[Unchained] The Monk Unchained


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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master arminas wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:

Does the Unchained Monk have any interesting new support abilities?

A couple. Ki guardian allows the monk to spend ki points to make saving throws against AoE or multiple target effects on behalf of his allies; insightful wisdom allows the monk to spend 2 ki as an immediate action to allow an ally to reroll an attack or saving throw.

I do like those . . . I'd like them better if the monk had more than 1/2 his monk levels + Wisdom bonus in his ki pool. :(

MA

Ah well monks can grab extra ki as a feat, humans can add 1/4 their level into ki as a favored class bonus.

If you built the Monk like I do my magus, then you can have ridiculous amounts of Ki. My level 15 magus currently has 32 arcane pool points.

So my estimate is that with investment you can turn that ki pool into 1.75 level + wisdom.


Rhedyn wrote:
master arminas wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Mathmuse wrote:

Does the Unchained Monk have any interesting new support abilities?

A couple. Ki guardian allows the monk to spend ki points to make saving throws against AoE or multiple target effects on behalf of his allies; insightful wisdom allows the monk to spend 2 ki as an immediate action to allow an ally to reroll an attack or saving throw.

I do like those . . . I'd like them better if the monk had more than 1/2 his monk levels + Wisdom bonus in his ki pool. :(

MA

Ah well monks can grab extra ki as a feat, humans can add 1/4 their level into ki as a favored class bonus.

If you built the Monk like I do my magus, then you can have ridiculous amounts of Ki. My level 15 magus currently has 32 arcane pool points.

So my estimate is that with investment you can turn that ki pool into 1.75 level + wisdom.

4th level: 2 + Wis

5th level (Extra Ki): 2 + Wis + 2
6th level: 3 + Wis + 2
7th level (Extra Ki): 3 + Wis + 4
8th level: 4 + Wis + 4
9th level (Extra Ki): 4 + Wis + 6
10th level: 5 + Wis + 6
11th level (Extra Ki): 5 + Wis + 8
12th level: 6 + Wis + 8
13th level (Extra Ki): 6 + Wis + 10
14th level: 7 + Wis + 10
15th level (Extra Ki): 7 + Wis + 12
16th level: 8 + Wis + 12
17th level (Extra Ki): 8 + Wis + 14
18th level: 9 + Wis + 14
19th level (Extra Ki): 9 + Wis + 16
20th level: 10 + Wis + 16

Golly gee wilikers! Look at that! By spending EIGHT feats all on Extra Ki, than by 20th level I have a total of 26 + Wisdom bonus in my ki pool! Good thing I don't really need those eight feats for combat or anything.

Human favored class? Add 1 point at 4th, 2 at 8th, 3 at 12th, 4 at 16th, and 5 at 20th. I'd rather have the extra skill points (20) or extra hit points (20).

EDIT: And take a look at the ki point cost. Each round of combat, the monk is looking at spending at least 1 ki point (for an extra attack, extra movement, or a +4 dodge bonus). Now, he has to spend ki to slow fall. Wholeness of body? 2 ki for 1d8+level . . . man, I wish those potions weren't so darned expensive! 2 ki for Diamond Soul (spell resistance). 1 point to neutralize poison (as a standard action). 1 point to jump farther (but still limited by your movement). 2 points to use abundant step. Use empty body for 3 points. Use quivering palm (which used to cost NOTHING) for FOUR points.

The monk burns through ki like mad. He just does not have enough to last a typical adventuring day (unless your day consists of just one encounter).

MA


Extra X is supposed to be just that. Extra. Not required.

Shadow Lodge

Cat-thulhu wrote:
His will save is still going to be ok since he'll have a good wisdom, and in the end a difference of good to poor is +6, pretty trivial in the whole bonus scheme.

I think it's important to have a look at the extent to which wisdom will actually make up the difference in the will save.

Revel's guide suggests a 14 Wis for point buys between 15 and 25 points, and Treantmonk suggests a 14 Wis at 10 to 20 but with heavier dumping. Note that neither of these suggestions allows for an Int high enough for Combat Expertise and related maneuvers. They also require dumping Cha.

14 Wis (+2) is equal to the difference between a good and poor save. The +6 at level 20 is achievable by adding a +6 headband and 2 level increases (or inherent bonuses) to get Wis 22. So the Wisdom roughly accounts for the difference between a good and poor save, but no more. This would mean that a monk with a poor will save would have:

1) A better will save than most classes with a poor save.

2) A roughly equal will save to classes with a good save but no Wis-based features (thus Wis 8-12), the hunter, and maybe the ranger and gunslinger, which have a poor will save but also good Wis.

3) A worse will save than wis-based casters (cleric, druid, inquisitor, shaman, warpriest), paladins, and oracles with the Divine Protection feat.

If you think that's OK that's fine. I think it's a bit disappointing, but will suspend overall judgment until I can read the whole class.


Rynjin wrote:
Extra X is supposed to be just that. Extra. Not required.

So?

I have trouble seeing myself playing a magus that doesn't just take extra x. When I run an alchemist, I pretty much just grab extra X. My barbarians are also extra X heavy. Heck the only class I don't get much use of extra X out of is the CRB rogue.

It's not my fault that most feats are just not really worth it.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
lemeres wrote:

I think I'll just stick with sohei- light armor, perfect saves, enough bonuses and item slots for bonuses that it is on par with other 3/4 BAB classes when it does standard actions/AoOs.

Throw on pummeling style, and the BAB thing is just a theoretical thing for qualifying for feats...most of the time.

The only bad thing about Sohei is that it doesn't stack with Drunken Master. *sigh* (And by mid levels a sohei's AC would be considerably higher without armor - though Brawling is nice.)

Oh yes, I never said that a sohei tanks with light armor. Just that it is much, much simpler when it comes to AC. Helps them out at early levels to become significantly less MAD (they don't have to turtle up with dex and wis to survive, and they can just get a decent str; stats I usually look for are like an inquisitor's).

Plus, you also have the option of grabbing gloves of dueling as well (you aren't using bracers of armor anymore), since it has weapon training and it is called out to work like weapon training (which is all that is needed, according to FAQs).

So that is a +4 to attack and damage from equipment, alongside the +3 from the class. They can hit as hard as an inquisitor when they aren't doing flurry. And when you pummel...gods help whatever poor fool is getting his head punched in, since you are more than a match for other martials. It is not hard to make those hits hurt (full power attack at full BAB on each 'hit' since there is no off hand, up to x2 str on each 'punch' with Horn of the Criosphynx feat, and other sources of tasty static damage)

Yeah, it kind of sucks that you have to wait until mid level to get a good source of ki....and that source seems PRETTY EVIL (there is room for argument about ki leech...but it can be a bit...much compared to just taking a shot of whiskey). At time same time... with pummeling charge as very much a thing by that level, getting ki from kills and criticals seems like a great deal.


I think the 20th level monk will be easily on-par with a "chained monk", thanks to the 19th-level ability. But it is kinda a shame that it takes so long to "catch up".

I'd say the improved martial ability and ki abilities more-or-less make up for it, though.


Two things really...

First when doing DPR on 'old flurry' vs. 'new flurry':

This was done on a 10th level character so did you start the fight 30 feet away?

Because if so new flurry is 'flying kick' and full flurry - meaning pounce essentially (flying kick = move up to your bonus speed at any time during a flurry which includes before the first blow). Because it's a flurry he can spend his ki for the extra attack.

Old flurry is 'move and get 1 attack'

'new flurry' is now 3 attacks ahead of old flurry.

2nd round...

Old flurry gets +8/+8/+3/+3 + ki attack +8

New flurry gets +10/+10/+5/+5 + ki attack +10 (elbow smash for the first +5 - does nonlethal damage though). Mind elbow smash is just one of several options (of which are +4 dodge AC, root target in place (can't move away), double damage on hit (like vital strike - extra damage die not doubled on crit), free combat maneuver, knockback, bypass all DR, make foe flat footed - the only one that grants the extra attack (at -5) is elbow smash however.

I fail to see how the old flurry is better in any way.

New flurry is +2/+2/+2/+2 better than the old flurry - and the ki strike is +2 better - and new flurry gives options other than that last attack at +5 depending on what you want to accomplish.

I like Ki Hurricane as well - it's a high cost - but double your speed (include monk bonus speed) and flurry of blows for 1 ki per hit with any movement up to your max at any time during the flurry. Must be 10th level - note while doing a flurry you can still do a style attack - so a 10th level medium sized monk will have 120' move at which point (at the end) they can move 30' and still pounce. That's 150' of movement and full attack for the cost of 3-5 ki points (depending on if you want that extra strike).

Do I think the unchained monk is perfect - undecided - I need to see it in action - however the stamina pool ability I think would finish the job - there are many (frankly awesome) stamina uses on all the combat feats, and I wonder if stamina should be on the monk bonus feat list or given for free.


Rhedyn wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Extra X is supposed to be just that. Extra. Not required.

So?

I have trouble seeing myself playing a magus that doesn't just take extra x. When I run an alchemist, I pretty much just grab extra X. My barbarians are also extra X heavy. Heck the only class I don't get much use of extra X out of is the CRB rogue.

It's not my fault that most feats are just not really worth it.

The difference being that those are trade-offs for Feat-like abilities that are better than Feats, and are all interesting and powerful on their own.

This would be trading most of your Feats for +2 Ki per day. Instead of fun stuff like Style feats, or doing anything more complex than "I power attack it".

Somehow I doubt you spend all your Feats on Extra Rage and Extra Bombs.


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I know I said I wanted to avoid delving too deep into the UM until I have it, but I have to say this:

My problem with the Monk Will save? A Monk making his Will save never used to be a problem for a party so they never had to worry about him turning on the party and ganking the casters.

Now, the class that is flavored in almost every incarnation of having an indomitable will along with a superior physique, as being 'one with thy innerself' and balanced in mind, body and spirit, has become more susceptible to mental influences.

CRB Monk with a Wisdom of 10 has a better will save than his Unchained Monk until he has a Wisdom of 22 (+6) and that's only making up the difference between the two.

Lowering the Monks Will save is, frankly, completely unacceptable, no matter what else changed. Lowering their fortitude or reflex would have been tolerable, because there have been depictions of Monks being drunk, or poisoned or failing to avoid obstacles. But very, very rarely do you see Monks falling under the sway of mental influences.

The Unchained Monk became a better killer, and in turn, became more likely to be used to kill the party.


Here are a few of Robert Jordan's post from the other thread about monk abilities:

Robert Jordan wrote:
Protoman wrote:
Anyone with the pdf willing to share what the unchained monk gets to boost will saves for peace of mind purposes? Robert Jordan mentioned something about a "Diamond Mind" ability few pages back.
I mentioned it in a previous post but Diamond Mind lets the monk deal with fear, something the core monk can't do anything with besides make the save or fail it. Diamond Mind let's the monk spend 1 ki point as a swift action to suppress fear as per the Remove Fear spell. They can also spend 2 ki points to activate it even when frightened or panicked. Have to be level 6 monk to pick it.
Robert Jordan wrote:
The Unchained monk has a Ki power option that's just Qinggong Power, what it says on the tin grab a power from the Qinggong Monk choices for the appropriate level.
Robert Jordan wrote:

The major complaints I always saw in regards to the monk, now to be fair I didn't haunt those forums too often since I never had issues in any of my games, was that it had issues hitting and lacked maneuverability.

The Unchained Monk helps both of those issues. Wisdom will still be a decent stat since it helps your AC and as has been pointed out a higher BaB and HD help reduce the dependency on two other stats.
In regards to things that Will saves help against the two most common things that arise are Fear effects and Enchantment effects. Unchained Monk still gets Still Mind they just get it 1 level later (4 instead of 3).
One of the new Ki Powers is Diamond Mind it lets you spend 1 Ki point as a swift action to suppress a Fear effect as per Remove Fear using your Monk level as the CL, you can spend 2 points and do it even when Frightened or Panicked. Gotta be a 6th level Monk to pick it.
At level 19 Unchained gets Flawless Mind where you get to roll twice on every Will save and take the better of the two, in addition if the effect lasts longer than 1 hour then every hour you get to attempt the save again. I think that those do a pretty solid job of conveying the mental fortitude of monastic training.

MA


Everything with a will save seems to suck on these forums. How about this, everyone has a good will save. Is that better?


Ckorik wrote:

Two things really...

First when doing DPR on 'old flurry' vs. 'new flurry'.

This was done on a 10th level character so did you start the fight 30 feet away?

Because if so new flurry is 'flying kick' and full flurry - meaning pounce essentially (flying kick = move up to your bonus speed at any time during a flurry which includes before the first blow). Because it's a flurry he can spend his ki for the extra attack.

Old flurry is 'move and get 1 attack'

'new flurry' is now 3 attacks ahead of old flurry.

That is the problem. There was already a solution to that problem- pummeling charge. It made those more than even in mobility (and I do not know if flying kick spends ki; if it does, then pummel is much, much better).

It was pretty much tailor made to solve a large, large swath of monk problems. Heck, even enhancement is less of a problem- since you blast through DR, you can use greater magic weapon/fang with impunity while using an amulet of natural armor instead.

And I will stick to my guns on the old monk...mostly because there was such a large mass of archetypes built to deal with the problem. Archetypes that gave options that are not available to the unchained monk.

Sohei would likely be working with a +9 or +11 bonus on hits if, depending on items. Maneuver master could have them blind, deaf, and nauseated with dirty tricks and the like (making them easy pickings, even with 'meh' melee). Tetori could hogtie ghosts before they even had time to ask 'lol wut?'

Anyway onto other issues- the thing that gets people concerned over will saves is not that having a poor will save ruins a class...but it adds new things to worry about during character creation. Just like being MAD means you have to worry about a lot of stats.

I am perfectly fine with patching up a will save on a fighter...and hell, I am rather good at it- half elf or half orc, a trait, a smidge of wisdom, iron will. I can handle it, and even make the caster cleric jealous until mid levels. But still... it is a new concern introduced into a class that already had a ton of concerns (AC without armor, getting past DR when using unarmed strikes, getting full attacks to meet your full potential, being MAD to have good defenses and still do damage, managing ki, etc.)

We came here hyped up because we were told things were going to be shaken up...but this is still the same 'new problems for old' that we always find. And honestly...I somewhat doubt some of these problems were still there to begin with (my pummeling sohei feels that way at least)


It wouldn't be unreasonable, considering how Will saves are prevalent, often high DC, and incredibly frustrating to deal with as a player because even the least of them often involves you sitting out an entire session.

You fail a Will save you might as well find something else to do for a few hours, because you certainly aren't going to be playing Pathfinder.

It's just one more thing you need to worry about. Core Monk at least had this going for it: I'm probably not going to fail a save, especially Will.

New Monk has all the same concerns about finding roundabout ways to shore up EVERY OTHER KIND of defense (Crappy AC because they can't wear armor, MADness because they need Wis to do any g&& d@~n thing, and so on) with the new, bonus concern of a poor Will save.


chbgraphicarts wrote:

(rangers got upped to d10 in 3.5; in 3rd they had a d8).

Actually, I believe rangers had a D10 in 3e and they got it decreased to a D8 in 3.5 which was a slight nerf. It was one I didn't agree with.


One change that I noticed (and I have the subscription) is that Improved unarmed strike for the Unchained Monk is very specific (and the list is limited) on which limbs are used with unarmed strikes.

This has the consequence of limiting it's interaction with natural attacks so that natural attacks will necessarily prevent the use of unarmed strikes with common limbs similar to manufactured weapons.

Or at least that is how I interpret things. Getting the input of the designer on this item would clarify things.

Also, flurry is tied to the ki pool (I suppose to balance out the increased BAB at higher levels).

This kind of balances out with the far strike monk needing to use Ki for his ranged unarmed strikes, and not being able to flurry with melee attacks.


Quintain wrote:

One change that I noticed (and I have the subscription) is that Improved unarmed strike for the Unchained Monk) is very specific (and the list is limited) on which limbs are used with unarmed strikes.

This has the consequence of limiting it's interaction with natural attacks so that natural attacks will necessarily prevent the use of unarmed strikes with common limbs similar to manufactured weapons.

Or at least that is how I interpret things. Getting the input of the designer on this item would clarify things.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Didn't we just go through this last year?

MA


In the context of just the Monk the loss of the will save is semi-sad for me because I haven't had underpowered monk problems for a long while (third party). and minimal problems in PFS since late last year. Its gotten to the point where I'm actually concerned that the unchained one might be too good just to appease players. Because the difference between what happens on the table and what the forums says happens is just way too large I cant really trust what anyone says until I see a product with my own two eyes and digest it for a few weeks.

In the context of the game as a whole the whole "bad will save therefore sucks" has been going around consistently unless the class has some kind will save boost or protection like the Barbarian. Because every encounter has some kind of dominate effect or what have you with impossible will saves.(Not true looking at the APs on my shelf.)


Tels wrote:
Lowering the Monks Will save is, frankly, completely unacceptable, no matter what else changed.

Well the one caveat is if they added new abilities to handle will save effects.

I'm very satisfied with the 5e monk so I will explain what they do. They essentially only have a good reflex save until level 14 when all their saves become good. At level 7 they can use their "standard action" to remove the charmed or frighten condition from themselves (which in 5e cover nearly all effective will saves). They also get monk abilities to counter a lot of "fort" save effects.

That would be an example of how you do not need all perfect saves as long as actual class abilities fill the thematic niche.


Malwing wrote:

In the context of just the Monk the loss of the will save is semi-sad for me because I haven't had underpowered monk problems for a long while (third party). and minimal problems in PFS since late last year. Its gotten to the point where I'm actually concerned that the unchained one might be too good just to appease players. Because the difference between what happens on the table and what the forums says happens is just way too large I cant really trust what anyone says until I see a product with my own two eyes and digest it for a few weeks.

In the context of the game as a whole the whole "bad will save therefore sucks" has been going around consistently unless the class has some kind will save boost or protection like the Barbarian. Because every encounter has some kind of dominate effect or what have you with impossible will saves.(Not true looking at the APs on my shelf.)

You only have to fail once to be the cause of a TPK.


Malwing wrote:
In the context of the game as a whole the whole "bad will save therefore sucks" has been going around consistently unless the class has some kind will save boost or protection like the Barbarian. Because every encounter has some kind of dominate effect or what have you with impossible will saves.(Not true looking at the APs on my shelf.)

It doesn't even have to come up that often (though it does...looking at the APs in MY library), it's just the fact that of the saves, failing a Will save is the least FUN.

Failed Fort? Eh, most of the time I take some abiity damage. Or I spend my free time working on a replacement character for the one that just ate it.

Failed Reflex? Lol I took a little damage. Whatever.

Failed Will? 9 times out of 10 a failed Will save leaves you alive, and relatively unharmed...but completely out of the game for prolonged periods of time.

Dominate? Gone.

Hold Person? Gone.

Sleep? Gone.

Any Dazing effect? Gone.

The list goes on. And on. And on. And on. And ooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnn.

Sovereign Court

I still didn't see a good will save monk pass the save vs a Kitsune Fey Bloodline Sorcerer but then again...this will save build is darn ridiculous.


By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

Sovereign Court

heh when I DM, I usually avoid the very sucky will save stuffs, I use them sparingly...most of the time, they do the stuffs players dislike the most:

-As early as level 1, sleep is basically a setup to kill characters, being helpless and all but well from experience, players are mostly the ones using it vs npc.
-Take control of your character or forces you to do something.
-Worst case scenario just die (Boss uses Blasphemy, someone fails a will save...of course since he is a boss, he is at least many level higher, permanently blind, deafen + paralyzed and coup de grace for finishing, now boss with bead of karma makes blasphemy disgusting fail will save you die.)
-A few will save kills...they are very rare tho.

Still tho, I have seen some of my players succumb to the occasional bad save but well the game must go on.

Designer

Malwing wrote:

By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:

(rangers got upped to d10 in 3.5; in 3rd they had a d8).

Actually, I believe rangers had a D10 in 3e and they got it decreased to a D8 in 3.5 which was a slight nerf. It was one I didn't agree with.

HA! You're right - oh, man, it's been so long since I played a 3.5 ranger I forgot that.

Though, now that you mention it, I do remember absolutely having KITTENS when I saw that they upped the Ranger to d10 HD, along with Rogues and Bards being d8s, and Sorc/Wizard being d6.

Seriously, half the reason I never understood people disliking Old Rogue was that Old Rogue was still LEAGUES better than the 3rd/3.5 Rogue with their piddling d6 HD.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:

By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.

Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.


All this grar about Will Saves sucking, and that things that require Will are bad and shouldn't be a tactical thing the DM has under his belt, and I'm chuckling because this is NOTHING new to Pathfinder:

There were PLENTY of times when a DM could have a Mage shunt things Dominate on you in 1st and 2nd Ed in order to take command of an imposing Fighter character with a poor Save vs Spell and proceed to go to town on your party.

Bear in mind that freakin' SUPERMAN can be dominated by mental attacks with relative ease - the guy had to go through special training just to try and put up mental barriers to prevent that, and even THEY aren't much of a match for people like J'onn J'ohns or Psy-Mon.

Hell, the ENTIRE JUSTICE LEAGUE save for Martian Manhunter and Batman can fairly easily fail their Will saves, with maybe a Green Lantern having a 50/50 shot of shrugging off mental attacks (Guy Gardner would suck, but Hal Jordan would probably make it).

If the reigning Patron Deity of "ZOMG OVERPOWERED!" can be controlled to try and kill mankind, I have no problem with Will being the rarest of good Saves for Martials.


Rynjin wrote:
Malwing wrote:
In the context of the game as a whole the whole "bad will save therefore sucks" has been going around consistently unless the class has some kind will save boost or protection like the Barbarian. Because every encounter has some kind of dominate effect or what have you with impossible will saves.(Not true looking at the APs on my shelf.)

It doesn't even have to come up that often (though it does...looking at the APs in MY library), it's just the fact that of the saves, failing a Will save is the least FUN.

Failed Fort? Eh, most of the time I take some abiity damage. Or I spend my free time working on a replacement character for the one that just ate it.

Failed Reflex? Lol I took a little damage. Whatever.

Failed Will? 9 times out of 10 a failed Will save leaves you alive, and relatively unharmed...but completely out of the game for prolonged periods of time.

Dominate? Gone.

Hold Person? Gone.

Sleep? Gone.

Any Dazing effect? Gone.

The list goes on. And on. And on. And on. And ooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnn.

Don't forget curses, or "so you've protected yourself from mind affecting effects? Well, we will just have to do something about that".

AKA- "That thing you do? You are no longer good at it".

Tanking your score by -6 to -12 is the vanilla option. Permanently making it so you can't do anything 75% of the time is one of the extreme listed option (does that include traveling? do they have to buy a wagon just to cart your rear around now?). Or how about the inability to heal with spells? dropping weapons 50% of the time (which might not affect a monk, depending on your focus)

Designer

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Malwing wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:

By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.
Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.

If it's, for instance, a maxed out gunslinger, and the gunslinger's turn comes up after whoever took control of her, there might be nothing you can do. While I've never seen a gunslinger TPK their allies, I have seen a gunslinger deal more damage than the rest of the party's combined hp in one round, to a target that had equal touch AC to anyone in the party.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:

By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.
Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.
If it's, for instance, a maxed out gunslinger, and the gunslinger's turn comes up after whoever took control of her, there might be nothing you can do. While I've never seen a gunslinger TPK their allies, I have seen a gunslinger deal more damage than the rest of the party's combined hp in one round, to a target that had equal touch AC to anyone in the party.

Situations like that would kill or incapacitate one character maybe but never seen it end as badly as that let alone a TPK. Part of that is because the APs haven't produced that kind of situation on a regular basis, part of that is because I don't prey on obvious weaknesses that any party has (including presenting parties of full casters with gangs of monk grapplers), and part of that, I'll admit, even the mundane classes have access to mind protection from third party products, assuming they think to prepare it.


The more I read, the more I'm looking forward to getting to see the new monk!

Designer

Malwing wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:

By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.
Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.
If it's, for instance, a maxed out gunslinger, and the gunslinger's turn comes up after whoever took control of her, there might be nothing you can do. While I've never seen a gunslinger TPK their allies, I have seen a gunslinger deal more damage than the rest of the party's combined hp in one round, to a target that had equal touch AC to anyone in the party.
Situations like that would kill or incapacitate one character maybe but never seen it end as badly as that let alone a TPK. Part of that is because the APs haven't produced that kind of situation on a regular basis, part of that is because I don't prey on obvious weaknesses that any party has (including presenting parties of full casters with gangs of monk grapplers), and part of that, I'll admit, even the mundane classes have access to mind protection from third party products, assuming they think to prepare it.

I'm with you. The targets hit by the gunslinger in my example were enemies. They just could have been allies. The worst I've seen was a gunslinger player back in the Boston Lodge who had the worst luck. Not only did she rarely crit enemies, she kept getting confused, rolling attack nearest, and then killing that nearest person, an ally several times (fortunately, most times they got better, as she often grouped with a cleric who had breath of life).

Anyways, digression aside. Back to your regularly scheduled monk talk!


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Oh snap, monks will just have to get Clear Spindles like the rest of us.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:

By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.
Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.
If it's, for instance, a maxed out gunslinger, and the gunslinger's turn comes up after whoever took control of her, there might be nothing you can do. While I've never seen a gunslinger TPK their allies, I have seen a gunslinger deal more damage than the rest of the party's combined hp in one round, to a target that had equal touch AC to anyone in the party.

Indeed, it doesn't need to be total TPK, it could be something like:

*Dominate Barbarian* "Kill the Cleric. Resist his spells."

Then the Barbarian turns and charges the Cleric and does his best to kill the Cleric. Say he manages to kill the Cleric? Chances are high he was the best bet for suppressing the Domination or removing it and now he turns on the rest of the party.

Or they dominate the party Archer etc.

Now the Monk is added to the list. Flying Kick + Flurry of Blows means he could conceivably drop or nearly drop the Cleric in a round. The party now needs to beat the Monk down, or hope the casters can stop the Domination.

Previously, the Monk was one of the least likely classes to succumb to such spells, but now it's about as likely as many others.

Scarab Sages

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I actually think save-or-suck/lose/die spells shouldn't even exist, save for the absolute rarest of circumstances (obscenely powerful monsters). While enchantment spells can make for some interesting roleplay scenarios (I actually fully played my character that got charmed by a div), the fact is that anything that puts players out of the game does nothing but waste time.

Sure, spells like Hold Person are nice when the players use them, but when you take one guy out of a fight, that's quite a long time, possibly even hours depending on the encounter, where they literally showed up for no reason, and if you want to establish a reasonable world where the NPCs and PCs are on a fairly even playing field, you need to remove these kinds of spells as a whole from the table.

But then, I'm a bit of an extremist.


Rhedyn wrote:
Tels wrote:
Lowering the Monks Will save is, frankly, completely unacceptable, no matter what else changed.

Well the one caveat is if they added new abilities to handle will save effects.

I'm very satisfied with the 5e monk so I will explain what they do. They essentially only have a good reflex save until level 14 when all their saves become good. At level 7 they can use their "standard action" to remove the charmed or frighten condition from themselves (which in 5e cover nearly all effective will saves). They also get monk abilities to counter a lot of "fort" save effects.

That would be an example of how you do not need all perfect saves as long as actual class abilities fill the thematic niche.

One of those new abilities only comes into play at 19th level, Rhedyn. The second applies only versus fear effects . . . retroactively. (I.e., you have to fail your save, become shaken, frightened, panicked, etc. and THEN you can spend an action (and a ki point) to regain control of yourself.

MA


Davor wrote:

I actually think save-or-suck/lose/die spells shouldn't even exist, save for the absolute rarest of circumstances (obscenely powerful monsters). While enchantment spells can make for some interesting roleplay scenarios (I actually fully played my character that got charmed by a div), the fact is that anything that puts players out of the game does nothing but waste time.

Sure, spells like Hold Person are nice when the players use them, but when you take one guy out of a fight, that's quite a long time, possibly even hours depending on the encounter, where they literally showed up for no reason, and if you want to establish a reasonable world where the NPCs and PCs are on a fairly even playing field, you need to remove these kinds of spells as a whole from the table.

But then, I'm a bit of an extremist.

I generally assume that the NPCs and PCs aren't on equal footing. Perhaps some BBEG will be very threatening but for the most part I put out CR<APL encounters in greater numbers if I have any say over it. Mostly because PCs are expected to fight multiple times per day; If there are enemies of comparable levels then the players are constantly subjected to the same kind of shenanigans that they dish out and while players love their power and broken abilities they do not always like it when those powers are turned against them in equal footing particularly when those powers take away any kind of control.

Designer

Tels wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:

By that logic Will saves shouldn't exist. Roll a d10 and if you roll a zero roll a new character. Or better yet just give everyone good will saves.

And what kind of meatgrinder games are going on where failed will saves are treated like instant TPKs? I've almost never seen that happen, but I've seen plenty of failed Will saves. I see them all the time. But the results are never as bad as what's insinuated on the forums. I wouldn't even be playing if that was that prevalent.

For the ones where a character turns on the party, when a player has a truly busted character, sometimes that character can kill the rest of the party in one round. It's one of the few cases where less powerful characters lead to less danger.
Preferably the entire party is effective enough where they're a danger. If one character is capable of killing the rest of the party in one round without some kind of favorable circumstance then the party has an entirely different problem.
If it's, for instance, a maxed out gunslinger, and the gunslinger's turn comes up after whoever took control of her, there might be nothing you can do. While I've never seen a gunslinger TPK their allies, I have seen a gunslinger deal more damage than the rest of the party's combined hp in one round, to a target that had equal touch AC to anyone in the party.

Indeed, it doesn't need to be total TPK, it could be something like:

*Dominate Barbarian* "Kill the Cleric. Resist his spells."

Then the Barbarian turns and charges the Cleric and does his best to kill the Cleric. Say he manages to kill the Cleric? Chances are high he was the best bet for suppressing the Domination or removing it and now he turns on the rest of the party.

Or they dominate the party Archer etc.

Now the Monk is added to the list. Flying Kick + Flurry of Blows means he could conceivably drop or nearly drop the Cleric in a round. The party now needs to beat the Monk down, or hope the casters can stop the Domination.

Previously, the Monk was one of the least likely classes to succumb to such spells, but now it's about as likely as many others.

Now, though I've tried to be fair in pointing out the badness that could happen on a failed Will save, I will say that the Unchained monk is still probably still less likely to get hit by an enchantment than anything but a paladin or Wisdom-based caster at many levels, due to combining Still Mind with Wisdom as an important stat. Unchained Monk wants Wisdom as a strong second stat for sure (after either Strength or Dex depending on what he uses to hit), which combined with Still Mind buys you a lot of benefit vs. enchantment in particular. At 4, for instance, if the Unchained monk has 16 Wisdom and a witch or wizard has 10 (fairly standard for those classes in point buy characters I've seen), then, cloak being equal, the monk is ahead of those casters by 2 for enchantments, and those casters don't surpass until level 14, and even then only assuming the monk doesn't boost Wisdom (and the monk ties again at 15 for one level). If the monk grabs a +6 Wis headband and the witch or wizard has a +2 Wis ioun stone to go with their +6 Int headband or something like that, the monk stays ahead indefinitely.


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Davor wrote:
I actually think save-or-suck/lose/die spells shouldn't even exist, save for the absolute rarest of circumstances (obscenely powerful monsters).

Y'know what, I agree. Enough of this Save or Die/Suck nonsense - I want spells to be just Die/Suck.

Players these days are coddled. They think they're ENTITLED to walk 10 feet and survive.

I miss the days of Tomb of Horrors, where players couldn't whine about "saves" in order to not die - they just died.

They died because a they fell into a Spiked Pit Trap and it killed them. They died because a Brown-Mold-Green-Slime Tapestry fell on them. They died because Acererak sucked out their soul. No Reflex, no Fort, no Will. Just dead. Because the DM wanted them to be.

(By the way, I'm only half-joking - I really DO think people need to stop thinking that they're entitled to always be the heroes who are beautiful & unique snowflakes who save the day and don't have bad things happen to them just because they're PCs; I adhere to the old-school philosophy that the DM is completely against the party but has to be fair about it, like an angry god, and the party has to EARN their victories and their adventures will be littered with the bodies of fallen comrades if they're not careful or unlucky - Saving Throws are a tool so that DMs can fairly try and destroy the party, and Will saves generally sucking for martials are just part of that whole deal).


Mark Seifter wrote:
Now, though I've tried to be fair in pointing out the badness that could happen on a failed Will save, I will say that the Unchained monk is still probably still less likely to get hit by an enchantment than anything but a paladin or Wisdom-based caster at many levels, due to combining Still Mind with Wisdom as an important stat. Unchained Monk wants Wisdom as a strong second stat for sure (after either Strength or Dex depending on what he uses to hit), which combined with Still Mind buys you a lot of benefit vs. enchantment in particular. At 4, for instance, if the Unchained monk has 16 Wisdom and a witch or wizard has 10 (fairly standard for those classes in point buy characters I've seen), then, cloak being equal, the monk is ahead of those casters by 2 for enchantments, and those casters don't surpass until level 14, and even then only assuming the monk doesn't boost Wisdom (and the monk ties again at 15 for one level). If the monk grabs a +6 Wis headband and the witch or wizard has a +2 Wis ioun stone to go with their +6 Int headband or something like that, the monk stays ahead indefinitely.

Welcome to the wonderful world of curses, or 'enchantment and mind affecting protections eh? How about some necromancy then'


Malwing wrote:
Davor wrote:

I actually think save-or-suck/lose/die spells shouldn't even exist, save for the absolute rarest of circumstances (obscenely powerful monsters). While enchantment spells can make for some interesting roleplay scenarios (I actually fully played my character that got charmed by a div), the fact is that anything that puts players out of the game does nothing but waste time.

Sure, spells like Hold Person are nice when the players use them, but when you take one guy out of a fight, that's quite a long time, possibly even hours depending on the encounter, where they literally showed up for no reason, and if you want to establish a reasonable world where the NPCs and PCs are on a fairly even playing field, you need to remove these kinds of spells as a whole from the table.

But then, I'm a bit of an extremist.

I generally assume that the NPCs and PCs aren't on equal footing. Perhaps some BBEG will be very threatening but for the most part I put out CR<APL encounters in greater numbers if I have any say over it. Mostly because PCs are expected to fight multiple times per day; If there are enemies of comparable levels then the players are constantly subjected to the same kind of shenanigans that they dish out and while players love their power and broken abilities they do not always like it when those powers are turned against them in equal footing particularly when those powers take away any kind of control.

Don't use vampires much, I take it? I've played in games where one vamp managed to use party members to stalk and kill nearly all of the other players before we could figure our what was going on and take down (with nonlethal damage) our friend.

MA

Scarab Sages

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chbgraphicarts wrote:
Davor wrote:
I actually think save-or-suck/lose/die spells shouldn't even exist, save for the absolute rarest of circumstances (obscenely powerful monsters).

Y'know what, I agree. Enough of this Save or Die/Suck nonsense - I want spells to be just Die/Suck.

Players these days are coddled. They think they're ENTITLED to walk 10 feet and survive.

I miss the days of Tomb of Horrors, where players couldn't whine about "saves" in order to not die - they just died.

They died because a they fell into a Spiked Pit Trap and it killed them. They died because a Brown-Mold-Green-Slime Tapestry fell on them. They died because Acererak sucked out their soul. No Reflex, no Fort, no Will. Just dead. Because the DM wanted them to be.

(By the way, I'm only half-joking - I really DO think people need to stop thinking that they're entitled to always be the heroes who are beautiful & unique snowflakes who save the day and don't have bad things happen to them just because they're PCs; I adhere to the old-school philosophy that the DM is completely against the party but has to be fair about it, like an angry god, and the party has to EARN their victories and their adventures will be littered with the bodies of fallen comrades if they're not careful or unlucky - Saving Throws are a tool so that DMs can fairly try and destroy the party, and Will saves generally sucking for martials are just part of that whole deal).

See, I'm not talking about it from a story perspective. I'm talking about it from a game perspective.

From a gaming perspective, it makes NO sense to make a game where you can show up for a several hour session and be robbed of it because... reasons. I'd be TICKED if I got to my Pathfinder game and had my character get paralyzed in one of our combat sessions. It's really far, and combat has gotten so big that it takes our group about an hour to finish one (for more reasons than one). For me to show up and waste an hour - 2 hours because I failed a Will save? C'mon. I'd RATHER my character was instantly killed. Then at least I could spend that time rolling up a new one instead of stacking dice and sitting on my hands.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
lemeres wrote:
Archetypes that gave options that are not available to the unchained monk.

Why doesn't the unchained monk qualify for archetypes?

Looks to me like the master of many styles archetype would work just fine.


Good things: bumping up to a full BAB/d10 HD class is long-overdue and more than an acceptable trade-off for lower Will saves. Style Strikes are fantastic and I love them. And THANK GOD that they are now proficient in all monk weapons, I was waiting forever for that to be the case. Other bits I liked were a removal of the attack penalty for flurrying and Tongue of the Sun and Moon getting moved to an earlier level, so it can actually have a chance to shine throughout more of a campaign. Lastly, the wild variety of options with ki powers is gonna be a lot of fun (monks with spell turning, hah).

Odd things: when will Paizo just rewrite Perfect Self completely? Being an outsider (I'm still wondering why no-one there will just say it's a native outsider rather than tossing all the extra wording in there) in this case is only relevant for a miniscule number of spells and effects. Also, putting the Will saving throw reroll ability and the ki regeneration ability on the capstone at levels 19 and 20 means the overwhelming majority of monks AND time spent on monks are never going to see these abilities get used. Which sucks, because they're neat. I'm just wondering if somehow they couldn't have been working in earlier, especially since monks are so reliant on their ki pool. Lastly, the style strikes seem very insistent that each specific attack ONLY be delivered with a certain part of the body. That I just don't get, since the monk can kick someone in 99% of all circumstances, ditto with punches, etc. Seems like it has no real importance to the game other than dictating the flavor the player is allowed to use with it to an extent.

Bad things: why the hate for Quivering Palm? Not only did the ki cost double, it's now a standard action when before it just happened on an attack. That's needlessly punitive, considering the unchained monk gains nothing to help the class pull this ability off more easily. Also, monks losing their movement (now called Sudden Speed) and defense (now called Furious Defense) boost from ki pool is not a fair trade for getting it one level earlier, especially since the class feature is otherwise unchanged. I understand that balancing needs to be done, but you've stripped ki pool down to nothing and made it much worse than before. They still need that one stupid point left in it to punch through DR...why? I thought we were "unchaining" the monk, not leaving it shackled to that needless bit of restrictive book-keeping. It seems this new take on the monk is intent on LESSENING the power of the basic, defining element of their mystical capabilities that sets them apart from their mundane brawler cousins, a move that conceptually just confuses the hell out of me.

Verdict: Overall, I really like this new monk. It seems like the mystical sibling to the brawler, not its superior but its equal and a fun class to play with lots of options. The needless axe taken to ki pool is a bit aggravating but it's something I can live with. While it'll take some tweaking to make it work with existing material, this is overall a well done job in updating the monk to the level of capability that APG+ classes have had for a while now.


Ravingdork wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Archetypes that gave options that are not available to the unchained monk.

Why doesn't the unchained monk qualify for archetypes?

Looks to me like the master of many styles archetype would work just fine.

Master of Many Styles is pretty much the exception to the rule. All archetypes that modified any prior class features that are now ki powers do not technically work with the unchained monk. That just means you have to work out a reasonable compromise with your GM, though.


master arminas wrote:
Malwing wrote:
Davor wrote:

I actually think save-or-suck/lose/die spells shouldn't even exist, save for the absolute rarest of circumstances (obscenely powerful monsters). While enchantment spells can make for some interesting roleplay scenarios (I actually fully played my character that got charmed by a div), the fact is that anything that puts players out of the game does nothing but waste time.

Sure, spells like Hold Person are nice when the players use them, but when you take one guy out of a fight, that's quite a long time, possibly even hours depending on the encounter, where they literally showed up for no reason, and if you want to establish a reasonable world where the NPCs and PCs are on a fairly even playing field, you need to remove these kinds of spells as a whole from the table.

But then, I'm a bit of an extremist.

I generally assume that the NPCs and PCs aren't on equal footing. Perhaps some BBEG will be very threatening but for the most part I put out CR<APL encounters in greater numbers if I have any say over it. Mostly because PCs are expected to fight multiple times per day; If there are enemies of comparable levels then the players are constantly subjected to the same kind of shenanigans that they dish out and while players love their power and broken abilities they do not always like it when those powers are turned against them in equal footing particularly when those powers take away any kind of control.

Don't use vampires much, I take it? I've played in games where one vamp managed to use party members to stalk and kill nearly all of the other players before we could figure our what was going on and take down (with nonlethal damage) our friend.

MA

No. I keep vampires in BBEG territory or at least sub-boss, because they're vampires. To use them otherwise would diminish them.

I do want to bring up Mark's other point again(Saves in general is a system wide conversation not an unchained monk conversation.), the Unchained Monk has a bad will save but it's far from defenseless when it comes to will saves and the fear of it does prove that it's dangerous enough now to be feared. Before monk was my go-to mage-slayer being capable of getting in close and quickly disabling casters.

I am sore about the lack of secondary AC, unless the complaints are ignoring some kind of ki AC ability that nobody is talking about. Its no sweat off my nose (using third party options that I allow at the same time I can get a monk to 36 touch AC before magic items.) but I think one of the biggest problems with the monk is the dependance on Dex AND Wis for AC rather than being able to rely on Wis and some kind of kung-fu guard or deflection kata.

Designer

Malwing wrote:
I am sore about the lack of secondary AC, unless the complaints are ignoring some kind of ki AC ability that nobody is talking about. Its no sweat off my nose (using third party options that I allow at the same time I can get a monk to 36 touch AC before magic items.) but I think one of the biggest problems with the monk is the dependance on Dex AND Wis for AC rather than being able to rely on Wis and some kind of kung-fu guard or deflection kata.

Furious defense (+4 AC for one ki thing), while it does require you to pick it as a ki power, is super better than before since it's an immediate action, so you can use it only when you need it, which is a great conserver on ki as well as immediate/swifts. That said, monks I've seen, especially at high levels, have tended to have extremely high ACs overall even before Unchained.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Malwing wrote:
I am sore about the lack of secondary AC, unless the complaints are ignoring some kind of ki AC ability that nobody is talking about. Its no sweat off my nose (using third party options that I allow at the same time I can get a monk to 36 touch AC before magic items.) but I think one of the biggest problems with the monk is the dependance on Dex AND Wis for AC rather than being able to rely on Wis and some kind of kung-fu guard or deflection kata.
Furious defense (+4 AC for one ki thing), while it does require you to pick it as a ki power, is super better than before since it's an immediate action, so you can use it only when you need it, which is a great conserver on ki as well as immediate/swifts. That said, monks I've seen, especially at high levels, have tended to have extremely high ACs overall even before Unchained.

Oh yeah, Mark, that reminds me...why does Furious Defense have a level SEVEN prereq when everything else on the list is an even level? Well, everything but Formless Mastery, but those two are kinda joined at the hip anyways. Did I miss an 'Extra Ki Power' feat in my PDF copy or what?

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