Cinder Wolf

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NobyShroom wrote:

We were not defending a family or anything. For the bugbears we were ambushed by them on our way to our destination. After battle I took their heads and put them on pikes in the area we fought them.

For the worshipers of Norgorber we found a hideout of them and attacked them in their dining room. After the battle I went to get some javelins ready to set their heads on them and my DM said it was an evil act.

Solidly neutral at worst. Norgorber cultists are generally considered Very Bad People, as are bugbears. If your warning deters bugbears in the area from further ambushes I'd say you did the locals a favor. Evil is a real tangible thing in Pathfinder; it's got none of the real shades of grey we have here IRL.

A paladin might even do the same. Is it honorable to put your enemies heads on a pike? Depends on your definition of honor; it's not lying or using poison as per the code, deosnt even rise to that level really. Is it evil? Not unless your in a world where dismemberment disqualifies you from a your afterlife or something. Is it yucky and distasteful though?

Most likely, but not evil.


Self-explanatory, I cant clear my shopping cart no matter what I do.


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Sounds comlplicated. Maybe just let the whole thing go and continue the actual adventure?


In my home games we usually divide the treasure into equal portions of (number of adventurers+1). The extra share goes to cover resurrection costs and other things that are useful to the party. It also helps create a sense of group cohesion; you can fight your hardest to defend your buddies know that if you die they will have the funds to bring you back. Either everyone makes it out or no one does kind of thing.


Mythic bad, hero points better. Use hero points.


TheIronGiant6 wrote:
I've been told by many people that sometimes a lawful evil character can fit into parties better than chaotic neutral characters, but am unsure how it would work, roleplay-wise. My Lawful Evil wizard is focused on achieving ultimate magical power, by any means, and will lie, steal, and kill for it. I'm sure the paladin would love me doing that. Thoughts, or maybe stories of your L.E. characters in situations like these?

When I was thinking of examples in fiction of LE characters the first guy I thought of was The Operative from the movie Serenity. In the spoiler there's a direct quote from the film that backs me up I think.

Dialouge from Movie Serenity:
The Operative: I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: I don't murder children.
The Operative: I do. If I have to.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Why? Do you even know why they sent you?
The Operative: It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.
Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?
The Operative: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster.What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.
.

Also, pretty much any villain played by Robert Carlye in a movie or TV series is played as LE.


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Trinam wrote:

It's been said a couple of times, but 'Phylactery of faithfulness' is really the correct answer here.

Then you attempt to murder the guy for high treason and disregarding the rules of his country. If the GM doesn't then tell you that this is against your paladining, then you're clear. If he does, then you know to stop.

Just keep it in your bag and switch headbands before any important moral choice.

"This is a tough moral quandary we have here... Let me put on my thinking cap!"


Roan wrote:

Ok, so here's what I would do if I was the Paladin in question:

First off, although Paladins are required to respect legitimate authority that does not mean they have to follow all laws of the land. They can even "Respectfully disagree", as it were, and act on their own. IMHO, YMMV.

Given that, this Paladin should question the Prince in private,using magic to ensure sincerity if if possible. Then the paladin, based on his experience and the results of said interrogation, decides on the next course of action.

This could be exile, execution, a pardon, whatever. The point is that the Prince is the paladins prisoner, not the queens. He decides what to do, Moot and nobles be damned. If the punishment is execution (for crimes committed against the paladin and his friends or the people of the nation or whatever) then so be it. Let it be a lesson to all that no one is beyond the reach of the paladins God(dess)'s judgement.

Just make it clear to the public that the paladin is dispensing judgement, not the Queen. She can turn a blind eye since he was instrumental in the prince's capture. She couldnt stop it even she wanted to.

Fir extra effect have the paladin give a speech that boils down to "You want justice? I AM JUSTICE."

Post 2, in which I reply to myself:

The paladin in question could give the new queen an ultimatum of sorts; either she gives the Prince a trial and he washes his hands of the whole business, or they call off the betrothal and he takes matters into his own hands as described above. Because a legitimate paladin is not a national puppet or executioner (unless he is a paladin of Abadar, in which case a trial is most definitely in order).

Because the above mentioned speech has much less meaning coming from the Queens betrothed. Also this ultimatum will help demonstrate how much the Queen really cares for her betrothed.


Ok, so here's what I would do if I was the Paladin in question:

First off, although Paladins are required to respect legitimate authority that does not mean they have to follow all laws of the land. They can even "Respectfully disagree", as it were, and act on their own. IMHO, YMMV.

Given that, this Paladin should question the Prince in private,using magic to ensure sincerity if if possible. Then the paladin, based on his experience and the results of said interrogation, decides on the next course of action.

This could be exile, execution, a pardon, whatever. The point is that the Prince is the paladins prisoner, not the queens. He decides what to do, Moot and nobles be damned. If the punishment is execution (for crimes committed against the paladin and his friends or the people of the nation or whatever) then so be it. Let it be a lesson to all that no one is beyond the reach of the paladins God(dess)'s judgement.

Just make it clear to the public that the paladin is dispensing judgement, not the Queen. She can turn a blind eye since he was instrumental in the prince's capture. She couldnt stop it even she wanted to.

Fir extra effect have the paladin give a speech that boils down to "You want justice? I AM JUSTICE."


Terminalmancer wrote:

I'm running a Kingmaker game and the alternate profession rules sound like a great way to get the PCs more invested in their kingdom. I'm reading through them, though, and I have some questions about places where the rules are unclear and other places where features of the system do not have any effect.

I apologize because when I started digging into the mechanics, the entire system fell apart. I have tried to put it back together, but that makes this VERY LONG. Consider yourself warned.

1. Employees
Why would anyone want extra employees beyond the minimum? Each additional employee imposes a penalty on your Profession check but as far as I can tell, each employee beyond the minimum does not provide any mechanical benefit. I guess you could hire your no-good relatives (or fellow adventurers) to keep them busy, but it really feels like part of the ruleset just got deleted during the editing process and nobody noticed.

2. Finding an Assistant
What mechanical benefit does hiring an assistant with extra skill ranks provide? As written, there doesn't seem to be any benefit, even though the added cost remains.

3a. Counting Assistants
Since employees provide no mechanical benefit, are assistants supposed to count towards your employee count? One possible effect of this would be that a mobile business could only have 2 assistants maximum, thus forcing the business owner to spend at least 50% of their time working on the business?

3b. Counting Assistants Part 2
A side effect of 3a's hypothesis--one that may be borne out by the example in Pathfinder Unchained--is that each employee actually counts as an assistant, meaning that the PC does not need to spend any time running a Medium or Large business themselves, even with the minimum number of employees.

Is this intended? It seems to be, based on the example on page 79 under Determining Profits where the PC adds 2 extra assistants to a small business (for a total of 4 employees) and seems to spend zero time...

I read these rules too, and my thinking was that if you combined the business rules with Unlocked Profession skills you could make an obscene amount of money. Something like 6,000gp profit per day.


godfang wrote:

What's wrong with it? Any suggestions?

@Goth Guru: The dm insisted on 'no backsies' despite it clearly being an error?

Drug reference bro. Probably against the community guidelines or somesuch.

Maybe rename thread title to "Times you aren't sure if the GM has lost his mind or not..." or something like that.


At first I thought this thread was going to be about "Summon earth elemental, have it climb into catapult, launch at enemy castle."

With questions like "Since the earth elemental has earth glide would it take falling damage if it landed on earth or stone?" And "is an elemtal dumb enough to do this?"

OP, Your questions are good too ;)


Skeld wrote:
Quote:
You can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster's CR. For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster's CR. For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster's CR, or more. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information

I've bolded the relevant part. A successful knowledge check doesn't allow a player to know any piece of information they want to know, just a "relevant" piece of information. When I adjudicate these types of Knowledge checks, I give them (what I consider to be) the more common pieces of information first and reserve the rarer pieces for higher rolls.

For example, if my players encountered a Revenant, and rolled a 17 on their Knowledge (Religion) check, I'd start out with "Revenants are corporeal undead fueled by the need for vegeance against the one who murdered them" instead of "Revenants are sometimes overcome with helplessness when they encounter their own reflection."

-Skeld

I'd say there is some value in knowing where the information the knowledge check came from. Let's say you're a cleric and you just passed your DC 17 knowledge check to identify the revenent. I suspect in that case you would remember the tidbit about Revenents hating their reflection as opposed to less practical information about how they are created. Although practical depends on the context of the situation typically.

Let me give another example. The party runs into a puzzle based on analytical geometry.

DM: Make a Knowledge (Math) check.
Wizard PC: I got 22.
DM: That just barely beats the DC. You know that Rene Descartes is the father of modern analytical geometry.
Wizard PC: That's it? Well, s~+~.

I think that players that succeed on knowledge checks should get the most immediately useful information first and then trickier stuff after that.


Maverick898 wrote:

The other day someone linked an awesome picture of darth vader done up as a samurai that I absolutely loved.

This got me thinking...what would the Dark Lord look like if he were indeed a samurai in the pathfinder world...Well here's what I cooked up.

Thoughts?

Darth Vader

This is amusing to me since I'm pretty sure that George Lucas modeled Vader's helmet after samurai armor at the very least.

Lots of similarities between the Jedi and bushido as well.


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Very click-bait title.

I love it.


The people I play with really seem to li e the kind of inter party drama but they are too delicate sometimes to handle it being thrown there way. Case in point, I play a paladin so bro changes his rogue to assassin. I make paladin cool with that within reason (he has bigger fish to fry) assassin starts ripping out hearts of hostages. I call him out and he complains that I'm infringing on his fun or whatever. I give up and play a morally bland sorcerer no one bats an eye.

So then I figured to maximize my fun all my characters would be morally and or ethically bland, caring only for the premise of the adventure and their companions safety. Anything else was too fair tender for these guys.

Barbarian wants to kill big monsters, deosnt care how. Cleric of erastil wants to save his village, doesn't care so much how. Bard just wants a great story to tell his kids...

You get the idea.


Popupjoe wrote:
My girlfriend is playing a Ursula type witch in this AP. Her Familiar is a Blue-ringed Octopus. I didn't read all the way down in the description and I let it walk around on the ship, i guess there only supposed to be water animals. My question is did I make it too powerful if I let it survive on land as well? My girlfriend isn't a power gamer she'll never have the beast in combat and she mostly wants it for comic relief. It often hangs on her pretending to be exotic jewelery.

Meh, it's just a familiar. Having it walk on land hardly makes it too powerful. If anything the octopus is weaker than many familiars as you only get a +3 to swim checks compared to more traditionally useful abilities such as +3 perception or +4 initiative or the ability to speak.

I say keep it as is, no harm no foul.


Aelryinth wrote:

What would be really funny is if your reach with your bow included all those simiulacra.

Then Mythic Combat Reflexes. The simulacra start to cast-

145 AoO's with arrows later, only the wizard is left alive...

==Aelryinth

I think his reach isn't big enough to cover all those simulacra, and the ranged AoO requires a mythic point to be spent. Still, you can get reach out to 20 feat easy, and then if you combat patrol that become 40 all around. Again, I'm lowballing it but 40ft area of pain is pretty good, especiallly since there's no way anyhring can cast after a spell after that proc'ed concentration check or 90+.

You might be able to get around the mythic point requirement with snap shot. Yeah, that's a lot of deadly deadly arrows...


Anzyr wrote:


My initial starting day values will be slightly lower due to my lack of inherent bonus and profane bonus to my INT which acquiring is part of my week prep. In 6.5 days (actually 13.5 days thanks to Fast Time Demiplane, also cast on day 1 of prep week almost immediately), I can cast Simulacrum 10 times a day*. Twice out of of my 7th level slots (which will take 12 hours) and 8 times out of my 9th level slots via Wish (which takes less then 1 minute). So technically I'm producing 10 in 1 day 48 seconds. But I'll still get 145 (the 5 comes from the fact that my first day prep has less slots and needs those slots for other things) in the prep week.

And no, any other caster could not do all of this (at least not in the same time frame or as efficiently). I mean Shamans could, but that's only because they can hijack the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. Well my Sorcerer build could do all of this better, but that sheet practically just reads "I win."

I was wondering when Anzyr would show up and declare victory again. Took longer then expected, a little less then twelve hours since the last post it appears.

I think you might be underestimating the fighter that Adept_Woodright has brought in. I mean, look at this:

Adept_Woodright wrote:


Start: assume win initiative (will look at this if needed)
I will have a scroll of wish in order to transport the following pre-generated Simulacra. I use it on my first initiative of dual initiative from the agile template.
-2 Blood Hags (one of whom is constantly affected by sharesister via a Pleroma Aeon)
-1 Winter Hag
-1 Guardian Dragon
-2 Pleroma Aeons (Affected by Heroic Challenge, Divine Simple Casting)
I proceed to ready an action to cast Mythic Augmented Time Stop when the wall of godly force falls. I bring each of these creatures with me into the time stop.

Every 3 Rounds, I order my coven to create simulacra of the following creatures: Aeon Pleroma, Guardian Dragon, Mythic Red Wyrm Dragon.

One of the original Pleroma uses Mythic Time Stop to bring the new Aeon, Guardian Dragon, and Mythic Red Wyrm Dragon into the Time Stop effect (this requires three castings, using up all mythic spellcasting from the original Pleroma).

The new Guardian Dragon uses Heroic Challenge on the new Pleroma.

The cycle continues, generating as many iterations of this that can be fit into the original 24 hours of the spell (as long as the hags can operate)

In the meanwhile, the Guardian Dragon and Mythic Red Wyrm Dragons mosey on over to the killing area, where they use their abilities to set up Augmented Mythic Cloudkill covering the entire 100x100x100 ft area.

This eliminates all creatures of 13 HD or less, no save and no SR.

That's almost every simulacrum that is worthwhile (up to 27 HD creatures)

And that's during the fight using Mythic Time stop which lasts for several hours. I think a valid tactic would be for the Mythic Fighter to make Explosive Rune stacks (as mentioned upthread) and leave them sitting on a pedestal right in from of every Simmulacrum you brought. Since you are personally protected against Explosive Runes (I assume, I think that was discussed upthread) then the survivor of the explosion would be the Wizard, who get's targeted by the readied action to "Mythic Vital Strike the critter left standing". That could work.

The deeper darkness stagger is cool (good find btw) but doesn't work that well on the Mythic Fighter because Mythic Saves means he takes no effect from anything if he makes a save. I think he can reliably beat a DC 31 Fort save, especially with re-rolls.

Since Mythic Fighter can also reliably kill 1 simulcum each round (that's lowballing) then he has to survive for 145 rounds to kill you. That's a long time, but not really. He get's a free shot on anything that uses a spell or spell-like ability within reach or spend a Mythic Point to make a ranged attack so every time the Simulacra do the schtick potentially any of them within reach are going down and if mythic power is spent from far away I might add.

I think it was mentioned upthread that the Mythic Fighter Magic Jars into a Guardian Dragon. Just read that things stat-block and it's rough, rougher then the Harbringer Demon and actually not unique.

I still think the Mythic Fighter wins because he is Mythic and can duplicate Wizard tricks while also doing fighter stuff (FIGHTER SMASH!) and doing that mythically (FIGHTER SMASH SPELLS AND MONSTERS WITH 1K VITAL STRIKES! FIGHTER LAUGH AT PUNY MORTAL SPELLS).

Anzyr, I think we can agree that the wizard is very powerful but I'm just not seeing him outpower a Mythic 10 Fighter. Having played campaigns with Mythic rules I can tell you that they throw a lot of the precedents of normal pathfinder play out the window. Ask anyone who has played through Wrath of the Rightous, I'm sure most of them will agree. Also, as was mentioned upthread if your entire strategy is based around getting as many powerful simulacrum as possible then there is an issue with the spell itself.


Adept_Woodwright wrote:


Furthermore, you made repeated claims to being able I find my fighter, though your method was never made clear. It is difficult to design a reliable strategy if you are unwilling to explain your method (even if it is beyond obvious to you)
...

I think the tactic was simulacra carpet bomb area with invisibility purges and some darkness spell that also staggers and causes damage or some such. Honestly beyond my level of system mastery.

You know mythic timestop can stop time for hours making it almost impossible to hide from mythic fighter. I think?


Bandw2 wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Bandw2 wrote:
in all seriousness, "nope" is improper grammar for "i disagree" which is a complete thought.

Informal is not the same as improper grammar.

And 'nope' means 'no'.

and no is still an improper response for i disagree.

Forumites, please don't let this awesome thread end this way


Anzyr wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Anzyr wrote:

There isn't really a point to this thread anymore.

Last Sunday there was a big contest between to sides and one of the sides lost. Maybe if they hadn't passed it they could have won. Maybe if they'd instead tried to run it they could have won. But they didn't. So we already know who won that big contest last Sunday. And talking about what one side could have done is long past irrelevant already.

That was the other thread. Also, that "contest" was a sham.
Look just because your team didn't win the big game doesn't mean you can blame your teams loss on the referee calls. The fact that they passed it, when they should have run it is entirely the teams fault. You know?

I think youre confusing Super Bowl 49 with Super Bowl 40.

I also think the lack of a Fighter entry was because everyone thought "Someone else will do it." And someone else never did. likewise, you said previously in this thread that builds don't matter. I commend you for finally producing one, but I think the fighter crowd has at least proven thatthe fighter can stand a chance, at the very least.

it also appears that some people were having some fun theory crafting in this thread until someone showed up and told them not to bother because the wizard has already won forever.


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And I'm loving this thread again.

See, when people respect each other we can come up with all sorts of theory-crafting insanity! Cooperatively!


Anzyr wrote:
Celanian wrote:
Mathius wrote:

Hercs str for lifting

Base 20
+2 level
+5 Wish
+5 Mythic
+6 Belt
+2 Muscle of society
+2 cut your losses
+8 mule back cords
+20 Display for strength
+50 Mule strength
+4 rage

So far I have used 8 levels, 1 trait, 1 feat 1 mythic feat, and 1 class feature. Str 124 so far.

Still need in the neighborhood of 148 str to lift the earth once your factor in size.

If display of strength can stack with itself then 15 mythic power is all you need.

Wouldn't that be a level 20/mythic tier 10 character?

No that's between level 8 and level 11, you can tell from the +2 Level bonus to STR.

Edit: Slayer'd by Mathius.

Ant Haul could triple the whole thing maybe?


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A moderator should rename this thread "Argue with Anzyr!"

At this point I think that would be a more fitting title.


Torger Miltenberger wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
So while prepping stuff, I realized something awesome (for me). Time to cave to peer pressure. Wizard fight is on.

4 Days later

*Sound of crickets chirping*

*Tumbleweed blows by*

- Torger

At first I thought you were quoting me. My expectations for another 1000 posts in a few days have sadly been shattered. Not even the other thread is exploding.

I am disappoint.


I think I'll watch what happens here for a while instead of posting.

I bet it will be good... *gets popcorn*


Adept_Woodwright wrote:

Alas, I have to be the bearer of bad news Roan. As of this post, Anzyr has only contributed 253 of 1139 posts in this thread. (Source - search Anzyr in this thread. Read the name of the poster -- this goes pretty fast when you see where to look on each post, because it appears as though the system filters by poster first, then by relevance)

That's not quite a full quarter.

Give him time, Adept-Woodwright, give him time...

He only needs to make 47 of the next 61 posts. Not impossible.

In fact it would be easier for him if he made the next 147 out of 461. That is much more Reasonable.

No, I must excuse myself for the night. I have used the R word in this thread and that constitutes at least a 12-hour self-imposed exile. I'm sure you understand.


Norgrim Malgus wrote:
Roan wrote:
Norgrim Malgus wrote:
If this thread were a tangible object, I would have it bronzed and put on display. 1,132 posts (including mine), since Thursday, that's gotta be some kind of record man.

I think that fully 1/4 of those posts are from one person. Care to guess who? Here's some tips:

Smug, self-assured, subject of much (hilarious) ridicule so far. Proclaims they are right constantly in what I assume must be the largest echo chamber since Cable news. Proponent of Schrodingers Wizard-Actually-He's-a Sorcerer-Now-as-we-forum-scum-are-not-worthy-of-the-Wizards-true-glory.Does n't know anything about Myhtic rules and how borked they are Makes leaps in logic but balks when others do the same?

I imagine we can all guess who that was.

Forum Moderators have mercy on my soul.

lol, I have been tracking this thread out of pure entertainment value. Although I personally enjoy playing Wizards, I never make assumptions concerning ease of victory. Until I'm actually confronted with a combat encounter, I can't guarantee anything other than making the best out of my available options. Sometimes you win some, and sometimes you lose.

B-but Schrodingers Wizard can never lose! He exists in a constant superimposed state of victory. Until observed at least. Which is why HE MUST NEVER BE DIRECTLY OBSERVED. To do so could potentially shatter the grand illusion and bring -gasp- sense into this thread!

Blasphemy!

I thought that's what this thread was about! Seriously, anyone who's read all 1,100+ should realize that by now ;).


Adept_Woodwright wrote:


Oh, and Roan. Mythic Paragon ups that to 15 HD. Seriously, Mythic Cloudkill is great. Unfortunately, its not given by Divine Source, and I don't know another Rules given way to get it so we can take it as Mythic.

Construct Domain gives limited Wish. Mythic Spellcasting can make that Mythic Limited Wish, which can duplicate Mythic Wizard/Sorcerer spells 6th level and below.

I have done my homework this time :)


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WPharolin wrote:
Adept_Woodwright wrote:

I agree with you entirely Senko. I don't like where I've needed to go to attempt to counter potential tactics.

My hope is that, should we get something that works, we can make it more fighter like.

Wait, so your hope is to create a character with the maximum number of non-fighting man abilities that people will accept as still being a fighting man? The very fact that you require something that works first in order to begin making it more fighter like is telling don't you think?

The wacky Mythic tricks were in response to Explosive rules stacks and other shenanigans. Some would call that "clever spellcasting" while I would call it disingenuous.

In a straight out no pre-buffs duel it comes down to who wins initiative. Because the Mythic Fighter has a Mythic Vital Strike and can hit you from virtually any distance (let's assume he has a bow) for 1k damage a blow. Twice per round. Even if the Wizard wins inititive the Fighter is literally un-killable. Since the Wizard can't know that (remember no prep time) he likely levels a SoD spell at the Fighter. Who shrugs is off. Or a SoS spell that said Fighter can reroll 15+ times until he succeeds or he might be flat immune to already.

The thread exploded and it was GLORIOUS to watch.

It started with a simple premise like the one above, but then the arguments devolved into "But what if the Wizard had X?"

"Then the Fighter has Y"

"Yeah but a Wizard would never not be pre-buffed"

"Oh yeah? Mythic Vital Strike was being nice. Now Fighter bro is a DemiGod and has copied all your tricks."

"Well, my Wizard has tricks you don't know about."

"Do Tell."

"No, and actually now he's a sorcerer, with another trick that is even cooler.

"Seriously?"

"Yeah, and my dad could beat up your dad."

That about sums the thread. With liberal doses of one side ignoring the other. I'll let you guess which side ignored which ;).


Norgrim Malgus wrote:
If this thread were a tangible object, I would have it bronzed and put on display. 1,132 posts (including mine), since Thursday, that's gotta be some kind of record man.

I think that fully 1/4 of those posts are from one person. Care to guess who? Here's some tips:

Smug, self-assured, subject of much (hilarious) ridicule so far. Proclaims they are right constantly in what I assume must be the largest echo chamber since Cable news. Proponent of Schrodingers Wizard-Actually-He's-a Sorcerer-Now-as-we-forum-scum-are-not-worthy-of-the-Wizards-true-glory.Does n't know anything about Myhtic rules and how borked they are Makes leaps in logic but balks when others do the same?

I imagine we can all guess who that was.

Forum Moderators have mercy on my soul.


This thread has entertained me massively.

Anzyr, do you have an answer to Mythic Cloudkill? It works like regular Cloudkill except it works on critters that are immune to poison and has (at this tier) all the HD limits raised by 10. Those Solar Simulacra? No-save-just-dead. Any Simulacra you can make are also dead unless you can make them with more than 13 HD.

Also, seriously, the whole thread is dying to know how you counter Undetectable. Because the wording is super clear; can't be detected by anyone ever. He could walk up to you and tap you on the shoulder and YOU WOULDN'T FEEL IT EVER.


KestrelZ wrote:

Have we degenerated to the point that two undetectable, invisible opponents are dueling?

Wow, it's MMA tournaments for invisible friends.

Not surprising, I think.

Team Wizard started off with stacks of explosive runes carried by minions who tried to dispel it but were guaranteed to fail and therefore set off the runes next to the Fighter, annihilating him with 6d6 explosions. Then we entered into debates about Time Stop, Contingencies, etc. The Mythic You-Can't-Find-Me-Neener-Neener had to be done ;).

My point was to demonstrate the superiority of any character equipped with even 1 mythic tier compared with someone who wasn't. The battle between non-mythic Wizard (phenomenal cosmic power) vs. the Mythic Fighter (martials can't have nice things) was an excellent example of this.

Now, a regular 20th level Fighter vs. a Wizard of any level would be more interesting. I suspect the Wizard could pull off a win at level 12 earliest, since his power curve is geometric compared the Fighter's linear power curve. YMMV.


Adept_Woodwright wrote:
Feels too easy.

I think that was the general consensus for Wrath of the Righteous, so far the only Mythic AP. A GM even did an experiment with his own party after the imbalance became apparent.

He put the Mythic party in a blank white room with half of the monsters in Book 4 of WotR. That's right, half the encounters in the whole section of the AP. It was a massacre; the monsters lasted 4 rounds, no casualties on the PC's end.


I think the "Ask a God for something" clause in Miracle, although requiring GM arbitration, probably tips it even further towards Mythic Fighter.

Hell, even 1 tier is enough for Undetectable and therefore makes the Wizard's job of killing the fighter nigh impossible.

Here's another thought experiment: Could a Level 1 Commoner Mythic 10 Defeat a Level 20 Wizard? I'd say "Maybe". And that alone speaks to how hardcore Mythic is.


Adept_Woodwright wrote:


...

Roan, Arcane subdomain does not trade anything out for either wish or limited wish.

You're right, I misread. Miracle as a SLA is still pretty good though.


Adept_Woodwright wrote:

One thing that comes out of the X ability counter Y tactic is that it gives an idea of what all the fighter needs in his pocket to counter the many ways a wizard can attack. The same can be said for wizard's pocket against a fighter.

If somebody can compile more tactics than can be countered with the number of feats/class abilities/mythic abilities available, then you know you need to raise the fighters level/tier, or lower the wizard's level.

As it stands right now, it's been somewhat cyclical because there are builds/options that nobody has spoken against to counter: until a counter is fixed, we cannot really progress.

Unfortunately, the sheer rate at which this thread grows makes compiling a list of suggested tactics/counters difficult.

I think my original post here did a pretty good job. There were three main tactics for the Wizard and I showed the Fighter could potentially do all of them as well (using Divine Source), in addition to the typical "Get there and hit it with my sword" of your standard fighter.

EDIT: In addition to potential counters for the Wizards abilities, primarily "Be Invisible and Undetectable until opportunity to strike arises."


You get Wish from the Arcane Subdomain of Magic.

I wonder how 10th tier immortality interacts with HP loss and other death conditions, since it flatly says you cannot be killed. So if you have Diehard then I suppose Hit Point totals dont matter so much? I honestly dont know. Likewise for energy drain and such. Pretty clear cut for death effects though.

There are mythic abilities that make you immune to polymorph, curses, and compulsions so that eliminates a lot of the SoS schtick right there. Throw on Mythic Resolve to reroll until you pass the save for anything else and you should be set.

The Mythic Time Stop combined with Blindsight means you have literally hours to make 30ft radius sweeps to find the Wizard(s).

I think it comes down, really, to who wins initiative. The Wizard has the advantage there, but only by a small margin, I think.

IMO the fighter has only 1/4 of the Wizards spells but can also beat things to death very handidly. There was a Mythic Fighter Vital Strike build that could do something like 500 damage per swing easy, more on a crit. I know the conventional wisdom is that damage doesn't matter at this level of play but with SLAs to get him the opportunity to hit the gap closes quite a bit.


Marroar Gellantara wrote:

I have concluded throughout this thread that the wizard could "win". He could win several ways, but most wizards would die from sheer hubris.

I would say that a tier 10 Fighter is a fair fight with a level 20 wizard.

As I mention above, the 10 Tiers of Mythic can morph regular Fighter into DemiGod Fighter and change the parameters of the game immensely by giving the Fighter a bunch of mighty SLA, not the least of which being Wish and/Miracle.


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Ashiel wrote:

It doesn't require losing the duel. The wizard has spells explicitly to allow death as a tactic, which means the wizard can continue fighting until the wizard lacks a "not really dead" card to play.

I'll be honest, I only glanced at the mythic fighter sheet that was posted. Just seemed like a lot of big numbers to me, and big numbers don't really matter. I just explained what I would do to deal with any ol' high level slobberknocker, because that's all it really is. Having gone back and looked at the character sheet in greater detail, not much has changed.

As before. Mage's disjunction (DC 32-ish) ends all your active buffs and has decent (about 45% per item) chance of turning off your magic items for twenty minutes. I really only need a select few magic items to be assuredly gone (and that's if you have them, thanks to arcane sight) to determine how to kill the fighter. The simplest way is just enervation which I and my simulacrums may cast, as it eats 1d4 levels from your character (imposing a -1 to -4 to attacks, saves, skill, and ability checks). If under the effects of greater invisibility and greater than melee-range, even Blind-Fight does not save you. At which point your negative levels will eventually reach either A) 20, or B) enough to put you in a coffin (-10 or better on your saving throws is a good time to start getting the nail ready).

Now humorously you have Immortal. That's fine. Once you've been appropriately dealt with, I have a few options.

A) Turn you into a coffee table.
B) Animate you as a zombie (stripping you of your immortality [Su] ability)
C) Imprison you in the center of the planet.
D) Strip you naked, dismember you until you're a limbless stump, and keep you as a pet in a tank.
E) Baleful polymorph you into a snail.
F) Cast you into a demiplane prison of my creation.
G) Teleport you into a star.
H) Stuff your soul into a rock.
I) Feed said soul to a daemon.

It's not a matter of whether or not my "buffs come close to yours", it's merely that I don't need them too. Greater invisibility is all I need to buy the requisite opportunity to rip said Fighter to pieces after the , which I and my simulacra are perfectly capable of using. I don't ever need to meet your stats. Your stats are meaningless, I don't care about them.

All I need to do is provide the spells.
Mage's disjunction, greater invisibility, enervation, simulacrum, clone, contingency (dimension door), fickle winds, glitterdust, arcane sight, cloudkill, plane shift, ethereal jaunt, flesh to stone, trap the soul, animate dead, form of the dragon I, II, or III.

Might not even need all of them, but you never know what you're going to need or if a tarrasque needs to be squished or something. I'm also being sporting in that I'm not using things like wish->geas or simulacrum->magic jar shenanigans.

My Theoretical DemiGod Fighter has got Divine Source (for free Wishes or Miracles as needed and other spells) instead of beefy fighter stuff. So he has some other options then "Hit with sharpened metal"

Big guns?

Big guns.

Use Divine Source Wish to make a Simulacra of said Wizard you are about to fight. Do that until you feel comfortable. Send Wizards to Enervate. Watch his Wizards fight your Wizards. You then both retreat to your respective Demi-Planes. Repeat until both of you aren't having fun anymore. Meet later for tea and agree to a Cold War with Simulacra.


Our DemiGod Fighter could have Arcane Sight on all the time, that might let him see a spell being cast from an invisible person.

Since DemiGod Fighter COULD be able to cast Time Stop (even Mythic Time stop if needed, remember he is Schrodinger's demigod) he could get up to 5 rounds of time (or hours, mythic and all) to use Mythic Blindsense to find the invisible Wizard. Once found he could just camp next to him until the Time Stop ends. When Time Stop ends he smashes Wizard into a million pieces. Wizard DimDoors or Teleports away then Teleport Tactician activates and he gets a free AoO, which may be enough to kill Wizard all on it's own. Or he could use Power Word Stun (Mythic to make the HP threshhold at about 200 for 1d4 rounds of stun).

Again, nevermind that the once-per-day free Miracle can break the fight wide open with the "Ask a God for help" clause.

I admit my forum-formatting fu is poor :(


Anzyr wrote:
Roan wrote:

I'm enjoying this thread, especially the rapid-response nature of it. Good way to spend a Friday afternoon in rainy Washington State. Wish I had some popcorn :).

Reading it though I feel I can sum up some tactics and counter-tactics. It's my personal belief that mythic is almost always stronger than non-mythic. So that being said in my mind the fighter has already won. I’ll explain why below.

Point-by-point counter begins now:
1: Explosive runes tactic/: Ruined by spell immunity unless you have heightened the explosive runes to a higher level. You would need to heighten them to 9th level if the fighter knew about this ahead of time and got a hold of a scroll of greater spell immunity.

2: Time-Stop Shenanigans: A contingency spell can help with these shenanigans. The contingency is "If someone I can see casts Time Stop then I dimension door to somewhere else." Or go invisible. Or whatever. It costs some money to set-up, unless you have what I am about to describe.

3: Geas/Quest: Undone by Unbreakable Fighter 20.

1. Heighten can be done. But again it's irrelevent since the target has been hit with Mage's Disjunction. So the spell immunity won't save you.

2. You could do that. The Wizard has 5 rounds to find you though. Or to simple regroup and try again now that your only contingency for the day (or longer) is blown.

3. Sure. This was only mentioned cause the Fighter it was suggested against wasn't that.

Also you talk about saves. Please don't. They don't matter. None of the above tactics have saves.

Also it's super easy to get 50 STR. Just use Marionette Possession/Magic Jar on a high STR target, add some buffs and bam! Wish city. Even if you do take Divine Source you can essentially poorly imitate a Wizard which won't help you much, since the Wizard can do all of it multiple times a day. While Undetectable + Greater Invisibility is annoying, I have the reserves to carpet bomb the area with Greater Dispel Magic and Mage's Disjunction...

Point-by-Points, I love them!

More counter-points!:

Actually, I only need one: Contingency. Because Mythic Contingency allows you to make 1+1/2 Tier Contingency per casting. So the following contingency's could be in play:
1. DimDoor away if something is about to be dispelled.
2. DimDoor away if about to take damage (for explosive runes).
3. DimDoor away for time stop.
4. Blink three times and DimDoor wherever.
And then two more for whatever.

The thing is the mythic contingency provides cover for up 6 potential save-or-suck situations. Which, incidentally, is the only way you can take down Demigod Fighter because he can only be killed by an Artifact or another mythic dude. DimDoor Range is really big so it's gonna be hard to carpet bomb the entire area. Regrouping is a valid tactic, but for both of us because DemiGod Fighter can teleport away as needed as well, to his Demiplane home base or whatever.


Roxx: "I am just throwing a random idea here. Could the demigod fighter, and all his unlimited wishes, wish to be immune to one spell? Like, to be immune to the effects of the explosive runes?"

Likely within the limits of a Wish spell. I believe that Elminster in the Forgotten Realms has something like 5 spells he has Wished he was immune to (Magic Missle being one of them) so there is precedent.


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I'm enjoying this thread, especially the rapid-response nature of it. Good way to spend a Friday afternoon in rainy Washington State. Wish I had some popcorn :).

Reading it though I feel I can sum up some tactics and counter-tactics. It's my personal belief that mythic is almost always stronger than non-mythic. So that being said in my mind the fighter has already won. I’ll explain why below.

Point-by-point counter begins now:
1: Explosive runes tactic/: Ruined by spell immunity unless you have heightened the explosive runes to a higher level. You would need to heighten them to 9th level if the fighter knew about this ahead of time and got a hold of a scroll of greater spell immunity.

2: Time-Stop Shenanigans: A contingency spell can help with these shenanigans. The contingency is "If someone I can see casts Time Stop then I dimension door to somewhere else." Or go invisible. Or whatever. It costs some money to set-up, unless you have what I am about to describe.

3: Geas/Quest: Undone by Unbreakable Fighter 20.

All other points can probably be countered by the following:

Some folks might ask "Roan, why do you think mythic will always trump non-mythic?" and my response would be "Divine Source." The mythic ability you can pick up at Tier 3, 6 and 9 gives you spells effectively. You pick two domains the first time you take it and then 1 domain and two subdomains each time after and can cast one spell of each level per day as a spell-like ability. Remember, spell-likes have no components? And Miracle, Wish, Limited Wish, Time Stop, and Explosive Runes are domain spells you can access. In short all those cool things the wizard can do (especially tactics 1-3 listed above) said fighter can pull of with Divine Source. Sure, it's only once per day, but you don't have to pay gold for them, ever. Given enough time said fighter (or any class really) can do WHATEVER THEY WANT BECAUSE WISH DOESN'T COST MONeY. You want to turn it up to 11? Then take the feat Spell Lore and make them all Mythic. Mythic Time Stop can last for HOURS. Or Mythic Wish can be cast as an immediate action to make a d20 roll whatever you want it to be. Or be used to cast up to 8th level mythic spells YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW. I’ll give an example: Mythic Disintegrate has a fort save like the regular version but if you spend 3 mythic points to power it up it flat KILLS YOU if you fail the save.

But now we have a fighter who can cast spells (he's a god actually, so is it really spells he is casting?) up against a wizard. Does that invalidate my argument (mythic fighter wins because he is mythic)? Not within the parameters of said battle.

Admittedly Divine Source has some problems with it (what’s the caster level or save DCs of those spell-like abilities?). Even assuming worst case scenario based on the wording of other abilities (CL=Mythic Tier and DC=10+Tier+Cha) that still means you get Wish for free once per day. And that is nothing to sneeze at. You can enter the domain of GM arbitration by getting Miracle as a SLA and asking for big stuff from gods like “Kill that dumb wizard over who’s trying to kill me” as soon as your daily mythic commune ability lets you know someone is out to get you.

So Schrodinger’s wizard is countered by Schrodingers demi-god because Demi-god > Wizard because of potentially unlimited Miracles and Wishes, Miracle especially because it has the Clause “Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request.”, examples being bring armies back from the dead, stop volcanoes, etc.

Others might argue that Blood Money can make for Unlimited wishes more effectively than Divine Source but it’s gonna be tough to pump your STR up past 50 reliably as a Wizard.

Likewise the Fighter could also have Undetectable on his Legendary Item which means the Wizard will never ever be able to find him ever. It’s bad news. Fighter has greater invisibility, shouts “I’ll kill you!” then moves away in some direction. Both roll for initiative (surprise round), Wizard wins (or fighter lets him win). Wizard does stuff for however many rounds he feels like (time stop, etc) but can never find fighter no matter how hard he tries. On Fighters eventual turn he kills Wizard with one mighty blow. If mighty blow does not work then Fighter moves and repeats above tactics. The Wizard can run away but the Fighter will always win eventually because he can’t be found. We will say nothing of Divine Source powers in this case; if FIghter can Divine Source stuff then it’s even less fair.

Yes, the Mythic Fighter clearly won (in my mind anyway) by stealing the Wizard’s coolest toys with god-power and then beating him to death with them. Not to mention the 10th Tier ability that explicitly states you can only be killed by artifacts or a coup de grace by someone who is Mythic. Likewise Mythic Saves gives you Evasion with all your saves. Amazing Initiative and Mythic Improved Initiative means you will always go first.

Sorry for being so long-winded, felt it was necessary. Maybe we can put this thread to rest without having to make crazy builds and arenas to fight in. Maybe.


boring7 wrote:

Just set up a gentleman's agreement with the DM regarding what you can and can't do, and make sure instead of getting a ready pile of spend-on-anything cash you're doing something that helps your party members more than yourself and/or helps NPCs. But more on that in a bit.

At CL 15 you have to use plane shift to make any and all deliveries of food and such by hand. The demiplane needs an easier method of travel to really be useful in large-scale food production or other uses. Your wizard will have better things to do with his 7th level slots than 'porting a bunch of porters back and forth every single day.

Which brings me back to the point I was going to get to. Give the Demiplane a big diamond, just large enough to pay for making all the spells/effects you want permanent, add all the abilities you want including SEVERAL permanent portals which link to different cities in a kingdom, stack on protections against teleportation, and then hand the keys to the doors to the king. He gets a source of food for hundreds of people, a "royal road" that he can route troops and trade wagons through at great speed, and thanks to the in-plane river, a good source of fresh water.

The king will be very grateful (that has political benefits) and the GM will probably consider it decent role-playing (meaning less inclined to hit you with a nerf hammer).

You could even go beyond a kingdom. Set up an interdimensional "Little Sigil" which runs trade all over the world. The political ramifications of being literally EVERYONE'S neighbor, as well as a powerful wizard in a nearly-unassailable extra-planar fortress should be quite interesting. You can end up playing politics with kings and emperors. You can have an army of followers and subjects who choose to live and work in your planar paradise. You can be the mediator between major figures or organize a planetary defense force when Evils From Beyond (Demon lords, Cthulhu, whatever)...

The "Little Sigil" idea I actually used in a KingMaker gamer, to unite all the nations cities together. It was called "The Hall of Doors" and trade across the nation EXPLODED after that. In a good way :)


thegreenteagamer wrote:
graystone wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
Morgan Champion wrote:

After reading the wizard discovery lists on the Archives of Nethys web site, I came upon the Alchemical Affinity discovery (see the spoiler below). In addition to the caster level boost it provides to certain spells, wizards with this discovery can copy spells from an alchemist's formula book into their spell book. Since an alchemist has access to multiple healing and defensive spells of 6th level or less, does that mean that a wizard who takes this discovery would be able to learn healing spells?

** spoiler omitted **

Geeze, is Infernal Healing not good enough for you, like everyone else?

*grumble, grumble* Give wizards access to healing spells as it is, isn't good enough for some folks, back in my day wizards never got any kind of healing *grumble, grumble*

Are those darn goblin kids skateboarding in front of your house again?

Don't get me started on those whippersnappers!

You kids today, you don't appreciate how we had it. And when I was a kid, we went up-level, both ways, through the snow! And elf was a class, and we liked it that way!

You see, I wore an onion in my belt, because it was the style at the time. Back in those days, silver pieces had bees on them. "Gimme 10 bees for a gp", we'd say, of course to catch the ferry to Port Peril, we would, which back in those days was called Port Not Too Dangerous Yet, which none of us understood at the time, because we all wondered when it would be dangerous. Of course, that was before Calistira adopted the wasp as her symbol, and when she did, boy were we confused, because you see, you'd only get yourself two stings-of-the-wasp for a gp, so the conversion rate was a little off, and of course we'd say it's five bees a sting, but only if your stinger is strong, we would.

Now you see, this was before them dirty orcs started inbreeding with us good humans. Don't get me wrong, I know there's a few good orcs out there, got a daughter...

You, good sir, have won the thread.


Animal companion or Amor class? Because there is an animal companion cap (no more then +2 over your level iirc) but there is no specific armor class hard cap.

There may be a "soft cap", what a PC could accomplish if they use all their WBL gold efficiently towards increasing ac.


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Mergy wrote:
You could try having another deity approach the paladin?

I like this one the best personally. Have a cleric of a god more...compatible...with the paladin's ethos approach the paladin and offer to help them regain their powers but in the service of a diety with a more...grimdark...view on Lawful Good.


With the party you have described this sounds like role-playing gold. Run with it.

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