapon, Little Monk!
HA! TAKE THAT, YA JERK!
Whooo!!! Beat their ass!
OW! Wait, what?
No... Paizo...
Ha! Can't beat the Little Monk like that Paizo!
Paizo... please... stahp it!
*sniff* I trust you, Little Monk!
YES! You're bloody and bruise, Little Monk, but never broken!!!
IT'S F+@%ING ON, NOW!!!
No! Little Monk! Get back up!
YES!
KILL ALL TEH THINGS!!!
BOOYAH BIATCH!
No... wait...
Break free, little Monk! Break free!
NO!
WHY!!!! Little Monk! *hysterically* GET UP, LITTLE MONK!!!
*sobbiing* PLEASE Little Monk... GET UP!! Please...
@ Mark Seifter
A couple of questions:
1. Can you offer any insight into why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage? That one change seems, to me, to make other classes WANT to dip more in order to gain that extra bonus attack (at level 1). It also has the side effect of making two-handed monk weapons (quarterstaff, temple sword, etc.) overshadow (to some degree) unarmed strikes. Although since, to the best of my knowledge since I have not yet READ the Unchained Monk for myself, it does appear that Style Strikes are only available through unarmed attacks. Which is a mitigating factor for folks who play the Monk as a Class and not just a dip.
2. Echoing Rynjin and Lemmy above, why the change to Quivering Palm? It used to work (or at least I thought it did) just like Stunning Fist in that you picked an attack, declared it a Quivering Palm, and had to hit and score damage (i.e., penetrate DR) for it to function. Sure, it can be used more than once per day now (if you have enough ki points, that is), but what was the discussions about changing it? Why was it changed?
And on the Diamond Body issue. I am an avid monk player and frankly, I would rather than on an Oracle Curse as a permanent disability than give up my immunity to all poison once gained. It was that good of an ability.
MA
1. Can you offer any insight into why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage? That one change seems, to me, to make other classes WANT to dip more in order to gain that extra bonus attack (at level 1). It also has the side effect of making two-handed monk weapons (quarterstaff, temple sword, etc.) overshadow (to some degree) unarmed strikes. Although since, to the best of my knowledge since I have not yet READ the Unchained Monk for myself, it does appear that Style Strikes are only available through unarmed attacks. Which is a mitigating factor for folks who play the Monk as a Class and not just a dip.
You can't flurry if you're wearing armor, that alone prevents most classes from dipping Monk for the extra attack.
1. Can you offer any insight into why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage? That one change seems, to me, to make other classes WANT to dip more in order to gain that extra bonus attack (at level 1). It also has the side effect of making two-handed monk weapons (quarterstaff, temple sword, etc.) overshadow (to some degree) unarmed strikes. Although since, to the best of my knowledge since I have not yet READ the Unchained Monk for myself, it does appear that Style Strikes are only available through unarmed attacks. Which is a mitigating factor for folks who play the Monk as a Class and not just a dip.You can't flurry if you're wearing armor, that alone prevents most classes from dipping Monk for the extra attack.
Most, but not all. How about a shape-shifting druid? A barbarian (ala Conan of the movies) who isn't expecting heavy combat? A swashbuckling rogue? Or (heaven forbid) an unarmored Cleric?
MA
Now that you mentioned Conan, I have a question... Is there anything in the book to allow other classes to make functional unarmed/unarmored characters? Or are we still dependent on multiclassing and a few rare archetypes?
|
Most, but not all. How about a shape-shifting druid? A barbarian (ala Conan of the movies) who isn't expecting heavy combat? A swashbuckling rogue? Or (heaven forbid) an unarmored Cleric?
MA
Druids have always been rather motivated to dip Monk, as have unarmored Clerics. And Barbarians have an Alignment restriction very thoroughly getting in the way.
As for Swashbuckling Rogues, they often go TWF, which provides more attacks than a Monk dip (eventually), and (as of Unchained) they rely on Dex for damage as well as attack bonus, making the ability to use two-handed monk weapons rather lacklustre (I don't think any one or two handed monk weapons are finesse-able). Sure, you can just fight bare-handed (or with a light monk weapon), and Monk 1/Rogue X is a viable build for that...but not one the particular change in question helps at all.
Now that you mentioned Conan, I have a question... Is there anything in the book to allow other classes to make functional unarmed/unarmored characters? Or are we still dependent on multiclassing and a few rare archetypes?
There are apparently several systems involving the removal of the 'Big 6' magic items, which would help with that (and probably allow it on a Monk at least)...but that's all I've heard of (though I don't have the book, so I'm just going by what I've heard).
I think that the Monk Variant Multi-Class gave unarmed strike (Fairly sure someone mentioned that)... but I don't know if it does anything to shore up you're defense.
Also, from what it sounds like, Wyroot Sansetsukon will be a popular weapon for UC Monks (Maybe with Improved Crit at 9th to recharge Ki).
I've bolded the parts to which I'd like to respond in particular. As someone who doesn't have the book and is depending on that hearsay, I think that perhaps that's actually not what has happened. You're at a time when someone in that position can't get accurate data about the improvements in other areas because of the over-prominence of the discussion on the saves that drowns it out. For the rogue, since there...I'm curious in general, going forward. How would you guys compare the Unchained rogue vs. the hypothetical regular CRB rogue that had a strong Will save progression? It's starting to sound like people here have a very high opinion of saves and would prefer the latter. Whereas, as someone who has played a good number of monks, I can't wait to use the Unchained monk, and as someone who has done a lot of thinking about the rogue, I would much prefer the Unchained rogue to the hypothetical Will save rogue I just mentioned.
One thing about all these Unchained classes is that actual play is going to reveal more than a read-through will. I'm looking forward to seeing how these classes turn out in everyone's games!
I think the new rogue got enough upgrades to replace a strong will save.
I don't have the book so I am going off of hearsay. Talents are improved. It can sneak attack even with concealment being involved. It can provide status affects. It gets something close to 3.5's skill tricks, and probably some other things I have not heard of. Will saves also don't seem like something that should be ingrained into the class, which is another problem with taking it away from the monk.The trade is not a bad one. I think the monk would have had less complaints had the improvements been better in other areas.
Short version: The rogue got direct upgrades. The monk got some tradeoffs that left it close to where it was before. <----I was assuming you were trying to find out why the rogue was getting less complaints.
I understand that I don't have the book yet, but I will be more than happy to give a more in depth analysis in about 7 days.
So, 'cause the Unchained Monk is apparently a bit controversial right now, I thought maybe a homebrew might calm peoples' t&&* a little that's a bit more of a direct upgrade - adding on effects to the monk's basic architecture.
Personally, I'm reserving judgment pretty much entirely; I don't think it's right that the Unchained Monk doesn't work with previous Monk Archetypes, but whatever - the Ninja doesn't work with Rogue Archetypes, so I guess it's no worse than if the Monk got an Alternate Class with an entirely-different name than "Unchained Monk", after all.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, 'cause the Unchained Monk is apparently a bit controversial right now, I thought maybe a homebrew might calm peoples' t~@# a little that's a bit more of a direct upgrade - adding on effects to the monk's basic architecture.
Personally, I'm reserving judgment pretty much entirely; I don't think it's right that the Unchained Monk doesn't work with previous Monk Archetypes, but whatever - the Ninja doesn't work with Rogue Archetypes, so I guess it's no worse than if the Monk got an Alternate Class with an entirely-different name than "Unchained Monk", after all.
The Ninja does work with Rogue Archetypes as the Ninja is simply an archetype for the Rogue as well. Ninja's can take the Scout archetype, for instance.
|
|
And because this is starting to really bother me all of a sudden, can we talk about how ATROCIOUS the new Quivering Palm is?
-You must choose it as a Ki power
-It now takes a Standard
-It eats FOUR F#&~ING KI POINTS
-Nothing else about it was changed.Dear god, WHY?
Yes
YesYes
Actually, no.
For what it's worth, they did loosen it up in one way: it no longer has a per/day restriction. You can use it as often as you can afford the ki for it.
|
|
It's more useful to compare Unchained Monk with Unarmed Strikes vs. Unchained Monk with, say, the Sansetsukon. With what information I have the Sansetsukon Monk sounds quite a bit better, though the touch attack on unarmed strikes sounds pretty promising.
Sansetsukon monk built on the same chassis:
Sansetuskon monk
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +21
------------------------------------------------------------------------
DEFENSE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
AC 33, touch 24, flat-footed 30
(armor +4, deflection +2, Dex +2, dodge +1, monk +3, natural +5, Wis +6)
hp 106 (12d10+36)
Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +16; +2 vs enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion, purity of body, still mind; Immune disease
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spd 70 ft., wind jump
Melee +4 sansetuskon +23/+18/+13 (1d10+13, 17-20/x2) or
+1 unarmed strike +19/+14/+9 (2d6+7, 20/x2) or
sansetukon flurry +23/+23/+23/+18/+13 (1d10+13, 17-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows, ki strike (cold iron, magic, lawful, silver), Stunning Fist 13/day (DC 22), style strike (flying kick, foot stomp)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th):
1 ki - barkskin
------------------------------------------------------------------------
STATISTICS
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Str 22 (+6), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 10 (+0), Wis 22 (+6), Cha 8 (-1)
Base Atk +12; CMB +18 (+25 disarm with sansetsukon); CMD 42 (44 vs disarm)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dodge, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (sansetsukon), Improved Disarm, Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will, Power Attack, Stunning Fist, Weapon Focus (sansetsukon)
Skills Acrobatics +17 (+45 jumping), Climb +14, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +21, Sense Motive +21, Stealth +10, Swim +14
Languages Common
SQ ki pool (12 pts), ki powers (diamond resilience, high jump, qinggong power – barkskin, sudden speed, wind jump)
Combat Gear none; Other Gear +4 sansetsukon[/] (32,308 gp), [i]belt of giant’s strength +4 (16,000), bodywrap of mighty strikes +1, bracers of armor +4 (16,000), cloak of resistance +4 (16,000 gp), headband of inspired wisdom +4 (16,000), ring of protection +2, 692 gp in various useful items.
You should also show a non-Dragon-Style monk. There are plenty of good styles out there - we need a "normal" unarmed strike monk example.
@Mark Seifter: there's a different issue that I would like to see corrected that relates to the monk. The Stunning Fist feat benefit states:
"A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn)."The part in parenthesis is, to my knowledge, supposed to be a reminder for the normal duration of "1 round". However, I've seen it stated by various people (including James Jacob) that read the parenthesis literally to mean that in a successful Stunning Fist as part of an Attack of Opportunity, the effect still wears off at the start of your next turn - rather than at the start of the creature's turn who's initiative was active at the time.
If I were to rewrite the bit you quoted, it would go:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before the current actor's next turn).
For an AoO, that means the start of the defender's next turn. For something that occurs on the monk's turn, it means the start of the monk's next turn. Either way, the monk gets the benefit of a full round of stun.
...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage?
If you ruin this for the rest of us I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN.
J/K
(But seriously, why question or risk messing up a positive change?)
|
|
we need a "normal" unarmed strike monk example.
I must confess I don't fully understand what you mean by "normal" in this context.
Dragon Style is useful as a baseline because it's entirely passive and nonreactive; it doesn't require the opponent to do anything and it doesn't rely on successful (or unsuccessful, for that matter) actions on the part of the PC himself to show its benefits. Snake Style may be awesome, for instance, but it is hard to demonstrate that without an actual gameplay experience to show how many times you get to make your Snake Fang counterattack or use the Snake Style Sense Motive "dodge."
Yes
Yes
Yes
Actually, no.For what it's worth, they did loosen it up in one way: it no longer has a per/day restriction. You can use it as often as you can afford the ki for it.
Actually, no. They had already modified Quivering Palm with the Quinggong monk archetype in Ultimate Magic. In that archetype, Quivering Palm was unchanged in how it worked except that it, A) required 2 ki points instead of a 1/day use, and B) came online at 16th level rather than 15th. So, yes, this is actually a step down in all areas where the ability is changed, not in any way a step up.
|
|
Actually, no. They had already modified Quivering Palm with the Quinggong monk archetype in Ultimate Magic. In that archetype, Quivering Palm was unchanged in how it worked except that it, A) required 2 ki points instead of a 1/day use, and B) came online at 16th level rather than 15th. So, yes, this is actually a step down in all areas where the ability is changed, not in any way a step up.Yes
Yes
Yes
Actually, no.For what it's worth, they did loosen it up in one way: it no longer has a per/day restriction. You can use it as often as you can afford the ki for it.
Is there a FAQ that clarifies that? Because the text doesn't seem to support that conclusion. RAW seems to say it costs 2 ki and has a 1/day limit. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing it at the moment.
I'm fairly certain that a monk using a monk weapon could always get 1.5 STR on all his attacks, this is why things like the temple sword and the Blade of the Sword Saint were such good weapons. The latter being the best weapon ever because it allows 1.5 STR plus the use of the unarmed damage die.
|
|
I'm fairly certain that a monk using a monk weapon could always get 1.5 STR on all his attacks, this is why things like the temple sword and the Blade of the Sword Saint were such good weapons. The latter being the best weapon ever because it allows 1.5 STR plus the use of the unarmed damage die.
Not while flurrying they couldn't. "A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands." They could get the better Power Attack trade-off, which still made it useful, but the ability to get the better Strength bonus is new to Unchained.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Doesn't that mean you could grab the Quniggong power and get a better quivering palm than the quivering palm in the book?
Yes.
Doesn't that mean you could grab the Quniggong power and get a better quivering palm than the quivering palm in the book?Yes.
I think Mark clarified at some point that you're supposed to take the newer version of the ability if it's a ki power in Unchained, not the Quinggong power from UM.
Shisumo, that is a very good question. I would never run it as Quinggong's Quivering Palm ki power required both 2 ki points AND could only be used once a day, as that's clearly not the intent...but then, I've been wrong about seemingly obvious and nonsensical rules like this in Pathfinder before.
|
|
Shisumo, that is a very good question. I would never run it as Quinggong's Quivering Palm ki power required both 2 ki points AND could only be used once a day, as that's clearly not the intent...but then, I've been wrong about seemingly obvious and nonsensical rules like this in Pathfinder before.
I honestly would probably have agreed with you about the intent (and would probably houserule it that way if anyone in my playgroup ever hit 16th level with a monk), but then Unchained's come out and now I'm not sure if that even was the intent or not...
...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage?If you ruin this for the rest of us I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN.
J/K
(But seriously, why question or risk messing up a positive change?)
Because I want to know what the intent behind it was. The rationale of the change.
:)
MA
...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage?If you ruin this for the rest of us I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN.
J/K
(But seriously, why question or risk messing up a positive change?)
Because I want to know what the intent behind it was. The rationale of the change.
:)
MA
Just be sure to make it absolutely clear to the designers that you are not looking to have it changed, and I think we can still be friends. :P
Just be sure to make it absolutely clear to the designers that you are not looking to have it changed, and I think we can still be friends. :P...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage?If you ruin this for the rest of us I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN.
J/K
(But seriously, why question or risk messing up a positive change?)
Because I want to know what the intent behind it was. The rationale of the change.
:)
MA
I have to be honest - for a monk that doesn't mind using a weapon (which allows the full +10 enchantment stack) this change alone is a game changer.
we need a "normal" unarmed strike monk example.
I must confess I don't fully understand what you mean by "normal" in this context.
Dragon Style is useful as a baseline because it's entirely passive and nonreactive; it doesn't require the opponent to do anything and it doesn't rely on successful (or unsuccessful, for that matter) actions on the part of the PC himself to show its benefits. Snake Style may be awesome, for instance, but it is hard to demonstrate that without an actual gameplay experience to show how many times you get to make your Snake Fang counterattack or use the Snake Style Sense Motive "dodge."
I'm saying the unarmed strike damage is inflated by the Dragon Style. This is of course a good thing for the specific character; but it is important to consider "normal" unarmed monk damage (the baseline without Dragon Style). There are *a lot* of good styles available. Picking the one style that is the most beneficial for raw unarmed damage is not suitable to understand the baseline for Unchained monks.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just be sure to make it absolutely clear to the designers that you are not looking to have it changed, and I think we can still be friends. :P...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage?If you ruin this for the rest of us I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN.
J/K
(But seriously, why question or risk messing up a positive change?)
Because I want to know what the intent behind it was. The rationale of the change.
:)
MA
You know people are going to complain the a monk is better with weapons than when they are unarmed. Dragon Style feats and the amulet of natural attacks are not going to be needed as much.
Personally I like it, and my answer would be to buff the monk's unarmed attacks than to nerf the weapon attacks if anything is done about it.
You know people are going to complain the a monk is better with weapons than when they are unarmed.
Which I find somewhat silly since both in real life and in fantasy literature/multimedia, martial artists with weapons are almost always more dangerous than martial artists of equivalent training without weapons.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I got the book in the mail yesterday and my general feelings are that it's a huge improvement over normal monk. I'm not even really sore about the loss of the good will save. But I do have a sore spot.
The Ki powers suck. Well that's more strongly worded than it needs to be but a lot of the ki powers are fairly conservative given how much ki a monk gets. Some of them I wish went the Combat Trick route (has an 'always on' ability that does something more with ki, like slow fall should just work on its own and be able to be used without a wall with a ki point or two.) and with a lot of ki powers, you cant get through too many of them per day. The good thing is that there's room for more ki powers, or more Qinggong powers if you want to be sneaky about improving old monk too, but as it is the list of ki powers is kind of lackluster for me.
I also feel like the monk lost a lot by being full BAB. I blame that for the will save loss and the ki powers being conservative. In fact I think some sleep was lost over how powerful the Ki powers should be. Case point, you can actually cheat slow fall as a power that uses zero ki if you get it as a qinggong power instead of the listed ki power. Same thing goes for a cheaper Quivering Palm, Daimond Soul, and Daimond Body. Ki powers are a bit of a mess.
I'm not terribly fond of the elemental one. Could have tied into elemental fist and enabled a lot more builds that revolve around the elemental style feats. Speaking of style feats I'm unsure as to why those weren't just put on the bonus feat list.
Flying Kick feels too good not to be baked in but overall I think the style strikes could have been a bigger list. That list along with the Ki Power list could use some expansion which could come from paizo or 3pp.
I feel like I'm more likely to make a dex monk or make wisdom my primary stat and strength my secondary stat considering that there are multiple ways to add bonus damage. I really have to try thing out.
On the third party front the new monk is amazing. A Fistful of Denarii has a feat that takes advantage of the monk's lack of armor but full BAB making it's dodge bonus scale to up to +6. Way of Ki sits in a weird place. It adds great things to the bonus feat list but grants more things that absorb ki making me want to let them take those in place of ki powers, especially since they can potentially shore up their will saves better that way.
Just be sure to make it absolutely clear to the designers that you are not looking to have it changed, and I think we can still be friends. :P...why the text on Flurry of Blows was changed to allow for Two-Handed Weapons to gain 1.5x Str-bonus on damage?If you ruin this for the rest of us I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN.
J/K
(But seriously, why question or risk messing up a positive change?)
Because I want to know what the intent behind it was. The rationale of the change.
:)
MA
You know people are going to complain the a monk is better with weapons than when they are unarmed. Dragon Style feats and the amulet of natural attacks are not going to be needed as much.
Personally I like it, and my answer would be to buff the monk's unarmed attacks than to nerf the weapon attacks if anything is done about it.
I remember the old days of 1E, when the Monk only got those extra attacks (up to FOUR, which was huge!) with his 'open-hand attacks'. Use a weapon, and you went back to 1 attack per round, the same as every class in the PHB except the Fighter. But, in compensation, the 1E Monk also got to add his Monk Class level as bonus damage to any weapon attack (this did NOT include 'open-hand attacks', by the way).
So, yeah. I'm cool with it and with the introduction of Style Strikes (which cannot be used with a weapon) it doesn't render UAS irrelevant.
I just want to know why the designers saw fit to make that change, especially if they were worried about the first few levels of the Monk being too good for dippers.
MA
You know people are going to complain the a monk is better with weapons than when they are unarmed.Which I find somewhat silly since both in real life and in fantasy literature/multimedia, martial artists with weapons are almost always more dangerous than martial artists of equivalent training without weapons.
There is no argument here, but the monk is supposed to be "the" unarmed combatant whose schick is unarmed combat. I have just decided to let that one go, and accept that a monk with weapons is just more efficient.
A Fistful of Denarii...
I have this pdf. I think it was about a dollar when I purchased it. I need to look at it again.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know people are going to complain the a monk is better with weapons than when they are unarmed.Which I find somewhat silly since both in real life and in fantasy literature/multimedia, martial artists with weapons are almost always more dangerous than martial artists of equivalent training without weapons.
Not in the ones I read, for the most part.
And regardless of other media, half the class' abilities are based around being unarmed and unarmored.
And even putting aside that, every schmoe in the game can swing a sword, but not many can pull of good unarmed combat. The Monk should, at the least, be just as competent with his fists as his weaponry.
Flying Kick feels too good not to be baked in but overall I think the style strikes could have been a bigger list. That list along with the Ki Power list could use some expansion which could come from paizo or 3pp.I feel like I'm more likely to make a dex monk or make wisdom my primary stat and strength my secondary stat considering that there are multiple ways to add bonus damage. I really have to try thing out.
On the third party front the new monk is...
So you think they didn't change the monk enough. They should have went farther in their ideas.
|
|
The Monk should, at the least, be just as competent with his fists as his weaponry.
Not necessarily. He needs to be competent with his fists. He needs to be way more competent with his fists than other classes, at least the ones not also focused on unarmed combat. That doesn't automatically mean he needs to be equally competent with his fists as with weapons; it certainly could be that way, but I don't know that it has to be.
The Monk should, at the least, be just as competent with his fists as his weaponry.Not necessarily. He needs to be competent with his fists. He needs to be way more competent with his fists than other classes, at least the ones not also focused on unarmed combat. That doesn't automatically mean he needs to be equally competent with his fists as with weapons; it certainly could be that way, but I don't know that it has to be.
It does, otherwise it undermines the "unarmed combat" thing. Thematically it means an unarmed Monk is knowingly gimping himself (if he picked up a word he'd immediately be 1.5x better).
Mechanically, it means there's no real reason but flavor to choose your fists.
Granted, that is an extreme (the Style Feats alone make unarmed use tempting) but you get the general idea I'm coming from.