Forced march ask for constitution save every hour. And he uses it everytime to avoid fatigue.
For over reaction, StabidityDoom kind of touch my beef issue. If you play a campaign setting and there is a single ability to answer any effect, it kills the immersion. Be it weather, elements, ennemies pursuing you for long march, being poisoned in a social event, being starved, suffering from drug addiction, etc. That single abiity answer all circumstances that aren't instaneous with enough rerolls to make them irrelevant. Might as well skip that part.
Also not mentionning the other players feeling useless after seeing their cure blindness spell or abilities vs charm/mind effects not only being specific applications but higher level powers and yet not even close to this ability in power. In fact, this might be the bigger problem.
But I guess this is another discussion, and I am aware there is other cases like this in the game. It is also not an issue in combat, thanks to action economy. The intial question seems answered, thanks.
Ok, let's say curse, blindness / deafness. Theses spells are permanent and do not allow further saves while not affecting the pc swift action. If there was a limitation for the ability to 1 single reroll per effect, maybe. But at 10 times per day, you get a cure disease, cure poison, remove curse, etc. all in one if we are the least honest about the odds of missing 10 rerolls in a row.
The point to elaborate is what is an ongoing effect, I did not find any definite answer on this. I can see spells like hold person, some poison and disease, qualifying for this as they specifically call for a new save.
Can you elaborate please?
Because his position is essentially saying using this lvl 1 domain power on the subject of a temporal stasis ( lvl 8 spell, 5k gold components and permanent) would allow the subject a reroll for each use of the domain power even years after the event ( initial roll ) despite the spell not allowing further saves.
Hi, here is the ability description:
Liberty’s Blessing (Sp): You touch a willing creature as a standard action, granting it a boon. A creature with this boon can, as a swift action, make a saving throw against a single spell or effect it is suffering from that grants a save. The DC of the saving throw is equal to the original DC of the spell or effect. If the saving throw is successful, the effect ends. This boon lasts for 1 minute or until successfully used to remove a spell or effect, whichever duration is shorter. You can use this ability for a number of times equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
We have an arguing on this in our group, about if it’s effect apply before or after a save vs a condition on a character.
My interpretation of the use of this ability is that you need to cast the boon on the person PRIOR to the initial save to use the reroll as a swift action. Or before a subsequent save if it is an ongoing condition granting a new save. In short, pretty much like guidance is used.
The player having this ability says this can be used after any effect (spells, disease or poison ) that initially gave a save, including permament ones and allows as many reroll as he can use this ability ( which is pretty much 10+ per day).
I can’t see a lvl 1 domain ability countering all level of spells , poisons, disease and what not allowing a single saving throw in the game. I need some backup here.
The Skald has draconic disciple written all over it.
You want for traits: magical knack ( +2 caster levels/up to PC level ) and armor expert
This is the basics, but it’s pretty easy to give +6 to hit & dmg to the entire group (+2 inspire courage via cloak/banner, +2 from flagbearer/banner, +2 from Rage). This is a lot of indirect damage, and you still have a rage power of choice to add on top of that.
With a basic 18 strength, considering rage and 4 levels of Dragon disciple, you’d have 26 strength. With a mundane longspear in 2h, power attack with arcane strike, rage and inspire going, it’s 1d8+ 20 dmg without trying. And there is better polearms out there like a fauchard if you spend the feat…
Jeff Merola wrote:
Ok, guess it will require tandem work to get past trippy, creature A will have to stop at 10' at an angle to provide enough cover for B to close in without triggering the reach AOO. ( If I understood correctly that reach attack use ranged attack rules to determine cover, thus if Trippy can't see all 4 corner of B square due to A positioning, there is no aoo )
Worst case, I guess B could bullrush the prone A and move with it. A would still provide cover as B stays in the square behind?
Also, let's say worst case that both creatures get tripped in the same square? What happens? Also, Would a charge prevent the AOO, the table seems to imply charges don't trigger aoo?
Thanks for the info by the way.
I have a question in regard to this. Let's say that Creature A tries to move to attack a reach weapon wielder Trippy with combat reflexes, and trigger the AOO at the 10’ mark, 2 squares away from it’s target and is promptly tripped prone by Trippy.
Then let's say creature B goes through the allied prone creature A square, does creature B gets cover from the AOO reach weapon still threatening that square?
My take on it is that B is closer to that low obstacle and thus gets cover against Trippy. As such B will not trigger the AOO from Trippy since you cannot use an AOO against a target having relative cover from you. Thus B having used it’s ally as cover, close the gap and hit Trippy with a well-deserved blow. Is that right?
To OP, it's true that whoever strikes first probably win. I can't really help with beating an optimized wizard initiative, but you could certainly get iniativet high enough to at least force a roll so it's not an auto lose. Keep in mind that even with initiative, that wizard needs to strike the very first round before you can ready action. So no buff round, no messing around, as it will allow you to play once and ready action ( my own example with rhino charge )
Also, you are tailoring for a specific dedicated purpose: kill mages. While an optimized wizard specifically designed to tackle your character will probably kill him, I can't see all wizards having everything discussed here, unless it's a nemesis or something.
I also think lots of the invincible wizard mechanic revolves around scrying + teleport or invisibility + fly. Scrying is in my opinion the main threath since it really gives your position, however there is ways to protect against it like a room/tent protected by a thin lead sheet. I even found an interesting debate here for lead armor: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rrfw?Adding-a-thin-sheet-of-lead-to-armor
Also, use the environment and game setting. For example, When I do DM, and without considering your specific case, I found the scrying - teleport very annoying but elected to say that wizards are not rarer than any other class, so theses tricks are common and well known by every city. Banks, major Inns, and most fortifications have protection in my setting, so do nobles on their person, be it basic lead sheets in the wall or stronger magical defenses. In fact, you can't teleport directly in any major city in that setting but that's my take on it. All that to say that It's important to understand that making casters a rare occurence only decuplate their power in any setting, while making them common keep them under control.
No ones conceded initiative to the wizard as an automatic thing. Only thing I see is wizard teleporting into the Rhino charge range and getting wacked before even using that swift action as the ready action goes off first.
Anyways, kind of a moot point if you are going to use magic items for initiative on top of the wizard class abilities and prevent any magic items on martial class. It need at least to be no magic items for both opponents.
Cavaliers won't be beaten at riding by a wizard and have more than 2 skills point/lvl, even some fighters archetype actually have more.
The wizard also need a suitable combat trained mount or it's a DC20 ride skill on top of these concentration check you mentioned. Not even mentioning handling annimal. That's a lot of skill specialisation for a wizard that is not in other basic skills.
I'd also look at an optimized intimidate build for this kind of fight, which actually meshes well with cavalier cockatrice order. The antagonise feat would make sure the wizard can't ready an action or use teleport ( as it is not an attack ), which will really put a dent in the caster options. Actually, I'm going to look deeper into this, I remember quite a lot of commotion from casters about the initial version of that feat.
Maze is close range and only useful as ready action in this scenario. Any mounted character worth it's salt counter this with his own ready action using Rhino Charge. At worst, maze provoke a stand off so I'd really not worry about that one.
The wizard could actually get a fast moving mount but good luck casting mounted or while flying, there is a quite a hefty concentration check on that even if the wizard even have the skill ranks in both ride and fly.
Also, I see all this arguments for wizard casting this and that but the fact is that there is an action economy in the game. Each spells is an action, a standard one most the time. It's not like the martial character is not acting on his turn and there is the constant threat for the wizard to be insta impaled by the lance if he drop his guard one second.
The wizard can teleport a limited number of times per day so that is not engaging and disengaging at will, but fair to say he do can it about 3 times if all his spell slot are devoted to that spell. Let’s say he teleport away, buff, scry and teleport back in. That’s a lot of rounds and spells slot used. Meanwhile the cavalier is still ready and have time to take steps to counter the wizard teleporting in. No surprise here, he is battle ready.
Cavalier just have to keep flying, wizard scry, cavalier is moving at full speed, wizard port in off the mark, cavalier moves again and is already far away. The Wizard fly speed don’t allow him to beat the cavalier flying mount speed. Cavalier evades until buffs timer runs off and there we go again. At best, wizard teleport out one last time and pray cavalier can’t track him before nightfall where he can memorize his spells.
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
The wizard doesn't have to get close, they can ready. And if the cavalier is charging that means they have a clear line to the wizard, so they're in plain sight. Most people who refer to the permanently invisible mage are probably referring to the mostly permanent version. Scent only works within 30 feet and takes a move action just to get the direction (so puts you within Short range).
Wait, if the martial class don`t get magic item in this scenario, the wizard also have to be restricted to his spell list and class abilities, no magic items there either thus no perma invisibility. This is class vs class. Celestial armor has fly and getting see invisible item is easy as mentioned. So assume no magic items in both cases.
Rhino charge is also a ready action and have a greater range than maze. If the wizard tries to close in, he get charged. You have a stand off right there and the wizard buffs are on a clock.
Bob Bob Bob wrote:
Maze the mount, laugh as the cavalier plunges to the ground?
Maze has max 75 feet range. The cavalier can cover more than twice than that.
I`d like to see how the mage will close the cavalier to maze him given he probably also have Rhino Charge.
As for initializing combat, Invisibility last max 20 minutes, it`s not like wizard is perma invisible, only objects can be made perma invisible. Remember that scent and tracking does not care if you are invisible or not. It`s also a DC20 perception check to spot the wizard.
Same can be said about fly, it`s not permanent. The wizard probably have to use overland flight to be up there all day which is slow compared to the Gryphon fly speed. This means the cavalier can engage or disengage at will.
This fight is on, we are giving 2 round for the wizard to even cast fly and invisbility to begin with, which is by no means granted. Also, we are litterally tying both arms and legs of the cavalier here y not giving any magic armor/objects. For sure he would normally have a celestial armor, his own invisibility potion, dust of appearance and call it a day.
Flying and Invisibility won’t save a caster alone.
What is going to be problematic is ensuring resists are stellar.
The hardest will be for the cavalier to prepare for no save spell situations but stopping a diving/swooping Gryphon Rider from reaching you in mid-air is not that easy. It is fast happening for the wizard too and he won’t have the luxury of time in this case, flying invisible or not.
For sport, the cavalier could always force the argument on the wizard with a net to get around concealment/miss chances and drag him for a ride through mountains, hitting every sharp rocks on the way. Good luck on concentration checks
What is so hard to understand? You can specify when a ready action happens. Thus it is before or after an opponent action, not while something is resolved. You don’t get to interrupt an ongoing action. Even an immediate action does not allow that and most of the time have a WHEN it can happen.
Also, do please write a better pseudo code, instead of one liner comments, as I hardly believe you got 18 years under your belt if you cannot see the difference between a WHEN and a WHILE.
The trigger condition is an answer to an event. So Before or After as in action then reaction. There is no in between for the Attack action, you attack or you do not. True or false. Code wise, an Attack is a functionality, so is any action.
When building logic, the first thing you do is define variables and functionalities. Here is a quick example, while I did it in 10 min and really simplified the whole thing, it should be enough to illustrate the 2 cases.
10 – NPC Move; (x,y) != Reach or ADJ
TL/DR = Trying to apply 2 steps at the same time will only result in a deadlock and invalidate the trigger. There is a reason in code logic why you need an exit line or counter to get out of loops.
Nah, my wife did 13 years equitation school, obstacles jumping and the like, stairs aren't a problem for a trained horse ( even spiral ones ). It’s in fact easy and there is plenty of videos showing that. The issue would be squeezing if the width is too small, but that is covered by squeeze rules and narrow frame. Might be a "trick" to teach but by rules, stairs don't even count as rough terrain.
For a fantasy reference, just watch LOTR helm’s deep charge all the way from the inner keep or that famous brave heart scene when he barges in the room on his horse. That’s what a RPG is about but that would be another thread.
No worries, I know you did not say there was a rule, was actuallly thanking both of you for the confirmation.
I was hoping to not have to take these steps however, it at least gives me better chance of lowering ressources spent knowing there is no such hard rule. Maybe keeping mout in hosteling armor and pulling it out when needed would be less costly.
For meeting with the King, I'm sure I could make this horse able to talk somehow and give him diplomacy as a class skill so he can be the party face. jk :P
I’m with Docshock on this one, sorry Claxon. I do expect to charge all the time and don’t believe this to be a balancing factor for the class, judging by summoners and druids running around.
I gave a int headband to the horse, won’t be a problem for the trick, thanks for pointing that possible issue. I took Dragon Style and narrow frame for mount feat. Hopefully should be enough to not hear about it anymore.
Thanks for confirming there is no hard rule for this.
Is there a rule that prevent horses from going into dungeons?
Many threads I’ve read seems to assume that you can’t do it but no hard rule is given. This is particularly important for a human cavalier with a horse companion. I would not see a small cavalier or a druid with a large bear being penalised that way.
I can see solutions like Zephyr horse shoes, hosteling armor or feats like dragon style but why should you have to take these in the first place? When needed, squeezing should be ample enough for small passageways in the first place.
Gwen, when I say GM, it`s one of us players DMing 3-4 game sessions then switching to next. I should have mentionned it, would have put some perspective. The events I am reffering to were really unambiguously obvious and not a false perception from my side.
Crusader really have the issue spot on but you also have some good suggestions to solve the issue. I`m ready to dial back but doubt this is fair to me. I also do not see that character without his lance, banner and mount. Rerolling might hurt their feelings a bit but with all the arguing lately, I`ve been a bit rattled.
I`ll see first if swapping archetypes, mounted feats and weapons is doable but I`m affraid it`s heading to reroll. I`ll still keep an eye on theses point in the future, hopefully won`t be a one way street with the rest of the group. Anyways, I guess the topic is kind of adressed now, thank you all again for the advices.
Thanks for the comments,
We did have a chat but they are not honest about it and what they do not like about my PC. Some good suggestions but when I said I took an Hosteling armor to bring my companion in dungeons and Dragon Style for the mount, it was really me burning mount feats to not have to deal with arguing all the time and forcing the GM to play nice ( rough terrain everywhere and tight corridors everywhere is not fun for anyone ). I also do not feel the build is especially amazing, on the contrary, it’s really vanilla.
I understand however what was meant from comments but the character is really about buffing the team first. Going Battle Herald was really to expand the inspire courage range to 60 feets and get the none shall fall command for healing. Saving finale to help party members rerolls failed saves, Timely and gallant inspiration to help them when needed. I really play as a team member but it still allows me to charge most of the time.
The Crusader mentioned that they might feel outshined as in “right now” despite later levels will proves this wrong. This is interesting and might be the real core of the matter. The character as mentioned is very versatile and have an answer to everything. Also mentioned, the Bard is the party face and have many other skills. They might indeed feel like sidekicks now I think of it, even if I don’t think they are.
I’ll try to lay low next game but it really feels like shooting myself in the foot on the long run as they will not hold back once their characters abilities synergizes and kick in. I might as well reroll a character at this point, too many feats invested in being mounted to not use it. Makes me a bit sad, I love that character.
P.S: For my Order of sword cavalier example, it starts at lvl 8: Add mount strength, Pc strength, power attack, dmg from challenge, a +2 lance and multiply the whole thing by 3 on the spirited charge. Not too hard to pull off.
I am having an issue lately in my gaming group playing a Battle Herald. I don’t feel the character is optimized in that department for level 6 but he have spirited charge, so it’s still doing 3d8 + 54 damage ( 3 times 1d8 +18 ) in damage once power attack and other base dmg is figured in.
In short, I get lot of aggro due to my spirited charge damage in what is really your basic 4 Arcane Duelist / 1 Emissary build / 1 vanilla Battle Herald build. But I mean, if I was a pure cavalier with order of the sword, I’d get like 3d8+120 without even trying. I am a bit at a loss here as I even went out of my way providing mainly buffs, heal command and finale spells. I did not take a small race either, it’s really a human with combat horse. I did take boon companion and bodyguard archetype while also raising the horse int to 3+.
Does this look like an overpowered character? I am still trying to wrap my mind around the reasons of such aggro but it poses problem as lately ridiculous situations, purposely engineered to prevent me from charging or getting the mount in dungeons, have happened a lot. I responded by switching my mount to a new one ( that I paid for ) with Dragon Style feat, sacrificing the extra AC the mount gave with bodyguard to counter rough terrain and allies who for some were purposely getting in the way. I even spent all my remaining gold in an hosteling fullplate ( My bard spells are all immediate or verbal, no somatic ).
So ya, last sessions were tense in what is normally a long running group. I rationalize that maybe this is due to having recently started a new campaign with most of pathfinder content, sinc we used only the core books before. Still, spirited charge is core. Maybe it’s because the horse is not easy to kill anymore? Lot of the other characters are dex based or casters or do not have their second BaB attack yet. Maybe they can’t see the long progression curve? Or maybe it’s all the swift/immediate and move actions at my disposal that makes the character versatile action economy wise? There is also the mount, with inspire courage, it does hit like a truck at this level.
From my perspective, most of their characters should leave mine in the dust by lvl 9 in their specialized areas but they don’t see it that way. Really, my character is a glorified bard at the end of the day with 18 str and 16 cha. The only bright side and why we are kind of at a status quo is because of Inspire courage and other spells/buffs the character gives to everyone on top of it all. Anyone got a solution for me? I could offer to change the cavalier archetype and give up all 3 spirited charge feats line but that’s not too honest since I can see spirited charge losing steam pretty soon even if they don’t see it.
Thanks for any advice.
Well, if I read armor spikes, seems you can't use them if the off-hand was used to make another attack. I'd say Blade boot also fall under that scenario due to the offhand description. Thoses are attacks that do not even use the off-hand itself so for a cestus attack, seems even more unlikely.
The only things I could see working is an unarmed strike like a kick. Maybe being mounted, using a lance one handed to free the off-hand, like shield bashing?
With enlarge, I would personally only use a Spear and a Quickdraw shield. Quickdraw feat as well as two weapon fighting to go along with the shield bash feat line. You can throw the spear as a Pillum if needed ( Fits the classical era Roman soldier ) and draw your two-handed Lucerne Hammer or longspear. Should solve most of your action economy issues.
I thought I would point out some stuff and why I think 10` reach is enough:
Why not using a lvl 3 halfling cavalier?
- Honor guard archetype, gets an improved bodyguard feat.
Just need helpful trait and the feat combat reflexes. Depending how you interpret the different abilities stacking, this provide either +6 or +10 AC to your BBEG. I lean heavily toward the 10 AC but that is another discussion.
In all cases, at that level, should make it very hard to ignore the bodyguard. Especially considering that aid allies gives that bodyguard the ability to also boost the saving throws of the BBEG, which he should spent his standard action on instead of attacking the pcs if there is spells flying around.
- Helpful is a trait that boost aid another from +2 to +4
A feat in my book should be more powerful than a trait. Especially when taking into consideration the feat: extra traits. This tells us that a feat is worth 2 traits.
Also, if look at order of cockatrice, the same feat slot is dazzling display as a standard action and without pre-requisite. A simple +1 on aid another would not even be close to compare with that.
Now, I would tend to say helpful does not stack with aid allies or swift aid.
However, if you want to go this route, I`d suggest looking at Gloves of Arcane Striking and benevolant armor. Coupled with helpful, can get easily to +6 and up.
It`s 3 feats for mounted shield, you need a shield proficiency and shield focus.
I could see it working RAW, would give 2AC from shield ally and 1AC from shield focus, so 3AC to the Eidolon if you ride it.
Might as well cast shield spell for a 5AC base shield ( which won`t stack with shield ally ).
Easier solution, combat reflex / bodyguard / Extra trait adopted + Halfling helpful trait.
RAI: I`m pretty sure you need a physical shield
A cash grab is certainly involved. But It also seems a bit unfair for most of Paizo's work to be sold by a third party company with no profit to Paizo. Paizo has really been fairly ungreedy for a big company, considering how much of their work is freely available on the Internet.
Well, as a gaming group we do own a good dozen of the books, so I feel we did our part. However, during a game, the books stay on the shelves and we mostly use tablet apps, including hero lab.
It is simply faster to do searchs and find rules with an electronic app and leaves more time for the game itself.
I think that if I was playing PFS, I`d simply bring the receipts for all the books I own, so they know I am "Legit" as far as the cash grab goes, and then use the electronic app because I could not be bothered to bring a library with me everytime and search through a dozen paperback book everytime a question arise.
Hero Lab beats hands written characters any day.
My humble opinion is that a good GM should have all the books he needs to GM and speak with his players prior to the game.
As far as PFS is concerned, I`m not a fan, and to not ignore the elephant in the room I would dare say it: It`s purely to push sales in the player`s throat rather than any other so called rules.