I love the Brawler; I think it's a really fun class, but I don't understand how to explain things 'in game', like their ability to bypass damage reduction, as if their fists were magic. I get it mechanically, but just not the 'how'.
The Monk can pull things like this off, because they're mystics. They harness Ki energy. But the Brawler's fists, are mundane, meet and bone.
The best I can do to make sense of it, is to look at it, as if during their mastery of general ass-kicking, they tap into something primal enough, it's related to Ki.
I dunno- anyone else scratch their head over this?
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Charles Atlas Superpowers, man. If you train hard enough, you can punch ghosts and golems and all kinds of things.
Ex =/= Normal.
Remember, the Barbarian has an Ex ability that lets him get so mad his skin hardens to the point that getting stabbed by a pitchfork doesn't even break the skin, and he becomes fire retardant.
Charles Atlas Superpowers, man. If you train hard enough, you can punch ghosts and golems and all kinds of things.
Or maybe they get a "Jack LaLanne's Power Juicer" in their starting equipment. Seriously, Lalanne looked better at 96, than most of us do at 20.
Ex =/= Normal.
Remember, the Barbarian has an Ex ability that lets him get so mad he sprouts wings and flies, and hardens his skin to the point that getting stabbed by a pitchfork doesn't even break the kin.
Good point. But there, they at least explain the wonder of a Barbarian's piss and vinegar. With the Brawler, the book just says he can do it.
Honestly, it's because during the playtest we collectively pestered SKR about changing it to an EX ability because the Brawler was supposed to be completely non-magical (it was originally Su). So nobody added a fluff explanation, just the change.
Good point. But there, they at least explain the wonder of a Barbarian's piss and vinegar. With the Brawler, the book just says he can do it.Ex =/= Normal.
Remember, the Barbarian has an Ex ability that lets him get so mad he sprouts wings and flies, and hardens his skin to the point that getting stabbed by a pitchfork doesn't even break the kin.
I'd say she's JUST THAT GOOD at punching things that need to be punched. Everyone loves good old-fashioned fisticuffs. Or maybe just say it's the fighting spirit that drives someone to try smashing through plate armour using your bare fist. Or just that after punching so many things, your fist is just THAT HARD.
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I'd say that this is one of the things that's intentionally left vague so that the individual players and GMs can decide it for themselves. Sort of like how every sorcerer has their own personal take on Magic Missiles.
She could be blessed by Gorum or Kurgess; she could be mastering ki without fully realizing it; "Spell Slots" could be a theoretical function of the soul, which your Brawler is unknowingly using. Not for formal spells, but for a constant extraordinary effect.
Or you could just have someone who believes if she practices enough, she can wrestle a fire elemental and win. In such a magical setting, it's perfectly possible!
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I'd say that this is one of the things that's intentionally left vague so that the individual players and GMs can decide it for themselves. Sort of like how every sorcerer has their own personal take on Magic Missiles.
I'm almost afraid to ask the guy playing a Brawler in my game, anymore insight to how he plays it. As it stands, he's already described how the character's pupils dilate, and gets an erection every time he uses "Brawler's Strike".
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I'm almost afraid to ask the guy playing a Brawler in my game, anymore insight to how he plays it. As it stands, he's already described how the character's pupils dilate, and gets an erection every time he uses "Brawler's Strike".
Well, then, some mysteries are better left untouched.
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Punch goes in, foe goes out.
Can't explain that.
Honestly, it's because during the playtest we collectively pestered SKR about changing it to an EX ability because the Brawler was supposed to be completely non-magical (it was originally Su). So nobody added a fluff explanation, just the change.
I must be in the minority then, that thinks "Su" would have been a better choice.
Why can't it just be the "I am just that good" power?
I mean, after a certain level, all PCs, in all classes, are pretty much superhuman.
I agree, but even a fantasy setting, has at least some general sense of how things work. The (Ex) vs. (Sp), is a really simple way of keeping the sensibilities of the game intact.
For example, a Brawler is extraordinarily good at punching ghosts.
My take has always been that, (Ex), are extraordinary abilities, beyond what the vast majority of people can do, but are still firmly rooted in the non-magical world- Whereas, (Su), is just that, supernatural- something that can interact in the magical (such as the damage reduction of fey creatures).
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My spell sundering 'shatter spell' dwarf only feat dwarf brawler used to collect old potion bottles - break them up and dip his wrapped fists in the broken glass kick-boxer stylez !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cWZjKCEkXA
It was the residual magic that did it !!! and over years and soaking his fists in the blood of innately magical critters some of it stuck ..
That is pretty awesome!
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Before you can answer that question you have to ask: what is DR?
It's not being difficult to hit with a weapon. That's AC. My DR doesn't change if I am unclad, in leather, or wearing full plate with a tower shield. Without magic, no amount of armor in the universe gives me DR.
It's ALSO not just being a tough substance. That's hardness. Hardness and DR work differently - hardness protects against fire, DR doesn't.
So a lump of steel has hardness. A plate of steel I strap to my chest has nothing. But a barbarian has hardness.
???
Once you have a working definition of DR, THEN you have to ask why magic attacks penetrate some versions of it. Magic attacks aren't any better at hitting AC. They aren't any better at penetrating hardness. I can have a +1 enhancement bonus for being masterwork, or one for being magic - it makes no difference when I attack the lump of steel or the plate of steel, but then I attack a dragon, and the magic weapon is suddenly better? Why?
All we know about DR from the game is "Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable."
So, some creatures can instantly heal a little of a wound, but not a magic wound? Okay, then we say a brawler knows what kinds of injuries don't instantly heal, even on a magic monster. It becomes like a micro-critical-hit, a form of damage that isn't harder to survive, but is harder to flash-heal. Perhaps the brawler knows to go for joints, or strike nerve points, or bone bruises won't kill you any faster but even creatures that heal a bit of a stab are vulnerable to them.
Other times, DR is the ability to ignore something as if you were invulnerable. You *aren't* invulnerable, you just act like it, unless a magic weapon strikes you. Perhaps a dragon's scale cannot be chipped or dented, but its hide and flesh can be. Magic weapons can cut dragonhide... but a brawler knows to strike the scales edge-on, driving the scales themselves up into the dragon's flesh.
After all if the DR itself isn't a magic effect, why should only magic effects penetrate it? Yes, we know that magic weapons DO penetrate the nonmagical "DR/magic," but that doesn't suggest that ONLY magic can do so. Why does ignoring a few points of DR need more of an explanation than how the DR itself works?
In effect, brawlers have a special form of Power Attack or Weapon Specialization that takes no penalty and only does as much extra damage as a foe's DR. We're not talking about punching an ethereal creature or flying by force of will. We are talking about a nonmagical defense that magic weapons always go through, and apparently fists go through if you know exactly how to do it.
Or you could just soak your fists in the average alchemists urine ..
There is that.
Honestly, it's because during the playtest we collectively pestered SKR about changing it to an EX ability because the Brawler was supposed to be completely non-magical (it was originally Su). So nobody added a fluff explanation, just the change.I must be in the minority then, that thinks "Su" would have been a better choice.
In a class with no other Supernatural or magical abilities, that would have been very odd.
Extraordinary goes above and beyond what our reality can make happen. Something magical does so by twisting reality. Realistic does not apply to Extraordinary as it is by it's very purpose meant to go beyond that.
The Brawler just strikes in such a way that it bypasses DR. It was learned through intensive training just like the Fighter's Penetrating Strike.
Honestly, it's because during the playtest we collectively pestered SKR about changing it to an EX ability because the Brawler was supposed to be completely non-magical (it was originally Su). So nobody added a fluff explanation, just the change.I must be in the minority then, that thinks "Su" would have been a better choice.In a class with no other Supernatural or magical abilities, that would have been very odd.
Extraordinary goes above and beyond what our reality can make happen. Something magical does so by twisting reality. Realistic does not apply to Extraordinary as it is by it's very purpose meant to go beyond that.
The Brawler just strikes in such a way that it bypasses DR. It was learned through intensive training just like the Fighter's Penetrating Strike.
I've always understood that (Ex) can do some very powerful things, but I could be underestimating the 'scope' what those abilities can do.
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If you ate four dozen raw eggs a day, you too would be able to punch through DR/magic.
Before you can answer that question you have to ask: what is DR?
It's not being difficult to hit with a weapon. That's AC. My DR doesn't change if I am unclad, in leather, or wearing full plate with a tower shield. Without magic, no amount of armor in the universe gives me DR.
Not to be "That guy" but... Adamantine armor can grant DR 3/- without being magical.
A high level fighter can get DR 5/- by throwing on a silk shirt. That isn't magical either (I'm referring to level 19 fighter, silken ceremonial armor, or any armor really).
I love the Brawler; I think it's a really fun class, but I don't understand how to explain things 'in game', like their ability to bypass damage reduction, as if their fists were magic. I get it mechanically, but just not the 'how'.
The Monk can pull things like this off, because they're mystics. They harness Ki energy. But the Brawler's fists, are mundane, meet and bone.
The best I can do to make sense of it, is to look at it, as if during their mastery of general ass-kicking, they tap into something primal enough, it's related to Ki.
I dunno- anyone else scratch their head over this?
Physics. Something that breaks the sound barrier will punch a hole through a lot of things.
You could explain to us Magic though, because Im not getting it. (Without the tongue in cheek, I would say we are all too used to the concept of Magic and therefore it makes sense to us)
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Or you could just soak your fists in the average alchemists urine ..
Bottle it and sell it. High for DAYS guaranteed.
Ultimately, the Brawler having his 'magic knuckles' as (Ex) doesn't HAVE to make sense... it was a design decision.
Extraordinary abilities are exactly that: Extra... ordinary. Outside of what is normal.
Martials have been pooped on for the entire history of the game, someone is finally trying to balance it out a bit.
If his knuckles had been (Su) then an antimagic field could shut it down.
Ingame, I would simply describe it as a semi-mystical culmination of martial training... not only have his fists been hardened, but he knows SO much about how to punch/target that he can affect things others cannot... It isn't general knowledge like the Knowledge skills, just specifically punch-related physics (punch physics, I like that)-very focused skill that allows him to achieve things otherwise not possible.
Martials have been pooped on for the entire history of the game, someone is finally trying to balance it out a bit.
I don't think it's really an issue of needing to scoop poop. In general, for as long as I remember, martials own the show at lower levels, and spellcasters dominate at high levels. Maybe not as much now as in earlier additions.
At any rate, the Brawler is a welcome addition. Even if their body parts blur the line between extraordinary and supernatural, in ways that are sorta confusing.
Martials have been pooped on for the entire history of the game, someone is finally trying to balance it out a bit.I don't think it's really an issue of needing to scoop poop. In general, for as long as I remember, martials own the show at lower levels, and spellcasters dominate at high levels. Maybe not as much now as in earlier additions.
At any rate, the Brawler is a welcome addition. Even if their body parts blur the line between extraordinary and supernatural, in ways that are sorta confusing.
One wizard can neutralize up to four fighters with a single Sleep spell, at a range, fighters can't kill four mages in a single attack...
the disparity exists at all levels, it just gets worse over time.
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"Like it or not this is a world built on rules. Some of those rules can be bent, others broken.
You mean, I can dodge bullets?
I'm saying, when you're ready, you won't HAVE to."
I guess what I'm saying is that the Brawler, although non-magical, is more than just mortal. By virtue of extreme training he taps a level of skill that transcends planes. Couple this with body hardening exercises, superhuman athleticism and harnessing parts of the brain and body that lay dormant for ALL other creatures and the Brawler isn't playing by the same rules any more.
THIS is what Irori was striving for. The monks may have mastered their own Ki, but they are still dependent on some force, some power to fuel their incredible abilities. The Brawler does all of this through discipline, training and a willingness to strive for what others will not.
"Like it or not this is a world built on rules. Some of those rules can be bent, others broken.
You mean, I can dodge bullets?
I'm saying, when you're ready, you won't HAVE to."
I guess what I'm saying is that the Brawler, although non-magical, is more than just mortal. By virtue of extreme training he taps a level of skill that transcends planes. Couple this with body hardening exercises, superhuman athleticism and harnessing parts of the brain and body that lay dormant for ALL other creatures and the Brawler isn't playing by the same rules any more.
THIS is what Irori was striving for. The monks may have mastered their own Ki, but they are still dependent on some force, some power to fuel their incredible abilities. The Brawler does all of this through discipline, training and a willingness to strive for what others will not.
I love everything about this post. It is now officially being added as a page in my ACG, Brawler flavor text.
Martials have been pooped on for the entire history of the game, someone is finally trying to balance it out a bit.I don't think it's really an issue of needing to scoop poop. In general, for as long as I remember, martials own the show at lower levels, and spellcasters dominate at high levels. Maybe not as much now as in earlier additions.
At any rate, the Brawler is a welcome addition. Even if their body parts blur the line between extraordinary and supernatural, in ways that are sorta confusing.
One wizard can neutralize up to four fighters with a single Sleep spell, at a range, fighters can't kill four mages in a single attack...
the disparity exists at all levels, it just gets worse over time.
True, but low-level Wizards are in a very precarious position. If that sleep spell fails to do what the Wizard need it's to, she takes as huge step towards being very dead.
Because every brawler is a descendant of Chuck Norris
One of my faves: "Chuck Norris finished the Neverending Story"
Brawlers don't meditate and yammer about ki and finding enlightenment like monks, but clearly like them (and pretty much every class) they have found some way to harness something, either internal or external, that lets them go beyond normal limits.
In the case of Brawlers, I think of it as a less focused and controlled form of ki. It gives them their magic punch, and also lets them intuitively grasp new combat techniques. They aren't really at one with the universe, but they are at one with can o'whup ass.
The brawler's fists work in mysterious ways, and I am content with the mystery.
The Brawler (like Chuck Norris) channels the power of MANLINESS into their fists. MANLINESS is power. MANLINESS is greater than magic. To be honest, when the brawler hits something, you should just be grateful that your players are still alive to witness the aftermath. ;)
Because every brawler is a descendant of Chuck NorrisOne of my faves: "Chuck Norris finished the Neverending Story"
If it was Chuck Norris, there would be another fist under that beard.
As much as I like a good Chuck Norris joke, why does no one ever mention good old Bruce Lee? Chuck is a great martial artist, Bruce is one of the best. :)
If you don't think of the Brawler as a class but a sub class of Monk as set out as an option for Monk in Core rules. It basically states Brawlers are monks training exercises all the rest they just did it without an applied set of rigid beliefs by an order. Instead they self imposed them. Taking that line should explain away the abilities on a roleplay level. If not the actual mechanics
I'm in serious danger of becoming the biggest buzzkill that set word on the forums... But, the love of Chuck Norris is a bigger mystery to me than the Brawler's knuckles. Underneath Norris' carefully cultivated public persona, the guy seem like a complete homophobic tool.
Now Van Damme, on the other hand- could crush a man's skull with his butt-cheeks...
(As a straight man, I'm rather proud, that I just managed to condemn homophobia, and complement a man's butt in one post, without consciously trying to do so...) :)
He punches you so hard your parents say 'ow' the day before you were born.