New agro mechanic


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

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So do the devs really just not want us doing the harder escalations? With the healing nerf (and it is a nerf) and the changes to agro its impossible to tank and impossible to kite. So are we just not suppose to do harder mobs?

Goblin Squad Member

I would imagine they want some mobs to be a bit out of our ability, with EE only being 3 weeks old and the limited amount of xp we have to spend.

Goblin Squad Member

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Then escalations that we have no capacity to fight need to be removed until there are the capabilities in place to fight them.

Goblin Squad Member

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There has been an mob AI change? Good, I thought I had gone sloppy, I just survived a dual Ogre by jumping of the cliff, thanks heaven the falling damage wasn't in also...

Goblin Squad Member

What are the changes? (too much work, can't play today)

Goblin Squad Member

has anyone tested whether or not the utilities with the provoking keywords counteract the new changes to some degree when you are trying to tank for a group?

CEO, Goblinworks

What healing nerf?


FMS Trippic wrote:
has anyone tested whether or not the utilities with the provoking keywords counteract the new changes to some degree when you are trying to tank for a group?

No one can tank a tier 2 escalation in tier 1 gear.

Goblin Squad Member

wasnt talking about tanking tier2 in particular just tanking in general
with the new mechanic


Ryan Dancey wrote:
What healing nerf?

He might be referring to minor cure.

While tripling it's healing is nice, the 6 second cooldown is a nerf if they can kill you before the next 6 second increment.

In 11 seconds I could spam the old minor cure for more than 150 health.

In 17 seconds I could spam it for more than 300 health.

I haven't seen the new AI behavior, to comment on it yet,

but minor cure *is* nerfed. It may be a sensible and needed nerf, but in scary fights against higher tiered opponents it kept the death rate more sensible, which was important since we were (are?) taking double durability hits on deaths in that hex.


FMS Trippic wrote:

wasnt talking about tanking tier2 in particular just tanking in general

with the new mechanic

Fair enough.

CEO, Goblinworks

Apparently there was some mis-communication about healing that didn't match the patch notes. We'll fix that.

I had assumed that the change to the healing orisons was the addition of the new versions with a built-in charge, not that the older versions were also changed.


I'm not sure what orisons are. I think what I use is the acolyte's battle focus and an 81 xp point cantrip(?) called minor cure that we used to be able to spam for 50 point heals, but now does 150 point heals with a 6 second cooldown.

Grand Lodge

Yeah, some kind of explanation as to how monsters are generating threat now that it changed would be super cool.

Had a group from KP out killing purple ogres this morning and it seems like threat applied to any given monster is being divided across the group that gets pulled along side it. I know that we all got attacked by wolves and louts even though none of us were even targeting them or healing.

Additionally, thank you for looking into the healing nerf, as of right now the 6 second cooldown makes it useless to heal against anything that isn't a low level white, as well as making after combat recovery take wayyyy too long.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Midnight of Golgotha wrote:
I'm not sure what orisons are. I think what I use is the acolyte's battle focus and an 81 xp point cantrip(?) called minor cure that we used to be able to spam for 50 point heals, but now does 150 point heals with a 6 second cooldown.

Cantrip = Wizard magical effect slotted into a wand or staff.

Orison = Cleric magical effect slotted into a focus.

Spell = Wizard magical effect slotted into a spellbook, and Cleric magical effect slotted into a holy symbol.

Cantrips and Orisons are bought from trainers, and can be improved at trainers.

Spells are dropped by monsters, and have a pre-set level.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

Capitalocracy wrote:
What are the changes? (too much work, can't play today)

EERRRRRR! Wrong answer, same player try again ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Wizard cantrips = cleric orisons.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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FMS Trippic wrote:
has anyone tested whether or not the utilities with the provoking keywords counteract the new changes to some degree when you are trying to tank for a group?

The word chosen as a keyword does not determine what it does. The 'provoking' keyword does not 'provoke' a monster by increasing its aggro rating toward the provoking character. As a keyword, 'provoking' could just as easily be 'spork'. What matters is how many keywords you match, not what those keywords say.

In PFO, there is no 'tanking by aggro management'. A fighter is not intended to spam taunts until all the monsters attack him, regardless of what the other party members are doing.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Capitalocracy wrote:
What are the changes? (too much work, can't play today)

Actually, we've been teased with the challenge of trying to figure out what the AI changes are, before Goblinworks posts a blog spelling them out.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Apparently there was some mis-communication about healing that didn't match the patch notes. We'll fix that.

I had assumed that the change to the healing orisons was the addition of the new versions with a built-in charge, not that the older versions were also changed.

To other players (Ryan already knows this): The built-in charge effects don't work yet.

They're intended to help healers get close to the person they want to heal. (Target Party Member X, hit Charging Minor Cure, the orison moves you toward that person, then the healing is applied.) So far, it doesn't work.

The GW team hopes that figuring out why this charge doesn't work will help them figure out why many of the Charge/Withdraw/Balestra effects are so inconsistent and quirky.


KarlBob wrote:
Midnight of Golgotha wrote:
I'm not sure what orisons are. I think what I use is the acolyte's battle focus and an 81 xp point cantrip(?) called minor cure that we used to be able to spam for 50 point heals, but now does 150 point heals with a 6 second cooldown.

Cantrip = Wizard magical effect slotted into a wand or staff.

Orison = Cleric magical effect slotted into a focus.

Spell = Wizard magical effect slotted into a spellbook, and Cleric magical effect slotted into a holy symbol.

Cantrips and Orisons are bought from trainers, and can be improved at trainers.

Spells are dropped by monsters, and have a pre-set level.

Thanks.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Midnight of Golgotha wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
Midnight of Golgotha wrote:
I'm not sure what orisons are. I think what I use is the acolyte's battle focus and an 81 xp point cantrip(?) called minor cure that we used to be able to spam for 50 point heals, but now does 150 point heals with a 6 second cooldown.

Cantrip = Wizard magical effect slotted into a wand or staff.

Orison = Cleric magical effect slotted into a focus.

Spell = Wizard magical effect slotted into a spellbook, and Cleric magical effect slotted into a holy symbol.

Cantrips and Orisons are bought from trainers, and can be improved at trainers.

Spells are dropped by monsters, and have a pre-set level.

Thanks.

You're welcome. It's weird terminology, inherited by Pathfinder from the (first?) second and third editions of D&D.

Goblinworks Lead Game Designer

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Not everything in the game currently is something that a single character, or even a single group, of max XP can take. We want to have both aspirational critters in there, and to provide threats that really big groups of players can try and tackle. Without these sorts of AI changes higher tier monsters would never be a threat.

Goblin Squad Member

Ok so healing nerf. You use to be able to spam minor cure (barring the blue bar running out) for 50 healing. Now you can use it once for 150 every 6 seconds. This is a hps nerf. 300 hps with the old cure and 150 hps over 6 seconds for the new one. These numbers will shift more and more in favor of the new cure the longer you spam due to stamina requirements.

Agro - If you are in a group and you pull there seems to be a chance for random mobs to just decide to attack random people with you not the person who pulled.

Goblin Squad Member

I am good with not being able to multi-spam Minor Cure. The stam regen was too fast for what it did, there does have to be a limit. It really does change the tactics though. I had a system down, and have to change it. Just got to adapt.

The cooldowns do get stuck quite often though. Agile Feet, Minor Cure, occasionally on attacks, the orison "whites out" for a minute of more and it cannot be used. I have not found a common reason for it. Could be a hex border thing, but have not looked to see if that is consistent. Dangerous to not be able to use those when you are counting on them.

Goblin Squad Member

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I think the Agro change is a good thing. I think it makes the mobs act smarter when they don't line up and all chase the one character we specifically want them to chase. PvPers wouldn't all chase the one player that shoots them first, right?

The fact that mobs are invulnerable when they return to their camp is also a good thing. PvE difficulty has been ramped up a little with that as well.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Yes, the cooldown on Minor Cure is a nerf, of the sort where we're removing something that was unintentionally too powerful. It was never meant to be spammed (it was the only direct heal without a cooldown, and only because our experiment with turning cooldowns off on secondaries made it into EE). We intend the HP bar to be a major component of fight timing that can't be repaired indefinitely while in combat, so we did not mean to create a power that would give the impression that trying to heal through damage was viable. I'm sorry you guys started to rely on it in that form, but please expect a lot of the other combat math and mechanics to change as we notice things that aren't being used as anticipated (i.e., my starting math is only a very rough guess and EE is important for actually helping us determine the real value of various elements of the system).

As Lee says, the Tier 2 escalations should, indeed, be out of reach of Tier 1 characters for now, save possibly in very large groups. They should become significantly easier as T2 gear and stats start becoming available in a couple of weeks.

Goblin Squad Member

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If you want to nerf something else, please nerf energetic field, it is broken, extremely broken.

Goblin Squad Member

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Not sure how players are supposed to get equipped in T2 gear if the recipes to make it drop from monsters which are intended to be out of reach of T1 players.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm sorry if t2 escalations are suppose to be out of reach of us right now why have they been in the game sine EE launched?

Goblin Squad Member

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@Guurzak, I think we can make some T2+0 gear without found recipes, actually. Or we will be able to soon. Or we can go out in large groups, accepting the trade of T1+N gear durability for a roll at a T2 recipe.

Goblin Squad Member

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KotC Carbon D. Metric wrote:

Yeah, some kind of explanation as to how monsters are generating threat now that it changed would be super cool.

Had a group from KP out killing purple ogres this morning and it seems like threat applied to any given monster is being divided across the group that gets pulled along side it. I know that we all got attacked by wolves and louts even though none of us were even targeting them or healing.

Additionally, thank you for looking into the healing nerf, as of right now the 6 second cooldown makes it useless to heal against anything that isn't a low level white, as well as making after combat recovery take wayyyy too long.

Yah that was a surprise .. standing around going "haha look at the ogres all chasing our wizzie better start shooting now" as he kites away and they suddenly turned and chased me instead.

The new "immune on reset" thing is also really annoying with purples as you finally you get them down to where they have almost no HP left and are about to drop and suddenly its " bored now jogging back to camp and healing up". If they are immune to being shot they should not be able to heal up either.

On the positive side,the ranged buffs and longer buffs look like being a very good thing. Good move.

Goblin Squad Member

Considering how many times monsters have murdered me while I was running away, I don't think it's fair that we don't get to do the same to them. But attacking more than one person in a group attacking them is certainly more realistic.

Goblin Squad Member

Capitalocracy wrote:
Considering how many times monsters have murdered me while I was running away, I don't think it's fair that we don't get to do the same to them. But attacking more than one person in a group attacking them is certainly more realistic.

No argument there.

However when resetting either:
a) they should not heal
or
b) they are not immune and instead acquire aggro again if attacked

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Gol Phyllain wrote:
I'm sorry if t2 escalations are suppose to be out of reach of us right now why have they been in the game sine EE launched?

So that it could be tested whether or not we could kill them, of course.

Testing requires attempting to do some things that should fail, to try them.

Paizo Employee Goblinworks Game Designer

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Gol Phyllain wrote:
I'm sorry if t2 escalations are suppose to be out of reach of us right now why have they been in the game sine EE launched?

They're partially there as a reminder that some things are best avoided unless you can come at them in massive numbers, and sometimes not even then. I suspect that a large enough group, operating with some care, could actually take out just about any encounter in the game reasonably quickly, although some losses might be incurred. Done repeatedly, that should take out even the toughest escalation, with the better loot outweighing all the durability hits (some gatherers to regularly carry off loot might be needed as well).

I did worry that the tougher escalations could potentially overrun the map before the server population is prepared to battle them at their intended settings, so I greatly reduced their ability to spread and the number of them that would launch. It's a bit unfortunate that the Mordant Spire escalation randomly landed in a chokepoint, making them harder to avoid, but they're really not capable of spreading any further at this point.

Ultimately, you have multiple options for dealing with these escalations. You can ignore them, since they won't get too out of hand, though that may require regularly running through their hexes to fight/gather elsewhere. You can fight them with smaller parties, being very selective about which encounters to tackle. That probably won't defeat them, but will hold them somewhat in check and could earn you pretty good loot for your efforts. Or you can find ways to get more players to help you tackle them, since numbers make a huge difference. And those are just scratching the surface of the possibilities.

Goblin Squad Member

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I really really like that we have things that are to powerful to handle!! It expands the decision tree and puts some bite into PvE.

(Rant)

If "carebear" is a derisive term used in some contex or another that no one seems to agree upon, I think it is really applicable to those fostered in the spirit of 3.5 D&D's encounter level design. Scaling stuff after the strength of your party is an abdominal RPG technique.

(/rant)

I do feel for Golotha having Mordant next door, but heya, it makes life interesting, eyh! You wanna live forever, eyh?


Gol Phyllain wrote:
So do the devs really just not want us doing the harder escalations? With the healing nerf (and it is a nerf) and the changes to agro its impossible to tank and impossible to kite. So are we just not suppose to do harder mobs?

Define "Harder mobs"

Also, I whole-heartedly welcome the changes minor cure. It feels balanced now instead of OP - even without charges.

EDIT: Frame captures of Nihimon biting the dust are available for 50 coal apiece. j/k (no, seriously, PM me)


TEO Cheatle wrote:
If you want to nerf something else, please nerf energetic field, it is broken, extremely broken.

I think an 18 second cool down would do it, since it only lasts 2 rounds.

Also, getting the arcane penalty tech in for heavy armor would help tremendously.

And then there are charges....


I now hear Benny Hill music every time a group of mobs aggro, then all split off and target someone *else* besides the puller who aggroed them in the first place. :/

Oh, and yes, we were still able to take down an Ogg group, not in T2 gear, but absolutely nothing good dropped to make it worth the puller and other assorted deaths. T2 challenges should have T2 rewards.

Goblin Squad Member

I don't think many of you understand the problems with not being able to take on T2 Escalations. They grow more powerful and expand into adjoining hexes if you don't fight them.

They were hard enough keeping in check before the patch. Now, they will just expand to maximum capacity and make a bunch of hexes flooded with impossible mobs.

Now, if GW INTENDS for hexes to be in a permanently escalated state...well they will certainly get it lol. I've heard there is a cap on how many they can expand in, though, so it may not be too bad...

Goblin Squad Member

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We were able to take down what seemed like a few dozen T2 groups of ogres tonight with only a handful of deaths the whole time. We took our time, used tactics, assigned targets, and executed plans successfully. We were able to learn quite a bit along the way, and we got more comfortable as time passed. I think the hardest group we took down had 3 purples (2 shamans and a ravager), 3 reds, and a bunch of yellows in a mixed group of about 8 ogres with a handful of wolves thrown in. Nihimon managed to die on that one. ;)

Having people that can focus fire and burn down targets as someone calls them out is essential. Also, it helps to be able to rely on a couple of tank types standing toe to toe with red or even purple ogres while the rest are burned down. I think we managed to do it all with only 2 healers, and only one of them was a dedicated cleric.

Overall I absolutely love the changes to the AI. I hadn't done any PvE for over a week because it was basically boring, but now it's fun again. It was a great way to get some of our new recruits into some coordinated action, and I look forward to the next time (probably this weekend sometime) that we organize another event like that.

Goblin Squad Member

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As the 1 dedicated healer for a party of about 16 last night, I can say I was fond of the new minor cure.

Goblin Squad Member

If you're going to put a timer on heal (minor cure) please give it some range.

Goblin Squad Member

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You now have two minor cures, the 150 melee one with a cooldown around 5 secs (havent timed it) and the charge minor cure 50, which has a variety of uses. Those can be juggled with the bigger power heals.

Goblin Squad Member

Archetype wrote:

Oh, and yes, we were still able to take down an Ogg group, not in T2 gear, but absolutely nothing good dropped to make it worth the puller and other assorted deaths. T2 challenges should have T2 rewards.

Yeah we killed at least 5 or 10 purples in an hour or two of ogre hunting last night and not a single T2 drop for anyone.

Goblin Squad Member

Alright so when Golgothans are talking about t2 escalations we arn't talking about 5-10 ogre shamans. We are talking about mordent spire where everything is purple except 1 or 2 reds.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
TEO Cheatle wrote:
If you want to nerf something else, please nerf energetic field, it is broken, extremely broken.

I think an 18 second cool down would do it, since it only lasts 2 rounds.

Also, getting the arcane penalty tech in for heavy armor would help tremendously.

And then there are charges....

I understand you want to avoid spamming this as well. But what is the wizard equivalent of the cleric orison "agile feet"? You can spam that as well without penalty. Should it also get a longer cool down? Is the real goal that no buffing/healing cantrips/orisons/spells should be able to be spammed in a combat?

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
Gol Phyllain wrote:
So do the devs really just not want us doing the harder escalations? With the healing nerf (and it is a nerf) and the changes to agro its impossible to tank and impossible to kite. So are we just not suppose to do harder mobs?

Define "Harder mobs"

Also, I whole-heartedly welcome the changes minor cure. It feels balanced now instead of OP - even without charges.

EDIT: Frame captures of Nihimon biting the dust are available for 50 coal apiece. j/k (no, seriously, PM me)

So that's how the rest of that fight went...

Goblin Squad Member

Corky Thatcher wrote:
I don't think many of you understand the problems with not being able to take on T2 Escalations. They grow more powerful and expand into adjoining hexes if you don't fight them.

Devs have indicated on the GW forums that the T2 escalations will not spread to surrounding hexes at this time.

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