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***** Venture-Agent, Idaho—Moscow 138 posts (217 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. 2 wishlists. 24 Organized Play characters. 2 aliases.


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As an aside: I'm not seeing anything on threatening the second diagonal. Has the 5-foot teleport returned?

Appreciate the responses!

I removed all wording about Proficiency returning it to cavalier default.

On the Dragon Dive:
First of all, yeah, the language could always be tightened up!

It should be noted that I took the baseline for how effective this archetype should be from a cavalier that had the feats Ride-by Attack, Wheeling Charge, and Spirited Charge. Because all cavaliers that charge have those feats (they do!). Since the Dragon Knight is unmounted, I had to bake those in somewhere so it could stay competitive. Hence the wording in the 3rd and 6th levels of Dragon Dive, and the 2nd level order ability are variants of those feats. You can do similar with spring attack wording, but I figured I'd keep it as standardized as I could.

The Dragon Dive / Dragon Jump / Jump Attack is the bread and butter of a Final Fantasy Dragoon, so my philosophy was to make their signature move accessible. AND I desperately want to avoid the schlock that is Branch Pounce. So I'm reticent to place mechanics that require high ground or set DC's. If I require high ground, I'm denying access to the signature move...which is most of the time in practice. There are a lot of low ceilings in the game. If I require an acrobatics DC, it is relatively easy to find a way to blow it out of the water and then you either gain a scaling bonus above the DC or, if it's set, why make it at all if it's automatic success? Ultimately I removed that wording from Dragon Dive entirely and simply declared that it's "acrobatic yadda yadda" opening up the idea of the Dragon Knight leaping horizontally, or off ceilings.

As you point out, the original Cavalier's Charge does grant a bonus of +4 when charging which got left out of my document, so I can add it back in.

Finally, thanks specifically to Cyrad for that effort! The idea of Impaling Critical is interesting. I admit I'm not sure how valuable the current 18th level ability is, so I'll keep that as a possibility.

Keep it coming guys, critiques and counterarguments!

Lazaryus wrote:
I'm assuming that you lose proficiency with shields. Also add an ability so that lances deal mounted charge damage when you charge, maybe even automatically confirm critical threats made with lances.

Shields: I can add that line back in. I don't see many people using shields, but several spear weapons will allow the option. Not sure if it's a net gain or not.

Lance damage: I had a line about lances doing triple damage in the Order section (trying to keep good formatting so it is still viable to take the Archetype without the Order and vice-versa). I took it out because every Dragon Knight would use a lance, just like every charging cavalier uses a lance and spirited charge. Damage vs. vanilla cavalier does drop off significantly without it, though, so I'll tack it back on. Right now, it's happens at level 9. I reckon that most Cavs take spirited charge between 5 and 7 depending on race, so that should be fine. I also kept it as tripling for the entire spear group on a charge since the weapon group is pretty tame. It does open some interesting options for Charging Hurlers. That may or may not bite me.

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I'm not the first to take a stab at making a Final Fantasy styled dragoon, but I figured I'd try it.

Dragon Knight

Please take a look!

Balancer wrote:
As a hypothetical scenario, what would happen?

Phantoms are Outsiders. So, nothing.

Bump. Am I over thinking this?

Specifically, can a phantom and spiritualist communicate while the phantom is within the spiritualist's consciousness? For instance, if the phantom has ranks in a knowledge skill and the spiritualist does not, does the phantom need to be physically manifested to make a skill check?

It is a shared consciousness, is it not?

Won't help with the price problem, but you might try Spellscar Drifter. Challenge will help a great deal with damage, and the class does have some face skills and is very cowboy.

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I, for one, really enjoyed playing Pathfinder Society Scenario 6-04: Bacon Below.

Mavrickindigo wrote:

I really like the idea of having a magical girl-based class, but really the thing has nothing to do with the magical girl genre. I would love to see a different archetype that is more thematically similar. The Summoner's spell list doesn't really make sense, as magical girls don't really summon things, in general. Most of their abilities come from implements they use, or elements or themes that they represent. I can't really think of a magical girl that uses their animal familiar as a combatant or summons creatures and stuff.

EDIT: I know I could just homebrew it, but I'd love to have something official.

I think a lot of us are confused as to how this became a pet class. I figured they were always more martial than that. Granted, I do not watch many things that qualify as magical-child genre. Outside homebrewing, the solution is just to dip one level and the go do something else.

Which means you lose a lot of vigilante goodness, but whatever.

Ditto for most of Zerri. It seems to me that the form of the familiar just changes, but you never gain Improved Familiar as the feat. Considering that the familiar eventually gets the change shape universal ability, it feels intentional, if unusual. Given that Animal Guide replaces the entire vigilante specialization and denies access to two-thirds of the talents, having an improved familiar with a familiar archetype is not completely out of left field.

Also, I'm no expert on magical children in pop and anime, but I never envisioned them to be a pet class. Faq'd anyhoo.

Vetala Vampire. Just have the Vetala nearby or locked into a tomb and it can spam Possess Corpse.

There are feats like Quick Reposition that allow for maneuvers to be used in place of attacks. Additionally, given that the Dimensional Agility line calls out monks, it is expected that there are a number of options/archetypes for monks to use combat maneuvers in a more economic fashion.

The dragoon was mine. To clarify a few points:

As Cheetah's Sprint does indeed only benefit from a run or charge; the whole Dragoon thing has a two round spool time, and requires a high or absent ceiling.

The Metamagic Rager archetype should be used. On round two you need to charge downward to make Branch Pounce function. If your initial jump is higher than your round two movement, your target may be outside your charge range. Ergo, get Extend metamagic on Cheetah's Sprint to make it last two rounds and maintain a charge lane of up to 700 feet.

A reach weapon and/or Lunge is desirable. Not only is it fashionable for a "dragoon" and works out with the Akitonian Blade, but since you will eat AoO's coming down on larger targets (which will have a higher than average frequency encountered outdoors), reach tactics will help you hit first...although you still land adjacent to the critter and likely eat an AoO anyway if it's not dead.

Note that I have yet to actually use this tactic inside a PFS scenario proper. All the scenarios I seem to play on that character are indoors and full of EXTREME BOOKKEEPING!!!

4/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, Idaho—Moscow aka Flaming Duck

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4–03: The Golemworks Incident is also super creepy.

Doh, I totally forgot about haste being active. When Ed jumped, the result was 12 higher. I'm not sure how I forgot, because Ember only cast it a month ago!

Ed will be closer to the console.

I may have Saturday open before 9. Maybe. I will know my Sunday schedule tomorrow.


If a character is airwalking and wants to gain / lose altitude, can they jump and "land" on the air? Or jump out of the air to the ground, as a counter?

It seems to me that if it is possible to jump on the air, then you should be able to climb higher with a series of "bunny hops" upward. On one hand, jumping is separate from airwalking, so is not limited to the 45 degree angle, but that somewhat subverts the first paragraph of the spell. Ergo, can you jump on air?


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Scott is at GenCon. Guess that didn't go out to all!


The portal exploded. It's a temporal bomb. We are stuck forever in Limbo.

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For 1d120+115, that's actually a really low Sense Motive, lol.

Aye, I was more worried about shutting down portals in the midst of combat. Right now, Tig is a non-combat, but as soon as we start repairing something he becomes one. I figured we'd take out JZ first, and then I'd do something about the portal. Think that'll be too late?

I was hoping one of the Mephits would suddenly explode due to our sudden 4 player adjust. Or remember it forgot to vote and run out of the room. I would love to see that in game... :)

Works okay, but still making me paranoid! The only way to save humanity from themselves is to KILL HUMANITY so they will stop killing each other! It's FOOLPROOF!

Wow, just saw the picture of the new guy. BADASS!

That's what I meant. I can't see us disabling portals in combat, so if we all take a moment to position ourselves and before resuming, maybe we can mob Tig-0 into scrap before he does much of anything. As long as we don't actually attack or fix a portal we are paused, apparently.

Ed and Pinpi were both intent on hitting themselves with wands, but that is over multiple rounds, so are we in pseudo-rounds?

Fine and dandy. Really!

What is everyone's opinion on what to do next? If the scenario works against a non-violent resolution, we can just line up and murder hobo the robo. Murder robo the hobo.

It's a robot - generally not known for their free will in the first place.

I guess I could also spam Charm Monster until it sticks, and then just use the opposed charisma check to shut the robot up. I still have my reroll, just in case, and it'd avoid delving into table variance too much.

Or we could just murder hobo the robot. Because murder hobo is the way of the pathfinder.

What does everyone else want to do?

It is no purpose. You've nerfed it because it prolongs combat without actually altering anything. We can buff more, and that's about it. I can try more suggestions like Kro proposes but ultimately if the GM hates mind controlling effects, then Ed is screwed a bit :(

I can also try suggesting Tig go dismantle the Azers, or wait in the anteroom for 30 minutes, but am still wasting spells on things the GM is apparently gonna nerf if it's not a "reasonable suggestion"...

The other point, if you demand that Alchemists use two hands for one of their keystone and primary abilities, is you are essentially saying that alchemists cannot be armed except for natural attacks or armor spikes (which they aren't even proficient in!) and meanwhile, wizards can wield daggers and quarterstaff while casting fireball. Supernatural abilities are more like spells than weapons :)

If your imagination cannot wrap your head around it still, consider as an example:

I flavor my alchemist, Hein, as making his bombs from clay-like or putty-like chemicals - he's grenadier after all, why not use C4? So one hand comes off his crossbow and dips into his munitions pouch (so selecting the type of bomb), and then quickly scoops up a bit of primer from another pouch and mashes them together with the liquid catalyst. I can see that happening in 3 seconds with only one hand :). Pinpi, of course, may use completely different alchemical ingredients, but the mechanics will be the same at a per-round basis :).

Alchemy is a Supernatural ability and only requires a single hand. I don't have the ruling off-hand, but it acts more like spell casting in this instance - that is, it is not a weapon. Think of it like a weapon-like spell, such as scorching ray. You can use scorching ray in a grapple, albeit with a concentration check, and STILL get to make the ranged touch attack that might provoke. Bombs are supernatural, but still provoke (per their description), if Tig-0 threatens while grappling, but don't require a concentration check since they are supernatural.

Short answer, bombs are weapon-like supernaturals, not weapons.

Me likes the natural 1. Me likes a lot. When I'm not rolling it.

Can we rename him Ultron?

As initiative was rolled, what was the states of the portals?

They might have since we picked some up. I don't remember who was holding the leftovers from the closet. Ed will just forgo using her Blackberry for the remainder of the scenario duration, just to be safe.

VTPbP wrote:
"Note about the map. Tig-0 is 15 ft. up. I used a transparent square to show the location. Cap & rogers are working on their respective portals when this happens, so I moved icons back to them.. "

Did you mean Ed and Pinpi, by the way?

4d6 ⇒ (6, 6, 1, 2) = 15 damage to creatures with the fire subtype: Reflex DC 15 for half.

Sorry...I guess I just saw the relfex for half and forgot the first part!

Also, does it strike anyone as ominous that the robot ally just attempted to execute Order 66? Who's the good guy here?

Does anyone think I should mind control Tig-0? It's really the problem child here.

Did Ein know if these ladies are outsiders or humanoids? That might affect which charm spell I'm about to use...

I'll be damned. Nice catch!

Who wants what? We got a flashbang, 2 cold grenades, and a forcefield. Also, a mighty mighty flashlight. Forcefield probably to Ryan or Tim. Abel and Dobbins are both good at ranged.

You know, Ed is keeping the flashlight. Too strong for the rest of you.

Edit: Is this a hands free flashlight? Can I clip it to my belt? Tech guide doesn't say. Does Pinpi have any glue?

I'm fine with GM rolling initiative, though I would probably take advantage of situations where I can get off Charm Monster before combat starts :), at least against single opponents.

Edward has a +17 or something UMD, for the wand. If Cap does not need endure elements, we should be fine, since it doesn't matter so much if Ed is fatigued, and everyone else is covered.

I was considering a wand of endure elements, but considering that three of us have native fire resistance, and Abel has resist energy, we should be fine.

How often are we actually supposed to post outside of combat?

Combat Maneuvers are opposed by CMD. So a big strong fighter may easily oppose your sustained bull rush, but a Will Save? Forget about it. Also, violent thrust gets a lot more range (10 ft per level). Since Bull Rush only moves the target 5 ft +5 per point above CMD, you'd need 90+CMD to get the same result with a combat maneuver at minimum caster level.

If you are asking why a magic spell functions in the ontologic a priest, maybe?

Cuuniyevo wrote:
Gisher is correct that Ultimate Equipment says Whips cannot be used two-handed, but PapaZorro is also correct that the Core Rulebook does NOT specify that. This leads to a fairly amusing situation in PFS, where you are only allowed to use rules that you have the books for. Therefore, if you showed up to play at a PFS table that didn't have access to Ultimate Equipment (the GM will almost definitely have it, though, so you're probably out of luck), you could indeed insist on your GM allowing you to use your whip two-handed.

So apparently in PFS Core it is acceptable to two-hand a whip!

Yeah, those rules are something I'd be comfortable with - my character was for PFS, so there was an ongoing discussion with local GM's to find an agreeable ruleset. For a home game, I would do a few edits to the archetype!

About the touch spells - I don't argue that you can discharge a touch spell with a natural attack. My example was in reference to spells like Frostbite and Chill Touch, which offer multiple touches per caster level. If you have the spell active you would attack with the hair, damage and discharge, grapple, and then make another touch attack for your iterative attacks. Grappling with Frostbite active would not automatically discharge multiple touches simultaneously, if only for the sake of game balance!

'Tis a strange archetype, indeed, but one of my favorite classes to play. Goofy wording aside, I play it so:

1) Intelligence will not contribute to attack, only to damage and CMB for grapple. At high levels it is sometimes better to straight-up grapple an opponent because the bonus will be increments higher that your to-hit bonus. And you only get 1x Int to damage, because that's what it specifies.

Preface the following: when you make a successful grapple check, move the creature adjacent to you if it wasn't already before.

2) In theory, yes, you could attack with your hair, free action grapple the opponent, and then take an attack with a weapon. However, because of the rules of how natural attacks and manufactured weapons work together, it is your hair that is the secondary some planning may be required in your rolls.
2a) A strong alternative would be to have a touch spell active. Since you will not gain the grappled condition, you grapple, pull adjacent, and then make a touch attack (a natural attack).

3) Pathfinder generally assigns "limbs" to attacks. I'd say your hair is "one limb", especially if you are grappling with it, so you wouldn't be able to make AoO's with the hair.

4) Yeah, see the grappled rules. If you successfully grapple, the creature is pulled adjacent to you. The only reason you would use "Pull" is if you chose to not grapple. And considering the goofy wording in that you don't get to add intelligence to your CMB to Pull, I'd stick with grappling, it's boss anyway.

5) Hair does Bludgeoning damage unless you have the feat Weapon Versatility. Not a rule, per se, but it's most like a Slam, so that's the analogue I'm going with.

Hope that helps a bit!

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