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Slim Jim wrote:

Any of the first three would probably be suitable for a "normal" game:

Pathfinder Race List

Human, Dual Talent (+2 to any two)
Caligni: (+2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT)
Kuru: (+2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT)

Monstrous or "very powerful" races....
Centaur: (+4 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, +2 WIS)
Adaro: (+2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, -2 INT)
Drider: (+2 STR, +2 DEX, +4 CON, +2 WIS)
Munavri: (+4 DEX, +2 CON, +2 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA, -2 STR)

Thank you! I actually like the Caligni as a choice and you're right that the "monstrous" ones maybe being a no go.

PossibleCabbage wrote:
For a Caligni, kineticist you can take the Sharp Eyes trait to get around the dazzled condition in bright light. Just say your people wandered out of the darklands through an opening that was located in the crown of the world.

Thank you as well. I might be able to spin it that way if I choose that race, but I guess we'll see.

PCScipio wrote:
Another thing to consider: being small has very little downside for a kineticist. Goblins make quite effective kineticists, despite the lack of a con bonus (they effectively have +3 to hit, and +1 AC).

I do like my little goblin friends, but I've already done a lot with them. Thank you for responding anyway, I do appreciate it.

deuxhero wrote:
I'd say Android, but their defenses are in many ways redundant with the 6th level ability.

And I do love androids too, but you're right and I don't think it would fit into this kind of character either. Thank you for suggesting it though.

avr wrote:
Merfolk fit the criteria (+2 Dex, Con & Cha; no penalties). Dealing with not having feet will be an ongoing issue for roleplaying good or ill. I assume a nihilistic merfolk would sing very sad songs.

I... I didn't think about that... That would actually be kinda interesting, though I wouldn't want to cripple myself that badly to start. I currently have no idea how much water there is going to be (though I know the campaign is primarily land based) and even with "strong tail" it might be too much of a hassle. Thank you though as you have given me an idea for a future character.

Slim Jim wrote:
Androids don't have a Con bonus (unless there's a variant type I didn't see).

I think they were just pushing that forward for the dex and the race traits that come with it. Of course it is a fantastic race (and sometimes over the top in terms of power), but as I said before I don't think it would fit in my current idea of the character and much of what it is become redundant after the class reaches a certain level.


Again thank you all for your suggestions so far, as I now have some choices to think over, and I hope you all have wonderful days.

I am still currently open for suggestions though, as I still have time for character creation (the game is a while off yet). If there are anymore suggestions I would be very appreciative to go over them. ^_^

PossibleCabbage wrote:
The long and short of it is that you can reduce the metakinesis cost (ideally to 0) by gathering power, but not via infusion specialization.

I understand that. The issue is the definition being given for terms I thought I understood, but being all over the place in actual implementation.

Gather power works for metakinesis for some reason, but specifies reducing burn cost, not burn accepted.

I just want an explanation to how this actually functions.

So I thought I had this on lock down, but now I'm kinda confused after going through it a few times. The Kineticist class references burn cost and accepting burn a few times, but doesn't give them a strict definition in relation to each other.

I thought:

1.) "Burn Cost" = base cost of composite blast, infusions and other wild talents.

- Can be increased for added effect sometimes (Like Foe Throw)

-Can be decreased through special abilities (like infusion specialization)

2.) "Accepting Burn" = burn you took... period

- Accepted for added effect (like Pulling Infusion)

-Activated other effects (Like elemental overflow)

-Had to be "accepted" in order for it to have any benefit (ie. cannot be reduced)

However... Things I have been reading recently have me kinda confused. For one, "Gather Power" has an editor's note where it said it can be used for metakinesis and omnikinesis where both say that you have to accept burn in order to use them (and gather power says it's used to reduce burn cost). "Metakinetic Master" also states that it reduces the burn cost of one metakinesis. There is even confusing text belonging to Pushing Infusion where it says and I quote "You can increase the burn cost of this infusion to increase the maximum distance pushed by 5 feet per additional point of burn accepted."

What the heck!? How does this work?

Does accepting burn only count for indirect abilities like elemental overlflow? Is everything else "burn cost" or "increasing burn cost" in disguise or something? Can you please explain this to me?

"In the Company of..." series of source books tend to make very customizable characters, but I can attest to their balance and sometimes under powered nature compared to core classes. They tend to suffer from having a lot of options, but tend to be specific and niche in many cases (with not a lot of "slots" to fill them with).

1.) For your first question about it being too powerful, not really. The largest bonus is definitely going to be your size (natural weapon dice "size", cmb, cmd, higher str and con) and that's not always useful (small corridors, dungeons, lower bab, lower ac, and lower dex from size mods). You having to take "human" shape is definitely a testament to that as it makes you incredibly weak compared to your dragon shape, in fact it may be unplayable for your use for dungeon exploration as it gets rid of almost all of your abilities and your natural attacks. It is more useful for roleplaying, npc interaction, or disguise. If you want more use, it would probably have to be animal form, or somehow decreasing your size temporarily.

Now, also note that despite you having these options, you barely have any abilities. Its also more difficult to find items that work for you as a dragon due to your body type and the fact that you have to hobble around if you use a magic item that requires you to hold in in your hand.

Not to say that I hate this class/race (I love dragons in general as a rule), but it is a far cry from being a full on dragon.

2.) You generally don't need to care about dex too much. You don't use it for anything besides touch AC and that can be generally mitigated by taking "Enchanted Scales (Su)." 1/2 of your total natural AC bonus is treated as a deflection bonus against touch attacks. Not the end all be all, but it's better than not having it.

Like it says on the tin. I was wondering if there was a good choice for a +Con +Dex (- or + anything else) race that wasn't just Hobgoblin (though I'm not against it if I have to, just wanted something a little more fresh). The more interesting, lore heavy, and/or roleplay opportunity centric the better. 3rd party extremely welcome (considering the forum)! ^_^

Please post the name of the race, a little description, and the source.

If it matters, my character is going to be a Nihilicist archetype Kineticist (Legendary Kineticists 2 or Ultimate Kineticist from Legendary Games). Kinda gimmicky kineticist archetype that get's rid of it's element to focus on its own special damage type and inflicting status effects. A little limited in terms of choices I come to find out, but very good at destroying things in its way (especially objects apparently) and found me coming up with ways to use the blast it has as a utility power (go figure).

Any help would be appreciated and thank you for anything you can send my way.

In the second printing of Ultimate Magic (March 2012), Vow of Silence gave you 1 ki per level instead of what the PRD said being 1 ki per 6 levels. At the time there was some confusion as their was no errata for this explaining the change and the PRD remained unchanged (Some Details in reference posts below). I have no clue if this was changed in the 2018 softcover printing of the book, but the PRD remains unchanged from that time (and Archives of Nethys, its replacement after it stopped being updated, still has the 1 ki per 6).

Of course, since there was no update or mention of it, its highly likely that the change was just a missed misprint and a further missed clarification as they never appeared in the only 3 posts talking about to make the change/mistake right. However, since there is no official clarification, the possibility that the second printing is correct can't be ruled out (and maybe if this gets enough attention, we can finally have the answer).

Personally I do think that this could be correct as it can be highly detrimental (though I don't think it truly matches Vow of Poverty as you are essentially restricted to one magic item and not many other items). It does limit your ability to communicate significantly (including related checks) and it makes it impossible to activate magic items that require you to be able to speak, such as command word items (as I don't think you can even use magic device to bypass this as it describes you having to do an equivalent action in order to try and activate it, ie. you have to speak if you want to activate a command word item).

What do you think about this? Also, was this actually answered anywhere else?

Reference Posts:

Monk Vow of Silence Discrepency

HELP!!! Monk Vow of Silence Problem

Easy "FAQ Friday" candidate - Vow of Silence

Entymal wrote:

Relative size and density of creatures aside, the question is whether a character gets pinned or crushed under a falling object.

Common sense is the first consideration. I once dropped a 5' thick slab of ceiling into a room full of monsters with only two doors out. A few near the doors could have survived but the rest are dead, or at least out of the fight.

I would say that if they have an unobstructed path and enough movement(single move) to cover the distance then the reflex roll represents getting clear. The half damage is from getting tagged.

If they don't have enough move, check the damage to the falling object. If it breaks, or takes half damage, then it likely broke over the obstructing character which means they might be inside an arch or crack in the resulting rubble.

If reason or circumstances say the character remains under the boulder, and if it's flat enough or large enough that it's unlikely to roll off then the character is pinned. If they still have hit points left they start suffocating. Each round, all interested characters can try to move the weight.

That's how I'd handle it.

Thank you, I think that is a very good way to handle it. So kinda similar to cave collapse, but on a smaller scale with reflex to hopefully get out.

Java Man wrote:
What I mean is if a creature filled an entire 5 foot cube it would weigh over 3 tons, which medium creature's do not. So a medium rock does not fill a 5 foot cube.

... I don't follow. I'm not trying to disagree with you I simply don't understand what you are getting at.

If a creature filled a 5 foot cube it could weigh 3 tons, but it could also be less or more depending on what the creauture is and how dense it is. I also fail to understand how this has any bearing on how large the boulder is if its medium. Your logic written follows: If a creature fills a 5ft cube > it would weigh over 3 tons; because medium creatures don't weigh three tons > a medium rock doesn't fill a 5ft cube. It's not making logical sense to me.

Java Man wrote:
A 5 x 5 x 5 animal would weigh around 3.5 tons, which is a tad above medium size, so your boulder weights should come down a little.

I don't get what you mean? What animal are you talking about? Also, my weights are based on the average for sandstone and aren't based on exact measurements.

Regardless, the focus isn't the sandstone itself, but what would happen if an exceedingly large/heavy object fell on you? In combat, you can only move if you move your character or if something else moves it for you. Out of turn, it becomes less likely that you move your character unless you held your turn or your action (however, this is only done in response to something you state specifically).

Also, as far as I'm aware, rules for crushing are almost nonexistent and the rules for falling objects seem to ignore this entirely (imagine getting bonked on the head comically by this oversized boulder and it bounces off to the side, leaving you with a bruised noggin, instead of flattening you).

My question entails what happens to the character and what happens to the object? If there are rules for this I am stumped and if there isn't how would you handle it?

Falling Objects wrote:

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their size and the distance they have fallen. Table: Damage from Falling Objects determines the amount of damage dealt by an object based on its size. Note that this assumes that the object is made of dense, heavy material, such as stone. Objects made of lighter materials might deal as little as half the listed damage, subject to GM discretion. For example, a Huge boulder that hits a character deals 6d6 points of damage, whereas a Huge wooden wagon might deal only 3d6 damage. In addition, if an object falls less than 30 feet, it deals half the listed damage. If an object falls more than 150 feet, it deals double the listed damage. Note that a falling object takes the same amount of damage as it deals.

Dropping an object on a creature requires a ranged touch attack. Such attacks generally have a range increment of 20 feet. If an object falls on a creature (instead of being thrown), that creature can make a DC 15 Reflex save to halve the damage if he is aware of the object. Falling objects that are part of a trap use the trap rules instead of these general guidelines.

Let's say a large object is dropped on you. As an example, let's say this object is a large sandstone boulder. On average a sandstone boulder weighs about 150 lbs. per cubic foot. That's 18,750 lbs. for a medium size boulder (5x5x5) and 150,000 lbs. for a large size boulder (10x10x10).

Disregarding the ludicrously small amount of damage a large one would deal to you (4d6, half for less than 30ft, double for more than 150ft) what happens to your character if one were to fall on you while you were standing smack dab in the middle of one?

Assuming that your character passes the reflex saving throw initially for half damage do they:

A.) Get tagged and pushed/jump out of the way?
B.) Get "tagged" but get a limb caught/pinned underneath for crushing time?
C.) Get paradoxically "tagged" but are then crushed underneath the boulder?
D.) Other?

(Same questions for a failed initial saving throw except you know what that generally implies)

How does this work exactly?

If this appears like an easy question for you, what do you say when the object in question becomes larger (Huge, Gargantuan, colossal, and further)? I think it becomes harder to answer as the object becomes larger because the distance to the "escape" point around the outer edge of the object becomes farther away from your dodging character.

There isn't any hard rules I can find for this and crushing is also obscure (only thing I can find is cave collapse and monster attacks). I assume after some point a large enough falling object is impossible to escape and survive except through magical means.

The reason I present this question is both for players and gms because of some thoughts I've had lately and some games that I've had some experience with in the past. If there isn't any hard rules on this, how would you do it?

Astral Construct

Advanced Constructs wrote:
Utility (Ex): Your construct can perform tasks for you. This can include such tasks as cleaning, cooking, or setting up camp, or any other activity that requires a DC 10 or lower skill check. An astral construct with this option does not need to stay close to the manifester and will continue following any given order until given other instructions. You can select this menu option multiple times. Each time, the DC of skill checks the construct can attempt increases by 2. An astral construct with this option that is not used in combat has a duration of 1 hr./lvl.. If it later enters combat, its duration resets to 1 round/lvl., but suffers a -2 penalty to its attack rolls.

The wording of this is screwing with my brain, so I thought to ask the community.

An Astral Construct is a "Mindless Construct," the definition of mindless being debated as to its exact effect within the community and usually subject to DM interpretation, but usually goes along the lines of not being able to make INT skill/ability checks and not having the initiative or understanding with actions that require choice (basically, they have to be babysat and told what to do constantly unless you only want them to do one thing). I have seen games where the INT restriction was lifted for crafting as long as it was surpervised, but generally speaking the community majority goes for the prior.

Now I ask, what does the bolded text mean exactly? I was under the assumption that as long as the construct didn't have to be trained in the skill or it wasn't intelligence based, it could perform the skill in question (albeit usually poorly because of lack of ranks and class skills).

I have come up with a few ideas as to the meaning but I'm not sure with any of them:

1.) It allows them to make certain checks untrained as long as the dc is within the limit (thereby increasing the bounds of the limit by taking it multiple times).

2.) They automatically succeed at any check within the limit.... (kinda farfetched because of its op nature at higher levels and the wording in the second bolded text about "attempts").

3.) I was wrong about mindless constructs being able to make most untrained skill checks, and this allows it to within the limit (especially dumb sounding when certain skills seems so intrinsic like climb, acrobatics, swim, and sometimes fly).

Of course I may be missing something and this is my brain being dumb.... but anything you guys have to say about this would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance! ^_^

There are some that appeared in the general discussion forums within the last 2 hours. Flagged all of them. Around 18 so far.

Xenocrat wrote:

Don’t use pfsrd to determine whether Occult Adventures classes can cast a given spell. They didn’t update preeexisting spells when those classes were published.

Use Archives of Nethys, it even has a custom search that will find all Spiritualist spells with the Darkness or Shadow descriptors.

Thanks... Thats actually very helpful. I do hope they fix the pfsrd though. ^_^

Edit: Added spells-

Shadow jaunt
Shadow claws

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Currently playing a Shadow Caller (Spiritualist) and using Eclipsed Spell (Metamagic) and the Light cantrip to infuriate my DM.... not on purpose mind you.

Anyway, I was wondering if there were more Shadow/Darkness descriptor spells I could have options with. I think I found them all, but Shadow Endurance came out of the wood-work last second (not being listed in the spiritualist list on the pfsrd) and now I'm not so sure. (also shadow body isn't one... which is confusing)

Also... I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me why certain spells like Shadow Conjuration are listed, but spiritualist isn't listed within the spell itself... I'm hoping its an organization error on the part of the spell and not on the part of the spell list...

Thank you if you have any info that I can use, I really do appreciate it. ^_^

Shadow/Darkness Spells (Wall of Text Alert):
Dancing Darkness (1st) -
Darkness (2nd) -
Protective Penumbra (2nd) -
Twilight Haze (2nd) -
Deeper Darkness (3rd) -
Shield of Darkness (3rd) -
Ghost Brand (4th) -
Shadow Conjuration (4th) -
Shadowform (4th) -
Shadow Step (4th) -
Shadow Evocation (5th) -
Shadow Endurance* (5th) -
Baleful Shadow Transmutation (6th) -
Shadow Transmutation (6th) -
Shadow Walk (6th) -
Umbral Strike (6th) -

Main topic of discussion: Why use the spell Darkness instead of a Light spell altered by the Eclipsed Spell metamagic? (With the intention to make a build that deals with light levels)

Also, here is the Light/Darkness FAQ.

I guess I will start with my own thoughts on the matter. (With impute from you, the community, as to either why my interpretation is wrong or what ideas I may have missed or disregarded)

Light (Modified by Eclipsed Spell):

Pros- 10 minutes/lvl, cantrip = never run out of uses, as per Eclipsed Spell acts like Darkness in terms of darkess/light effects.

Cons- lower level, only one may be active at a time, uses a feat, interpretation may be wrong and only light level is changed in spell effect.

Pro/Con- Still has light descriptor.


Pros- higher spell level, interpretation may be wrong as in cons for light.

Cons- 1 minute/lvl, limited number of uses for a normal spell caster.

Pro/Con- Has darkness descriptor.


From what I have determined, it seems that the general use of the modified light spell is better than the darkness spell on most levels. The only major thing that makes darkness able to combat this spell metamagic combination is the abiity to have more than one active, for wider area coverage, and its higher level makes it harder to dispell, but doesnt matter much in the long run.

If my interpretation of things is wrong, please explain it to me, or if I am missing something that you have found, please enlighten me as to what that is.

Also as a bonus, what are cool things to do with eclipsed spell and the light/darkness descriptor spells out there? (Light, darkness, daylight, deeper darkness, dancing darkness, dancing lights, etc.)

Lamentable Belaborment (Ex):

At 6th level, an archivist can bewilder a creature already fascinated by his performance. Using this ability does not disrupt the fascinate effect, but it does require a standard action to activate (in addition to the free action to continue the fascinate effect). The target must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier). Success renders the target immune to this power for 24 hours, but failure leaves the target either dazed or confused (archivist’s choice) for as long as the performance continues. If the target takes damage, this effect ends immediately. This mind-affecting ability relies on audible components.
This ability replaces suggestion.

Fascinate (Su):
At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and capable of paying attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creatures affected. The Distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability.

Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and observes the performance for as long as the bard continues to maintain it. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.

1.) Does the the chosen effect end if fascinate ends?

2.) If facinate is still in effect, do targets affected by the confusion effect get up and move if they roll for attacking the closest creature and the closest target necessitates movement in order to attack?

3.) Does using this ability consume rounds of bardic performance alongside fascinate?

(Extra) Whats the point in dazing the target while fascinate is still in effect, especially if #1 was answered yes?

Shadow Caller and Spiritualist

Was wondering if anyone had any experience playing with this class, archetype, or campaign (without story spoilers) and if I could have a few pointers?

Yes, I am perfectly aware of the limitations for both the class and the archetype, but wanted to try it anyway and try to roleplay around these limitations. I think this will be interesting.

What I have come up with so far is a stealthy character who is a very capable spy. We rolled for stats, getting an 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, and 13 (now that I think about it, thats kinda strange). He is human. I have decided that dex is imperative, wis as a close second, and int should be a close third for ranks.

Stealth and perception can be made class skills through two traits I'm allowed (I know the shade is capable in these fields, but its better having and being capable than not having when the shade is occupied or otherwise unavailable). I also think one of my feats should be eclipsed spell for an early on minor darkness effect when paired with light and further utility with later levels.

Shade tactics may be incorporeal ground travel for long distances and spying, but I dont know how much combat viability the shade can have in either of its two forms due to its normal range restriction... I suppose It can be used as a small living wall/leashed attack dog...

Anyway... enough with my rambling. Do you guys have any advice, things that would be good to take, or changes in direction I should take (nothing, but the class, archetype, and race are set in stone due to character background reasons and gm story development).

Rajnish Umbra, Shadow Caller wrote:

First and foremost, I'm not that kind of Shadow Caller, I am this kind of Shadow Caller. So my name does not mean I'm an expert.

With that out of the way...

1) RAW? Your shadow vanishes the moment it enters light, without any timer. This is part of the trade-off for being able to send it as far away as you want (as long as it's in darkness).
But remember, your shadow is Incorporeal...

First I would like to say thank you for being so forthwith and prompt... and also putting up with tired me so early in the morning.

I wish I would be more coherent when I write these things, but thats what happens when your brain wont settle down and you have an Idea for a character.

Thank you for answering my questions and I do think it funny that they reuse names for archetypes and classes sometimes.

One more quick question for anyone who wants to answer... since I forgot to do this in my original post (further impute not being closed, but I think he gave good points).

For Shadow Bound is the 5ft per 5 levels additional to adjacent (5 + 5 per 5 levels), as that is usually considered 5ft away anyway or is it overlaying the adjacent like in some text for effects, ie the choice of 5ft or 5ft per 5 levels?

Hello all! ^_^

Please excuse me if you believe this should be somewhere else and I will change it's location if asked.

Also, please excuse any questions you feel that have been repeated in other threads as I have only found a few talking about this particular archetype and not very many have been forthcoming.

Rule Questions:

Link to Shadow Caller and to Spiritualist.

1.) (my main question)

Shadow Bound states that it replaces Etheric Tether. If that is indeed the case, a) Etheric Tether states that it is responsible for the ability to take hits for your phantom so it doesn't leave the prime material plane and there is no replacing text for that in Shadow Bound and b) the same goes for no replacement text for rounds until it is sent back in case of being exposed to light or being away for too long (seems kinda harsh to be sent back immediately for random torch light and not even a single round to do anything about it).

Of course this can be by design... but it seems really harsh... Do you think that Shadow Bound is meant to be read as "This ability alters etheric tether" instead of its current text.


Shadow Bound (Su)

A shadow caller’s shade remains stable while adjacent to the shadow caller, or while up to 5 feet away from the shadow caller for every 5 levels the shadow caller possesses. If the shade moves beyond this distance, it is automatically dismissed back to the Shadow Plane (preventing the shade from being summoned back for 24 hours) unless the shadow caller concentrates as per the etheric tether ability. However, if both the shadow caller and shade are in areas of total darkness, the shade can move any distance from the shadow caller. If the shade is beyond its maximum distance and enters an area of dim or brighter illumination, it immediately returns to the Shadow Plane and cannot be summoned for 24 hours.

This ability replaces etheric tether.


Etheric Tether (Su)

At 1st level, a spiritualist can force the phantom to manifest in an area around her by pushing the phantom’s consciousness though the veil of ethereal essence, allowing it to fully manifest in either ectoplasmic or incorporeal form. Whenever her manifested phantom takes enough damage to send it back to the Ethereal Plane, as a reaction to the damage, the spiritualist can sacrifice any number of her hit points without using an action. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage dealt to the phantom. This can prevent the phantom from being sent back to the Ethereal Plane.

This tether is limited. When the phantom is fully manifested, it and the spiritualist must remain within 50 feet of one another for the phantom’s manifestation to stay stable with little to no concentration on the part of the spiritualist. The spiritualist can stretch the limited tether, but only when the phantom is in ectoplasmic form.

When a spiritualist starts her turn and her ectoplasmic phantom is more than 50 feet away from her (but closer than 100 feet), the spiritualist must concentrate on the link as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity or the ectoplasmic phantom immediately returns to the Ethereal Plane and cannot be summoned from that plane for 24 hours. This concentration can be interrupted as if it were a spell. Treat this effect’s spell level as equal to 1 + 1 per 10 feet farther than 50 feet that the phantom is from the spiritualist (maximum spell level 6th). If the tether is interrupted or the check fails, the phantom immediately snaps back into the consciousness of its spiritualist master.

If the ectoplasmic phantom is ever more than 100 feet away from its spiritualist, or the incorporeal phantom is ever 50 feet away from the spiritualist or outside of line of effect from the spiritualist for more than 1 round per spiritualist level the spiritualist possesses, the tether is automatically broken; the phantom immediately returns to the Ethereal Plane and can’t be summoned from that plane for 24 hours.

2.) (I admit that the next two are me just being nit-picky.)

Does Shade, the archetype ability "that alters phantom," actually do anything or is it just flavor?



A shadow caller gains a special kind of phantom known as a shade. A shade functions as a phantom, except as noted below. A shade is from the Shadow Plane instead of the Ethereal Plane. A shade is not confined to the shadow caller’s consciousness, but instead inhabits her shadow.

This ability alters phantom.

3.) All other abilities having to do with stealth bonuses seem to be (almost) useless against any creature with darkvision or see in darkness ability (except for skill focus stealth). By the wording of Umbral Shroud, it seems that this stealth bonus is exempt. I get that the reasoning for the special cancellation on every other ability as it is shadow/darkness based, but it seems that even though this seems to be along the same lines, it is unaffected. Am I reading this right? (not complaining, just checking my understanding)


Umbral Shroud

When the shadow caller reaches 7th level, her shade can emit a 10-foot aura of swirling shadows that grants all allies 20% concealment against creatures without darkvision or the see in darkness ability, and a +4 bonus on Stealth checks.

4.) In addition, does just having darkvision or see in darkness negate the other stealth bonuses or does the darkvision have to be in range?

ie, within the usual 60ft for most races or the special 90 - 120 ft for the special few.


X.) (Finally not rules questions per-say, but simply thematic... Ignore if you find this outside the scope of this type of thread)

a.) Why does darkvision/see in darkness wholly negate the most of the stealth mechanics of this archetype when the creature in question is primarily made to look like shadows/a shadow? It make more sense for it to be less effective, but whole negation seems a little to strong.

b.) If it was intended, why do you think from question 1 that the shade is more prone to disappearing, either through damage or by light?

c.) Is there any use for the shade going incorporeal, especially since the spiritualist can't concentrate to maintain its material plane existence if a random passerby "hits" it with torch light?

d.) Did anyone else notice that Emotionless (Su) never directly states that it replaces Emontional Focus for the phantom/shade?

Thank you to all who answer my questions and put up with my silliness.

bbangerter wrote:
SKR (one time member of the design time) made a comment regarding this here. While the post from him isn't official rules material, it may be sufficient to convince your group that, No, you cannot activate all the MM spells at once.

Thank you for this, every little bit towards clarifying this issue helps...

but SKR also didnt answer how magic items with common words as command words could be activated by accident and ignored how to handle them (though I believe this was unintentional). He specifically said that for a command word to work it needs to be directed at a magic item with a specific inflection (though nothing says it cant be a normal conversational tone) and didnt clarify how magic items were accidently activated if this was the case.

Not saying he isnt correct, but there is previous evidence to the contrary... though it could have been an earlier mistake to say so...

Edit: loengrin beat me to the punch.

Dαedαlus wrote:
Well, considering speaking is a free action, and activating a command-word triggered item is a standard action, there must be something beyond saying the right word that's beyond a simple password. What that is, we don't know, but it's something that prevents you from doing stuff like this.

D20PFSRD Magic Items


Command Word: If the activation is on command or if no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Basically what we saw when looking for rulings on this...

Kemuri Kunoichi wrote:
By the it is not legal. You cannot activate multiple effects at once...he could only activate 1 casting, regardless of what the command word is.

I agree with you to an extent. I dont believe something like this should be possible, but without a direct "this is illegal because..." from how to create magic items, it is just a statement of how we feel about it.

Yes it breaks action economy... does it say anywhere about using magic items in such a manner (especially saying a command word as a standard action) being impossible... I dont know... How would it be determined then which spells go off if multiple magic items had the same command word (or the same magic item with mutiple spells had the same command word).

As far as I know I dont have arguements against it despite how wrong it feels... Escpecially if it bypasses the action economy with no other manipulation of the device besides speaking.

Though... does the item actually require more manipulation, thus requiring a longer period of time to activate (I assume that command words are difficult to say for their fuction and use, thus requiring a standard action instead of a free... but we could be wrong)?

Saethori wrote:

What is the price of this item?

By default, activating a magic item with a command word is a standard action. The rules don't allow you to stack command words in such a significant manner, because this is literally cheating action economy.

At the base, an item that casts a CL 1 Magic Missile by command word would cost (1 x 1 x 1800), or 1800 gp. A CL 9 Magic Missile, to fire 5 missiles at once, would cost (9 x 1 x 1800), or 16,200 gp to use at will.

Temporarily setting aside that Magic Missile caps at 5 bolts, being able to hypothetically fire twenty-five at once would require Caster Level 49, so the cost of the item would be 88,200 gp. (and require extreme GM fiat)

But that requires changing up the rules for Magic Missile, of course. And, honestly, 88k for an at-will infinite-use automatic-hit 25d4+25 force damage attack (average of 87.5 damage) would be several layers of overpowered.

You can mitigate it somewhat by saying Intensified Spell works on Magic Missile. At this point, a CL 19 Intensified Magic Missile to fire 10 bolts would cost 102,600gp. A hypothetical CL49 quadruply-intensified Magic Missile (not that the rules support this) would cost 441,000gp. This is looking a lot more reasonable a price tag for the automatic 87 damage a round.

(information of pricing directly from Paizo's SRD)

To clarify, he isnt using magic missle at a higher level and all magic missle spells are at level 1. He is stacking the spells, meaning using the same spell over and over again on the item itself (25 magic missle spells, plural). Does that increase caster level of the item? If the spells were different, but of the same level and caster level, would this still be the case?

The "base" cost is around 8000 something gold after brining it down using restrictions.

I am not entirely certain of the math, but a he did a whole right up before showing it to my brother.

Lady-J wrote:
normally one can only cast one spell per turn unless one is quickened in which case they can cast 2 i would think same would apply to items

The arguement he gave however is that it is a single standard action to speak a command word, so all he has to do is make all of the spells linked to a single command word.

Logically speaking he could do this, rules wise it is very grey and broken because he is simply using an action to speak (using the required standard action because it is a single command word).

I dont know if command word items require any other manipulation besides that though... which is why the action economy is indeed suspect.

A player in a game my brother was running wrote up a wizard that created a glove that had stacking magic missle spells enchanted into it (about 25) that can be cast at will with a command word that is shared among them. He speaks a command word (standard action) and 25 magic missle spells are cast at the same time.

Disregarding price or level at the moment, is stacking the same spell legal? Is applying the same command word to all the spells on a single item legal?

If it is legal, how would it be done? (Level limits, pricing, etc)

(Would the rule of similar magic items/spells be applied? What would they be applied to and how?)

Also if it is legal, what are your opinions on balancing for or against the item (and other items that can abuse this ruling).

Please use quotes and page numbers to support your understanding if available.

Thanks in advance. ^_^


Kickstarter Link!

Hi! Arcanic Drake here!

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As I am not very good at hype, I will list a few features that you could help the dev team develop if they are supported with Kickstarter donations:

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>Myariad of creatures, quests, magic, lore, and the freedom of open-world exploration

>Freedom of choice. (Be good and help the lesser races around you, be bad and destroy all the towns you want, or ignore them and go exploring on your own)

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And what I said doesn't even do what they are trying to accomplish justice... I'm horrible at explaining things....

Please go to the kickstarter page and check it out!

Kickstarter Link!... Again!

N. Jolly wrote:
It's really a shame, since aside from foe throw and magnetic infusion, all the other 3rd level talents are pretty tame. Foe Throw/Magnetic Infusion are great, but the penalization for expanding is a harsh one to pay, and it really feels like the entire curve is thrown off.

I wouldn't say it's harsh. It's like saying multiclassing is harsh because I don't get all the cool stuff in one class at a particular level because I wanted to use that level to "expand" into getting more abilities from a different class.

Specialists simply get more things within their chosen specialization than generalists do because they put more time into it than they would dividing it among two or more fields of study.

I guess it's a little bit disappointing that you are slowed a little if your character concept goes along those lines... but fluff wise, dividing your attention (or in this case, your elemental connection) takes more work than it would be to focus it on one thing.

Maybe along the lines of something like this: here!

Though maybe more specialized?

Kalridian wrote:

If you are going with the sword or something similar, you could use an idea that i have wanted to use for a long time:

The sword (or other weapon) has been forged from the iron in the blood of a thousand righteous heroes/innocent children/virgins/whatever you want.

Somehow I just find the idea of a badguy burning away everything but the iron in the blood and collecting it to forge a blade very fitting for an evil artifact.

Edit: a friend just told me that apparently lord vetinari from the discworld series wields a blade that is said to be made in this fashion. Don't know if I read the book at some point or if I came up with it on my own, but beware, if one of your players is a Discworld nerd, he might accuse you of stealing the idea.

Just want to say that I like the sword idea.

Phylactery of the Overlord:
Major Necromantic Artifact

Description: An obsidian sphere about the size of a fist, encased in a spider-webbing of a silvery yet smoky, unknown metal. The sphere is perfect save for arcane sigils covering it's surface and a small crack on one side that seems to constantly leak a gaseous vapor.


1. An attuned user of the Phylactery (In possession of for 3 days) can perform a simple, 3 hour ritual that turns the holder into a Lich, with the artifact as its phylactery (user will keep class and level).

2. Every creature slain by the attuned, Lich-made holder of the artifact is raised as an intelligent undead creature under the holder's control (no HD limit).
- thence forth, all undead creatures made this way can also slay creatures and raise unintelligent undead under their control. (Normal necromancer HD limit)
-- and lastly, all unintelligent undead made this way can slay creatures and raise them as unintelligent undead under no ones control.

3. The user also gains the ability to use channel negative energy (with control undead) and can cast all inflict spells (according to their level) a certain number of times per day.
-May also grant other necromantic spells/abilities (such as create undead...)

4. Owner knows exact location of artifact at all times, can scry it, and will be alerted to any disturbances of said artifact.

Ego: LE Artifact (Communications through telepathy and can read thoughts)

Wants to control the world under one rule (though willing to share proxy rulership with owner) through any means possible and glory in a world filled with undeath.

Has a fickle personality and will use its influence for the express purpose of obtaining a more powerful owner:

Block of Text:
A combatant, that utters a clear proclamation of his intention to obtain the artifact and use it, can issue a challenge to the owner. This challenge will be answered: i.e. the artifact forces the owner to fight the challenger in single combat if he fails a battle of wills (all undead under the owners control ignores the challenger). (Such combat must be done without outside help from either side and any attempt on the challengers part to have outside help (or the challenger's true intentions aren't to use the artifact) will allow the owner to use his undead against the challenger.

If the Owner is defeated in such a way and destroyed they can't revive themselves until a minimum of four days have past. This allows the winner to attune to the artifact and perform the ritual, which shunt the previous owners soul to the afterlife and allows the new owner to take control of the undead army.

Destruction: A pure of heart, LG character may obtain the artifact and sacrifice themselves body and soul (both are irrevocably destroyed) to the artifact for the purpose of destroying it, using a simplified 5 minute form of the ritual normally used to transform an owner into a Lich (does not have to attune).

Avatar of Zon-Kuthon wrote:

Yeah, the more the merrier I say!

*The rest of Golarion's deities (both the deceased and the still alive ones) join the fun.*

Everyone run! Rovagug has escaped from his prison to.... trample our party? Screw you ya big buggy jerk!

*Takes one and chips a tooth on trying to bite one*

"Ow! Why are you serving these?"

Ventnor wrote:

I really don't think anyone is going to win unless this becomes a dead thread... the problem with this thread in particular is that you think you might have won, but then someone finds it and posts again...

Heck... I think it was dead for a while then someone necroed it...

Well, the party continues... What kind of snacks are we having?

Been a while since I've been here... I win?

=={==========- =={==========- =={==========- =={==========- =={==========-

And I'll Be Waiting! ^_^

=={==========- =={==========- =={==========- =={==========- =={==========-

Anyone else notice that the entirely finished characters are either CG or TN?

I think its interesting at least ^_^

.... I need to know more about psychic armory! Sounds very similar to something I've seen...

Also, one correction! +1 to attack bonus for all soulbolts due to masterwork. Corrected in alias.

Dwight "HollowForge" Davenport

Alias Here!

...Wall of text alert... sorry...

Physical Description:
Short tussled hair that can’t be tamed, neatly trimmed facial hair, short/skinny body with compact muscle, and has nice clothes with hints of wear and ash. Also has a tattoo on the back of his right hand of a sword with a crack spidering through it.

Height: 5’ 0”
Weight: 130 lb.
Hair: Light Brown
Eyes: Dark Blue

Cocky but sober, has most of his mind set towards his goals and will do anything to complete them. Also helpful to those who he thinks need it, but won’t “work” for free when it comes down to it.

Dwight Davenport - Soulknife (Soulbolt) 1
True Neutral Medium Human
Init +7; Perception +4
AC 17, touch 15, flatfooted 12
HP 10 (1d10 + 0 Con)
Fort +0, Ref +7, Will +2
Speed 30 ft.
Unarmed Strike +3 (1d3 + 2 nonlethal)
Small Mindbolt +6 (1d6) [100ft]
Medium Mindbolt +6 (1d8) [60ft]
Large Mindbolt +6 (1d10 + 2) [20ft]
Str 14, Dex 20 (18 + 2), Con 10, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Attack +1; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats: Wild Talent, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot
Traits: Talented Black Smith (Craft (Weapons)), Reactionary
Favoured Class: Soulknife (+1 skill)
Acrobatics 9 (1 Rank + 3 Class + 5 DEX)
Autohypnosis 4 (1 Rank + 3 Class + 0 WIS)
Climb 6 (1 Rank + 3 Class + 2 STR)
Craft (Weapons) 7 (1 Rank + 3 Class + 2 INT + 1 Trait)
Intimidate 3 (1 Rank + 3 Class – 1 CHA)
Knowledge (Psionics) 6 (1 Rank + 3 Class + 3 INT)
Perception 4 (1 Rank + 3 Class + 0 WIS)
Profession (Blacksmith) 4 (1 Rank + 3 Class + 0 WIS)
Languages: Common, Draconic, Aklo
Equipment: Leather Armor (15 lb.), Fighter’s Kit (29 lb.), Proof of Lineage
Current encumbrance: 44 lb. light load (<58, 59 – 116, 117 – 175 lb.)
Money: 191 gp
-Class Abilities-
Form Mindbolt
Shape Mindbolt
Launch Mindbolt

Grey Piece:
Proof of Lineage
Background: All Family members of the house of the HollowForge that become blacksmiths goes through a rite of passage in which they make their first work. This work is always small as to be worn about the neck or otherwise be carried on their person. The reason for making such a trinket is to show how the family curse manifests itself in a particular Blacksmith and to act as a signet "ring," as all first works have the family seal stamped on them.

Description: Dwight's First Work, Proof of Lineage, is in the shape of a small, Smoky colored Sword pendant with a multitude of lightly colored cracks running through it. The pendant also has a looped chain attached to the hilt that allows it to be worn about the neck.

Slotted Item: Neck

Cantrip: Conjurer's Toolbelt

Special Quality: Cracks in the pendant glow with a soft light like dimming embers and produces small wisps of smoke.

Many generations ago the progenitor of the House of the HollowForge made a deal with a long forgotten being of power. The price of this deal has been undefined to the rest of the family, but its effects remain to this day. All family members of the House of the HollowForge can, sometime during their lifetimes, make great, almost perfect works as blacksmiths... but due to the nature of the deal, all such works are flawed in some fashion. Each family member and descendant have, at least, a specific flaw that each and every single work that they create will express. However, this flaw never affects the integrity of the work, but only the works appearance.

Due to this their family motto is: "Perfection in Imperfection."

Dwight "HollowForge" Davenport
A young man born into the House of the HollowForge, Dwight Davenport wished to be a great Blacksmith like those before him, training under some of the best of his house. When the time came to make his First Work he was estatic... but something changed his perception of his profession. Upon completing the rite he was shocked to find that his family's curse visited upon him twofold: First, that spidering cracks appeared in the metal of his pendant, which to this date only the house's progenitor expressed and second, that a second flaw appeared in his work, that of a glossy smoke color tainting the metal, which none of his line has ever expressed. Crestfallen that all of his works would always have twice the flaws that his house were famous for, he grudgingly accepted his fate as an undefined omen for his family.

For a few years after, he made unique works for many people. Despite this, he couldn't shake the dread he was feeling about his situation and after a while, his family's situation. Why must all of their works be flawed? Is there anyway they can break their curse? He could picture the works he wanted to create in his head, but could never recreate them in real life. For a whole year, he became obsessed about how he could get rid of the curse. Wizards shook their heads at him, telling him that the flaws that his family worked into their metal wasn't the work of magic. Clerics could gain no insight from their deities as to the nature of his families affliction. Nothing would work, nothing would explain it and nothing would help him.

One night after many hours at the forge, creating flawed works where he wanted to create perfection, Dwight started to become increasingly frustrated. In a fit of rage, he snapped one of his blades in half, visualizing in perfect detail what he would rather create. A ghostly image of that particular weapon appeared, floating within his reach! The beauty of the work astounded him, even though it came directly from his mind. In joy, he almost grasped the blade, to feel its heft and balance that he new would be perfect. Immediately, he pulled back his hand, fearing that his touch would inflict his curse upon the weapon. Since that night, he's been practicing using what he calls mind forging, constantly perfecting the works of his mind, but never touching them. However, this also caused him to put more work into forging real weapons to practice what he was seeing in his mind's eye, even though his curse was always inflicted upon them.

In his last moments, he was in his forge secretly working on both arts of mind and metal and was sure that he was close to a breakthrough when he was taken. Shadow and pain consumed him... and then death took him... and then he woke...

Character Plan and In-game Character Reasoning:
Player's Plan:
Basically making a mid-range (or long-range if needed) character that fires off a lot of attacks and can help forge/fix weapons for others.

Characters Reasoning:
Dwight isn't a soulknife because of two reasons: he feels that touching his weapons would taint them somehow... which he defiantly doesn't want and that he is a smith, not a warrior (he knows enough about how to use weapons to make them and fit them to their owners... but doesn't feel he can wield them himself). He also makes a multitude of different "soulbolts" because he wanted to make many different perfect works in life... Though, he does have a favorite called Unrefined Vision (the large soul bolt he is mostly going to be using).

Money Roll and then Alias completion in a few:

Money: 5d6 ⇒ (5, 4, 1, 5, 6) = 21

210 gp

One more... what do we do with the psionic skills autohypnosis and knowledge (psionics). Don't use em or can we use em?


1. I assume that a Soulknife (Soulbolt) is okay.

2. Can my grey piece's cantrip be Conjurer's toolbelt? (Character is a blacksmith by trade)

3. Family boon/curse: Progenitor of the family of blacksmiths made a deal with a (as of yet) undefined being. Every member of the family and all descendants can make wondrous works, but every item made has a flaw of some sort (Doesn't affect gameplay, is only visual, and is for his story/roleplaying aspects)

I think I might have a character in mind. Just need the official recruitment for implementation.

Might be interested. Thinking Halfling Sea Singer (Bard).

Hmm. Interested!

Could you please do a full listing of character creation rules please?

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

Exactly. Its well rounded at least.

Just saying I'm still here and interested in an AD&D game!

bookrat wrote:
Arcanic Drake wrote:
Did the third playtest come out? If it did, I'm not sure I got my link for my copy...
It's the same link in drivethrurpg as the earlier versions. Just go redownload it.

...apparently the link in my library is broken... I guess I just have to wait for the full pdf to come out... Thanks though.

edit: Nevermind, they fixed it.

Back again!

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