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Hello everyone. I am very new to pathfinder (playing only 3 months) and just started society a couple days ago. I have bought all my stuff through hero labs and created my character using it as well. I just went to my second scenario yesterday with my tablet and was inform by the GM that hero labs is frowned upon and that is I have my character "audited" that hero labs is not official. So unless I have physical books or water marked PDFs I can not play and my be kicked from games. Is this statement true? I don't really have the money to buy everything and don't see why I would have to because it would be like buying a second copy. Also I thought that paizo backed hero labs. Can someone clarify to me whats what and if I am going to be kicked from games because I use hero labs.
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I am going to work on the assumption that you are talking about Pathfinder Society here. If this is not the case then disregard.
So to start off the GM you spoke to was correct that having resources on Hero Lab does not count as owning a copy of the material. In order to play using anything beyond the Core Rulebook and the Guide to Organised Play (plus a couple other documents, there is one with some traits that you can download and use) you must own either a physical copy or have a watermarked PDF of the resource. The main reason for this is so that if a question regarding the rules comes up, the GM is able to consult the rules in the actual book or document and make an informed ruling on how things work. Although Hero Lab is generally good with most rules I have encountered situations where I have found an error with it, so I don't like to rely on it.
That said, many GMs are not very strict and as long as they are familiar with the rules for something they are not going to check to make sure you have everything with you. I would say that I don't think that most GMs "frown on" the use of Hero Lab, but some (myself included) prefer if players understand the rules enough to make characters without it and then just use it for tracking status and managing your character.
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Hero Labs is not official. I wouldn't say it's frowned upon as it makes audits much easier and there are much fewer errors in characters that use it.
Just because you bought the package in Hero Labs, doesn't mean you can use it on a PFS character. You do have to have the actual physical copy of the book, or a watermarked PDF with your name on it. If you use things (feats, classes, traits etc.) from books/PDF's do not own, the GM can make you use a pregen characters until you have a legal character.
As far as Paizo backing Hero Labs, I'm not sure what the legal terms are but I believe Hero Labs has a license to use Paizo's copy-written material. They are not partnered in any way further than that.
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Thanks Belafon. Couldn't have said it better myself.Hero Lab is a third party product, and not an approved Additional Resource for PFS play.Which is to say that it is a wonderful tool but possessing a license for a Hero Lab data package is NOT a substitute for having the Additional Resource in print or signed pdf form. Even if you have the "Player Companion #8" package for Hero Lab you must still have a copy of the "Blood of Angels" Paizo book in order to use material from it.
You are still welcome to use Hero Lab to help in creating your character as long as you can derive all your information (AC, saves, skils, hit modifiers, etc.) without it as well - Hero Lab does make some errors. Remember your chronicles are your official records.
Edit: and yes I know I'm quoting myself. That's the post that has Mike Brock's official opinion in it.
Paizo do not "back" Hero Lab in any way.
Lone Wolf Development have a license from Paizo that allows them to create electronic versions of Paizo's rules for use in Hero Lab, in return for a cut of the proceeds. Basically, every time you buy something from LWD that is a Paizo product, Paizo get some of that money.
It's important to note that the license seems to only cover Hero Lab, since LWD are in negotiations regarding the use of material for one of their other products, Realm Works (I won't get into all of the extra stuff about adventure material versus raw rules material here).
As others have said, hardcopy book, or watermarked pdf with your name on it for society play, even if you bought the HL data package.
Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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It should be noted that it is pretty easy to 'disable' the material that you have a HL license for but no books. In character settings, you can uncheck any books you don't have.
In my area, I don't think anyone frowns on using HL. As others said, it makes audits that much easier. You still need the licensed copies of books (I use watermarked PDFs since they are much cheaper and easier to carry) in order to use materials outside the CRB and Bestiary I.
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So now that I know all that money I threw at hero lab is worthless in society, I am assuming if someone I know has hard back copies, even if they photocopied the pages I needed from it, I could not use them because of no watermark. With that said if I do unfortunately have to buy this stuff again, is it better to go PDFs or hard copies
PDFs are cheaper.
There are allowances for sharing books at a table, but if the source isn't present at the table, then your character can't use its options.
So, if your buddy is always there and always has his Ultimate Magic on him, then you can use that book in Society, but if he didn't show up one day then your character wouldn't be legal that day without him and his book.
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Whether or not Hero Lab is "frowned upon" depends on your area. In our region, all the VOs depend on Hero Lab, so there is no chance it will ever get frowned upon. However, Hero Lab is not a substitute for your chronicles and inventory sheets, for knowing the rules, or for having the resources.
Hero Lab is a very useful tool. Like any tool, you have to know how to use it correctly to avoid mishaps. When using Hero Lab for PFS:
1) Make sure you have the correct hero configuration. Select the "Pathfinder Society Character" option, and turn off any resources that you don't have a valid copy of that you could bring to the table.
2) If your character has any validation errors showing, check all of them. If it's actually an error, resolve it. If it's a Hero Lab error, make sure you understand why it's wrong and what the correct value should be.
3) Make sure you understand how and why Hero Lab is calculating all your numbers. Be sure you can explain them to anyone who asks. Go through each of your In Play options and make sure all the adjustments are correct. (The worst thing you can do is say, "I don't know how I got that number--it's just what Hero Lab says." That's the kind of thing that gets Hero Lab "frowned upon".)
4) Pick up Shadow Chemosh's custom adjustment packages from d20PFSRD. Any time you find a discrepancy between your numbers and Hero Lab's numbers, you can use the adjustments to correct them.
5) REPORT BUGS. If you see something wrong in Hero Lab, send in a bug report. Lone Wolf is pretty responsive, and I haven't seen any bugs last more than 1 or 2 updates.
6) Be aware of the implementation choices that affect your character. For example, Hero Lab doesn't automatically adjust for Furious Focus, since it's very situational and only applies to the "first attack" for a round. You have to know that and adjust for Furious Focus manually (or use Chemosh's adjustment package).
7) Keep an "offline" version of your character, maybe even a printed version. Computers crash, so you always want a backup.
If a GM claims that Hero Lab is "not legal", explain that it is at least as legal as any random character tracking spreadsheet available on the Internet (which oddly never get questioned) and that it is less error prone than doing the math in your head. If you have your chronicles and resources, and you can explain how every number was calculated, you shouldn't have any issues.
(Full disclosure: I am not in any way affiliated with Lone Wolf or Hero Lab or Shadow Chemosh. I just appreciate good work when I see it, and I make a living explaining how to use software correctly.)
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Whether or not Hero Lab is "frowned upon" depends on your area. In our region, all the VOs depend on Hero Lab, so there is no chance it will ever get frowned upon. However, Hero Lab is not a substitute for your chronicles and inventory sheets, for knowing the rules, or for having the resources.
Hero Lab is a very useful tool. Like any tool, you have to know how to use it correctly to avoid mishaps. When using Hero Lab for PFS:
1) Make sure you have the correct hero configuration. Select the "Pathfinder Society Character" option, and turn off any resources that you don't have a valid copy of that you could bring to the table.
2) If your character has any validation errors showing, check all of them. If it's actually an error, resolve it. If it's a Hero Lab error, make sure you understand why it's wrong and what the correct value should be.
3) Make sure you understand how and why Hero Lab is calculating all your numbers. Be sure you can explain them to anyone who asks. Go through each of your In Play options and make sure all the adjustments are correct. (The worst thing you can do is say, "I don't know how I got that number--it's just what Hero Lab says." That's the kind of thing that gets Hero Lab "frowned upon".)
4) Pick up Shadow Chemosh's custom adjustment packages from d20PFSRD. Any time you find a discrepancy between your numbers and Hero Lab's numbers, you can use the adjustments to correct them.
5) REPORT BUGS. If you see something wrong in Hero Lab, send in a bug report. Lone Wolf is pretty responsive, and I haven't seen any bugs last more than 1 or 2 updates.
6) Be aware of the implementation choices that affect your character. For example, Hero Lab doesn't automatically adjust for Furious Focus, since it's very situational and only applies to the "first attack" for a round. You have to know that and adjust for Furious Focus manually (or use Chemosh's adjustment package).
7) Keep an "offline" version of your character, maybe even a printed version. Computers crash, so you...
That is all great advice thank you. What PDFs should I be buying?
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Short version: you should have the book (or PDF) of any rule your character uses. If you have an archetype from book X then you need to bring book X. If you have equipment from book Y then you need to bring book Y.
yeah. PDFs are good. Just make sure you print out the non-core pages you are using. This really won't be as many pages as you think.
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I was first introduced to making character with hero labs, and bought that software as well as pdf's to make my characters. Was great for year or so till an experienced player started coming in and found out was using hero labs, and questions every single thing on every one of my characters because he knows use hero labs. Have yet to see him question anyone else, even though there are others there that have been caught with mistakes to their builds. Though he finally did find something that hero labs messed up on, as there was a feat that was only supposed to be usable by orc's, that hero labs listed as usable by anyone.
Really takes the enjoyment out of playing PFS however, when have to keep breaking out the pdf's. Not a fan of 5E but find myself looking for 5E groups just to get away from this.
5e groups probably have ignorant power hungry fools in them too.
This guy is just being a jerk. While Hero Lab definitely has bugs it is much more accurate than any player I have ever seen (most definitely including myself) and a hero Lab sheet is almost certainly going to have less errors than a hand done one
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Advanced Players Guide
Ultimate MAgic
Ultimate Equipment
Ultimate Combat
Advanced Class GuideThese are the main hardbacks.
You do not need all these.
I have just the core and the APG, and I have not yet run out of characters or ideas.Even if you do want everything, you do not have to buy these all at once.
If you are new, I would recommend starting with just core.
After a few months, buy APG.
Then after a few more months buy your next (possibly UC) and months later your next again.
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Hero Lab beats hands written characters any day.
My humble opinion is that a good GM should have all the books he needs to GM and speak with his players prior to the game.
As far as PFS is concerned, I`m not a fan, and to not ignore the elephant in the room I would dare say it: It`s purely to push sales in the player`s throat rather than any other so called rules.
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A cash grab is certainly involved. But It also seems a bit unfair for most of Paizo's work to be sold by a third party company with no profit to Paizo. Paizo has really been fairly ungreedy for a big company, considering how much of their work is freely available on the Internet.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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A couple of things that isn't obvious:
- A Herolab license for a book pays for the labor to code the rules and a little portion goes to Paizo. Insufficient to pay for new books being developed.
- A PDF or physical book pays for new Paizo books to be written.
- PFS is the marketing arm of Paizo, it is what encourages you to buy books.
- Herolab is more accurate in more ways than any paper character I've ever seen someone use.
- Herolab can some time not give you all the information, so you may be prone to interpret a rule incorrectly if you don't look up all the relevant info.
So knowing all that, the best course of action is to buy a Herolab license, buy all the PDF, play PFS using Herolab, and research the rules so you know when the rare case where Herolab is wrong.
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I accept that people use Hero Lab but unfortunately people use it as a crutch. "But Hero Lab says..." is a constant refrain. Hero Lab is not the book and should not replace the book.
I find that system mastery is increased if you actually build the characters yourself. Frankly, I see fewer errors in any character I have ever produced than those any player brings to the table using Hero Lab.
Of course, those players would probably have a greater number of errors if they had NOT used Hero Lab but they have an unreasonable expectation that their characters are 100% accurate.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't dislike Hero Lab, I dislike how some people use it as a crutch rather than learning the rules.
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A cash grab is certainly involved. But It also seems a bit unfair for most of Paizo's work to be sold by a third party company with no profit to Paizo. Paizo has really been fairly ungreedy for a big company, considering how much of their work is freely available on the Internet.
Well, as a gaming group we do own a good dozen of the books, so I feel we did our part. However, during a game, the books stay on the shelves and we mostly use tablet apps, including hero lab.
It is simply faster to do searchs and find rules with an electronic app and leaves more time for the game itself.
I think that if I was playing PFS, I`d simply bring the receipts for all the books I own, so they know I am "Legit" as far as the cash grab goes, and then use the electronic app because I could not be bothered to bring a library with me everytime and search through a dozen paperback book everytime a question arise.
Though he finally did find something that hero labs messed up on, as there was a feat that was only supposed to be usable by orc's, that hero labs listed as usable by anyone.
Off topic but was it Surprise Follow Through? It's listed in the half-orc section of the ARG but is available to anybody. (In that it does not list Half-Orc as a prerequisite.)
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Whoa easy it's just an opinion, not necessarily an elitist thing... I love Hero Lab and could care less about system mastery but when my game group got access to hero lab I saw a marked increase in players showing up with characters and not knowing how the mechanics worked... needing to look things up constantly. Not a slight increase, I mean night and day.
It's kind of like back in the day when most people knew some friends and families phone numbers by heart, but now with cellphones most of us have very few phone numbers memorized.
Doesn't mean we should all throw out our cellphones, it's just a consequence.
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I was first introduced to making character with hero labs, and bought that software as well as pdf's to make my characters. Was great for year or so till an experienced player started coming in and found out was using hero labs, and questions every single thing on every one of my characters because he knows use hero labs. Have yet to see him question anyone else, even though there are others there that have been caught with mistakes to their builds. Though he finally did find something that hero labs messed up on, as there was a feat that was only supposed to be usable by orc's, that hero labs listed as usable by anyone.
Really takes the enjoyment out of playing PFS however, when have to keep breaking out the pdf's. Not a fan of 5E but find myself looking for 5E groups just to get away from this.
5e groups probably have ignorant power hungry fools in them too.
This guy is just being a jerk. While Hero Lab definitely has bugs it is much more accurate than any player I have ever seen (most definitely including myself) and a hero Lab sheet is almost certainly going to have less errors than a hand done one
Most people i know have less errors than herolab but I like it for its speed. I then go back and check for errors.
BTW: @Jeff you are taking that comment out of context. Stop trying to read between the lines when there is no need to.
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I openly admit to being incredibly hostile towards HeroLab. I do not allow it at my tables in PFS. Hearing "I don't know, that's what HeroLab says" is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
That said, few ppl in my area see any reason to use HeroLab, since you effectively have to pay double for any material you use for your characters.
HeroLab is a crutch that contributes to rules atrophy. I've seen new and experienced players fall victim to it. If you feel some unholy need to use it, don't go beyond using it as a character sheet generator.
Other than that, it's really best to be avoided for Society play.
@op yes, your gm is correct in saying owning the sources in herolab and owning the actual sores are different things, and yes you need to have all of the sources that your character pulls from. That said, I've been playing society for quite some time now, and I've only ever been audited one time. I don't mean to say you can get away with not having the sources, but using HeroLab to generate your characters is fine. As long as you take care to note where what you use comes from.
To those who hate/do not allow Herolab: to each their own. When you have over 300 characters built across four home campaigns and society you really need some place to keep them, and herolab does a fabulous job. I don't know where I'd be without it. Most likely buried under a pile of character sheets and certifications.
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And really, Nefreet? Is that the kind of thing you can kick people out of PFS games for?
I didn't say I kick people out of PFS for using HeroLab.
I said I don't allow it at my tables.
And I'm 100% within my right as a GM to do that.
If you only brought a character built with HeroLab, I have every right to not allow that character at my table.
A gm can remove a player from his table for any reason he sees fit. Following that though I would 100% without fail argue that my character is accurate and back it up with the sources were someone to tell me I couldn't play because I use a herolab character sheet, I would then proceed to leave the table, demand my entrance fee for the con back, and post a formal complaint towards the gm with a Venture Captain.
Edit: that's a little over exaggerated. Most likely I would say "okay, your loss." And find another table. We're I refused the right to play at ANY table I would do what I said above.
I would 100% without fail argue that my character is accurate and back it up with the sourcesThat's different from bringing characters solely built via HeroLab (which I've encountered at Conventions).
rather than refuse they play you should take their sheet, look over it, point out errors, and advise they correct the character on a standard sheet, then provide them with a book to use for that session. You as a 4star gm (and VL maybe??) Have a responsibility towards the players you are providing a service towards. The one thing I hate are gms that don't care about the players.
Yeah seems like he has an axe to grind, from where I know not:-)
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Hero Lab does seem to do more harm than good, from what I've seen. For an experienced player who uses it properly, it shaves off a bit of time on their turn; for a new player who never learned to play without it, it leads to numbers going horribly awry as all sorts of modifiers are left behind. People expect to be able to just press a button and have it calculate everything out properly (and with how much the software costs it very well should) but it simply is not that reliable. These new players would still make these mistakes without the software, but it'd be a lot easier to catch if their teammates could watch them calculate out how their character works.
Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus
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I said I don't allow it at my tables.
And I'm 100% within my right as a GM to do that.
If you only brought a character built with HeroLab, I have every right to not allow that character at my table.
I'd like to see some backup for this. I play with Herolab. I know every single feat, trait, spell, every single bonus, every penalty applied to my characters. And yes have every PDF for every book Paizo sells on the same tablet that runs Herolab, also purchased with hard earned cash.
If I pay good money to be in a convention slot, and you say I cannot play at the table because my choice of tool is different from yours, we're having words.
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One of the many reasons I don't play PFS.
And I mean even if ALL ELSE fails the least you could do is offer to let them play a pregen and apply the cert after their character is approved for play. Regardless a player should never be denied a spot at a table unless they're overly unruly or are causing problems for other players in different ways. But I think we've shanghaid this thread long enough. HeroLab: legal, but only in conjunction with the proper sources.
I accept that people use Hero Lab but unfortunately people use it as a crutch. "But Hero Lab says..." is a constant refrain. Hero Lab is not the book and should not replace the book.
I find that system mastery is increased if you actually build the characters yourself. Frankly, I see fewer errors in any character I have ever produced than those any player brings to the table using Hero Lab.
Of course, those players would probably have a greater number of errors if they had NOT used Hero Lab but they have an unreasonable expectation that their characters are 100% accurate.
Edit: Just to clarify, I don't dislike Hero Lab, I dislike how some people use it as a crutch rather than learning the rules.
The rules are bonkers and unclear in a ton of spots.
There are zero people on the planet who know all of pathfinder's rules, so saying "learn the rules" is nonsense
He did not say anything about "knowing all the rules". You also misread his statement.
I openly admit to being incredibly hostile towards HeroLab. I do not allow it at my tables in PFS. Hearing "I don't know, that's what HeroLab says" is like nails on a chalkboard to me.
That said, few ppl in my area see any reason to use HeroLab, since you effectively have to pay double for any material you use for your characters.
HeroLab is a crutch that contributes to rules atrophy. I've seen new and experienced players fall victim to it. If you feel some unholy need to use it, don't go beyond using it as a character sheet generator.
Other than that, it's really best to be avoided for Society play.
While I agree that would annoy me also if someone did not know how their character worked I dont think you are allowed to ban herolab or any other electronic device. What I would do since a player is supposed to bring material backing certain material is have them show me or I would rule how I thought it worked. Then their options are learn the character or get tired of me and go to another GM.
From what I understand a player needs a physical character sheet but you can not remove them for using a program you dont like. You can try to cite something general such as being disruptive but then you need to be more specific and say how they were disruptive. "I don't like it" is not enough or many OP characters could be denied a table.