The Songbird of Doom: A Guide to a most unlikely tank and Mechanism of Mass Destruction (Warning: GMs will hate you)

[wakedown]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

... using a class/race ability and feats instead of a magic item or 2 you will still be mastering your own body instead of some other.

Going from a paladin walking the earth fighting with your fists to one day facing all your toughest challenges as a songbird because you went out and purchased a ring is one thing.

For a kitsune paladin to essentially abandon his/her true form every single time (or 9 of 10 times, etc) when life tosses the biggest challenges at them (like a BBEG fight)... it's still taking copious steps away from what Irori would want of you.

I would just say to be very careful going the path of animal form as a paladin of Irori - eventually you'll come across a GM that really cracks down on adhering to certain tenets. I don't think most GMs would take any issue of a paladin of Shelyn tackling the world in songbird form, or a paladin of Daikitsu (if it were allowed) tackling the world in fox form.

That's why I suggest considering a build that doesn't involve paladin of Irori... it comes with all the usual sorts of paladin baggage which will see a lot of table variation in how it should be interpretted.

[Imbicatus]

There is no "true form" for a kitsune. Human/fox/hybrid is all the same being. I see no conflict with a kitsune Irorian Paladin using their natural shapeshifting as part of their personal quest for self-perfection, as that shapeshifting is part of their very being.

[LoneKnave]

I don't think you get it Imbicatus.

Paladins. Must. Fall.

It doesn't matter how stupid your reason is, if you're a DM, and the paladin didn't fall by the 3rd session, you are doing it wrong and obviously don't understand how this game works.

[Scott Wilhelm]

wakedown wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

... using a class/race ability and feats instead of a magic item or 2 you will still be mastering your own body instead of some other.

Going from a paladin walking the earth fighting with your fists to one day facing all your toughest challenges as a songbird because you went out and purchased a ring is one thing.

For a kitsune paladin to essentially abandon his/her true form every single time (or 9 of 10 times, etc) when life tosses the biggest challenges at them (like a BBEG fight)... it's still taking copious steps away from what Irori would want of you.

I would just say to be very careful going the path of animal form as a paladin of Irori - eventually you'll come across a GM that really cracks down on adhering to certain tenets. I don't think most GMs would take any issue of a paladin of Shelyn tackling the world in songbird form, or a paladin of Daikitsu (if it were allowed) tackling the world in fox form.

That's why I suggest considering a build that doesn't involve paladin of Irori... it comes with all the usual sorts of paladin baggage which will see a lot of table variation in how it should be interpretted.

I think you are roleplaying Irori a little too narrowly. I think that playing a shapechanging race or a Druid with Wildshape, and exploring your other shapes as a character does not fall you out of graces with Irori, according to what I've been reading about him on the internet. Taking different forms and directly exploring different lifestyles of different creatures seems like a perfectly legitimate path to enlightenment and self-perfection, and if that's the way a PC is playing it, it is bad DMing to ramrod one's dogma down his throat. Gods are broad-minded, even if the religious aren't.

And what makes you think it is an easier life to be a bird or fox? Sure birds can fly, but people can build houses and move into them and get out of the rain. Actually, there aren't too many animals I'd rather be than a human as far as quality of life goes. Maybe a meerkat.

But even so, it's not clear to me that being either a Paladin or a worshiper of Irori is imoprtant to the OP's build, although levels in Paladin certainly add. The Smite Evil thing, like Pirhana Strike and Risky Striker does not scale down with size, so it's a fine way to get lots of damage, and both Smite and Panache are Charisma based, so there's synergy there.

[Flaming Duck]

Inner Sea Gods page 85 wrote:

Irori knows that there’s no single technique that works for everyone, and that every student must experiment and practice to find the best method for her.

That particular book goes out of its way to say that Irori is about the many paths to self perfection. I'm fairly sure (as much as I can be about a fictional god!) that Irori is not gonna lose his s#!% about the crazy murder bird.

And cool beans about using Wild Shape. I never play druids, and do not consider their abilities when building characters. I should probably change that.

[Delnoro82]

Don't you need Feral Combat Training to apply the Style Feats to your Natural Attacks?

[wakedown]

Flaming Duck wrote:

That particular book goes out of its way to say that Irori is about the many paths to self perfection.

That's exactly it... many paths... not "pop into murder bird form with my magic ring every time danger is present and initiative is rolled"!

[Broken Zenith]

Let's not make this a paladin thread.

Have we calculated the level 12 attack routine yet? What he is attacking at and what types of damage he is dealing for each circumstance? I would be curious to see the DPR.

[Breq of Toren]

Broken Zenith wrote:

Let's not make this a paladin thread.

Have we calculated the level 12 attack routine yet? What he is attacking at and what types of damage he is dealing for each circumstance? I would be curious to see the DPR.

So here is an attack routine at level 12. So after some thought I would sub out outflank for Combat Style Master granting Snake style up constantly.

This attack routine is assuming that the swashbuckler scarf granting +5ft reach was activated prior to combat. An ideal scenario is envisioned with the enemy being 5ft away to start the round. This does not include sneak attack damage or flanking bonuses.

Step 1: Swift Action activate Monkey Style.
Step 2: 5ft into enemy square.
Step 3: Enemy takes AOO, misses.
Step 4: Use snake fang to make retaliatory strike (cannot make second retaliatory strike because swift action used)
+23 to hit, damage=1d3 + 24 + 1d6 acid (Delisquent gloves) = 28 damage
(Fury born counter raised to 1)
Step 5:
Unarmed strikes:
Attack 1:
+28 to hit, damage=1d3 + 25 + 1d6 acid = 29 damage
(Fury born counter raised to 2)
Attack 2:
+24 to hit, damage=1d3 + 26 + 1d6 acid = 30 damage
(Fury born counter raised to 3)
Attack 3:
+21 to hit, damage=1d3 + 27 + 1d6 acid = 31 damage
(Fury born counter raised to 4)
Bite:
+24 to hit, damage=1d3 + 18 = 20 damage
(Fury born counter raised to 5)
Claw 1:
+25 to hit, damage=1d3 +19= 21 damage
Claw 2:
+25 to hit, damage=1d3 +19= 21 damage

Total round 1 damage: 180
If you are able to apply sneak attack damage add another 7d6 damage for an average of 25, so 205 DPR. If this is your second opponent of the combat and you don't have to waste an action activating monkey style, add another 33 points of damage for a total of 238.

Should the enemy survive this, on the very first attack against the bird the enemy makes that misses, the following will occur:
AOO unarmed strike +32 to hit, 1d3 + 29 +1d6 acid = 33 damage
If AOO hits, then spend immediate action to make second AOO
+27 to hit, 1d3 + 29 + 1d6 acid= 33 damage

In between 1st and second round possible retribution damage on first strike 66 damage, +33 damage for each additional missed attack. On second round, damage will be higher as you will be attacking with an effective +5 weapon the entire round.

[Helikon]

Sorry but how do you add more attacts to claw, claw, bite?

[Breq of Toren]

Helikon wrote:

Sorry but how do you add more attacts to claw, claw, bite?

Take your normal 3 weapon attacks using unarmed strike, then use natural weapons as secondary natural weapons at a -5 penalty.

Quote:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

[chkflip]

Why isn't the 1d6 acid damage applied to the claw attacks? I thought the gloves applied that damage no matter what.

[chkflip]

Oh duh the claws are your feet.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Breq of Toren wrote:

Helikon wrote:

Sorry but how do you add more attacts to claw, claw, bite?

Take your normal 3 weapon attacks using unarmed strike, then use natural weapons as secondary natural weapons at a -5 penalty.

Quote:

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

You don't take a -5. Your Monk Unarmed Strikes count as Natural Weapons, too.

Monk wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

i'm so confused about mixing unarmed strikes and natural attacks...

can someone summarize:

A) how weapon and natural attacks work for non-monks (pretty sure that one is iterative with weapon + natural attacks at minus 5)

B) how unarmed strikes and natural attacks work for non-monks

C) how unarmed strikes and natural attacks work for monks

[Ian Bell]

You know, I'm all for short cuts when they make the game simpler but... using the stats for an enormous bird like a raven for a songbird is a pretty dang big short cut.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Most of the time, unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons, or sort of count as nothing and get the worst of all worlds, like a person without a country.

But Monks and now Brawlers have this special clause I just quoted above, so their unarmed strikes count as either or both to their advantage. It doesn't change the action economy: you don't get to use Flurry of Blows and then your Natural strikes. The fact that you can make an unarmed strike with your fists, your feet, your elbows, and your head, maybe doesn't suddenly give you a half-dozen extra attacks. The number of Unarmed strikes you get is still dictated by your BAB. But the description of the ability is clear. Suffering or being spared a -5 penalty is an effect that is caused by your taking Improved Unarmed Strike by taking a level in Monk or Brawler instead of as a Fighter Bonus Combat Feat.

That being said, my position is intensely disliked by a lot contributors to these forums, and you can expect this thread soon to be spammed by a crowd of online bullies who will attempt to derail the thread with no regard to honest nor civil discourse. It has happened before, and this wouldn't be the first thread that the moderators will have shut down because of their poor behavior regarding this very topic.

In any event, it will be your DM who renders the interpretation of his campaign. Word-for-word interpretations of the Rules as Written are really only relevant for PFS play.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Ian Bell wrote:

You know, I'm all for short cuts when they make the game simpler but... using the stats for an enormous bird like a raven for a songbird is a pretty dang big short cut.

Funny you should mention that. Earlier on this thread, I suggested you might use the Tengu Feat to change into a raven instead of the magic item to change into a songbird. I was mistaken. It turns out that Tengu Raven is a Large animal. It's still a pretty cool variant on the OP's build, with a different package of advantages and disadvantages. And it's a really cool idea in its own way.

But it's not the same thing.

[Scott Wilhelm]

chkflip wrote:

Oh duh the claws are your feet.

I think technically claws on your feet are in fact Talons, and that is a different natural attack.

I don't want to be nitpicky with you, but sometimes that is an important distinction.

[TOZ]

See, this thread has me really wanting a banner ad with the "GMs hate him" tag like all those stupid "Trainers HATE him for sharing this secret trick" popups.

[Arcwin]

I've seen you cite a few magic items during the discussions, but could you post the full list at 12th level? The ones that are part of the build... not just random disposables?

[Cevah]

Flaming Duck wrote:

Inner Sea Gods page 85 wrote:

Irori knows that there’s no single technique that works for everyone, and that every student must experiment and practice to find the best method for her.

That particular book goes out of its way to say that Irori is about the many paths to self perfection. I'm fairly sure (as much as I can be about a fictional god!) that Irori is not gonna lose his s#!% about the crazy murder bird.

And cool beans about using Wild Shape. I never play druids, and do not consider their abilities when building characters. I should probably change that.

Consider the RP potential of having your converts say "... a little birdie told me."

/cevah

[Taenia]

Unfortunately the Aspect of the Beast for claws doesn't work, there is a huge difference between having grown claws as granted by Aspect or growing claws.

Other than that its a great build, did something similar a year back with a druid 6 monk 2 Bat Shaman doing flurrys for 3 x 1d3 + 21 + 1d6 acid with risky striker/piranha strike. Escape artist was very important to get out of those damn grapples though.

As for Irori, I have a grippli monk that has decided that his path to enlightenment is at the bottom of his Everflowing Sake bottle, it will be a long road to perfection.

[BigNorseWolf]

can someone break down the +23 and +21 static damages? Not sure how its getting that high

[chkflip]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

chkflip wrote:

Oh duh the claws are your feet.

I think technically claws on your feet are in fact Talons, and that is a different natural attack.

I don't want to be nitpicky with you, but sometimes that is an important distinction.

The OP posted five or six posts above that using "claw" so I assumed he meant the bird's hands. But then after I posted I immediately realized "Oh f*$$, I'm an idiot, birds don't have hands" and said the quoted above.

But I mean, sure, you're right. Birds have talons.

I'm glad we could have this talk.

Back on topic: this build is insane. Whether this GM thinks it'd work flavor-wise or that GM thinks blahblahblah is neither here nor there. You found a way to streamline a lot of different abilities into something incredible. Hats off.

[Taenia]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

can someone break down the +23 and +21 static damages? Not sure how its getting that high

In my case it was level 8 character

Dex of 22 base (halfling, 2 lvl adj, +1 boon, 19 start)
+4 Dex Item
+6 dex from Wild Shape Bat (dimunitive creature)
agile amulet of mighty fists give you dex to damage

Total Dex 32, +11 damage

Cast Gr. Magic Fang on unarmed strike at +2 for 8 hours (6 lvl Druid, magical knack trait, rod of extend, lesser)

Total +13 damage

Piranha Strike -2 to hit, + 4 damage, feat
Risky Striker -1 to AC, + 4 damage, feat

+21 damage,

+1d6 acid from deliquescent gloves

1d2 base monk damage for a diminutive creature

Gives you +19/+19/+14 (BAB +6, -2 flurry, -2 piranha strike +2 GMF + 11 dex + 4 size) 1d2 + 21 + 1d6 (acid).

At level 10 the damage goes up to +25 with a BAB of 8 (w/flurry) upgrading the feats.

The OP build has the advantage of higher BAB allowing Piranha Strike/Risky Striker to advance faster. So at level 12 he will be getting +6/+6 from those feats plus stacking up Furyborn effect (which people have argued doesn't work but I believe it does)

It is so funny rolling a d2 and saying 22 damage.

[Taenia]

Another fun build you can do with the ring:

Urban Barbarian 2, Claw Rage Power
Fighter 2
Berserker of the Society Trait

Weapon Finesse, Risky Striker (B), Piranha Strike (B), Extra Rage

Ring of Seven Lovely Colors and Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists

Assume Dex 20 at lvl 4, 14 Con 14 Wis 9 Cha.

Rage +4 Dex and claws 18 rounds per day (4 + Con base, 2 from lvl 2 barb, 3 from trait, 6 from feat, 1 from barbarian chew)

Claw/Claw/Bite + 13/+13/+13 to hit (+4 Bab + 9 Dex + 2 Size - 2 piranha strike (-1 AC from Risky Striker))

Damage is 1d3 + 17 (+ 9 dex, +4 piranha strike, +4 risky striker)

AC is 22 (Base 10, + 9 dex +2 size + 1 natural armor - 1 risky striker +1 deflection from ring) can have a wizard drop mage armor on you for more. A level of martial artist monk would pump your ac by 3 (2 from wis, 1 from dodge feat)

[DungeonMastering.com]

If I was an NPC that got killed by a Songbird, I wouldn't want to be resurrected. On account of how much crow I'd have to eat.

[Petty Alchemy]

Roan wrote:

Very click-bait title.

I love it.

Precisely what I came here to post.

That said, I'm also interested in a version that isn't magic item reliant.

[Imbicatus]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

That said, I'm also interested in a version that isn't magic item reliant.

Kitsune is the easy way. Druid or anything else with easy access to polymorh spells is the hard way.

[Lamontius]

this thread is inspiring
almost singlehandedly got me back in the (hero)lab to create once again after a long drought

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

[Scott Wilhelm]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

All creatures can make unarmed strikes, pretty much. Most don't bother, because it provokes Attacks of Opportunity and imposes -5s on your Natural Attack, if any.

Unless not.

[Imbicatus]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

Any creature can make an unarmed strike even if it has natural weapons. Do you have cats? Have you ever had one bat you with it's paws without the claws extended? I have.

[Aleron]

The clickbait title got me to read this through. The build amuses me a great deal. Kudos!

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Imbicatus wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

Any creature can make an unarmed strike even if it has natural weapons. Do you have cats? Have you ever had one bat you with it's paws without the claws extended? I have.

I'm 80% in agreement with you... I'm just wondering if there's a rule somewhere saying that sharks can't nudge you gently with their fins...

[Purple Dragon Knight]

(yes, I know dolphins' headbutts are more lethal than their bite attack, in real life, but everyone pretty much knows they are all sentient 20th level monks...)

[Arcwin]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

Remember that unarmed strikes can be done not just with hands and feet, but also knees and elbows. Even beasties with claws/talons/etc. have at least one of those. Usually both.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

Any creature can make an unarmed strike even if it has natural weapons. Do you have cats? Have you ever had one bat you with it's paws without the claws extended? I have.

I'm 80% in agreement with you... I'm just wondering if there's a rule somewhere saying that sharks can't nudge you gently with their fins...

My cat made an unarmed strike against me by jumping up on the couch and headbutting my elbow. This provoked and attack of opportunity from me, and I scratched her behind the ears.

[Arcwin]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

Any creature can make an unarmed strike even if it has natural weapons. Do you have cats? Have you ever had one bat you with it's paws without the claws extended? I have.

I'm 80% in agreement with you... I'm just wondering if there's a rule somewhere saying that sharks can't nudge you gently with their fins...

My cat made an unarmed strike against me by jumping up on the couch and headbutting my elbow. This provoked and attack of opportunity from me, and I scratched her behind the ears.

Be glad she wasn't making climb checks on your legs, like my cats are fond of. :)

[Charender]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

Any creature can make an unarmed strike even if it has natural weapons. Do you have cats? Have you ever had one bat you with it's paws without the claws extended? I have.

I'm 80% in agreement with you... I'm just wondering if there's a rule somewhere saying that sharks can't nudge you gently with their fins...

My cat made an unarmed strike against me by jumping up on the couch and headbutting my elbow. This provoked and attack of opportunity from me, and I scratched her behind the ears.

Maybe not a fin nudge, but what about a tail slap.

A great white shark with improved unarmed could in theory tail slap(unarmed strike) at a +10 to hit for 1d6(huge unarmed) + 7 damage. That seems about right for a huge muscular shark slapping you with its tail. Oddly enough there seems to be an error in the GWS stat block, it seems like their normal to hit would be +3(BAB) +7(strength) +1(focus) = +11, not +9. That said, the bite would then be at a +6 for 2d10 + 3, so the damage gain from the tail slap is more that made up for by the loss of damage on the bite attack which goes from a strength and a half to damage primary attack to a half strength to damage secondary.

[Charender]

As to the OP, is there any way to work some bardic music in there. The thought of a mockingbird singing and adding to the already ridiculous amount of damage is just too hilarious to pass up.

[Imbicatus]

Charender wrote:

As to the OP, is there any way to work some bardic music in there. The thought of a mockingbird singing and adding to the already ridiculous amount of damage is just too hilarious to pass up.

You could swap the MoMS for Sensei. The build has too much multiclassing to get much out of it though.

[Aelryinth]

Huh. Have to say, Risky striker is an imbalanced version of a pOwer attack feat.

1) It shouldn't stack with Power Attack and'
2) The AC penalty should increase with the damage penalty.

In combination with Expertise, you can effectively take -1 To hit and end up with +12 damage, no AC penalty. That's seriously better then Power attack...and only halflings can take it?

At my table, I'd rule 1 and 2 apply, just to prevent this kind of stacking abuse. Basically giving up your SMall size AC bonus for a Full one handed power attack bonus...not balanced.

Note that the closest equivalent feat otherwise is Big Game Hunter, which is +1 th, +2 dmg against size L or bigger stuff. This is seriously stronger then that, and better then a Power Attack of the same size due to the lesser penalty.

This kind of build is also why I seriously dislike dex to damage feats, and shows just how you SAD Dex to create a character that just makes me roll my eyes.

==Aelryinth

[Lemartes]

Impressive.

That being said I doubt I'd allow it at my table namely because I think it would interfer with fun for everyone else playing.

[Aelryinth]

Yeah, the idea that the smaller something gets, the more damage it does in melee just doesn't sit well with me.

==Aelryinth

[Imbicatus]

Aelryinth wrote:

Yeah, the idea that the smaller something gets, the more damage it does in melee just doesn't sit well with me.

==Aelryinth

Really? It's a classic trope of the genre.

[Oli Ironbar]

I would suggest something like this for a mini:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.boardgamer.ie/345-thickbox_d efault/munchkin-deluxe.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.boardgamer.ie/25-munchk in-deluxe.html&h=600&w=600&tbnid=5Sm-84fJQyWeNM:&zoom=1& ;docid=QytKJchjMN7wsM&ei=cajnVNqJAYi6yQSbloH4Bg&tbm=isch&ved=0C AgQMygAMAA4ZA

Also, swordmaster's flair (blue scarf) is a great item for panache character with snake style:

Blue Scarf: The user can spend 1 panache point as a swift action to increase her melee reach with light or one-handed piercing weapons by 5 feet for 1 minute.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Arcwin wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Q: if a human has no natural attacks but can make an unarmed strike, can a creature with natural attacks make an unarmed strike? isn't such a creature never "unarmed" in the sense of the word? or is "unarmed strike" a type of weapon available to ALL creatures regardless of their shape or form. I'm thinking hummingbirds and say a sentient ooze creature or a golem made entirely of sharp blades, for example... some of these don't seem to have the capacity to make an unarmed attack either due to extreme feathery softness or extreme lethal nature...

Any creature can make an unarmed strike even if it has natural weapons. Do you have cats? Have you ever had one bat you with it's paws without the claws extended? I have.

I'm 80% in agreement with you... I'm just wondering if there's a rule somewhere saying that sharks can't nudge you gently with their fins...

My cat made an unarmed strike against me by jumping up on the couch and headbutting my elbow. This provoked and attack of opportunity from me, and I scratched her behind the ears.

Be glad she wasn't making climb checks on your legs, like my cats are fond of. :)

Her next move was to climb onto my lap and attempt a Grapple. I used my Quick Draw Feat and drew my comb. I took one more attack of opportunity, and she fell under my comb, purring.

[Imbicatus]

Oli Ironbar wrote:

I would suggest something like this for a mini:

Fixed awful link