It seems to me that every time I attempt to make a character with the new Brawler class from the Advanced Class Guide, it comes out strictly inferior to the monk, which generally has more relevant-to-level abilities, possesses much better defense abilities and values, and has more options to choose from.
Has anyone here been able to make a good brawler that wasn't totally outclassed by a monk of similar build? If so, how did you manage it?
Well, ignoring the fact that it is a beautiful dip for a TWF character (since you can flurry with a single weapon, even if the options are a bit limited; cheaper enhancement), it seems serviceable enough.
Fairly good AC without heavy reliance on magic or stats is obviously a draw. You get the scaling AC bonus, and you are able to wear light armor of mithral medium armor. So you don't have to go with the high dex/wis turtles you often see.
Martial flexibility has a lot of use (take advantage of those situational feats you never take since they are not common enough events).
I will admit- a good sohei is probably better than the base brawler in terms of damage, particularly as a pummeling build. They are fairly even if you look at a mutagenic mauler.
Ive found the brawler being able to more consistently contribute to encounters in a non-specialized way where in a similar circumstance the monk would be over-specialized. When the party needs to deal damage the brawler can step in and do damage, the monk in a similar circumstance can have some difficulty landing hits. In one game I observed I saw a brawler switch around his feats very intelligently to trip, grapple and pin a rather dangerous foe, a Monk at that level would not have had the feats required to do all of that in such a short amount of time. Dont discount the martial flexibility ability as a "mere extra feat", it can be THE feat you need to pull of a stunt otherwise impossible.
Full BaB and d10 hp can really make a difference too. I find that the brawler is the ultimate jack-of all trades. The class has stuff like AC bonuses and flurry, but dont be afraid to abandon those to just greataxe someone in the face.
Have you taken the brawler into a game yet? Working out the math only tells you so much about a build, there is litle merit to discussing a class that you havent tried in action yet.
I haven't tried this myself, but check out the Brawler guide (only one I know of so far). Be sure you check out the Archetypes section even if you aren't planning to use anything other than vanilla Brawler -- the Captain America picture in there is just way too funny.
Minor thread jack here, so forgive me in advance...
Has anyone here been able to make a good brawler that wasn't totally outclassed by a monk of similar build? If so, how did you manage it?
As someone who hasn't played around with the Brawler, the above quote confuses me... For years the (hyperbolic & overstated) position was that the monk was terrible. Many people suggested giving it full BAB as a (partial) solution.
So I guess my question is, what does the Monk have that the Brawler does not? Is it the archetypes? Is it Flurry of Blows? How many levels of Monk are you comparatively better builds taking? Do your findings (possibly opinions) have any implications for the full BAB Monk in Unchained? Just curious to hear your thoughts Ravingdork.
As someone who hasn't played around with the Brawler, the above quote confuses me... For years the (hyperbolic & overstated) position was that the monk was terrible. Many people suggested giving it full BAB as a (partial) solution.
So I guess my question is, what does the Monk have that the Brawler does not? Is it the archetypes? Is it Flurry of Blows? How many levels of Monk are you comparatively better builds taking? Do your findings (possibly opinions) have any implications for the full BAB Monk in Unchained? Just curious to hear your thoughts Ravingdork.
Survivability was a big one we've observed. In that regard the monk wins hands down.
So far my friends and I have made four and playtested one. In two cases, we converted existing monks to the brawler class, only to find that, mechanically speaking, they were patently inferior. On the plus side, one of those two conversions fit the character much better, thematically.
Since then I've attempted to build two unique brawlers and have given up each time due to dissatisfaction with the final apparent result. In both cases in order to use their chief ability well they needed to have a broad spectrum of base feats. Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, and Power Attack to name a few. Having these feats allowed a brawler of around 10th-level or so to get entire feat chains and dramatically change his role as needed to fit the situation. However, the numbers largely sucked then, because there was no real focus. Full base attack bonus will only take you so far if you don't have Greater Weapon Focus or rage or smite or something else to back it up.
And if you focus your feats on a single chain like that, then you get the numbers to be competitive, but you give up the versatility offered by your chief class ability. Either way, you end up being subpar in some way.
Even if you weren't subpar as a result, you can only switch out feat trees like what, three times per day? The whole "one feat uses up one of you daily uses" just kills it. The brawler ends up running out of steam long before most other martial characters do.
I realize that the standart of what is ok is different in different games. My brawler is not gonna be a built wonder but i am confident that he Will be able to stay relevant in his group( dex based kensai, brownfur transmuter and archer ranger) i am not gonna be the King of the place but with a good selection of maneuvers and a stable damage with pummeling style it Will be ok. I do t know if i will go with forth trick, grabble, trip or just the first of each but i Will be trying to fill the role of anvil in most figths and so far it goes ok.
I Think that any one plan for this char could be Filled better with a monk but the brawler seem to be able to do it all. And the brownfur transmuter is the Real Reason for my confidence:)
I love that guide, if only because my favorite Brawler Archetype, The Exemplar, features Mako Mankoshoku as the image.
Anyway, I really love going Cavalier > Exemplar > Battle Herald. It's just a fantastic way of entering Battle Herald without splashing into a caster, and ending up totally beefy for it.
|
I've got an awesome brawler in Iron Gods. Pummeling Style, incidentally, is an absolutely horrifying thing to behold now that we're 11th level, mostly because with Power Attack, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4 Belt of Giant's Strength, and our skald's rage song, she does a minimum of 20 damage per punch.
(And yes, our group has learned that Haste is a very wonderful thing. SIX ATTACKS~ that all resolve as one powerful punch!)
I've got an awesome brawler in Iron Gods. Pummeling Style, incidentally, is an absolutely horrifying thing to behold now that we're 11th level, mostly because with Power Attack, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4 Belt of Giant's Strength, and our skald's rage song, she does a minimum of 20 damage per punch.
(And yes, our group has learned that Haste is a very wonderful thing. SIX ATTACKS~ that all resolve as one powerful punch!)
That...sounds pretty low to me.
That...sounds pretty low to me.I've got an awesome brawler in Iron Gods. Pummeling Style, incidentally, is an absolutely horrifying thing to behold now that we're 11th level, mostly because with Power Attack, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4 Belt of Giant's Strength, and our skald's rage song, she does a minimum of 20 damage per punch.
(And yes, our group has learned that Haste is a very wonderful thing. SIX ATTACKS~ that all resolve as one powerful punch!)
Maybe he means for each of the 6 attacks, rather than the big pooled attack.
Unless I am bad with mid level scales of damage. a potential minimum of 120 if every 'hit' connects still sounds rather good though.
|
Here's my PFS brawler. Right now I just hit 5 but at level 4 I was charging at +12/+12 for 1d6+16 an attack. At 7 this will be +18/+18/+13 for 1d6+33. I'll be using a wand of contingent action to charge twice on the first round.
1 brawler Mutagenic Mauler feat imp init bfeat noble scion
2 brawler bfeat pummeling style
3 monk Kata master of many styles of the sacred mountain feat Dragon style,bfeat pummeling charge
4 monk bfeat Dragon Ferocity
5 bloodrager blood conduit feat weapon focus bfeat imp bull rush
6 cavalier Gendarme bfeat power attack
7 fighter feat combat style master, bfeat horn of the chriosphinx, retrain 5th feat to rhino charge
8 paladin
9 paladin feat battle cry
10 paladin
11 paladin feat ?
Point Buy
STR 20
DEX 7
CON 14
INT 7
WIS 7
CHR 16
In my RotR game, I had a suli brawler who took the Dragon style chain and so eventually got Str and a half on every single punch. And I'm pretty sure she started with Power Attack. I know she also had the Incremental Assault feat eventually. And she took weapon focus, weapon spec, etc.
She also had Deliquescent Gloves, the Brawling enchant on her armor, and a Holy (and eventually Dominant) Amulet of Mighty Fists. (The wizard was giving her greater magic weapon.)
So at first level she was punching for +5 1d6+4 (more than enough to flatten a goblin); by 12th level, assuming a 24 Str, she was punching for something like (this isn't perfect - I'm doing this by memory) -
+22/+22/+17/+17/+12 2d6+17+1d6 acid+2d6 holy+1d6 fire (Suli) without power attack and without any buffs other than the greater magic weapon. So about 38 damage a punch if the holy and elemental dice worked, without Power Attack. She hit even harder by the end of the campaign.
Her AC was pretty bad (worst in the party, even), but between her Con and the party's buffs spells she had the hit points to just ride out her enemies attacking her and would then turn everything in arm's reach into bloody goo.
The dragon that's got the cover illustration of Book 5 is one of the few enemies I remember her actually struggling with, because he has a really high AC (the highest in the AP, even? He's like 10 points ahead of anything else in the adventure he's in, at least) and she rolled pretty badly the entire fight.
She never took the Pummeling style stuff, but the party had a wizard who cheerfully dim door'd the melee into position whenever it was deemed worth it.
I think Brawlers can be incredible! I have a backup character waiting for my Barbarian's death.
Archetypes are important here for a good build, and I have seen great success with a sense motive based snakebite striker with snake style...barely get hit and deal sneak attack damage...
Also, the Mutagenic Mauler gets rid of the most annoying part to keep track of (Martial Mastery) and adds a mutagen.
I have a seen a Skinwalker Mutagenic Mauler use natural attacks to great effect.
|
Brawlers are better than the monk at going nuts with manuvers, with the exception of grapple. (Tetori is king there.) Plus brawlers are proficient with the longspear, so when going unarmed they can carry a masterwork longspear for the AOOs- especially great for a tripper or some such.
The Improved/Greater Trip combined with Combat Reflexes & Vicious Stomp is mean. Other than a manuver master - monks have trouble ever getting Greater Trip due to not having a high enough Int since they're so MAD.
If you know the feat trees well - the brawler's being able to pick up feats on the fly can be pretty awesome. There are quite a few feats which are potentially great - but far too specialized to actually take. Brawlers can take them when they need them. (The BBEG just cast displacement & mirror image? Close your eyes and grab Greater Blind-Fight and basically ignore both. Your wizard just cast a fog spell, giving everyone partial concealment? Moonlight Stalker seems like just the thing. That reach fighter keep backing up and stabbing you? Take Step Up & Strike and he can't touch you. etc.)
|
|
Brawlers are better than the monk at going nuts with manuvers, with the exception of grapple.They are only very barely above any other full BAB class in maneuvers... in fact, now that I think about it, just about everyone is better, unless you want to specialize in being able to do multiple maneuvers, I guess. Which is an okay thematic shtick, but kinda not a really great idea.
Three things make them better.
1 - They get inherent bonuses from manuver training, and can eventually get Greater Weapon Focus for that extra +1.
2 - They don't need a 13 Int to take Combat Expertise. This isn't much - but a few stat points saved at creation is nothing to sniff at.
3 - They can do them unarmed without extra cost. This again isn't huge - but it's an advantage. Disarming it lets them keep the weapon, trip combos with Vicious Stomp, and Pummeling Bully lets you do a manuver for free if you hit with any attack roll of your pummel.
The 3rd monks get as well - but I don't think that many would argue that the brawler isn't better at most manuvers than a monk. (Tetori beat them in grapple, and Manuver Masters with dirty trick.) Plus monks don't start proficient with any reach weapons, and AOOs are an important part of many manuver builds.
Brawlers are better than the monk at going nuts with manuvers, with the exception of grapple.They are only very barely above any other full BAB class in maneuvers... in fact, now that I think about it, just about everyone is better, unless you want to specialize in being able to do multiple maneuvers, I guess. Which is an okay thematic shtick, but kinda not a really great idea.Three things make them better.
1 - They get inherent bonuses from manuver training, and can eventually get Greater Weapon Focus for that extra +1.
2 - They don't need a 13 Int to take Combat Expertise. This isn't much - but a few stat points saved at creation is nothing to sniff at.
3 - They can do them unarmed without extra cost. This again isn't huge - but it's an advantage. Disarming it lets them keep the weapon, trip combos with Vicious Stomp, and Pummeling Bully lets you do a manuver for free if you hit with any attack roll of your pummel.
The 3rd monks get as well - but I don't think that many would argue that the brawler isn't better at most manuvers than a monk. (Tetori beat them in grapple, and Manuver Masters with dirty trick.) Plus monks don't start proficient with any reach weapons, and AOOs are an important part of many manuver builds.
I thought the big advantage that Brawlers had when it comes to Combat Maneuvers is that they only need to have the feats for said maneuvers when they need them.
For example, if the party encounters a bunch of spiders, a monk or fighter specializing in tripping or disarming foes have basically wasted their feats. But if the party later encounters an enemy who relies on a flaming sword to do damage, the Brawler can quickly slot in some disarming feats and pinch the sword right out of the enemy's hands with little fuss the same as the monk or fighter could.
The fact that he is outclassed by the monk doesn't mean he is bad.
Between pummeling style, qinggong, hungry ghost and agile or dragon style the monk can be a real powerhouse.
On an unrelated has there been any word on wether you can apply the brawling enhancement on a mithral breastplate?
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. "
"The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor."
Its a bit unclear what these limitations are, that's all.
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. "
"The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor."
Its a bit unclear what these limitations are, that's all.
Only if you deliberately obfuscate to make it so.
In formal terms:
Let L be a limitation. If L is a movement limitation, then L is a movement limitation. if L is not a movement limitation, then L is an other limitation.
There is no third choice; all limitations are either movement limitations or other limitations.
Is there a limitation w.r.t. brawling armor? Yes, "the brawling ability can be applied only to light armor." That's not a movement limitation, and therefore is an "other limitation."
I am not going to continue debating this since I have nothing more to add and this is not the thread for it.
That said your comment about deliberate obfuscation is simply untrue.
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. "
"The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor."
Its a bit unclear what these limitations are, that's all.
Pretty much the only thing that Mithral armor counts as it's original category is for proficiency.
As to "other limitations" it means just that. For instance, Fast Movement (Ex) from the barbarian only works in no, light or medium armor. That's an "other limitation".
The brawlers AC Bonus (Ex) only works with no or light armor. That's an "other limitation".
A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and use a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. That's an "other limitation".
Pretty much any feature, ability or effect that cares about armor type counts Mithril armor as 1 category lighter with the single exception of proficiency.
I've been doing fairly well with this build (the link, not the spoiler).
Version 2.0 (the spoiler) was a MoMS/Brawler (Fighter), and had a much higher attack bonus and damage per hit, but the Brawler (class) is much more flexible and has more attacks per round (and Pummeling Style, which 2.0 did not have since it didn't exist at the time). Being able to grab feats on the fly is pretty damn helpful.
Saves-wise they are comparable (slightly better Reflex), AC is slightly higher (Brawler AC bonus), but hit/damage is something like 4/5 lower per hit without the Gloves of Dueling and Weapon Focus/Spec.
All in all I'd say the MoMS/Fighter/Ranger build is probably better, but the MoMS/Brawler isn't too bad, and has some nifty tricks (Stacking Stunning Fist + Knockout +Paralyzing Strike or something on the first hit of your full attack is pretty hilarious).
I also have a Monk/Brawler Gestalt character at level 18 who's pretty badass so far, but well it's Gestalt. Steelbreaker and MoMS interact very well since you end up losing NOTHING from either class, and gaining several cool class features. Brawler/Sacred Fist is probably better though for that.
Actually Sun Xiao would probably be better off as something like a MoMS 2/Sacred Fist 11 as well, but he's not really the casting sort personality-wise.
The Improved/Greater Trip combined with Combat Reflexes & Vicious Stomp is mean.
It's meaner on a monk. This was actually one of the builds my friends and I tried to convert to brawler.
I thought the big advantage that Brawlers had when it comes to Combat Maneuvers is that they only need to have the feats for said maneuvers when they need them.
For example, if the party encounters a bunch of spiders, a monk or fighter specializing in tripping or disarming foes have basically wasted their feats. But if the party later encounters an enemy who relies on a flaming sword to do damage, the Brawler can quickly slot in some disarming feats and pinch the sword right out of the enemy's hands with little fuss the same as the monk or fighter could.
This is the biggest strength the brawler possesses, I think. Everything else he can do is outclassed by someone else.
The Improved/Greater Trip combined with Combat Reflexes & Vicious Stomp is mean.It's meaner on a monk. This was actually one of the builds my friends and I tried to convert to brawler.
This is the biggest strength the brawler possesses, I think. Everything else he can do is outclassed by someone else.I thought the big advantage that Brawlers had when it comes to Combat Maneuvers is that they only need to have the feats for said maneuvers when they need them.
For example, if the party encounters a bunch of spiders, a monk or fighter specializing in tripping or disarming foes have basically wasted their feats. But if the party later encounters an enemy who relies on a flaming sword to do damage, the Brawler can quickly slot in some disarming feats and pinch the sword right out of the enemy's hands with little fuss the same as the monk or fighter could.
If an opponent is too big to Vicious Stomp, then the feat is wasted in that combat.
Having a niche feat when you need it and only then is a pretty neat schtick.
|
|
I am in the same game with Snorb's Brawler and am playing a Chainsaw-wielding Barbarian. We are roughly on par with damage (mostly because I am focusing on Con, my raging Str is only 24). Against something with DR he easily out-damages me, I go down way less often though even with my lower AC (invulnerable rager, superstitious and 32 con raging).
|
|
Saves-wise they are comparable (slightly better Reflex), AC is slightly higher (Brawler AC bonus), but hit/damage is something like 4/5 lower per hit without the Gloves of Dueling and Weapon Focus/Spec.
They don't get Weapon Training - but brawlers can take Greater Weapon Focus and the Weapon Spec feats.
It's meaner on a monk. This was actually one of the builds my friends and I tried to convert to brawler.
Why? The brawler's AOOs are better since the monk's are made at his mid BAB. The monk can't get Greater Trip without an Int of 13 which few monk builds have the points for (exception of manuver master - but it has its own issues). The brawler can also hold a longspear to give him tripping AOOs as foes come at him since he's proficient. I don't see how this build could possibly be better on the monk.
Note: I'm not saying that the monk isn't probably more powerful overall with Quiggong. Just that this combo is better with the brawler.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
knowledge of all the combat feats is the brawler's strength... noted, but that seems like a real pain in the neck and a whole lot of mental gymnastics while waiting for your turn... at some point the overabundance of options can slow the game to a crawl even for the most seasoned gamers...
That's why I like the Mutagenic Mauler archetype...it gets rid of a pretty cumbersome crunch factor and adds a nice buff that's easy to take care of.
It's a good idea to have martial flexibility loadouts on notecards or something so you can just whip out a card when you use it. Now, if you have too many of those, even that will slow down the game some, but it's better than nothing.
|
|
knowledge of all the combat feats is the brawler's strength... noted, but that seems like a real pain in the neck and a whole lot of mental gymnastics while waiting for your turn... at some point the overabundance of options can slow the game to a crawl even for the most seasoned gamers...I think the Brawler should be played with preparation like a Summoner.
As a Summoner you should have cheat sheets with the stats of all the creatures you can summon ready at hand so as not to slow down play. the same goes for the Brawler and his feat combos. Write down the combos and what they're good against. should make combat a bit faster on your turn.
This.... will not happen.
Summoner draws a certain type of player... the careful, note-taking, prepared player.
Brawler... not so much, based on my experience thus far... which is why as a DM I see this class as a real pain. Average to lower than average players on the game mastery scale have been taking this class left and right, and each round they stare around the table with a big question mark above their head, asking the ruleslawyer "What should I do this round?"
Sigh
|
|
knowledge of all the combat feats is the brawler's strength... noted, but that seems like a real pain in the neck and a whole lot of mental gymnastics while waiting for your turn... at some point the overabundance of options can slow the game to a crawl even for the most seasoned gamers...That's why I like the Mutagenic Mauler archetype...it gets rid of a pretty cumbersome crunch factor and adds a nice buff that's easy to take care of.
Excellent fix. I will try to nudge a certain player in a certain direction... ;)
|
|
Sorry no. I refuse to do that. GMs have a lot to do, whether running PFS or homebrew. I would have done that back in university (i.e. spend an extra hour or two a week to take a player by the hand and prechew all his food and deposit it in its beak) but with wife and kids, busy career and a commute that is not getting any shorter, I have warned all my players, PFS or not, to come to the table prepared with the knowledge of how to operate their characters.
If a player hesitates, I give him about 20 seconds before I say "Ok, you delay then."
It's not fair for the rest of the table to pay for lazy people's refusal to crack the book open and read about their class (and shall I say, perhaps also some cheapass people's refusal to buy a book once in a while or failing that, being too lazy to read the sections of the PRD that concerns them?)
I once had a player do a little messageboard fit and threaten leaving the group. Back then I put my diplomacy hat on and helped him understand his character and how loot was assigned and how XPs were decided, and and and and and... but now? tough! I would kindly show him the door and wish him good luck with his next gaming group.
|
I think the Brawler should be played with preparation like a Summoner.
As a Summoner you should have cheat sheets with the stats of all the creatures you can summon ready at hand so as not to slow down play. the same goes for the Brawler and his feat combos. Write down the combos and what they're good against. should make combat a bit faster on your turn.
I did this with my Brawler last weekend, and it worked remarkably well. I walked in with a list of 22 combat feats I could pick up on the fly. I ended up using only a handful (Intimidating Prowess, Enforcer, Improved Grapple, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bola), but I felt like I could do anything. The versatility of this class at 1st level was amazing.
I can't speak to their power at higher levels, but at low levels, this can be a very fun class to play if you know what you're doing.
They don't get Weapon Training - but brawlers can take Greater Weapon Focus and the Weapon Spec Feats.Saves-wise they are comparable (slightly better Reflex), AC is slightly higher (Brawler AC bonus), but hit/damage is something like 4/5 lower per hit without the Gloves of Dueling and Weapon Focus/Spec.
I'm aware, but the Brawler has fewer Feats and I needed to cram Pummeling Charge in there.
But I can snag them with Martial Flexibility though.
Excellent fix. I will try to nudge a certain player in a certain direction... ;)knowledge of all the combat feats is the brawler's strength... noted, but that seems like a real pain in the neck and a whole lot of mental gymnastics while waiting for your turn... at some point the overabundance of options can slow the game to a crawl even for the most seasoned gamers...That's why I like the Mutagenic Mauler archetype...it gets rid of a pretty cumbersome crunch factor and adds a nice buff that's easy to take care of.
It even is worth it to dip 2 lvls of alchemist for Feral Mutagen...you gain claw/claw/bite, then take Improved Natural Attack and Feral Combat Training, and you can use those claws with IUS.
|
|
They don't get Weapon Training - but brawlers can take Greater Weapon Focus and the Weapon Spec Feats.Saves-wise they are comparable (slightly better Reflex), AC is slightly higher (Brawler AC bonus), but hit/damage is something like 4/5 lower per hit without the Gloves of Dueling and Weapon Focus/Spec.
I'm aware, but the Brawler has fewer Feats and I needed to cram Pummeling Charge in there.
But I can snag them with Martial Flexibility though.
They may not have been worth it for your particular build - but you can hardly put not having the feats as a negative of the class in general.
|
|
It even is worth it to dip 2 lvls of alchemist for Feral Mutagen...you gain claw/claw/bite, then take Improved Natural Attack and Feral Combat Training, and you can use those claws with IUS.Excellent fix. I will try to nudge a certain player in a certain direction... ;)knowledge of all the combat feats is the brawler's strength... noted, but that seems like a real pain in the neck and a whole lot of mental gymnastics while waiting for your turn... at some point the overabundance of options can slow the game to a crawl even for the most seasoned gamers...That's why I like the Mutagenic Mauler archetype...it gets rid of a pretty cumbersome crunch factor and adds a nice buff that's easy to take care of.
you'll need Weapon Focus (bite) to make this happen though, and I'm not sure what happens to the bite damage when you go up in brawler level (feral combat training says you can apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike.")
That...sounds pretty low to me.I've got an awesome brawler in Iron Gods. Pummeling Style, incidentally, is an absolutely horrifying thing to behold now that we're 11th level, mostly because with Power Attack, +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists, +4 Belt of Giant's Strength, and our skald's rage song, she does a minimum of 20 damage per punch.
(And yes, our group has learned that Haste is a very wonderful thing. SIX ATTACKS~ that all resolve as one powerful punch!)
Maybe he means for each of the 6 attacks, rather than the big pooled attack.
Unless I am bad with mid level scales of damage. a potential minimum of 120 if every 'hit' connects still sounds rather good though.
High DPR (without party buffs like haste and rage song) for lvl 11 would be in the 150~160 range AFTER accounting for miss chance. My feeling is RD wants to know if someone has laid out a build that could reliably do 160+ damage at lvl 11 (as an example.)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The point of the brawler and maneuvers, is that most classes have to be super great at maneuvers because they invest so heavily in them that HAVE to be able to perform them successfully against their strongest foes. The Brawled doesn't (or at least shouldn't) go at it that way.
He doesn't need to have a good enough trip to knock over a large quadruped, because when faced with a something like that he chooses a different tactic, but when a hoard a small humanoids runs, up, he can put them all on their rears.
He isn't the best because he has the highest numbers, he is the best because he is able to target the opponents biggest weakness.