my question is pretty simple do all priests preachers and other such people have acess to spells?
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No. In the game you must possess the actual class features to cast spells. A priest, preacher, and so on would be a profession, not a class. Similarly, not every "assassin" by profession has access to the assassin prestige class abilities.
edit: added "not"
Thanks DM_Blake. I did not realize I mistyped that.
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I think Wraith meant "NOT every assassin"...
To the OP, while it's true that anyone can preach without having access to spells, even common people can be "adepts" and they have access to spells without having an adventuring class like Cleric, etc. In a world where gods are real AND they prove it all the time by causing magic all over the world every day, being a priest/preacher/clergyman with no spells is a very serious handicap indeed.
I might go so far as to say that any "priest" who cannot channel his god's power has somehow pissed that god off. Or another way to look at it might is, if the "priest" is worthy of calling himself that (i.e. he's not a fraud, charlatan, thief, con-man, etc., but he's legitimately working to spread the word of some god in some way that this god approves of) then the god WILL grant him spells. In fact, the god MUST grant him spells or else everyone will think he's a weak god - when Joe Bob the farmer can get his wounds healed or get his child cured of illness or get his crops magically improved so they grow big and abundant, all just by donating at church X where the priest casts spells to do this stuff, there is NO WAY he would ever place any faith in church Y where the "priest" cannot, so the god MUST grant spells to all his faithful priests.
Which means that being a priest in good faith should AUTOMATICALLY qualify you as a level 1 spellcaster of whichever class is appropriate for the priest in question. Unless all his possible spellcasting ability scores are too low to cast spells, but then, the village idiot is not likely to take up the calling and actually convince anyone he's a real priest.
That's not to say it's impossible. Just implausible in the default setting (with a few exceptions).
I think Wraith meant "NOT every assassin"...
To the OP, while it's true that anyone can preach without having access to spells, even common people can be "experts" and they have access to spells without having an adventuring class like Cleric, etc. In a world where gods are real AND they prove it all the time by causing magic all over the world every day, being a priest/preacher/clergyman with no spells is a very serious handicap indeed.
I might go so far as to say that any "priest" who cannot channel his god's power has somehow pissed that god off. Or another way to look at it might is, if the "priest" is worthy of calling himself that (i.e. he's not a fraud, charlatan, thief, con-man, etc., but he's legitimately working to spread the word of some god in some way that this god approves of) then the god WILL grant him spells. In fact, the god MUST grant him spells or else everyone will think he's a weak god - when Joe Bob the farmer can get his wounds healed or get his child cured of illness or get his crops magically improved so they grow big and abundant, all just by donating at church X where the priest casts spells to do this stuff, there is NO WAY he would ever place any faith in church Y where the "priest" cannot, so the god MUST grant spells to all his faithful priests.
Which means that being a priest in good faith should AUTOMATICALLY qualify you as a level 1 spellcaster of whichever class is appropriate for the priest in question. Unless all his possible spellcasting ability scores are too low to cast spells, but then, the village idiot is not likely to take up the calling and actually convince anyone he's a real priest.
I think it depends upon what your setting assumptions are. Some settings have distant (or even nonexistent) gods that don't involve themselves directly in day to day business, or that you don't even need gods to cast divine spells (they can come from elsewhere like philosophies). And in other worlds, gods might not be affected by faith (their existence is independent).
In any case, a potential worker of divine miracles is not only a sign that X god exists, such a priest is also a direct Public Relations person in the name of his/her deity. As such, I don't think such abilities would be given out like candy to ANYBODY who would show up (if the realm is one where gods are active and vigilant.) Rather, I'd think a deity would be a bit more reserved and choose the qualified and the dedicated, those who represent the deity in the right ways, to endow with divine magic. There can be roles for others in the church to do others things besides perform the miraculous- clerics don't get that many skill points, so somebody else often has to perform more mundane duties. And because clerics have a minimum Wisdom to cast spells and require experience, it seems to me that their calling goes beyond merely pointing and clicking targets for their divine patron- they have to spend time training and learning just like anybody else does.
In fact, I'd say having too many priests could be bad for a faith because any of the following events might occur:
1)make the worshipers absolutely dependent such that they don't do things for themselves. ("Oh mighty god of the hearth and home, be with me as I sweep my floors.")
2)make divine magic taken for granted and the priests seen as disposable commodities
3)convince the populace that god is desperate or weak and will give power to any schmuck that comes along the road.
Actually, there are precedence for non-spellcasting priests, at least in Golarion according to Inner Sea Gods. Norgorber's and Desnas' priesthoods are mentioned to include rogues, Irori has an almost equal number of clerics and monks in his priesthood, Rovagug has barbarians, Torag has cavaliers and fighters, and I may even have missed some in my admittedly quick skimming.
Basically, priest is a profession, and there's actually little reason other than tradition to turn away a potential member of the clergy based on how he choose to approach the worship of his god. Whether or not a church's hierarchy actually accepts non-clerics like, say, a brawler or a wizard, into the priesthood will vary with the faith and probably even regionally with church politics.
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Don't forget about Razmir, who uses mutated Sorcerers as his clergy (I've got one of those - Razmiran Priest is a downright spiffy Archetype I will happily endorse).
I would assume in a world where the gods grant magic all actual Priest are spell casters while Lay Priest/Clergy can be other classes.
Not everyone has the talent/ability to have a PC class. I look at those who are clerics as those who are chosen by the gods because of their special talents*. I am sure there are a lot of wise faithful people in Fantasyland, but not all of them are called to be clerics(or any other divine class).
I also don't think every cleric is actually a priest(profession or practice) since many clerics are actually warriors for their deities, not just people who preach and spread the religion.
I was going to say, this thread seems to be turning into a sort of petition for a new NPC class for characters who don't have The Spark it takes to be true Clerics, but can still give a memorable sermon and cast a few spells for their piety.
Like an Adept?
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The day to day activities of a priest would likely still be counseling, spiritual advice, maintaining a temple, visiting/assisting members of his congregation, etc. Being able to cast divine spells is unlikely to help you save a marriage, comfort a mourning person, etc.
Especially for day to day stuff most of the Gods seem to have a very do it yourself attitude.
The day to day activities of a priest would likely still be counseling, spiritual advice, maintaining a temple, visiting/assisting members of his congregation, etc. Being able to cast divine spells is unlikely to help you save a marriage, comfort a mourning person, etc.
Especially for day to day stuff most of the Gods seem to have a very do it yourself attitude.
Heh. Just to point out how absurd Pathfinder's "There's a spell for that" paradigm is...
Helping to save a marriage can be as simple as a bit of truth and a bit of smooth talking.
Muorning people? tell them to calm down (works for the above, too, if things get heated!).
The day to day activities of a priest would likely still be counseling, spiritual advice, maintaining a temple, visiting/assisting members of his congregation, etc. Being able to cast divine spells is unlikely to help you save a marriage, comfort a mourning person, etc.
Especially for day to day stuff most of the Gods seem to have a very do it yourself attitude.
Heh. Just to point out how absurd Pathfinder's "There's a spell for that" paradigm is...
Helping to save a marriage can be as simple as a bit of truth and a bit of smooth talking.
Muorning people? tell them to calm down (works for the above, too, if things get heated!).
have fun when the spell ends in the few rounds and the calmed person is mad at you for trying to bippity boppity bo it away when they came for a talk.
I'm with DM_Blake on this.
Any preiest of deity worth his salt, is going to be capable of casting spells. Whether they be a cleric or an adept is not important.
I'm not saying it's impossible to claim to be a priest of a deity and no be granted divine power by them, but if I existed in a world where I knew deities granted divine power to their followers I'm not sure I'd bother listening to anyone that could show some divine power.
Now, I might be tricked. And that's exactly what the Razmiran Priest archetype does. I may not be able to successful identify the difference between arcane and divine magic. But if you aint got magic, aint no way I'm going to think your "god" cares enough about you. Hell, I might even think you've done something to break your deity's tennets and your being punished. In which case, why should I listen to you?
But do you need to be capable of casting spells to espose the glory and attempt to convert others to your faith? No, but in my opinion no one is going to listen to what you have to say unless you can manifest some divine power.
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I agree with LazarX on this one (something that doesn't happen too terribly often).
The spreading of religiousity to the fuzzy wuzzies does not require the ability to cast spells being granted to you by a god.
In the pathfinder setting plenty of deities are noted for having priests and clergy that are not spell casters, and the easy return to someone claiming you don't represent because you don't cast spells would be, "Just as I have faith in my god, my god has faith in me. He knows I can accomplish the tasks he gives me and I trust that he gives me tasks I can accomplish, no matter how hard I might think them. What use would I be to god if I constantly required his power just to do what I should be doing already?"
Also people forget not every god is a healing or loving god. Some are worshiped out of terror, where your prayers are more akin to begging him not to crush you instead of giving you power. A god of disease is unlikely to want his priesthood going around curing disease (insert more examples here).
Also just because you can't magically heal the sick et al, doesn't mean you can't non-magically do it. By non-magically healing them you also have more time to spend with them to spread your religion.
Also divine power -- in what form? Spell like abilities? Training? Inspiration? Plenty of people see the divine in our 'ordinary' world -- how much more so would people see it when more potent displays of magic are visible?
Divine blessings have almost infinite form -- why would we assume the only form that a people would see them in is a specific subset of spell casting? Especially when it seems most people can't even discern the different types of magic in the first place?
For Golarion in specific there are a few gods(esses) that allow non-divine spellcasters into their priesthood. Nethsys is specifically called out as having a lot of wizards in his priesthood. And as mentioned earlier Desna has a number of non-divine casting priests as well.
In the RotRL campaign I was in, I had a Sylph Wizard(Air) that considered herself as a clergy member of the Desnan faith. It did include a lot of factors from RPing a strong faith in Desna and preaching now and then (although not super evangelical), but also the sheet did support this with a high Diplomacy and Kn:Religion.
Essentially, I agree with LazarX when it comes to a Priest being a role that can be filled by many. I will concede that in generic settings and even Golarion many priests are divine casters, but I still say not all of them have to be.
Also just because you can't magically heal the sick et al, doesn't mean you can't non-magically do it. By non-magically healing them you also have more time to spend with them to spread your religion.
Commoner: Oh great priest of Irori, my daughter is sick. Please call upon Irori's blessings to heal her before she dies!
"Priest": How about I put a wet cloth on her forehead?Commoner: How will that heal her?
"Priest": It won't. She'll probably still die. But she'll be more comfortable while she's dying.
Commoner: What? You're a freaking priest! Why won't you heal her???
"Priest": I can't. I'm just a monk. No magic. Hey, but watch me break these boards in the name of Irori...
Passerby: Pssst! Hey, I worship Saranrae, why don't you come with me, it's just down the street. We have a real priest who can save your daughter.
Commoner: I'm out of here. Screw Irori, I worship Saranrae now!
And then somewhere out in the cosmos, Irori starts to wonder if letting monks fill priestly roles is really a good idea...
Also divine power -- in what form? Spell like abilities? Training? Inspiration? Plenty of people see the divine in our 'ordinary' world -- how much more so would people see it when more potent displays of magic are visible?
How much LESS so when they see OTHER priests taking care of those followers while their own priest just shrugs his shoulders and says some version of "I can't do that because my god never lets me. I don't know why. I pray and pray and ask him to grant me spells but it never happens. So I spend my time meditating and breaking boards and trying to convince you not to change religions. Hey, wait, where are you going?"
And then somewhere out in the cosmos, Irori snaps his fingers and that monk gains a cleric level so Irori can start channeling spells down to him...
Also people forget not every god is a healing or loving god. Some are worshiped out of terror, where your prayers are more akin to begging him not to crush you instead of giving you power. A god of disease is unlikely to want his priesthood going around curing disease (insert more examples here).
Oh come now.
Even a god of disease and pestilence wants to keep HIS followers alive and kicking. Whatever juju gods get from having worshipers, they get less of it when those worshipers die.
Maybe the priesthood of a god of pestilence won't heal random strangers (for free), but they would surely heal their own faithful flock, if only to demonstrate how great and magnificent their god is and prove how much their god can control illness and can pick and choose who dies at any time.
Heck, they'd even cure random strangers for the right price, and for a chance to show off their evil power. Trading a momentary channel for a bag of gold or for a big favor ("Yeah, yeah, I'll cure your pox, but first you gotta go into that annoyingly good town over the hill and sneeze on everyone in the marketplace, then come back and I'll cure you.")
Also people forget not every god is a healing or loving god. Some are worshiped out of terror, where your prayers are more akin to begging him not to crush you instead of giving you power. A god of disease is unlikely to want his priesthood going around curing disease (insert more examples here).Oh come now.
Even a god of disease and pestilence wants to keep HIS followers alive and kicking. Whatever juju gods get from having worshipers, they get less of it when those worshipers die.
Maybe the priesthood of a god of pestilence won't heal random strangers (for free), but they would surely heal their own faithful flock, if only to demonstrate how great and magnificent their god is and prove how much their god can control illness and can pick and choose who dies at any time.
Heck, they'd even cure random strangers for the right price, and for a chance to show off their evil power. Trading a momentary channel for a bag of gold or for a big favor ("Yeah, yeah, I'll cure your pox, but first you gotta go into that annoyingly good town over the hill and sneeze on everyone in the marketplace, then come back and I'll cure you.")
what about rovagug im shure he doesn't give a crap.
The Exalted, Evangelist, and Sentinel prestige classes kind of exist for this sort of character. Deliverer Slayers can be used for martial priests as well.
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Commoner: Oh great priest of Irori, my daughter is sick. Please call upon Irori's blessings to heal her before she dies!
"Priest": How about I put a wet cloth on her forehead?
Commoner: How will that heal her?
"Priest": It won't. She'll probably still die. But she'll be more comfortable while she's dying.
Commoner: What? You're a freaking priest! Why won't you heal her???
"Priest": I can't. I'm just a monk. No magic. Hey, but watch me break these boards in the name of Irori...
Passerby: Pssst! Hey, I worship Saranrae, why don't you come with me, it's just down the street. We have a real priest who can save your daughter.
Commoner: I'm out of here. Screw Irori, I worship Saranrae now!And then somewhere out in the cosmos, Irori starts to wonder if letting monks fill priestly roles is really a good idea...
Some monks can heal (sub-optimally of course). Besides Irori seems to be very much a god of do it yourself and reach enlightenment in your own way. He even has stated beefs with Iomedae, Norgorber, and Cayden Cailean for using the starstone.
DM_Blake all I'm seeing is a whole host of "No I don't like it."
We have examples of the gods of disease not curing people, even their followers. We also have examples of people using divine power for things their gods don't agree with (the dawnflower at minimum has plenty of examples of this). What's more we have plenty of evidence that the gods are at best only barely paying attention.
Why would evil gods actually care about their followers? Perhaps you simply don't have a good grasp of actual evil.
You have to consider stats and the average person. The average person only has a 10 or 11 in wisdom with 8 and 9 also being very common. Even 6s and 7s aren't unusual. These people may still wish to be priests.
Some monks can heal (sub-optimally of course). Besides Irori seems to be very much a god of do it yourself and reach enlightenment in your own way. He even has stated beefs with Iomedae, Norgorber, and Cayden Cailean for using the starstone.
Commoner: Oh great priest of Irori, my daughter is sick. Please call upon Irori's blessings to heal her before she dies!
"Priest": How about I put a wet cloth on her forehead?
Commoner: How will that heal her?
"Priest": It won't. She'll probably still die. But she'll be more comfortable while she's dying.
Commoner: What? You're a freaking priest! Why won't you heal her???
"Priest": I can't. I'm just a monk. No magic. Hey, but watch me break these boards in the name of Irori...
Passerby: Pssst! Hey, I worship Saranrae, why don't you come with me, it's just down the street. We have a real priest who can save your daughter.
Commoner: I'm out of here. Screw Irori, I worship Saranrae now!And then somewhere out in the cosmos, Irori starts to wonder if letting monks fill priestly roles is really a good idea...
Meh I ignore the "steam rolled how I want it to go" situations because they are not relevant.
What's the child dying of? I've already proven at lower level the heal skill and some alchemical goods are better than a cure disease spell.
Hit point damage? Again that's easily taken care of with heal too. Yes it will take longer but doable.
Poison? Heal skill again.
About the only on going afflictions that can't be easily handled is drain, and curses, and even then there are other solutions.
Ultimately if you are solving people's problems to convert them it generally isn't going to matter to them how you solve it just that it's solved.
what about rovagug im shure he doesn't give a crap.Also people forget not every god is a healing or loving god. Some are worshiped out of terror, where your prayers are more akin to begging him not to crush you instead of giving you power. A god of disease is unlikely to want his priesthood going around curing disease (insert more examples here).Oh come now.
Even a god of disease and pestilence wants to keep HIS followers alive and kicking. Whatever juju gods get from having worshipers, they get less of it when those worshipers die.
Maybe the priesthood of a god of pestilence won't heal random strangers (for free), but they would surely heal their own faithful flock, if only to demonstrate how great and magnificent their god is and prove how much their god can control illness and can pick and choose who dies at any time.
Heck, they'd even cure random strangers for the right price, and for a chance to show off their evil power. Trading a momentary channel for a bag of gold or for a big favor ("Yeah, yeah, I'll cure your pox, but first you gotta go into that annoyingly good town over the hill and sneeze on everyone in the marketplace, then come back and I'll cure you.")
Rovagug does indeed not give a crap. He's just a more powerful Deific entity than almost all of the other gods combined as a baseline.
Worship power just makes Gods stronger aside from that base level.
Basically God+Worship Power is greater than just God. Except in the case of Rovagug since he's a super bad ass killing machine god.
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Good question.
I'm going to side with "no" for reasons stated above - the economics argument is pretty compelling.
It is a very good idea for Gods to be represented by Spellcasters, but I don't think it's absolutely mandatory. A rank in Profession (priest) and/or Perform (oratory) would be minimally sufficient I think.
I feel like Gorum would have more respect for his priests that don't use magic.
In pathfinder gods don't get power from Worship.
Yup. Pathfinder Gods give out powers not in order to increase their own influence, but as a means to further their own ends (Asmodeus, any of the crusader gods), because they're bros and giving out super powers to your bros is a cool bro thing to do, bro (Cayden Cailean, probably Gorum), or literally just for ***** and giggles (Rovagug).
I see no reason that a commoner or expert could not be a priest. Most real world priests would be those classes.
Expert sure, but I dunno about Commoner. There's a lot of stuff an actual priest needs to know that 2+Int skills can't cover very well.
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One's occupation itself does not directly grant you spells. Access to magic is generally circumstantial and linked to individual aptitude and magical talent. For example a priest of moderate prestige of a god of labor and toil may have no spellcasting ability, whereas the local baker's daughter who unknowingly exemplifies the teachings/ideals of that same deity inexplicably develops some magical power. I don't mean to imply that it is easier to accidentally receive divine power, that was just one example. Not all wizards have beards, not all fighters wear platemail, not all dragons hoard treasure, some white people can dance, and not all priests cast spells.
This whole reliance on magical healing frightens me. I feel like Golarion will never develop medical science if magic gets tossed around every time someone gets a sprained ankle. Now, that doesn't really matter, but I guess that level of casual magic just rubs me the wrong way.
Also, Rynjin, I'd think Bluff or Perform (Oratory) and Knowledge (Religion) cover the skills necessary to be a priest in the real world...
In my experience it seems to be more Bluff than anything else.
Boom.
One's occupation itself does not directly grant you spells. Access to magic is generally circumstantial and linked to individual aptitude and magical talent. For example a priest of moderate prestige of a god of labor and toil may have no spellcasting ability, whereas the local baker's daughter who unknowingly exemplifies the teachings/ideals of that same deity inexplicably develops some magical power. I don't mean to imply that it is easier to accidentally receive divine power, that was just one example. Not all wizards have beards, not all fighters wear platemail, not all dragons hoard treasure, some white people can dance, and not all priests cast spells.
This whole reliance on magical healing frightens me. I feel like Golarion will never develop medical science if magic gets tossed around every time someone gets a sprained ankle. Now, that doesn't really matter, but I guess that level of casual magic just rubs me the wrong way.
Also, Rynjin, I'd think Bluff or Perform (Oratory) and Knowledge (Religion) cover the skills necessary to be a priest in the real world...
In my experience it seems to be more Bluff than anything else.
Boom.
I think it depends on what you expect from your priest and how much one would think knowledge (religion) actually covers.
Is the priest also expected to be a healer in fantasy land, or does he have other members of the church who can heal people? Is the preist also a personal counselor? If so then diplomacy, and sense motive may be needed.
I really don't think there is one true answer to this. It depends on what the GM expects of priest in his world. However it is not a bad topic to discuss so that some other GM's can pull ideas from it.
Personally I would like for priest to have knowledge(religion), heal, diplomacy(maybe bluff for an evil priest), sense motive, and if he is supposed to be earning the church money as the head priest then maybe profession(priest) which can also be used in place of some knowledge checks. Some other decent skills would be perform(oratory).
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Does a sage of magical knowledge have to be able to cast arcane spells?
Does an historian have to have lived in the past they study?
Does a blacksmith have to be an Expert?
No.
A priest in Pathfinder is someone of faith who leads worship. A fighter can be a priest. A rogue can be a priest. A commoner, expert, barbarian, alchemist, bard, or aristocrat can be a priest. In general the only requirement is that they must lead others in worship and demonstrate why their faith is a good one to follow. In religions with an established church hierarchy, they will be given the authority to do so by that church, but there are many looser religions where someone could just choose to be a priest and nobody will argue.
Clerics are people who are specifically empowered by the god (with spells) to go and exert the god's will on the world. A cleric does not have to be a priest (though it's pretty likely).
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How common are casters in this world? If there's a cleric in every village, it seems likely that the cleric will be the priest; mundanes are going to find it hard to attract followers against that kind of competition.
If casters are rare, then non-casters will be fill the void.
I get the impression from Paizo materials that the average village does have a level 5 cleric hanging around in case the party needs a Remove Curse.
All PC classes are assumed to have a minimum attribute array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) which is sort of a "you must have these stats to qualify" requirement. Most NPCs do not have those stats (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8).
A priest (expert) would have Knowledge: Religion, Heal, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Profession (Priest) and either Perform (Oratory) or a specific skill that the deity prefers (both, for a human). I'd say this is the standard skill layout for your average Int: 10 priest, and more useful on a daily basis for performing actual priestly duties than somebody who can only cast cure light wounds a few times a day.
And if something comes along that the village priest can't handle, he sends a letter to the nearest temple to ask an actual cleric (and his friends, of course) to come help out.
I don't think all clerics are priest. Some evil cleric of Zon-kuthon is more likely to put you in more pain, and not even all good clerics may be priest. They may use their powers for the faith, but not be really good at ministering to people.
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No, specifically different from them. Adepts are more like the village midwife or cunning-man. They hail from a different magical and religious tradition, and they don't wander around performing services or spreading the faith, preferring a more low-profile/practical role.
Unless you want them to. :)
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I think I'm in the camp of saying that priest is a vocation, a profession, not necessarily tied to any one PC/NPC class. I could see a forest expert and hunter being a priest of Erastil. He has no magic but cares deeply for his community and the wilds in the surrounding hinterlands. Folks come by to gather advice, he occasionally sermonizes on topics like conservation and land management and each year he asks Old Deadeye's blessing on the harvest.
He is, however, just an expert hunter who knows a lot about the faith and wants to fulfill its tenets. He may ALSO work with an adept that is the village "witch"; she grows herbs and makes healing draughts but she's cookoo for coacoa puffs so she only works with the priest. He in turn sells this "healing" and uses the herbs/alchemical healing boosters in his own mundane skills.
I will concede though that higher level representatives of the faith would be spellcasters, at least in my game. Having an Aristocrat 6/Expert 8 as the leader of a grand bank of Abadar in a major city seems underwhelming. Sure she can count money REALLY well, knows all the trade laws by heart and is a staunch adherent to the faith, but she can't cast a simple alarm spell!
Or can't she?
Egyptian priests used to "fake it" with magic all the time. They had pneumatic doors, statues that seemed to breathe fire, and other "miraculous" tech. Why can't the parish priest have that?
Go back to that priest of Erastil I was talking about. Maybe in working with the local witch she's taught him how to use a couple wands. Now as an Expert 4 he's got a UMD of +10 and from either the witch or traveling adventurers he's spent his WBL on a small assortment of wands and potions. On rare occasions he attempts to use a 0 or 1st level scroll. Using these sparingly he can deliver healing, deal with diseases and help identify magic items brought back to the village from the dungeon nearby.
If you don't like wands you can give him some cheap, low-level wondrous items. Heck, if he's level 7 you could even have him MAKING magic items.
TL/DR; my point is I think a "priest" can be anyone you want them to be.
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In reference to what I posted earlier and after hearing more opinions....
I still don't think it's required to cast spells. But I still don't think many people would consider you much of a priest, nor would you ever become an important figure within the clergy of a deity without being capable of casting spells.
So you can be a "priest" but in my opinion only in the loosest sense of it.
A priest is a person authorized to the sacred rituals of a deity or deities. A mediary between normal people and the deity.
To me, what most people here are describing is something much more along the lines of a lay person of the faith. You represent the faith, you are knowledgable about the faith. You may even preach it to others. But you are not a formal leader of a church or "the" church of INSERTDEITYHERE.
So I guess my point is that it's not a formal requirement, but in my mind it is a practical requirement.
Anyone can talk about their deity, but that doesn't make them a priest.
"I can hope my ass is made of ice-cream but that don't make me a hot fudge sundae." - Bender B. Rodriguez
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A priest is a person authorized to the sacred rituals of a deity or deities. A mediary between normal people and the deity.To me, what most people here are describing is something much more along the lines of a lay person of the faith. You represent the faith, you are knowledgable about the faith. You may even preach it to others. But you are not a formal leader of a church or "the" church of INSERTDEITYHERE.
I'm not seeing anything about "spells" in there. I'm seeing a lot about "authorized" and "formal," but nothing about "spells."
Even in the real world, a lot of religions have a hereditary priesthood that has nothing to do even with the knowledge of religion. (See, for example, the Jewish kohanim. The kohanim have the responsibility of leading ceremonial prayers, but if you want an expert on Jewish theology, law, or tradition, that was the rabbi's job.)
Other religions practice a form of gerontocracy, where the person who leads the congregation is the eldest,
It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Erastil, for example, expected his prayers to be led by the eldest male in a community (in the same sense that the Jewish Passover service includes a set of four questions to be asked by the youngest person in the group). Sure, there might be an actual card-carrying cleric of Erastil in the community, but precisely because she's a female and only 20 years old, she doesn't fit into the "traditional" role of village headman (and as a cleric of Erastil, she probably accepts this).
Anyone can talk about their deity, but that doesn't make them a priest.
No, but anyone who is formally expected and authorized to talk about their deity is a priest.
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I'm not seeing anything about "spells" in there. I'm seeing a lot about "authorized" and "formal," but nothing about "spells."
Don't be...I'm not sure what the word I'm looking for here is. But you no very well the reason that spells aren't mentioned in a formal definition of what a priest is IN REAL LIFE is because magic doesn't exist. However, in a make believe world where magic is real and you have people who wield magic granted by their patron deity, it seems like the surest sign that a deity is authorizing that individual as a a representative of them.
Even in the real world, a lot of religions have a hereditary priesthood that has nothing to do even with the knowledge of religion. (See, for example, the Jewish kohanim. The kohanim have the responsibility of leading ceremonial prayers, but if you want an expert on Jewish theology, law, or tradition, that was the rabbi's job.)
Modern Kohanim aren't preists. They are decendants of priest. It does give them some special "rights", but this is more a cultural tradition.
Other religions practice a form of gerontocracy, where the person who leads the congregation is the eldestCertainly lacking a priest, you may have the oldest member of a church lead prayers. But that doesn't mean the church gives them in any recognized authority.
No, but anyone who is formally expected and authorized to talk about their deity is a priest.
Yes, but the real question boils down to who is authorized by the church. For which we don't actually have much informaiton to go on for most of the deities. Becoming a priest in the all of the Abrahamic traiditions involded formal learning. Buddhists monks went to monastery.
Unfortunately, we don't have a guide to tell us which religions are formal enough to care and which aren't. Or what rights one must go through to reach the priestly status.
However, my conjecture is that I would expect those who complete such training would gain the ability to cast some divine spells as a signifier as a representative of their bond to their deity.
Yes, but the real question boils down to who is authorized by the church.
No, but anyone who is formally expected and authorized to talk about their deity is a priest.
Which is exactly my point. There's no indication anywhere in the books that spellcasting is even a consideration for receiving authorization to lead services.
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No, but anyone who is formally expected and authorized to talk about their deity is a priest.Yes, but the real question boils down to who is authorized by the church.
Which is exactly my point. There's no indication anywhere in the books that spellcasting is even a consideration for receiving authorization to lead services.
Not to mention many of the Chaotic (and even Neutral) deities along the Law-Chaos spectrum do not have formal churches that some are thinking about.
Many of the Chaotic deities in Golarion (Cayden, Gorum, Desna etc..)are called out as having loose, if not non-existent hierarchical churches.With that being said, I feel like there is no "formal" authorization for those churches to begin with.
Now the Law deities (Abadar, Iomadae, Asmodeus etc...) might have something different to say about that since both the god and the church are Lawful and probably have fairly strict hierarchies (the Catholic church hierarchy comes to mind when I think Lawful churches)