It's exactly what I expected, after ~70 days of not being jumped while gathering resources (except in good-natured consensual fun by an ally before husks came into the game). Besides the map is so very very devoid of players.
I've seen exactly ONE player outside of a settlement, even though the walkabout has spanned a weekend.
Forencith of Phaeros, TSV wrote:
In the real world, the first man to erect a fence and claim all this is mine and none shall pass... that man was egregiously evil and the world would be a better place if he had been laughed out of civilization, rather than copied.
In our virtual world, I was one of the first E.E. territorial players because that is, in my opinion, the absolutely best way to roleplay the evil that my guild had chosen to play here.
So when I say, welcome to the dark side, I'm sincere.
Had my guild chosen to roleplay good, you'd see an entirely different personal player behavior (though I'd have to work within a group framework and most of those guildmates might have a difficult time accepting that, in the real world, they live in what I view as an evil society).
Gotcha, well it is indeed more lenient in its current state. I don't see your evil settlement or characters being less powerful than your good counterparts. And I think it's safe to say being a bandit is just as easy as being the good guy. I'm almost positive that's not intended.
While being an *occasional* bandit is just as easy, that just points to a failure of the social control element that Lisa and Ryan put in PLAYER hands.
I'm amazed that Midnight doesn't get hunted down as the public face of coal killing (even though I know players who kill way more coal gatherers and bring home far more coal than Midnight).
Of course, Midnight does things that perhaps mitigate any calls for a posse. e.g. I bumped into a stranger who had a husk in the center of a gnarly pack of mobs and told them to let me pull the mobs away so he could get his husk. I hope that on the day a posse comes with a rope for Midnight, that whoever that stranger was fires an arrow that slices the rope, allowing me to escape.
But social control leniency has also allowed players to TRY a lot of things out and that should be improving crowdforging. I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of clemency movement at the Cataclysm or at OE. But it might also be a mistake for miscreants to depend on it.
As a tier 2 gatherer of 4 gathering types I feel the consequences of losing to banditry are usually inconsequential.
I could lose ~30 minutes of gathering if I wasn't smart enough to run away.
Yes, moving hundreds of recipes/spells/maneuvers from one bank to another in one load is risky, but that always remains a choice of risk versus time spent moving them one at a time (or some hybrid) for safety. That's a good thing in a game where choices matter.
It is subjective for each person, obviously. Thus the need for whole INFORMED crowdforging thing, tempered of course by the devs' intentions and the way the game is/was marketed.
I'll offer some SUBJECTIVE personal views...
To offer you an Eve-online example, I didn't like 4 cheap destroyers being able to kill a far more expensive Mackinaw before the Concorde "guards" could stop them.
In this game I wouldn't want to see a throwaway 1,000 point character two shotting my tier 2 equipped character. (I don't think that can happen now, but I also don't imagine myself crowdforging to get such a gank-friendly world).
I completely agree with the crafters who want to be able to see the mini-map while having the crafting window open.
I didn't start crafting until the devs improved the Thornguard behavior to fire on an attacker flag (and I'd *still* like to see the mini-map).
Proxima Sin of Brighthaven wrote:
People who PvP are competitive and want to see clear evidence they won. Everywhere. Even the forums. You can't put much import in these threads because at least half of every post is tactical verbal maneuvering, feints, and pushes to disable some ideas and and advance their own so they can win that too.
While there's some truth to that, there's also some fallacy to it.
There are times when you'll see legitimate honest crowdforging at the expense of PvP.
I have 2 crafters. I have a combat character that has killed a hundred (closer to a thousand) times more mobs than player characters. THIS character is a gatherer with far far more xp put into gathering than combat skills.
I want to be able to craft, gather, carry recipe drops, etc. without unreasonable risks. You can't get far in this game without doing that stuff.
I'll remind you, that it was Golgothan PvPers who invited the devs on the Hammerfall raid to show them how worthless Thornguards were. If you like Thornguards who fire on an attacker flag... thank Golgothan PvPers.
It is likely I and my mates accept risk (and even losses) more easily than those who have habitually avoided PvP, but we really are looking for the right balance of risk versus reward for the game in general.
And the low/no risk side has plenty of advocates. I can only hope people engage in INFORMED crowdforging rather than just what they read about in the forums. Especially because there are so few PvP voices to read.
I've seen myself and my Golgothan mates in action. This is just one person's view but I'll share.
There's no one size fits all strategy or tactic. People are different, each one has moods too, and then there's the complication of group dynamics as people come together.
This is why lawful settlements set some minimum standards as well as often debriefing after combat to decide if we really liked that result and should we do it again or would we do it differently next time. These are constant conversations because we are trying to strike a balance. Although we want to be an "evil" settlement and we want to attract and retain PvPers by engaging in PvP, we aren't going to attract the folks we want with egregious behavior. This is why other power blocs always try to paint our behavior as worse than it is. They hope to interfere with us recruiting the responsible adults we're looking for (that they hope will become part of THEIR military machine, instead). I'd ALWAYS urge you to weigh your own experiences with Golgothans far more heavily than the negative propaganda other power blocs post. Even when they are truthful about a particular incident, they are trying to get the world to pinpoint focus on that one sub-optimal aspect instead of the overall actual realistic picture of the thousands of interactions Golgothans have that aren't controversial.
Yes we weigh risk over reward at times, but you're leaving out one very important part of that equation... reputation cost.
The beauty of defensive grouping is that if you're in a non-PvP hex that's an awful lot of rep hits for someone (even a group of someones) to take. Besides the rep hit we'd also get attacker flags and now be subject to tab targeting and the GROUP focused fire that allows.
But if you're in an open PvP window, well... who is ignoring risk versus reward, now?
I've seen (and heard on comms) players get our grace and run by us unmolested many many times. And I've seen us pounce.
On comms you'll also hear us comment on the intelligence of our possible targets, including praise for the smart ones. I *like* smart gatherers. Sometimes being a smart gatherer just means running when you see Midnight on your mini-map.
They live. I gather coal faster. And by the time my pack fills they have probably finished the sandwich they went off to make. There are DOZENS of folks who just know to clear out and come back later, especially if the PvP window is open.
But I've also seen the low intelligence play like someone who (after being warned earlier about poaching and telling us he was just passing through) would try and lumber off Zombie Kitten Mountain with so much copper that he was inching his way across the map with a forum famous PvPer walking behind him (and I was calling for backup on comms just for help to carry the expected loot) and then I watched him stroll into an open PvP hex.
Surely he's going to turn around, I think. "Don't be a jerk" comes to mind. Game mechanics don't let you see what the next hex is until you enter (and I've already suggested that we crowdforge a change to that). So abiding by the "Don't be a jerk" rule I give him time to turn around and exit the new Open PvP hex. The "Don't be a jerk" rule AND then, just sheer morbid curiosity keeps me from shooting him for an extra minute as I watch him blithely stroll further and further into an open PvP hex.
Anyone want to guess how that ended?
And my thanks to Flynn Pontis for helping carry the copper back to Golgotha where it belongs. :-)
10 days ago I offered to present this course on Mumble for Pathfinder Online University but while trying to schedule it PvP livened up for a couple of days and I suggested putting it on hold because I was too busy doing combat to chat about combat.
The PFO-U rep I spoke to said that made the course even more germane and needed, and frankly I agree, but we’ll have to settle on doing this as a Paizo thread, and hopefully LOTS of experienced people can offer answers to any questions, as will I.
Mobile Nodes: How to avoid becoming one.
Presented by Midnight.
The instructor is a self described enthusiastic but mediocre PvPer who has Tier 2 in all 4 gathering skills and is pushing two gathering skills to tier 3.
This class excludes Tower oriented combat but may offer ideas you’ll use there.
Short lecture. There will likely be more questions and answers than lecture.
1) Get out there and do offensive PvP. It will make you a better defender as you see the various ways people defeat/escape you. Seeing what they do wrong or right when you’re not carrying anything important may make the difference when YOU are a defender and, thus, help you get those valuable resources, recipe drops, etc. to YOUR bank. You can practice offense in hexes with an open PvP window without reputation loss. If you find an often contested hex like a coal hex (where there aren’t many other coal hexes) you also aren’t likely to shock anyone and cause hurt feelings.
2) Stealth is your friend, not for hiding, but for cutting targeting range. Even turning it on for a few seconds can break someone’s targeting.
3) Speed and other buffs are your friends. Don’t forget you have them. You may not even need to fight. The Function One button will shift your focus to yourself in case the enemy attacks are causing you to auto-target them.
4) Don’t advertise you are carrying anything. Avoid encumbrance. Slow targets are juicy targets.
5) Be aware of PvP windows in hexes you operate in, as well as in hexes you might escape to. Be aware of the stereotypical demeanor of the folks in each neighborhood, unless scouting that is why are heading there in the first place.
6) The 60 second attacker flag. Your attacker might want to keep renewing it BEFORE it expires. Don't let him do that in a hex without an open PvP window. You want him to take the rep penalty he'll get if he attacks again after the attacker flag expires. The attacker flag can even remain valid moving from a hex with an open PvP window as you both move to an adjacent hex with a closed PvP window.
These are just very simple points, but hopefully they’ll lead to useful and educational discussions.
and to quote my 7th grade algebra teacher whenever he finished a lecture...
Questions? Comments? Criticisms? Cries of Anguish?
Solo PvPers should have backup on comms. While I often patrol the coal hex myself, I always know that some of my mates will jump off the mountain to join me if I want some help. There are times I call for backup just because I can tell by how slowly my target is moving that I'm going to need help carrying all of our newfound wealth.. Thanks Flynn Pontis. :-)
I want to be clear that I'm speaking as an individual (but as an individual with enough characters to singlehandedly grab all of E.L.'s towers any day I choose).
There are 3 reasons settlements have towers:
1) Because they are mighty (or sneaky) enough and disciplined enough to hold them under whatever WoT game mechanics exist at the time.
2) Because their neighbors practice forbearance (for a variety of reasons, from diplomatic to military to propaganda value or fear of negative propaganda, or even because a settlement is seen as cute and lovable, or seen as being useful).
3) Because there is a surplus of towers.
#3 looks like it is going away, and will likely pressure the viabilty of many settlements relying on #2. That doesn't mean #2 can't work, just that it is likely to be more challenging.
There are quite a few reasons I haven't singlehandedly taken E.L.'s towers, the first being that I (currently) prefer being in my current settlement to the option of creating a company to take your (or anyone else's) towers and holding them as an indie (who could recruit more folks to help, obviously).
I also like nearly every E.L. member I've communicated with.
I'm intrigued with what you're doing, and simple curiosity over what will happen next is also a big part of my individual E.L. forbearance. RiverBank's Academy could also fall into that category soon or someday.
In fact the only thing working against you (as far as my individual forbearance) is the fact that if I took them it would mobilize a lot of people to your defense.
You might think that works for you, until you realize I like PvP and even a day of LOSING PvP can be better than a day without it.
But you can currently put up a sign saying: 47 days without Midnight capturing our towers. :-)
Considering WHY you can put up that sign should help you figure out how to keep that and over 32 other signs up.
I'm not trying to alarm you with the sudden realization that you have more people to worry about than the 32 settlement leaders you're already juggling. I'm just trying to offer one person's individual view on the strengths and weaknesses of your position and what you do and don't have going for you.
Good luck, and I agree with a lot of the sentiment of the people above.
Whether the current system is accidental, or not, I have to agree with Pino.. stopping at gathering 7 ought not be a wildly excellent min-max optimum.
That doesn't mean that some of my types of gathering won't stop at 7. It's already sort of a sweet-spot since you get access to better materials, and I'm ok with a t1 volume trade-off (as far as the supplemental types of gathering I'm not pushing to tier 3 this year).
But it *does seem* to be a trade-off, and making choices matter is (and should remain) important.
But you have my sympathy on the late night not really thinking choice, O.P. We've all been there on some feat.
Open letter to all settlement and company leaders - RiverBank is becoming the River Academy and would like your help.
Every settlement is capable of providing new player orientation.
They have simply been (largely) reserving that effort towards their new members.
The settlement where I reside has open forum pages where strangers can ask questions, and a TS3 commons channel that is either public or the worst kept secret in Golaria.
It might be that settlements should just be more helpful to the unaligned and make them aware of the resources at their disposal.
Perhaps easier said than done, but if anything, the O.P.'s announcement may be offering settlements the incentive they need to to start no-pressure orientation for even the unaligned, or be left out of the orientation process and it's resulting recruiting possibilities.
On a slight tangent, one thing I've noticed is that no player that I have defeated or sent running has ever messaged me to ask what they could have done better. In "that other game", it was fairly expected to get that question from someone you defeated and it was often answered in a helpful and respectful manner by the victor. Perhaps I need to take the initiative and start that conversation after battles but I haven't in the past because it might sound condescending for the victor to start it. (And when I've lost I've been fairly clear on where I screwed up).
Before the patch, I've seen many known PvPers logged in and stationary for long periods in what would be sleep times and work times in their stated timezones.
So I'm going to stick with my prediction that it will vastly slow down "unsanctioned PvP".
Most days, I could have gone afk 20 hours a day to regain rep, if I chose.
Luckily, I carved a *REAL* reputation early on and only have to flex my bow (and take rep hits) on very rare occasions to get a hex to myself. Especially now that folks worry about leaving husks. I'm not trying to rack up kills; I'm just racking up resources for Benevolent Dictator by chasing others away and grabbing an occasional husk from those who haven't gotten the memo.
Most folks understand what's going on by now, (whether or not they approve), so I spent most of the last 2 weeks, for instance, at max rep, and never fell under 6,000 (all without afk-ing), even though I'm widely viewed as a scourge of the coal fields. (In fact, there are people with far more kills than me, even in "my" :-) coal hex).
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
So is 30 rep an hour good for PvPers or bad?
It is slower than before but faster than the 10 rep they chose when this patch was first announced.
The upside is if we get it back without being in game. I haven't tested it.
AFKing for rep gain was just stupid.
But it will vastly slow down "unsanctioned PvP",
or maybe just force me to play my characters in rotation. ;-)
I'm still pricing my tattoo of a mound of shiny rocks. ;-)
To read about another fascinating Eve personality
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Dude, you're going to be revolutionary zero no matter WHAT the issue. ;-)
Hey Kobold Cleaver, what are *you* rebelling against?
KC: Whatta ya got?
Oh, so far it hasn't become Eve (except in the whole big power blocs that might get a bit full of themselves ala BoB). I dig the leadership far and wide.
But it is very very early, and power corrupts, as does access to the wealth generated by underlings, when there is little accountability.
Plus once leaders can be unseated, we'll have the kind of leaders who'd unseat the leaders we like now.
If GW can makes resources scarce enough to bring out good competition... competition can get very ugly. But without competition, we could just play WoW.
We'll see how it goes.
Yes, his waddle is what tends to attract my mates. It pretty much screams "ignore your rep and gank me, I'm worth it!"
My understanding is that the KILLING shot gets the kill and a chance at loot gets spread across all members of the party that got the killing shot.
Each party member gets (a chance at?) INDIVIDUALIZED random loot and those with a higher knowledge skill in the appropriate category are rolling on a "better" loot table.
Your character doesn't have to get the killing blow, to get loot, if you are the only group fighting the monsters.
Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Hmm, Yeah, I hadn't considered that a group shares a chance at monster loot but doesn't share gathering.
I wonder if gathering was shared, whether I'd be told to stop because I was weighing the party down. :-)
I'm going to have to dwell on this.
The group doesn't have to be all gatherers. We already group sometimes with no gathering bonus. The gatherers fan out for nodes, while the "guards" kill monsters for their (group bonus) loot while exposing the nodes the monsters camp.
I'm just saying its goofy that gatherers don't get the same bonus for grouping that the guards get.
All suggestions that I just want large groups of gatherers to be holding 30% more resources on their husks when I loot them are scurrilous unfounded rumors. ;-)
7. Don't let it get personal. Some of us will exploit that.
Ok, so someone just shot you for mining their favorite coal hex. Don't run PAST your own husk to try and get revenge. You'll just get kited 5 hexes while the gal you chase is having friends loot your husk and another friend meet along your path to unleash on your face as you run by, too transfixed on the gal you are chasing. Assume that everyone is on voice-comms, and learn from experience how long certain groups take to mobilize. Some groups are very very eager to rush to any action, no matter how insignificant.
6. It is easier to mine copper or coal from a husk, than to run all over a hex collecting it.
In all seriousness, though, to new folks, get used to the idea that your gatherer won't always make it home safely. There are certain places where people exert territorial control over nearby resources, even at the expense of rep.
Sometimes, shorter more frequent gathering trips will net you more resources (and your opponents fewer resources) than a long gathering session.
You have to weigh travel time versus doing all that gathering for nothing if/when you get attacked by people who have rule #6 tattooed on the back of their hand.
When I reach my favorite gathering hexes, the first thing I look for are
I have 2 jobs and I have lots of fun in PFO. My mates don't see much of me on weekdays, but I touch base with them and join them for an hour or 2 if they're doing something fun, or just do stuff (like gathering) on my own.
I make sure to gather the stuff we need, and because I'm not on as much as the rest of my mates, I also represent a low maintenance cost for them. For instance, I don't grind through gear as much so I'm less of a burden on the crafters.
It all seems to work out fine for me and I hear no complaints from my mates.
But to only average 2 hours a WEEK, as the O.P. writes about, that's the lowest level of casual I can imagine, and I can't see how the O.P. would even keep track of the game, unless they have many hours to read the web while stuck at work.
If you are a crafter and are worried that crafters will be ahead of you, remember that you can be crafting tier 2 gear in ~45 days, and tier 3 gear isn't showing up for nearly 300 hundred days.
Yes, if they do everything perfectly, the crafters that started first will be the first to pioneer new tier 3 gear into the markets... for a month. While that is a valuable opportunity, it really shouldn't be a deal breaker for late starting crafters.
Armor feats can help you take less damage as well as provide other bonuses (read the keyword descriptions carefully).
However, the gather nekkid philosophy was very popular before husks, because no armor meant no armor durability hit when you died.
Husks may have changed it so that players will want the armor bonuses in order to die less and leave fewer husks.
I'm still gathering both armored and nekkid depending on my mood (including if I'm gathering with a pack of my bloodthirsty combat PvP mates in tow).
Yeah, we'll don our +2 armor to gather coal, cuz that's how we roll. :-)
Currently, if you logout, your character remains and is vulnerable even after it looks like you are gone on the player's video monitor.
I'm proposing a safe logout command that announces that the character is logging safely in chat and through a (glowing?) animation, and has a countdown where other players can object by attacking (but lose rep if they aren't in a sanctioned PvP window).
Upon no attack after x seconds, the character becomes immobile and invulnerable and then logs out.
I don't want logouts to be an escape from attacks, but shooting people as they log in and out because they can't see or control their characters is cheesy.
The old logout mechanics could remain for those who think they are safe, are in a hurry or don't want to draw attention.
I would also like to hear proposals about our vulnerability upon logging in when people are getting shot before they can even see or control their character.
I don't want to play "station games" with the juiciest targets docking up in safety.
If you do get your safe spot because more players want to hide than raid... it should not provide rep or power regain nor allow /trade.
Nor should players be allowed to logout and login another character on an account while they have a character in this safe spot. Otherwise, Destiny's Twin becomes overpowered because you (and your DT mates) always have a fully efficient combat character to rescue your fully efficient crafter. DT has enough advantages already.
And if you get these safe spots, I predict you will find yourselves "caged" by your opponents.
Perfect play will lead to no deaths.
Less than perfect play used to only hurt the character who screwed up.
NOW, less than perfect play can screw up people who were playing perfectly.
I think that is a HUGE mistake for a game that wants social interactions... because you'll see players segregating into elite tiers of play that will tolerate no mistakes from other characters.
If you want a game where choices matter then the choice of sloppy play ought to directly harm the sloppy player, not OTHERS who have chosen precise and careful play.
Before the AI changes players could show tolerance for another player's mistakes.
If devs insist on an AI system that lets a sloppy player harm good players, you're going to wind up with segregation.
MAYBE that's what they want. MAYBE that's what we, as crowdforgers want. But I feel this is EXACTLY the kind of change that should have been DISCUSSED and CROWDFORGED before being implemented. It certainly needs crowdforging NOW.
My opinion is that I like being able to be tolerant (and having others be able to be tolerant) of less than perfect play in PvE.
If that is NOT what we want, I'll adapt; but we ought to be clear about what we want.
I mostly agree that transportation is fine. I just want a way to get the thousands of ore a member thoughtfully mined... 30 hexes away back to our settlement with out spending all of my time in game for weeks moving ore.
Did you say THOUSANDS of coal?
I know at least one standing army that could move that. The Bloody Hand can't be alone in that capacity.
I imagine that all that stands in the way of that coal being in your local bank is the matter of how much of a cut you have to give to whichever army you hire.
You might as well get it moved now, whichever army you hire is one less army that would be trying to intercept your caravan later (if caravans can be intercepted).
The time it takes to do transportation is what creates player encounters and #PFOcontent.
It also allows for some of the territorial control that some of us crave.
I don't want DISTANT opponents node-stripping us and CONVENIENTLY shipping their ill-gotten gains back home.
Of course it works both ways. If I can't find a material locally, then I too will have to transport *my* ill-gotten poaching gains. But I *want* player generated content. I enjoy sneaking/fighting my way through sentries more than I enjoy actually having the stuff I poached show up in my local bank.