| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This. I always figured that much of the adamantine cost would be the difficulty of working with it. There's no way I'd give them anywhere near the 300gp/lb.Items made of adamantine costs somewhere around 300gp per pound of the finished item.
There is no price at all, as far as I am aware, listed for unworked adamantine or adamantine that will need to be reworked.
Nope. Adamantine is a trade good. It is 300gp per pound -- unworked.
Source: Entertainment and Trade Goods.
In my game the structure and hardness of adamantine makes so it cannot be reforged. It is a alloy and can only be forged once. That allows me to get around some of that nonsense:)
|
Agreed. If the door is adamantine you'd think they'll have given a thought or two as to how the walls are built. Adamantine means they don't want the door to be the chink in the armor...
Lol - that reminds me of the first or second Burn Notice episode. A drug dealer Michael was dealing with had a high quality security door he was hiding behind. Michael went throught the drywall.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, why is it that Pathfinder allows weapons (and even fists) to be so spectacular at penetrating objects with such impunity. I mean, seriously...if the sword is doing damage to that big metal door, the big metal door should be doing damage right back.
For the same reason that you don't have to sharpen your sword between adventures or have slightly reduced damage. It's boring to keep track of.
Besides - past the first couple levels it can be handwaived because... magic weapon.
What can you make a wall from that would stop a determined adventurer party, aside from more adamantine?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What can you make a wall from that would stop a determined adventurer party, aside from more adamantine?
Permanancy'd walls of force?
Hey, we are building doors out of stuff that costs more than pure gold. We might as well really fork out.
|
|
In my game the structure and hardness of adamantine makes so it cannot be reforged. It is a alloy and can only be forged once. That allows me to get around some of that nonsense:)
I think the canon Golarion world works in a similar way as well: you need special forges (huge, super hot forges, dwarven made I think, just a handful around the world... not sure if this is official but I seem to have read something like that somewhere)
I'm playing shackles right now and I think we have a similar challenge with canons (they exist but can only be forged in Alkenstar so getting new ones for our ship is not just a matter of money but availability... again, this may be GM ruling rather than the official word, but I'm a player in this campaign so this is the info that is available to me right now...)
|
|
Addendum: if you think about it, a forge will melt if you heat it beyond it's max temperature... so to melt adamantine, you need something that can handle that thermally, and steel / regular rock / brick components will fail. The details as to the composition and cost of an adamantine forge is probably best left to the abstraction of its higher cost, but as a GM I'd do a bit of lore research as to where in Golarion this might be available... otherwise my answer would be "no" to the player looking for this at all the regular places...
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
True story: I nearly broke the economy of the game when I ran the original Temple of Elemental Evil in 3E. The adventure describes the doors to the Temple as being made of bronzewood, and they immediately saw dollar signs. I ran some basic numbers based on the size of the doors and how much they would be worth...and it came to roughly a quarter million gold pieces. I ended up having the priests of Obad-Hai give them elemental bane weapons for free in exchange.
Short version: if you do this, have a reason why that PCs can't just loot the doors, sell them, and retire.
|
|
This makes me think that a caster could just walk up to the adamantine doors, and unless they were a magical item, just cast fabricate on the doors to create themselves some weapons or simple to make items as well as remove the doors as an obstacle. They can also potentially do that to walls, floors, ceilings, and many other potential obstacles. Aside from GM fiat, does anyone see anything in the rules/mechanics that would prevent this? Or, is this just another capability that comes online once level 5 spells become available and the types of obstacles that cease to be for parties with a member able to cast these spells?
From PRD:
Magically Treated Walls: These walls are stronger than average, with a greater hardness, more hit points, and a higher break DC. Magic can usually double the hardness and hit points of a wall and add up to 20 to the break DC. A magically treated wall also gains a saving throw against spells that could affect it, with the save bonus equaling 2 + 1/2 the caster level of the magic reinforcing the wall. Creating a magic wall requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat and the expenditure of 1,500 gp for each 10-foot-by-10-foot wall section.
Smart stronghold defense should include magically treated walls, doors, windows, etc. It's expensive, but if you're gonna put a giant billion gold piece adamantine portal in your basement, that magical reinforcement should be the bare minimum...
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This makes me think that a caster could just walk up to the adamantine doors, and unless they were a magical item, just cast fabricate on the doors to create themselves some weapons or simple to make items as well as remove the doors as an obstacle. They can also potentially do that to walls, floors, ceilings, and many other potential obstacles. Aside from GM fiat, does anyone see anything in the rules/mechanics that would prevent this? Or, is this just another capability that comes online once level 5 spells become available and the types of obstacles that cease to be for parties with a member able to cast these spells?From PRD:
Magically Treated Walls: These walls are stronger than average, with a greater hardness, more hit points, and a higher break DC. Magic can usually double the hardness and hit points of a wall and add up to 20 to the break DC. A magically treated wall also gains a saving throw against spells that could affect it, with the save bonus equaling 2 + 1/2 the caster level of the magic reinforcing the wall. Creating a magic wall requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat and the expenditure of 1,500 gp for each 10-foot-by-10-foot wall section.
Smart stronghold defense should include magically treated walls, doors, windows, etc. It's expensive, but if you're gonna put a giant billion gold piece adamantine portal in your basement, that magical reinforcement should be the bare minimum...
It kind of makes you wonder why they didn't forgo the wall reinforcement and just spend those millions of gp on an army of constructs and simulacrums.
In my game the structure and hardness of adamantine makes so it cannot be reforged. It is a alloy and can only be forged once. That allows me to get around some of that nonsense:)Did you get that from adamantium in X-Men 2? ;)
I ditent like the first movie so i havent seen the rest. But i Think there is somthing similar in the comic and i used to read that.
|
|
I ditent like the first movie so i havent seen the rest. But i Think there is somthing similar in the comic and i used to read that.In my game the structure and hardness of adamantine makes so it cannot be reforged. It is a alloy and can only be forged once. That allows me to get around some of that nonsense:)Did you get that from adamantium in X-Men 2? ;)
Really? I think you're about the first person I've heard who disliked it. (Some weren't huge fans.) The 2nd is probably the best of the lot - though most are good in my opinion. (The 1st Wolverine one is the weakest - but still enjoyable.)
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm looking at the fabricate spell more closely, and I'm wondering actually what limits are placed on what can be targeted with the spell. The spell appears to target a mass of material equal to 10 cu ft/level (or 1 cu ft/level if a mineral, which I'm not sure if uses the real-world definition of mineral or uses an undefined game version), but doesn't say that the mass of material cannot be part of another object already, except that it cannot be a creature or magic item. This makes me think that a caster could just walk up to the adamantine doors, and unless they were a magical item, just cast fabricate on the doors to create themselves some weapons or simple to make items as well as remove the doors as an obstacle. They can also potentially do that to walls, floors, ceilings, and many other potential obstacles. Aside from GM fiat, does anyone see anything in the rules/mechanics that would prevent this? Or, is this just another capability that comes online once level 5 spells become available and the types of obstacles that cease to be for parties with a member able to cast these spells?
There are spells to get you through about any issue, it's just about having access to them and being able to spend the resources on them. If you are looking at getting past a locked door of whatever material, it's typically most cost effective to just pick the lock.
Honestly though, you might want to think about what you're protecting with adamantine doors, as they may be more valuable than whatever they are guarding. I could see where if you were a really wealthy person you could convert your savings into adamantine doors and have a few trinkets behind the door. Most parties will ignore the doors for the treasure, especially if it's a sneak-in/sneak-out operation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This makes me want to see an adventure where the given motive for the PCs to enter the dungeon is to loot the furnishings.
I once ran a game on OpenRPG for about 13 players (phew!). I was a guest GM at the time and I was supposed to run a big battle with a lich vs the 13 11th level PCs. While the battle was most amusing (12/13 PCs were either defeated or fled), the treasure is where the real heartbreak was.
See, the lich had been communicating to the PCs via a magical intercom system in the tower (where upon command, voices could be transported from one floor of the tower to the next). In an attempt to just generally get the lich in a pissy mood, the murderhobos (that's what this party was, no joke) decided to torch the lich's study and other fanciful decorations that she had amassed.
In other words, the burned thousands of gold pieces worth of art objects. Smashed the statuettes, torched the tapestries, burned the books, etc, etc, etc. Whoops... >_>
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with adamantine doors is that you need to invest a lot more in the walls to hang them in...A problem for PC's perhaps, but story characters always have the resources that were needed to have done whatever they have done.
Only if stories are stupid. Verisimilitude is a good thing.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As a GM, I would require the appropriate Craft check (as indicated by the spell) if the caster were trying to make any sort of weapon or armor.
"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
Since adamantium weapons and armor are automatically Masterwork, I believe that would trigger this clause of the spell description.
Alternatively, if someone is going to go through the trouble of making adamantium doors, they might as well enchant them with some sort of magical effect just to avoid stuff like this.
I cast a 1st level spell granting me +5 to craft checks. I have a +5 or better Int. I take 10.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I cast a 1st level spell granting me +5 to craft checks. I have a +5 or better Int. I take 10.As a GM, I would require the appropriate Craft check (as indicated by the spell) if the caster were trying to make any sort of weapon or armor.
"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
Since adamantium weapons and armor are automatically Masterwork, I believe that would trigger this clause of the spell description.
Alternatively, if someone is going to go through the trouble of making adamantium doors, they might as well enchant them with some sort of magical effect just to avoid stuff like this.
A GM could screw you there slightly by saying that you can't take 10 because you are concentrating on casting the spell.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This makes me want to see an adventure where the given motive for the PCs to enter the dungeon is to loot the furnishings.
The group could be ninja Feng-Shu who come in and rearrange the chairs in order to use a Bestow Curse on people.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I cast a 1st level spell granting me +5 to craft checks. I have a +5 or better Int. I take 10.As a GM, I would require the appropriate Craft check (as indicated by the spell) if the caster were trying to make any sort of weapon or armor.
"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
Since adamantium weapons and armor are automatically Masterwork, I believe that would trigger this clause of the spell description.
Alternatively, if someone is going to go through the trouble of making adamantium doors, they might as well enchant them with some sort of magical effect just to avoid stuff like this.
A GM could screw you there slightly by saying that you can't take 10 because you are concentrating on casting the spell.
Except that you're not concentrating. Detect Magic has a duration of concentration, so that's why you might be distracted. Neither Crafter's Fortune, or Fabricate have a duration of concentration.
Except that you're not concentrating. Detect Magic has a duration of concentration, so that's why you might be distracted. Neither Crafter's Fortune, or Fabricate have a duration of concentration.I cast a 1st level spell granting me +5 to craft checks. I have a +5 or better Int. I take 10.As a GM, I would require the appropriate Craft check (as indicated by the spell) if the caster were trying to make any sort of weapon or armor.
"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship."
Since adamantium weapons and armor are automatically Masterwork, I believe that would trigger this clause of the spell description.
Alternatively, if someone is going to go through the trouble of making adamantium doors, they might as well enchant them with some sort of magical effect just to avoid stuff like this.
A GM could screw you there slightly by saying that you can't take 10 because you are concentrating on casting the spell.
You are concentrating on the spell as you cast it. Hence why you need to make concentration checks when you get stabbed.
It is mechanically different to a duration of "concentration", but you do concentrate (the common english term) when doing both.
From here
Concentration
The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end. See concentration.
Since the "can't take 10 while using detect magic" ruling is because you are distracted while you are concentrating to maintain the spell it would not be unreasonable to rule that you can't take 10 when casting the spell as well - it does seem silly that it is easier to focus on something else when casting the spell than when it keeping the spell going (even though they both can involve concentration checks at the same DC). This isn't strict RAW however - the rules aren't exactly clear on what constitutes a "distraction"(I wouldn't have thought that take 10 would have any issues when using detect magic but apparently it does).
Crafter's fortune wouldn't matter because once you cast it you can concentrate on crafting, but for fabricate you are concentrating on the spell as you make the check so it wouldn't be unreasonable to disallow take 10. This is despite the fact that the check is done as part of the spell - spellcraft checks are done as part of detect magic.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you read the description on adamantine, it's already so expensive that it would be silly not to have it made masterwork. But it also goes on to state that the additional costs of making it masterwork are are factored into the costs given. (I think this is mostly to keep new players from forgetting to get an expensive item Masterwork and end up wasting GP)
Therefore you could factor the costs back out. If you're worried about making the check, craft the non-masterwork version. Then cast Masterwork Transformation.
I've always treated Adamantine and Mithril like Titanium or Tungsten...
Basically impossible to reforge.
Doors that cost a half million to make will NOT sell for anything near that.
1/10 is a fair number.
In my group, they would likely take the door(s) and slap them on one of their own structures (as a diversion, probably wouldn't even lead anywhere, just into a trapped, dead-end hallway).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think you're grasping at straws Snowblind. Who cares anyway? I just cast the spell a few times until I roll 10+ on the d20. :|
Honestly I can't think of many reasons why anyone would make a door out of adamantine anyway, especially since without some really serious magical twinkage it's still going to be trivially easy to get through for any competent party of mid-level or higher adventurers. Especially if the everything around the doors (ceiling, floors, walls, etc) aren't also adamantine (but still trivially easy to bypass with some simple sorcery).
About the only "dungeons" I can rationalize being made out of lots of adamantine are the space stations in my campaign. Most adamantine equipment is, humorously enough, made from salvaged plates of adamantine that form these "dungeons".
I think you're grasping at straws Snowblind. Who cares anyway? I just cast the spell a few times until I roll 10+ on the d20. :|
Honestly I can't think of many reasons why anyone would make a door out of adamantine anyway, especially since without some really serious magical twinkage it's still going to be trivially easy to get through for any competent party of mid-level or higher adventurers. Especially if the everything around the doors (ceiling, floors, walls, etc) aren't also adamantine (but still trivially easy to bypass with some simple sorcery).
About the only "dungeons" I can rationalize being made out of lots of adamantine are the space stations in my campaign. Most adamantine equipment is, humorously enough, made from salvaged plates of adamantine that form these "dungeons".
I don't think that not being able to take 10 is a big deal.
I am just enlightening the message boards about rules that have sweeping widespread impact throughout the system and, as appropriate for rules of such significance, were vaguely implied to exist once by a single developer comment about one sentence in a single ability from one of several groups of abilities in an optional rules supplement. Naturally.
I was the one that pointed out that:
a) a level 1 fighter can literally just greatsword power-attack through the door given a lack of immediate danger and pressure - 18 str + 3 PA + whetstone + 12 max greatsword damage = max 22 damage (a greataxe is actually more optimal, but the sword will do).
b) the absurd amounts of money necessary to proof the door and walls from being trivially bypassed by someone utilizing the unacknowledged genius of AM BARBARIAN are far better devoted towards a literal army of constructs, simulacrums and/or bound servants.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ain't that the truth? A bunch of constructs would probably be more amusing as a blockade than "big metal door" to boot. :P
I would call it less "amusing" and more "Oh god it's shooting cannonballs out of it's armsaAAAAMYGODITSHOTOFFMYLEG".
It certainly helps keep most of those pesky murderhoboes away though.
Wait where did you hear that (about titanium and tungsten)?I've always treated Adamantine and Mithril like Titanium or Tungsten...
Basically impossible to reforge.
No idea, is it not true?
A little reading later... Tungsten you can recover/recycle, as well as Titanium. My knowledge was based off of wedding ring shopping, where they say they can't resize the rings (Tungsten is brittle, Titanium is too expensive to reforge for them)-HOWEVER, you can recycle either one.
The point I was trying to make, I guess, was that the sale price of a giant adamantine door is X, the _recycle_ value should not be the same.
Selling that door to someone means they will have to chop it up and reforge it... it isn't unreasonable to give a fractional price in these situations.
I mean, the melting point of Adamantine (if similar to Tungsten or Titanium) is hot enough to vaporize diamonds...
Who has that technology in Pathfinder? Chances are you are selling the doors back to whoever made them.
I was the one that pointed out that:
a) a level 1 fighter can literally just greatsword power-attack through the door given a lack of immediate danger and pressure - 18 str + 3 PA + whetstone + 12 max greatsword damage = max 22 damage (a greataxe is actually more optimal, but the sword will do).
b) the absurd amounts of money necessary to proof the door and walls from being trivially bypassed by someone utilizing the unacknowledged genius of AM BARBARIAN are far better devoted towards a literal army of constructs, simulacrums and/or bound servants.This right here is why I think I'm going to come up with a system in my home games where bashing something hard with your weapon, some amount of damage is done back.
Yes, it's more paperwork, but multi-tonne adamantium doors shouldn't be trivialized by a dude with a sword.
As long as you're ready to keep track of it for your own baddies when your players catch wise and start throwing s$** at your BBEGs weapons to break them.
Like sunder?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I thought I would do the math to convert Adamantine to a USD price.
1 lb Adamantine = 300 GP
(Coins are 50 to the lb in pathfinder)
300/50 = 6 lbs
(14.583 troy oz in a pound)
6*14.583= 87.5 oz t
Given a gold price of ~1,200 USD/oz t = 105,000 USD per lb of Adamantine
If the regular door weighs 1,630 lbs = 244,500,000 USD
If the large door weighs 3,260 lbs = 489,000,000 USD
I couldn't parse out from the OP whether or not the sets of doors were double doors or not. So for 6 sets of regular doors and 1 set of large doors:
If all are single door sets: 1,956,000,000 USD
If all are double door sets: 3,912,000,000 USD
That's a lot of money. Doing this I've realized the real question is how does someone open these doors, the large one weighs more than a 2015 Honda Civic. The small ones are a less daunting and only weighs about the same as a large bull.
I'm going to guess they keep them propped open most of the time.
|
|
Who has that technology in Pathfinder? Chances are you are selling the doors back to whoever made them.
Technology? It's probably more like magic, it's relatively cheap. Non-evil retired adventurers need something to do with all their spells.
Anyway Purple Dragon Knight says he found references stating Riddleport (Pop 13,300) and Torch (4,320) both have forges capable of handling Adamantine. Torch was built around a special flame. But Riddleport doesn't have any special reason to be handling Adamantine, so any large city or metropolis will probably have those capabilities.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you want doors that aggressive PCs can't hack through, just say they're constructed in such a way that piercing, slashing, and blunt damage types are all ineffective. Adamantine weapons won't help at all then, and the door will have to be dealt with in some manner other than being chopped down.
So in other words, when the PCs try to do something like this the GM's response should be to say "It doesn't work".
If you aren't going to follow the mechanics for how adamantine works, why use it at all. Make up some GM fiat driven "Force" doors with Hardness 50 and 10 layers (a disintegrate eats 1 layer) so the players at least know that you are blatantly pulling the "no you don't" card from the onset instead of making up stuff as you go along to shut down the PCs when they do something unexpected or unwanted.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also I'm not sure you can "create precious metals" with mending... ;)I think one could harvest about 150gp worth of adamantine before the adamantine saw fails. :):P
When does normal wear and tear become subject to Mending (for an infinitely useful saw)
Mend, not create.