Is hero lab allowed?


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Robert Hetherington wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
thejeff wrote:
And really, Nefreet? Is that the kind of thing you can kick people out of PFS games for?

I didn't say I kick people out of PFS for using HeroLab.

I said I don't allow it at my tables.

And I'm 100% within my right as a GM to do that.

If you only brought a character built with HeroLab, I have every right to not allow that character at my table.

Actually you aren't well within you rights.

I think you missed the original message here.

nefreet wrote:
1st, if you show up at my table using HeroLab, you're getting audited and book-checked. In my experience thus far, that means I've turned away 100% of characters relying on HeroLab. I am completely within my right as a GM to do this.
He's saying every time a player has showed up to his table running HeroLab on a laptop and not having a paper sheet, he has asked them to provide sources for their additional resource material. 100% of the time the player has been unable to, and thus Nefreet has properly refused their character a seat.

He said that in a post after the one I replied to.

However, its still a very hostile attitude to take. That if I sit down with a completely legal character, with all my resources, but happen to be using the Hero lab app on my tablet or full program on my lap top, that he's going to immediately ask to audit my character.

How is it any different than if I print out my character sheet from Hero Labs and show up with a printed sheet? Its still 100% Hero Labs with my PDFs on my tablet to show ownership.

I'd willingly show him my resources. But if I detected a hostile attitude because I showed up with a hero lab character sheet, I'd be tempted to find another table.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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thejeff wrote:

In fairness, even with characters I've built by hand, I probably wouldn't be able to lay out all the numbers on the spur of the moment. Especially if I hadn't just built the character or played him recently. Or if he was fairly high level and I'd just been adding on to the existing character as I went.

Generally speaking, I'm the same way. I'd have to fumble around to tell you why my paladin has an AC of 28. But my Magus, with the AC of 37? That I have all broken down and ready to explain. (The same thing with the paladin's Intimidate of +25.)

The spectacular stuff, that's what I'm talking about.


Galnörag wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Note: in my groups (home groups, I don't play PFS anymore) the entire group decides on the character sheet to be used so that everyone is using the same sheet. I have players using Hero Lab but they have to transfer the information to the sheet the group is using.

Side thread, or thread derail, but might I ask why as a group you agree to some character sheet standard? Even as a GM that isn't a fight I'd want to have with my players, as a player I couldn't imagine caring what character sheet everyone was using.

Because when each player has radically different character sheet layouts helping them find out where their bonuses are coming from takes significantly more time. This is not just the GM side, but players helping players.

Fellow players can help each other far easier if they understand the sheet they are looking at. The same holds for the GM looking at a player's sheet.


But if we don't take things out of context the Overheard In Paizo thread wouldn't be nearly as interesting...


Just a note which may have been brought up, but Paizo gets a cut of every Pathfinder source for their books.

And do you feel that PCGen has the same issues? If not, why not?


trollbill wrote:
Gauss wrote:

I do object to people not knowing the rules because they didn't properly look them up when building a character with Hero Lab.

However, that is not an issue with Hero Lab, that is an issue with the player improperly using it as a crutch and a source.

Here's the problem I have with this. I find the concept that; "If you remove the system mastery crutches from players who do not put a high level of importance on system mastery they will respond by increasing their system mastery," to be a fallacy. In my experience, trying to force people to increase their system mastery simply gets them to leave PFS.

System mastery requires effort. When the level of effort a player puts into PFS exceeds the fun they get out of it, they stop playing. Each player has a different level of effort at which that point is reached.

In my local area, I would say over half the players do not put a high level of importance into system mastery. I have seen the following 'crutches' used:

1) Hero Lab
2) Only ever play pregens
3) Have another person create/level their character either in whole or in part
4) Use builds off of various optimization forums
5) Only play Core characters

Out of the above, I would say #3 is the most common. Regardless, however, if I were to remove Hero Lab from this list, the only result that would come from this is the players who use that crutch would either stop playing or simply switch to another crutch. Few, if any, would try to strive to increase their system mastery.

Now I am sure it could be said that if these people aren't willing to increase their system mastery, then good riddance, but at least in my case, my local player base is not so huge it could survive loosing all of its casual players. So if I have to put up with some 'lazy' players so that the more dedicated ones get to play, then so be it.

Of course, even my generosity along these lines has its limits. I can think of at least two players I lost because, after months of cajoling them to...

I don't care if people use Hero Lab or not. I care if they understand how their character works. You are correct there are other means for them to acquire a character and still not know how it works. But, in my experience, it is only the Hero Lab users that I have seen adamantly claim that their character is 100% correct when it is not because...Hero Lab is always right.

If someone builds a character incorrectly I am ok with that, I will show them why they are wrong. What I am tired of is Hero Lab users arguing for half an hour that they are right because Hero Lab says so when it is clearly against the rules.

Again, it is not Hero Lab's problem, the problem is that *some* people think Hero Lab is infallible.


They'd probably argue regardless.


havoc xiii, the core of their argument was "Hero Lab says". Removing this seemingly pervasive idea that Hero Lab is infallible (not removing Hero Lab itself) would fix a lot of the problem that I have with some people who use Hero Lab.

Frankly, I have the same problem whenever someone quotes D20PFSRD. It is not a rules source any more than Hero Lab is.
But, people don't pay for D20PFSRD and so do not have the same kind of emotional reaction when you say it isn't accurate.

Sovereign Court

So basically - it may be a matter where correlation doesn't equal causality.

The gamers who will be annoying and argue that their wrong rule is right are the kind who use HeroLab, but that doesn't necessarily mean that HeroLab was the cause of them being the kind of gamer who is annoying are argues that their wrong rule is right. (I'm not saying that all people who use HeroLab are that sort of player - inferring that would be a logical fallacy. :P)


I think some people just like to argue. At my job we used to carry milkshakes, we have since stopped. Though that doesn't stop people from "correcting" me by telling me its on the menu when I inform them that we regrettably no longer carry the shakes.

Scarab Sages 1/5

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TOZ wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
1st, if you show up at my table using HeroLab, you're getting audited and book-checked. In my experience thus far, that means I've turned away 100% of characters relying on HeroLab. I am completely within my right as a GM to do this.
Bring it, ya nancy!

Aye, bring it.

I've already mentioned up thread that I bought the tablet for my PDF's. If you want to waste 30 minutes checking all my references, It won't be me that is upset, it will be the rest of the table.

I'll even point out where Herolab is inaccurate for you.

Sovereign Court

havoc xiii wrote:
I think some people just like to argue. At my job we used to carry milkshakes, we have since stopped. Though that doesn't stop people from "correcting" me by telling me its on the menu when I inform them that we regrettably no longer carry the shakes.

Why did you stop? They brought all the boys to the yard!

But that was my point. I was just suggesting there may be a correlation to those sort of people and those who buy HeroLab.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5

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Sorry to the Luddites, but there's going to be more mobile devices at your tables as time passes, not less.

System mastery is a terrible reason to use against HeroLab. Just the other day, I had to look up the mechanical effects of being dazzled while GMing an online game. When I'm playing, I get a really fast answer by looking at the condition in HeroLab and it adjusts all the appropriate places automatically. I don't think there's any way I could play my master chymist without HeroLab due to the variety of buffs and modifiers he has going all the time, typically four to eight different ones.

I pay close attention to how HeroLab works and what it's giving me for numbers. All the same mistakes that can happen with it are the same ones that can happen with a paper sheet.


Charon's Little Helper, I never once indicated that Hero Lab was the cause of any of this.

Unfortunately people keep assuming that my comments are in some way an indictment of Hero Lab.

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Gauss,

That's because there are only two positions, "Folks who agree with me" and "Folks who are wrong."

We are not a subtle people.

Sovereign Court

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Gauss wrote:

Charon's Little Helper, I never once indicated that Hero Lab was the cause of any of this.

Unfortunately people keep assuming that my comments are in some way an indictment of Hero Lab.

I realize that. I didn't say that you did. I was actually trying to focus the conversation to some amount of agreement between the two sides.

Silly me - trying to stop an internet fight. :P


Gauss wrote:

I don't care if people use Hero Lab or not. I care if they understand how their character works. You are correct there are other means for them to acquire a character and still not know how it works. But, in my experience, it is only the Hero Lab users that I have seen adamantly claim that their character is 100% correct when it is not because...Hero Lab is always right.

If someone builds a character incorrectly I am ok with that, I will show them why they are wrong. What I am tired of is Hero Lab users arguing for half an hour that they are right because Hero Lab says so when it is clearly against the rules.

Again, it is not Hero Lab's problem, the problem is that *some* people think Hero Lab is infallible.

People who are not just wrong, but arrogantly wrong are definitely obnoxious. Whether they cite HeroLab or spend 15 minutes paging through rulebooks looking for that quote they're sure proves them right.

Still, how often does this really happen? From some of the posts here I get the impression that HeroLabs is just so horribly broken that you basically can't make a correct character using it?
What kind of errors are you seeing in? Basic chargen errors or mostly in the on-the-fly buffs? How prevalent are they?
And do they get fixed? I know Herolabs updates pretty frequently. Maybe they're just trying to keep up with new content and ignoring bug fixes?

Similarly with d20pfsrd. I know it's not an official rules source and has some issues with having to strip out non-OGL content, but is it really so broken you can't use it?

5/5 5/55/55/5

thejeff wrote:
Similarly with d20pfsrd. I know it's not an official rules source and has some issues with having to strip out non-OGL content, but is it really so broken you can't use it?

No. d20pfsrd is more right/up to date/ has the faq that faqratt...erm. clarifies than the core rules in the side bar at least as often as they mess something up. But I can see where a new person would not notice the third party thing and mess that up. If you're doing archtypes alacart you almost need d20pfsrd's chart.


Mike Bohlmann wrote:
I don't think there's any way I could play my master chymist without HeroLab[...]

Mind. Blown.


thejeff wrote:
Gauss wrote:

I don't care if people use Hero Lab or not. I care if they understand how their character works. You are correct there are other means for them to acquire a character and still not know how it works. But, in my experience, it is only the Hero Lab users that I have seen adamantly claim that their character is 100% correct when it is not because...Hero Lab is always right.

If someone builds a character incorrectly I am ok with that, I will show them why they are wrong. What I am tired of is Hero Lab users arguing for half an hour that they are right because Hero Lab says so when it is clearly against the rules.

Again, it is not Hero Lab's problem, the problem is that *some* people think Hero Lab is infallible.

People who are not just wrong, but arrogantly wrong are definitely obnoxious. Whether they cite HeroLab or spend 15 minutes paging through rulebooks looking for that quote they're sure proves them right.

Still, how often does this really happen? From some of the posts here I get the impression that HeroLabs is just so horribly broken that you basically can't make a correct character using it?
What kind of errors are you seeing in? Basic chargen errors or mostly in the on-the-fly buffs? How prevalent are they?
And do they get fixed? I know Herolabs updates pretty frequently. Maybe they're just trying to keep up with new content and ignoring bug fixes?

Similarly with d20pfsrd. I know it's not an official rules source and has some issues with having to strip out non-OGL content, but is it really so broken you can't use it?

I have bolded the problem in your quote, you are taking peoples statements and subscribing values to them that are not stated.

When I posted my comment regarding my dislike of how *certain* people use Hero Lab it was a simple comment. There was no corresponding statement regarding it's frequency or prevalence.

People have a tendency to read more into statements than is actually there. Doing that with my posts is particularly problematic because I sterilize them to the point that there is nothing behind them but what is stated. Simply put, there is nothing behind my statements except that which I state.

As for the errors, both. As for prevalence, each and every session.
However, they are almost always user errors (which is what I have stated all along).

As for d20pfsrd, there are significant errors. For example, the 3.5 rules exception was in the d20pfsrd for years before anyone noticed. People just accepted it as 'fact' even though it was a violation of the rules (at the time).

I will state this again (and again, and again, and again), the problem is not that d20pfsrd and Hero Lab are 'broken'. It is that there is an unreasonable expectation of accuracy.


Gauss wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Gauss wrote:

I don't care if people use Hero Lab or not. I care if they understand how their character works. You are correct there are other means for them to acquire a character and still not know how it works. But, in my experience, it is only the Hero Lab users that I have seen adamantly claim that their character is 100% correct when it is not because...Hero Lab is always right.

If someone builds a character incorrectly I am ok with that, I will show them why they are wrong. What I am tired of is Hero Lab users arguing for half an hour that they are right because Hero Lab says so when it is clearly against the rules.

Again, it is not Hero Lab's problem, the problem is that *some* people think Hero Lab is infallible.

People who are not just wrong, but arrogantly wrong are definitely obnoxious. Whether they cite HeroLab or spend 15 minutes paging through rulebooks looking for that quote they're sure proves them right.

Still, how often does this really happen? From some of the posts here I get the impression that HeroLabs is just so horribly broken that you basically can't make a correct character using it?
What kind of errors are you seeing in? Basic chargen errors or mostly in the on-the-fly buffs? How prevalent are they?
And do they get fixed? I know Herolabs updates pretty frequently. Maybe they're just trying to keep up with new content and ignoring bug fixes?

Similarly with d20pfsrd. I know it's not an official rules source and has some issues with having to strip out non-OGL content, but is it really so broken you can't use it?

I have bolded the problem in your quote, you are taking peoples statements and subscribing values to them that are not stated.

When I posted my comment regarding my dislike of how *certain* people use Hero Lab it was a simple comment. There was no corresponding statement regarding it's frequency or prevalence.

People have a tendency to read more into statements than is actually there. Doing that with my...

Fair enough. I'm sorry I read more into it than you meant, but I really was trying to get an idea of how bad the problem was, which is why I asked. There have also been other posters mentioning problems with HeroLab, so although I replied to you, it was something of an open question.

So, every session, but very rarely actually something wrong with Herolab, if I understand you correctly?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I agree with the sentiment that you're going to find alot more errors on sheets done by each individual. Hero lab was tested, then as people find and report errors (I have done that), the errors are corrected. A group of people (the non-hero-lab-nay-sayers) are making Hero Lab better at interpreting the rules. The rules interpretation of the all the individuals at a con would be ALL over the place in terms of quality.

I have more resources in hero lab than I own, but if I use a feature, I buy the PDF. Hero lab is excellent advertising for Paizo. Had I not found some feat or trait using hero lab I would never have bought many of the resources I have.

So, I use hero-lab, it's awesome. I bring it on an iPad, which also contains as a PDF any resource I use from hero lab. I also have printed copies of my character (as created by hero lab).

I make sure I understand what hero lab is doing and where any adjustments are coming from.

But the example of someone losing 4 on their CMD because they still had Power Attack checked is they same as the forgotten bless bonus, or any of a gazzilian other situation modifiers that may or may not be being considered by the pen and paper users.

It's a complex game and I am fairly confident every person in every session makes at least one mistake. I am also fairly confident Hero Lab lowers the number of mistakes being made. So, sure, if you focus on auditing and questioning the hero lab users, you're going to find mistakes, just as if you focus on auditing the non-hero lab users.

I think I would focus more on enjoyment of the game then trying to abolish a popular tool, that, as I've said, has caused me to buy MORE Paizo product. I know my enjoyment of a Con will be severely hampered when someone turns me away from a table because of the tools I choose to use even though I am meeting every published requirement of being at the table.

(As an aside I have played with Nafreet as a GM at PaizoCon and he did a wonderful job as GM, and handled a rules interpretation issue well ... along the "let's move on and enjoy the game" vein, the characters failed but the players enjoyed themselves. I would not welcome a Hero Lab confrontation however.)


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I don't use HL I make a paper and pencil character sheet on a printed paizo sheet.

I would probably walk away from a table where a gm wanted to audit my character sheet without first having started play and then having a +87 to attack with my lvl 1 wizard or a bunch of other glaringly obvious errors.

I think i have most of my pdfs loaded in to my phone but a gm checking my watermark or even requiring to see them is a jerk move. If you are gming you are not paizos copyright police. Your job is to officiate a game. I understand the need to have a legitimate source of the rules should any questions come up about it but generally we can look all those things up if needed. The point of society play is to promote the game. Try to make it fun for all involved. If you don't like herolabs you should inform the player that they need to have printouts hard-copies or watermarked pdfs for legal pfs play but really you should let them play their character as long as it is using legal pfs material.
Someone who has a good time playing will help further promote the game and drive sales.

I see a lot of people trashing d20pfsrd on here but frankly i have seen it be more accurate, up to date and easy to use than anyone that totes around 87 lbs of books or searching through tons of different pdfs. I have had people point out things that were "wrong" on d20pfsrd because their book says so and it's official then we go look up the errata and guess what the book was wrong the whole time.

Out of the pfs games I've played i think i had only 1 gm ever question an ability i had. I pulled it up on d20pfsrd and he said that isn't a legitimate source but read it on there anyway and we were able to see the source book for it which someone else had on them and we didn't even bother to double check the book with the website info we just needed the full description to figure out wtf it did in x situation which was answered just fine with d20pfsrd.

players definitely should take the time to figure out how their characters work, if you take strength damage you should know what that will effect. The purpose of this rule to organized play is so that gms have access to a correct source of rules if a question arises not checking to make sure people bought the books.

Dark Archive 5/5

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↑ sounds like someone has something to hide...


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wellsmv wrote:
↑ sounds like someone has something to hide...

I only have one pfs character and do have all the books/pdfs that went in to making it but i don't make sure to bring them all with me to a game.

I have had cats pee on a book and it goes in the trash some pdfs are on my home computer but haven't been transferred to my phone as well. I have had my phone die and thus i wouldn't have the pdf with me. if there was only one open seat and i had a jerk for a gm i'd probably just play a pregen but that doesn't change the fact that the gm is being a jerk and might turn some people off to the game.


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Obo wrote:
I think i have most of my pdfs loaded in to my phone but a gm checking my watermark or even requiring to see them is a jerk move. If you are gming you are not paizos copyright police. Your job is to officiate a game.

GMs in PFS are specifically tasked with these duties. Yes, they are Paizo's copyright police, as you put it. You agree to PFS's conditions to play. You're the jerk for trying to ignore those rules in addition to feeling justified for doing so.


thejeff wrote:
Gauss wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Gauss wrote:

I don't care if people use Hero Lab or not. I care if they understand how their character works. You are correct there are other means for them to acquire a character and still not know how it works. But, in my experience, it is only the Hero Lab users that I have seen adamantly claim that their character is 100% correct when it is not because...Hero Lab is always right.

If someone builds a character incorrectly I am ok with that, I will show them why they are wrong. What I am tired of is Hero Lab users arguing for half an hour that they are right because Hero Lab says so when it is clearly against the rules.

Again, it is not Hero Lab's problem, the problem is that *some* people think Hero Lab is infallible.

People who are not just wrong, but arrogantly wrong are definitely obnoxious. Whether they cite HeroLab or spend 15 minutes paging through rulebooks looking for that quote they're sure proves them right.

Still, how often does this really happen? From some of the posts here I get the impression that HeroLabs is just so horribly broken that you basically can't make a correct character using it?
What kind of errors are you seeing in? Basic chargen errors or mostly in the on-the-fly buffs? How prevalent are they?
And do they get fixed? I know Herolabs updates pretty frequently. Maybe they're just trying to keep up with new content and ignoring bug fixes?

Similarly with d20pfsrd. I know it's not an official rules source and has some issues with having to strip out non-OGL content, but is it really so broken you can't use it?

I have bolded the problem in your quote, you are taking peoples statements and subscribing values to them that are not stated.

When I posted my comment regarding my dislike of how *certain* people use Hero Lab it was a simple comment. There was no corresponding statement regarding it's frequency or prevalence.

People have a tendency to read more into statements than is actually there.

...

Thank you for the apology, and yes, it is my experience that it is more user error than system error.

Note: I include user expectations of functionality in with user error. Ie. if someone expects Hero Lab to work a certain way and it doesn't (thus producing an error) that is user expectation rather than system error.

Dark Archive 5/5

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Uwotm8 wrote:
Obo wrote:
I think i have most of my pdfs loaded in to my phone but a gm checking my watermark or even requiring to see them is a jerk move. If you are gming you are not paizos copyright police. Your job is to officiate a game.
GMs in PFS are specifically tasked with these duties. Yes, they are Paizo's copyright police, as you put it. You agree to PFS's conditions to play. You're the jerk for trying to ignore those rules in addition to feeling justified for doing so.

Some like myself.. i am just a jerk.. and like catching cheaters


Obo, d20pfsrd is a great resource but it is not a rules source. I use it to find a rule (as if it were an index) and then I look it up in the appropriate book (I use PDFs so that they are always up to date).

As for it's accuracy, it is generally accurate but not always so. It (incorrectly) used the 3.5 reach weapon exception for 3 years before the error was noticed.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Gauss wrote:

Obo, d20pfsrd is a great resource but it is not a rules source. I use it to find a rule (as if it were an index) and then I look it up in the appropriate book (I use PDFs so that they are always up to date).

As for it's accuracy, it is generally accurate but not always so. It (incorrectly) used the 3.5 reach weapon exception for 3 years before the error was noticed.

And wound up being right in the end.

Silver Crusade

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What have I done!!!! What have I created!!!! God how did my question fall so low to the rage within these people. I didn't realize how this would just turn into a I hate you, you hate me thing. God save us all!

5/5 5/55/55/5

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Jeremy Coppersmith wrote:
What have I done!!!! What have I created!!!! God how did my question fall so low to the rage within these people. I didn't realize how this would just turn into a I hate you, you hate me thing. God save us all!

Hello, and welcome to the forums!

*ow ow ow ow* i was kidding *ow ow ow * put the duck dow *ow ow ow*

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Hi, Obo.

Obo wrote:
I would probably walk away from a table where a gm wanted to audit my character sheet ...

That's your right.

Quote:
I think i have most of my pdfs loaded in to my phone but a gm checking my watermark or even requiring to see them is a jerk move. If you are gming you are not paizos copyright police. Your job is to officiate a game.

Actually, it's my job to do both. If you were my only player, or I were your only GM, I would be a lot more relaxed about enforcement, but I also have a responsibility to the other players at the table (Why should they have to buy legal copies of additional resources if you don't?) and to the next GM you play under (If I don't check your sources, and he does, then suddenly he's a jerk for trying to follow the rules; if I check, too, then e have a culture of responsibility, and it makes life easier for him).

Quote:
The point of society play is to promote the game. Try to make it fun for all involved.

Let me say something that isn't directed at you. Generally speaking, I have learned to deeply distrust that justification. I've seen it applied to people who threw away their Chronicle sheets (because keeping all that paperwork gets in the way of the fun), to people who play all manner of cool, but disallowed races (because playing a cyborg is fun), and to people who have never used the Inventory Tacking Sheet (because it wasn't fun). Do you have a better argument?

Quote:
I see a lot of people trashing d20pfsrd on here but frankly i have seen it be more accurate, up to date and easy to use than anyone that totes around 87 lbs of books or searching through tons of different pdfs. I have had people point out things that were "wrong" on d20pfsrd because their book says so and it's official then we go look up the errata and guess what the book was wrong the whole time.

I used to love using d20pfsrd. It was my go-to place for accurate, up-to-date Pathfinder rules. Then they lost the right to use Paizo's IP, and the site became useless. (It's not a question of errata. Look up Aldori Swordlord there.) Nowadays, I can recommend Archives of Nethys, but that's not as easy to navigate through.

Quote:
i had only 1 gm ever question an ability i had. I pulled it up on d20pfsrd and he said that isn't a legitimate source but read it on there anyway and we were able to see the source book for it which someone else had on them and we didn't even bother to double check the book with the website info we just needed the full description to figure out wtf it did in x situation which was answered just fine with d20pfsrd.

Did you have a legal source on you? It sounds like you were looking at the book owned by somebody else at the table. If I were the GM, that wouldn't cut it. You wouldn't be allowed to use that ability.

Peace be with you.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Obo wrote:
I would probably walk away from a table where a gm wanted to audit my character sheet without first having started play and then having a +87 to attack with my lvl 1 wizard or a bunch of other glaringly obvious errors.

Thats going to get you a reputation rather quickly, kind of like pulling a bootlegger turn as soon as you see a police roadblock.

If I ask to see a sheet, its usually because I want to see what I'm in for. What does your character do, how to they work, and most importantly for me as a DM what do I have to work with with your character. If I"m playing I may see archer number 843 shooting hails of arrows into the air. But if I look at your character sheet and see you're a ranger when you come across the angry momma bear I can save myself a few minutes of initiative by asking if your ranger would like to do something about that.
If I see that you went and put ranks in architecture and engineering something about the building might look funny etc.

I have also had people try to play kobolds and catfolk. While you may not be one of those people, the dm doesn't know that unless they know you. You are not Obo when you sit down at a table, you're random person 487 today.

With everything going through a DMs head pregame something needs a giant red flag to be seen. If a mistake is that obvious you want it found.

Sovereign Court 5/5 5/5

Uwotm8 wrote:
Mike Bohlmann wrote:
I don't think there's any way I could play my master chymist without HeroLab[...]
Mind. Blown.

Howso? I should probably have included the words "without making mistakes" or "and still enjoy playing the character".


chris i am pretty sure i had the pdf in my phone but between it loading up and scrolling through it or having to dig out the book and figure out where it was in there when we already had the simple answer in front of us it would have just detracted from the game and the enjoyment of all.

As for the fun bit it's not an excuse for playing forbidden races or not having chronicles just kind of trying to bring things in to perspective at the end the party has killed a bunch of s~%& and gets a chronicle and we had fun. checking my id against the watermark on the pdf to make sure i paid for it is just sort of absurd.

norse wolf taking a glance at my sheet or asking me what kind of character im playing or even asking how my wizard has a +87 attack is not really what i would consider auditing nitpicking through it and asking for a source on everything just seems like a waste of time. Ok so you are unfamiliar with x feat we can pull that up.

You guys seem like good gms and thanks for taking the time to do it just trying to make the point to keep it light. Notice those who have chimed in to say yet another reason they won't do pfs just try to keep that in mind sometimes instead of bogging down a game. Again the point of the rule is to ensure there is a reference for the rules in case there is some question about them not to ensure they were paid for. and yes it is dishonest thievery to play without having paid for the sources.


I just discovered the joys of Hero Lab over the holidays. I've never played a PFS game - yet - so I never knew the rules.

I have all the books I need as well so none of this will be an issue for me.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

Herolab is a great tool yes, but one of its recent updates completely screwed up my Gunslinger who now has a single attack at level 11 and wont update to show deadly aim or multiple attacks of rapid shot no matter how many times I remake the character. Sigh.

Its also getting to be a very big program.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
Schtuff

You have the authority to audit character sheets.

You have the authority to prohibit players from using rules from sources for which they do not have present at the table.
You do not have the authority to prohibit a player from using Hero Lab as their character sheet.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Brother Fen wrote:

I just discovered the joys of Hero Lab over the holidays. I've never played a PFS game - yet - so I never knew the rules.

I have all the books I need as well so none of this will be an issue for me.

It would be an issue if you showed up at the table, plopped down all your books, as well as your Hero Lab generated character sheet (or tablet/computer), and be prohibited from the table solely because you used Hero Lab.

Edit: And what was actually said earlier by one GM is that he would single you out for an audit because you used Hero Lab and he was confident he would find a mistake and thus refuse you from playing.

I guess I'll just have a scribbled copy of my Hero Lab sheet as a back up from now on ... throw in a few mistakes to make it an "authentic" hand created character. :)


I've tried HeroLab some (just the trial version or the setup they had at GenCon). To me it's a great tool to help make a nice looking character sheet with all your numbers shown. But that's about it.

I doubt I'll ever fully buy HeroLab simply because I tend to play Society games, and I really don't want to pay twice for the same material. If HeroLab could work something out with Paizo, so that anyone that bought a hardcover book got a percentage off the datapack of that book, I might look more into it.

But HeroLab isn't needed to create a character, but it shouldn't be something that GM use as a sign to turn people away either.

Scarab Sages 1/5

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RyanH wrote:
Brother Fen wrote:

I just discovered the joys of Hero Lab over the holidays. I've never played a PFS game - yet - so I never knew the rules.

I have all the books I need as well so none of this will be an issue for me.

It would be an issue if you showed up at the table, plopped down all your books, as well as your Hero Lab generated character sheet (or tablet/computer), and be prohibited from the table solely because you used Hero Lab.

Heck, it would be an issue if many of us simply plopped all our books on the table.

No room left for the map and most tables won't support that much weight.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Obo, d20pfsrd is a great resource but it is not a rules source. I use it to find a rule (as if it were an index) and then I look it up in the appropriate book (I use PDFs so that they are always up to date).

As for it's accuracy, it is generally accurate but not always so. It (incorrectly) used the 3.5 reach weapon exception for 3 years before the error was noticed.

And wound up being right in the end.

I am not sure I would call that 'right'. The rule was clearly not part of PF and has now been re-instituted (YAY!).

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

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Nefreet wrote:

Okay, this blew up over night.

Lots of comments to respond to, so my apologies if I do not reply to yours in particular (any I'm getting ready for work at the moment, so I probably won't be able to respond to many either way).

1st, if you show up at my table using HeroLab, you're getting audited and book-checked. In my experience thus far, that means I've turned away 100% of characters relying on HeroLab. I am completely within my right as a GM to do this.

2nd, having a HeroLab character sheet, printed out and in front of you, is fine. I believe I even mentioned that in an earlier comment. Using the software at the table, and not so much as having a single piece of paper in front of you, is what I take issue with.

3rd, Rules Atrophy. This is a serious repercussion of using HeroLab. I did not begin my stint in PFS with such utter contempt for it. It was earned over time. I've watched it convert once knowledgeable rules gurus into rules idiots. I can think of two people off the top of my head that were fantastic with the rules pre-HeroLab, and who now have forgotten how their characters even work.

I met with the creator of HeroLab at DundraCon last year and told him this. I told him I was becoming his biggest antagonist on the forums, even. When people at the table I was sitting at chastised me, I relented. And what happened? Within the very next encounter we had a heated rules debate that stemmed from using HeroLab.

Removing HeroLab removes an ever-growing thorn from my side, and the sides of other GMs who've had rules debates that interrupted their games.

4th, loss of rules knowledge isn't my only beef. Someone else up thread mentioned several other good ones. Barriers to play and too many technological distractions at the table aren't specifically directed at HeroLab, but if you get rid of one you help get rid of the others.

5th, HeroLab costs money that is not going to Paizo. I'm not sure if it's a regional occurrence, but I've encountered my fair...

responding to your points in order:

1. Call me crazy but I happen to think that some players tend to benefit from an audit. It is not relevant to me, since I dissable all the books I do not own when I make PFS characters (and almost all those sources are PDFs) I would guess, that the majority of users are in the same situation, or have some problem with the additional resources issue that could happen with other sources (like the PRD).

2. The program allows you to prepare and add buffs and similar abilities on the fly, this could help some players with the math (condition cards and the buff deck are a nice alternative).

3. I guess it really matters where you first come into contact with the new rules, in my case this happens 95% of the time by reading the PDF. I can't remember when Hero lab was actually wrong on something, and I even learned a new thing or two by toying with program ( just search my name and the courageous weapon enhancement issue).

I really don't see the issue, unless you use hero lab as a primary source, and honestly, that's usually not a very pleasant reading experience. It tends to help if you have problem understanding a class, and it was very useful to create some sample characters for the last playtest.

Would you be so kind and entertain us with a specific example regarding this complaint?

4. Technology can be an issue, ideally it should enhance the gaming experience, rather than replace it. That said tablets (for PDF, searching the PDR...) are here to stay and we all have to learn to live with it. Especially considering the mobile nature of PFS.

5. I think that HeroLab tends to get money, that Paizo would never have gotten, after all, I am paying Paizo for new content ( and Seioni crossdressing pictures ^^) and Lone Wolf Development for my convenience.
And frankly even using a source like d20pfsrd could have the same result. The GM has to check additional resources, if the player can't produce them, they can't use it.

6. This error could have been made on paper, by me, especially since some maneuvers can benefit from power attack. Frankly things like this can happen even without software assistance, and while this case was unfortunate, learning to use the software is a skill.

7. There is a big difference between a character sheet generated by the player using hero lab and a a player "just" using the software.

If the character is legal and the player can provide all the necessary paperwork, there should be no reason to reject the character.
The relevant fact here, is that HeroLab is just a tool, like a calculator, or an automated character sheet. It is not content and thus can't be part of the additional resources.

It seems a bit like arguing about the colour of dice, as long as they are legal dice some of the finer distinctions should not matter.

8. You are well within your rights as GM to make the players "show their math to you", however what kind of aid players use to provide that information is not and should not be covered in PFS.

After all the Paizo condition cards and buff deck, are not in the additional resources, yet most GMs would accept them as official, even if they only include a part of the text from the CRB.
This issue isn't different, if you are in serious doubt, you can ask the player to provide the original source (if that source isn't the CRB?)so that you can read it yourself. OF course considering errata and faq, the hero lab version might very well be correct and differ from the dead tree format.

Of course I appreciate, that your position has evolved over time, and is partially based on bad experience... and being "a bit of an old woman", but that complaint can be leveled at literally anybody.

Personally I have plenty of totally unfounded antipathy on the current Star Trek movies (without seeing any of them).

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Mekkis wrote:
CWheezy wrote:
Gauss wrote:

I accept that people use Hero Lab but unfortunately people use it as a crutch. "But Hero Lab says..." is a constant refrain. Hero Lab is not the book and should not replace the book.

I find that system mastery is increased if you actually build the characters yourself. Frankly, I see fewer errors in any character I have ever produced than those any player brings to the table using Hero Lab.

Of course, those players would probably have a greater number of errors if they had NOT used Hero Lab but they have an unreasonable expectation that their characters are 100% accurate.

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't dislike Hero Lab, I dislike how some people use it as a crutch rather than learning the rules.

The rules are bonkers and unclear in a ton of spots.

There are zero people on the planet who know all of pathfinder's rules, so saying "learn the rules" is nonsense

I understand that this is a little late, but it's highlighted my main objection with herolab.

Yes, the rules are 'bonkers' and unclear in a lot of spots. Spots where there might be two or more possible interpretations. Spots where it's up to the GM to make a call.

Using HeroLab, the call HAS been made, and the user does not even know that the point was in contention.

Not happy with that one, since sometimes they ask seemingly ask Paizo directly in those situations, and the communication doesn't result in a FAQ. To be fair, neither the dead tree version nor the pdf tend to mention rules discussion on certain issues.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria

Jiggy wrote:

Wow, okay, definitely haven't read the whole thread. Nevertheless, this personal anecdote seems relevant:

I encountered a new player wanting to get started in PFS. He had apparently heard from someone that I was reasonably good with the rules, and being a newbie himself he wanted to make sure he didn't make any mistakes, so he wanted me to help him build his character.

I thought, "Sure, why not?"

Turns out, though, what he actually wanted was to hand me a blank character sheet, then describe the kind of character he wanted to make, and have me list and describe the various options that existed, and have him choose. Then he wanted me to do the actual writing and the math and so forth.

That was way beyond what I was willing to do, but then he offered to pay me. I cautioned him that I wasn't familiar with all the options out there, but then he said that if I'd just read up on everything that would help him build a [REDACTED] from a certain list of books (I assumed it was the list of books he owned), he'd pay for each book I had to read through.

I thought, "Sure, I could use some spare cash."

So I did my homework, got paid, and started working with him on his character. He was the guy in charge, but I was doing all the math/rules/etc and telling him what was available. Eventually, we finished, and he had a brand-new character, which I reviewed with him to make sure he understood how to play it.

I thought we were done.

He was at the next PFS game day I attended, sitting at a different table. Halfway through the session, my table was taking a break, and I happened to overhear this from the newbie's table:

GM: I'm pretty sure that's not actually legal.
Player (pointing straight at me): But he said it worked, so shouldn't it be fine?

The GM looked over at me, and I was just kind of staring, dumbfounded. After a few moments, the GM then turned back to the newbie and said, "Well, no problem, we'll just look it up. What book is [REDACTED] in?"

He said he...

Well that is a sad story, I am sure your heart was in the right place, but maybe taking the money was the wrong call here. Obviously the player had the job to inform himself about the campaign rules, so he certainly is at fault too.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I can't remember when Hero lab was actually wrong on something

I have an extensive amount of experience programming HeroLab. It is wrong in a lot of ways and I have a local .user file that fixes a lot. The vast majority of the fixes are to fix nerfs where HeroLab takes a more conservative approach than the actual rules.

Herolab has very few rules violations

I think most of the complaint is from people turning on Haste and forgetting to turn it off. So it isn't as much as Herolab is wrong, as it is the user isn't using the tool correctly.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I did find out in the middle of one game that the Blackened curse lists the bonus spell wall of fire at 3rd level when it was supposed to be 4th. That was a little annoying.


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Nefreet wrote:


7th, many of the posters in this thread have claimed they'd go to the VO and complain about my ruling, or take it up with Campaign Leadership, and that using HeroLab is completely legal in PFS.

I will tell you now, your efforts would be in vain.

HeroLab is NOT supported by PFS. It is not referenced in the Guide to Organized Play or the Additional Resources. Nowhere (to my knowledge) has Campaign Leadership ever endorsed its use. HeroLab is no more legal for use in PFS than any other 3rd party material. Until that fact changes, I am completely in my right as a PFS GM to refuse HeroLab at my tables.

8th, I'm a pen-and-paper gamer. I create every character on a CRS that I custom myself. THIS is the most common character sheet I use, which is modified off of the CRB sheet with larger boxes, less weapon spaces, and no equipment section (since the ITS fulfills that need, now). The ITS is modified with more lines and has spaces for consumables.

But, as I've already stated, I have no problem with someone printing out a HeroLab character sheet and filling it out themselves. I recognize that not everyone has the skill or desire to come up with their own sheets. I'm fine with characters written out on graph paper, even. It's the use of HeroLab at the table that I disdain, and so long as it's within my power to stop, I will do so.

Lastly, I'm aware my position is extreme. I'm aware many people have succumbed to using HeroLab and thusly feel the need to defend it. I'm okay being the villain here. 98% of the time I'm laid back and easy going, open to creative solutions at the table, love roleplaying more than rollplaying, and go out of my way to make my games a fun experience.

HeroLab represents 1% of the time that I absolutely put my foot down.

*runs out the door as he's very close to being late to work*

Herolab is not a source at all, so that is not even a valid reply. That is like saying dice towers cant be used because they are not a rules source.

So, no you can not ban herolab and you have cited nothing to equate it to being source material like most 3pp products are.

By your logic pen and paper are not allowed because they are not made by a company other than Pathfinder.

You have no right to control how a player gets to their calculations. Do you ban calculators also?

That is the problem with PFS, people like you who don't realize they don't get to make up random rules.


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Uwotm8 wrote:
Obo wrote:
If you are gming you are not paizos copyright police. Your job is to officiate a game.
GMs in PFS are specifically tasked with these duties. Yes, they are Paizo's copyright police, as you put it.

You know, I really don't think they are. The requirement for a player to have the appropriate resources at the table is pretty much written in terms of making sure the rules are there so the GM has a source to review for running the game, not strictly to enforce copyright or ferret out rule-breakers. The PFS guidelines are pretty softball on the issue to the point that I think taking a hard nosed approach is setting a dissonant tone and is probably bad for PFS in the long run.

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