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So out of curiosity, I looked to see if Pathfinder's Hypnotism spell had the same wording as 3.x's. It does. Although its a little less reliable due to Pathfinder not having a Fanatic attitude level. Its still good enough.
While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.
And with this and enough patience, any lvl 1 sorcerer can take over the world.
Step 1: Find anyone that you can convince to let you cast a spell on them. Pay them if you have to. Only thing that matters is that they voluntarily allow you to cast a spell on them, aka they willingly forgo their saving throw.
Step 2: Cast Hypnotism. Use the suggestion "Trust me". The target has now gone from Indifferent to Helpful in regards to trusting you, and that change is permanent. Under 3.x, you could get them up to Fanatic so that they would do as you asked without question, even to their own deaths, but Pathfinder's Helpful is enough to get them to fight for you, so it should still suffice for this.
Step 3: Use their new found trust to get them to wave any future saving throws against your spells, and proceed to cast Hypnotism as needed until you change their attitude about you completely. They won't remember what happened after the spell ends, so they will think their new attitude is their own idea, and hence won't question it.
Step 4: Repeat over time to build a small army of people that are Helpful to you. You are now a cult leader. Use your helpful followers to Aid Another on your checks to recruit more people into voluntarily failing their saving throws.
Step 5: Recruit other wizards/sorcerers/characters with UMD and get them to learn Hypnotism/give them wands/scrolls of Hypnotism. Get them to Helpful across the board, and have them go out and do the same thing to other people in a pyramid scheme.
Step 6: Take over ever increasing territories. Start with small villages until you've won the entire village over. With their help, move to taking over larger villages, then cities, nations, and the world.
Sure, you can only hypnotize 2d4 hitdice at a time, but even at level 1 that means you can potentially recruit up to lvl 8 characters. The vast majority of humanoids in any setting are going to be lower level than that, and by the time your followers are numbered in the tens of thousands, you will have sufficient political power to control the higher level characters through more mundane means.
Just be sure to keep things on the down low at the start, which is when you are most vulnerable. Once you have your base cult set up, you can start abducting people and forcing them to submit to your magic brainwashing, which when you're done you can easily convince them that what you did was for their own good and let them go, to bring you even more.
As long as you don't tip your hand too early, the authorities shouldn't catch wind of what you're doing until its too late and you've already taken over enough of their own ranks for them to join you as well.
Think of it like a cross between being a charismatic campaign speaker, and being able to make your own manchurian candidates in bulk. Once you've got other spellcasters under your thrall, it pretty much becomes exponential growth and cannot be stopped.
Good in theory but I would kill your character if you were at my table. And I could argue that a silver tongued human with maxed out mouth skills would be more reliable. Still I like your thinking and enjoyed the read :)
No reason you can't have both. Sorcerer is going to have sky high Charisma anyway, and Bluff is a class skill. Or you can use a talent to pick up Diplomacy as a class skill as well.
Walk into a small town and start casting a few flashy spells to make sure everybody knows you're magical, then Bluff your way to saying you can cast spells to make men more virile, the women more beautiful, everyone smarter and/or more charismatic. Play up to their vices, Bluff them into thinking you're going to cast a spell that will make women throw themselves at the men at the drop of a hat.
Wonderful part of Hypnotism is they don't remember what you did to them when it ends, so its then easy to just say "Oh well a spell like that is too complicated for just one casting. Its going to need a few more to get it up to snuff, trust me."
Then bam, you've got your first recruits. Get them brainwashed, then they're all giving Aid Another to your future checks to convince more people.
Short of the DM going "Hand of God reaches out of heaven and squishes you like a bug", there is no legit counter to this that I can see.
Especially since every single person you use it on will swear up and down that its entirely their idea to help you, that its done under their own free will (which is technically true), and even them going into an anti-magic zone won't change anything.
They are not under any kind of magical compulsion at that point.
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3.5 Complete mage, Controllers. Gives a break down of how to build this character forward beyond level one. Maximize Hypnotism Level 3 would always affect characters of level 8 or less.
Sorcerer Bloodline: Infernal
H: Iron Will
1: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
3: Spell Penetration
5: Silent Spell
7: Still Spell
9: Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
11: Greater Spell Penetration
13: Heighten Spell
15: Quicken Spell
17: Reach Spell (tired of touching people with Touch of idiocy? Make it a ray)
this leaves out Bloodline gained feats and such in the build.
Traits
Focused Disciple: When weaker wills falter, you keep
a clear mind. You gain a +2 trait bonus on saving throws
against charm and compulsion effects. (Ultimate Campaign - Religion trait)
Friend in Every Town: You have no problem making
friends and learning information from them wherever
you go. You gain a +1 trait bonus on all Knowledge (local)
checks and Diplomacy checks. One of these skills (your
choice) is always a class skill for you. (Ultimate Campaign - Social trait)
With this even at level 1 you have very hard to resist Enchantments, but even harder to resist Charm Effects, if Compulsion is more for what you want, then the Fey Bloodline works, or if your GM allows it, Dual-Blooded Sorcerer Fey and infernal.
Currently playing in the Mummy's Mask with this build in mind with a Kobold (so lacks Iron will)
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Also Hypnotism doesn't just affect single creatures it affects many of them, so a village of level 1 commoners you could technically place upto 8 at a time under the hypnosis under the pretense of a show.
In 3.5 ravenloft there was even the Hypnosis Skill(cha) which was added to bards, Sorcerers, and wizard classes.
Could easily see a bard moving from town to town using hypnotism to create 'friends' and the evil ones, more than friends. Being that trusted friend to go to with problems when their around. But like it was said earlier, quickly become the target of the 'good guys' if your not careful mister cult leader.
In full rating assassin's would have a hard time of it. By the time you're big enough for that, you're going to be able toe ensure the only people that get that close to you are your trusted, personally brainwashed elite. To get that close, you'd have to be brainwashed too.
Won't draw attention like someone campaigning to the masses either, because you aren't doing the actual casting in public.
Plus, by the time you might get a reputation for being untrustworthy, you'll have plenty of help for Aid Another to change their minds.
Morals? You can change those with Hypnotism as well. The trick is not to ask too much too soon. Like the story of the frog sitting in a pot until it boils to death if you raise the heat slowly enough, you start small and work your way up
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Also, the phrase "cult" is purely for the sake of the reader. There is no odd rituals or behaviors to tip anyone off that something is wrong. You just get an ever expanding group of people that will do whatever you say without questioning your motives.
Like a Fox News viewer. ;P
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A Cleric/Paladin of Desna (or any of the other deities that value freedom) sees your casting, or hears about it in some way and interviews your cult as to why they follow you so closely (sense motive to see they have no good motive). When they see you cast they successfully make the spell-craft check to find out your are hypnotizing people. They then arrest you, or (in the likely scenario you are using your pawns as meat-shields) they hire a justicar to beat you six ways to sunday and then arrest you. Or you happen to be screwing up the plans of a less than ethical elected official and he sees you as a threat to his position, he hires an assassin and you're dead (uses bluff to infiltrate your cult and then stabs you in the neck, dealing more than the very small amount of health you have).
Or the people in your cult could just have a conscience and realize that what you are doing is against their personal morals (NPCs have morals too), after all: you aren't magically controlling them. If your best buddy started getting you to help him hypnotize people (it is kinda obvious), could you think anything fishy about it? At best you would probably need to start paying off some of your subordinates, there is a reason that very few cults get large: at some point there are too many people to personally interact with and you'll need to start relying on the charisma of your lieutenants, and the larger you get the more likely someone with authority is going to try to shut you down. If you're lucky that means a frontal assault and you have the chance to run away, if you're not that means they pay a mid-level adventuring party to scry&fry you. Also Hypnotism only works if "The request [is] brief and reasonable", if someone can convince your puppet that you are untrustworthy then suddenly your house of cards topples.
Also I would go bard rather sorc. Then you can get the Spellsong feat which is another level of safety/subterfuge. Plus it is much more...
^_^ For a cult leader I would do the same. Bard far more useful in staying alive for said actions since they can hide said actions a bit earlier than a sorcerer.
Yet my Kobold has made it too level 6 so far, mostly because no one seems to expect Kobolds to do anything in this area except be a minor annoyance i guess.
then again also took the Kobold Trait Jester instead of Crafty. So took Perform[Comedy] :-) So far he even saved the group from a Crystal Dragon by telling her Jokes.
Hey guize wat's goin' on in this thread?
Hypnotism breakd the limit that diplomacy has (can only adjust a person's attitude two steps, 3 with the right trait) but is otherwise no different than just maxing out diplomacy. Stack on Charm person to get people to accept Hypnotism in the first place and max out your diplomacy (a trait, skill ranks, and a 20 charisma = a +10 without even trying hard) to fill in the gaps and you're good.
Then the other shoe drops, and the same word you used to describe your situation proves your downfall. The 500$ jeopardy answer is "Cult Leader", for the question I will say "what is an incredibly common BBEG for low-level adventurers who are just getting started before they chase a REAL campaign plot?"
You'll be up to your eyeballs in battle-clerics, barbarians and wizards before you can say "abracadabra" and your cult, being made up of a small village, will fold like wet tissue paper.
Other options include:
Guardsmen says "sure, cast it," lies (your sense motive is crap), makes his save and the fun begins. Bonus points if he took spellcraft and recognizes the spell.
An obedient slave is "talked down" by family members, he still likes you but he's against you because he just thinks you have gotten out of control and need to be stopped for your own good. Pretty easy diplomacy check if you aren't making major deliveries on all your cult-leader promises.
You have converted the town, they believe in you, you are mayor, but in order to get an keep it you had to help everyone, work really hard to make the town a better place under your leadership, and otherwise just be a good leader in the first place. Congratulations, your benevolent dictatorship has risen by virtue of you actually being benevolent, and in fact far too busy to abuse your power.
I completely agree. You're counting on your victims to be mindless and not deceive you in any way. Also, as soon as your followers start growing in numbers and others from distant places learn what you're doing and find out how weak you are (even if you aren't weak) dont you suppose there is going to be some kind of force or forces that come to try and stop you?
Theoretically it could work, if your DM was as bright as a 1901 penny, but most likely he's going to foil your plot and make the rest of your group happy again.
Lets turn the tables, shall we? Let's say you're a level 1 fighter in a new campaign and your DM tells you guys that there are rumors about a village a few towns over where a sorcerer has the full support of the town, whatever it is, and that he is trying to spread his power across the neighboring town. Don't you think your party of all level 1 characters would have fun squashing a power-hungry caster? Even better, a high level wizard or sorcerer would probably scoff at the level 1 hypnotizing sorcerer and (since they are far wiser than he) would stop him or perhaps hypnotize him and make him do their bidding just for giggles.
Mind-games are never easy, and there is no way a level 1 would rule the world, even by chance, but have fun trying.
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Even better, a high level wizard or sorcerer would probably scoff at the level 1 hypnotizing sorcerer and (since they are far wiser than he) would stop him or perhaps hypnotize him and make him do their bidding just for giggles.
Very good reason to start small (IE, just make friends with Merchants in towns with just "you like me" to get small discounts on gear and Equipment)
Have Iron will, and perhaps the trait to resist Charm and Compulsion magics. Even so, never try and over reach as a level 1.
Then again, wouldn't one be earning experience by starting on this mad quest, so even if he does do hypnotism, he might earn XP from that brightly sparkling GM of Pennies ;-) for doing so.
(Especially if he manages to place under hypnotism some semi-important people)
But best rule is to start small as he is suggesting, but I'd also stop at the 'my corner of said world' ie, this small town that I want to make 'better'
My Kobold is basically doing that without notice because he doesn't go beyond 'you like me' or 'i'm a good kobold'
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You're stretching a lot. A request of "trust me" is not necessarily a reasonable request of an individual depending on your previous relationship. It's not wholesale impossible, but it's not as easy as you might think it is.
For the record, this is more thought experiment than it is serious character build attempt.
You don't even need a spell to do this. There's plenty of real world examples of people getting pretty much the same results through just charisma and intelligence alone.
While I don't see it as workable for world domination (among other things, I don't think the changes to attitude would 'stack' as the source is the same), it's still a fairly powerful 1st level spell for someone willing to make use of it.
First, use Diplomacy to get someone's attitude as good as you can make it, then use this spell to modify attitude for whatever is appropriate for the person involved
-For a local merchant, "How about a discount?" is probably not beyond the pale, and if they are already helpful, or indebted to you, you can likely push whatever discount you would otherwise have gotten significantly higher.
-Similarly, getting an understanding of the local criminal goings on from a low level (or even mid-level) criminal who is now super-helpful, or an idea of what the city guard is up to from a super-helpful guard...these are not minor advantages.
The key I think is not to overreach, but to develop a significant network of 'enhanced friends'.
Obviously, this has already worked at least once on Golarion (Razmiran, ignoring that he is reported to be a Wizard instead of a Sorcerer), and it has worked multiple times on Earth, with the successful cults (that are still going strong today) being inclined to take extremely hostile action against anyone who says anything against them. Nevertheless, the study of such examples (from a safe distance) can be useful. You don't just hypnotize people quietly and randomly -- you find people whose life circumstances make them vulnerable to reprogramming, and you get celebrities on your side -- the combination is preferable.
You DON'T need or want to be genuinely helpful to all your minions, because that would be highly unprofitable -- you need to run your cult on a tight business model, and with that in mind, you need to actively and openly market your teachings as a former of "self-help" that people will pay to see the next level of (see below). However, you do need to be genuinely nice to your celebrities, because they will make you secure against the law, and they will also be able to afford to be nice to you financially. Still, it pays to maintain a healthy level of paranoia. Beware of Stinky Personalities that might cause people to smell a rat (or worse); be sure to have your own team of celebrities, lawyers, and thugs to assault any opposition, because -- as is well known -- to defend well, you need to be offensive.
A certain amount of marketing finesse will be needed to succeed in establishing your cult. You should openly play up concepts that are viscerally appealing, such as maintaining the purity of our bodily fluids, but make sure you have a reasonably short and catchy name for this -- Diarrheics will fit the bill here, and you want it to pour forth from every household conversation and store bookshelf. It also helps to have a fantastic origin story that average people can't check; as long as you can get them and your celebrities to believe it even in the face of evidence to the contrary, you don't have to worry too much about experts being able to check on it. As has been said on Earth, you can coll all of the people some of the time, and you can fool some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time, so when you find people that you can fool all of the time, concentrate on them -- especially if they are rich, powerful, or famous, or preferably some combination of the above.
DO NOT let everything pour forth freely or cheaply -- while you should expect to make a healthy profit on book sales, you want to hold back further levels of cultic knowledge -- indeed, rigorously and jealously guard them, even using the full force of the law -- to release them only in exchange for increasing commitment of both the financial and psychological sorts. To this end, you need to divide the cultic knowledge into a suitable number of levels of increasing Illumination. You do not want it to be too easy, or more importantly, too cheap, for your sheep to attain the level of Iota Delta 10 Tau. Also, you don't want any of your sheep to get too close to you in level of Illumination, because they might turn into wolves. This is not always possible to fend off, so always make sure that in the course of advancing your minions, you always get enough dirt on them to be able to declare them to be Stinky Personalities on a moment's notice. Make sure that it is clear to everyone that the only cure for Stinky Personality is a complete personality disassembly and cleaning, including replacement of any faulty components.
As one who can learn from both Earth and Golarion, you will have a unique opportunity for success. You can learn from the successes of the pros on Earth, but on Golarion you will also have access to unique technology -- that Earth cult leaders could only dream of -- for extending your life, thereby avoiding the inevitable fate of even the most successful cult leaders on Earth.
So out of curiosity, I looked to see if Pathfinder's Hypnotism spell had the same wording as 3.x's. It does. Although its a little less reliable due to Pathfinder not having a Fanatic attitude level. Its still good enough.
While the subject is fascinated by this spell, it reacts as though it were two steps more friendly in attitude. This allows you to make a single request of the affected creature (provided you can communicate with it). The request must be brief and reasonable. Even after the spell ends, the creature retains its new attitude toward you, but only with respect to that particular request.And with this and enough patience, any lvl 1 sorcerer can take over the world.
Step 1: Find anyone that you can convince to let you cast a spell on them. Pay them if you have to. Only thing that matters is that they voluntarily allow you to cast a spell on them, aka they willingly forgo their saving throw.
Actually if you trick someone they still can get a save because the effect is hostile. Source:A rule team dev.
Step 2: Cast Hypnotism. Use the suggestion "Trust me". The target has now gone from Indifferent to Helpful in regards to trusting you, and that change is permanent. Under 3.x, you could get them up to Fanatic so that they would do as you asked without question, even to their own deaths, but Pathfinder's Helpful is enough to get them to fight for you, so it should still suffice for this.
Actually that does not make them your puppet. They are unlikely to do anything they would not do for a friend, so the limitation is how much would I do for a friend. Not everyone is willing to risk injury or death for a friend. You might need some bluff checks to make this convincing.
Step 3: Use their new found trust to get them to wave any future saving throws against your spells, and proceed to cast Hypnotism as needed until you change their attitude about you completely. They won't remember what happened after the spell ends, so they will think their new attitude is their own idea, and hence won't question it.
See 1 and 2, along with outside interference. Also the creature does not remember being enspelled. It does not say they forget the events that took place. They will just think they agreed to do ___.
Step 4: Repeat over time to build a small army of people that are Helpful to you. You are now a cult leader. Use your helpful followers to Aid Another on your checks to recruit more people into voluntarily failing their saving throws.
Nice try.. :)
etc etc
That Scientologist Archetype is too OP, man.
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^Shhhhhh -- do ye want to get sued? Now repeat after me: It's called Razmiran Priest in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, or False Priest otherwise. An Auditor Iota Deltan Inquisitor will be paying you a visit shortly . . . .
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I'm aways amazed that when someone comes up with a really clever way to do something in game, people always come in and state that they'd just hand wave auto failure because they don't like it because reasons.
It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.
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It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.
Street Magic!
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I'm aways amazed that when someone comes up with a really clever way to do something in game, people always come in and state that they'd just hand wave auto failure because they don't like it because reasons.
yup. Although most GM's I've run into it, don't seem to mind the enchanters if done a good way. Right now I'm kinda surprised my character in the Mummy's mask game I'm in hasn't gotten murdered by the group (Although he has been threatened a few times that if they ever caught him doing so to them)
It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.
Not really, One just starts with those that need help fighting addictions or other issues such anger issues, since magic is far more real in this world, couldn't a sorcerer who passed a detect evil spell work at making criminals better members of society? Certainly would in a LE Society, and a good align caster growing up in such a setting would want to do his duty in making criminals better people in society, following laws and such.
In more Good aligned settings/societies these people might come to a such a sorcerer/wizard if they're having issues with a violent individual, but most likely would not have access to criminals for fear of power corrupting.
Granted if one goes this route there will always be those fearful NPC's that distrust your character and that by itself could make a good back story with the exiled trait when the town had finally had enough of the possible and not just the did they, and chased the offender out of town.
It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.
To paraphrase my above post, a lot of people won't let you hypnotize them. Concentrate on those that do.
{. . .}
Granted if one goes this route there will always be those fearful NPC's that distrust your character and that by itself could make a good back story with the exiled trait when the town had finally had enough of the possible and not just the did they, and chased the offender out of town.
This is one of those things for which healthy paranoia comes in handy. Better to jump town on your own initiative. Liberally use the excuse that agents of S.M.O.O.C.H. (in reality a short-lived Irriseni counterintelligence agency) are after you.
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This is one of those things for which healthy paranoia comes in handy. Better to jump town on your own initiative. Liberally use the excuse that agents of S.M.O.O.C.H. (in reality a short-lived Irriseni counterintelligence agency) are after you.
XD indeed, then one has a character with a unique-ish backstory. :D The Sorcerer/bard that escaped the Frozen North (which only gets funnier if they end up the Reign of Winter Campaign)
Character: O.O; just when I thought I'd escaped....THEY PULLED ME BACK IN!!
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It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.To paraphrase my above post, a lot of people won't let you hypnotize them. Concentrate on those that do.
But seriously...who would? I mean, it's not like hypnosis is a harmless parlor trick in Golarion. Magic is real, and so is the concept of magical mind control. If you have the requisite Bluff/Diplomacy to convince someone to let you hypnotize them without any safety net (someone they trust watching, etc.), then you probably don't need to Hypnotize them in the first place.
It's an interesting thought experiment, but like most powergaming, it's only effective in a world where the player is the only person on earth with a working brain.
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It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.To paraphrase my above post, a lot of people won't let you hypnotize them. Concentrate on those that do.
But seriously...who would? I mean, it's not like hypnosis is a harmless parlor trick in Golarion. Magic is real, and so is the concept of magical mind control. If you have the requisite Bluff/Diplomacy to convince someone to let you hypnotize them without any safety net (someone they trust watching, etc.), then you probably don't need to Hypnotize them in the first place.
It's an interesting thought experiment, but like most powergaming, it's only effective in a world where the player is the only person on earth with a working brain.
well the Hypnotism does affect more than one person, but also not everyone on earth has spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana. So the average peasant could be talked into it. Still not an easy way to do anything, if anything. Being used as Entertainment would likely get better results at level 1
well the Hypnotism does affect more than one person, but also not everyone on earth has spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana. So the average peasant could be talked into it. Still not an easy way to do anything, if anything. Being used as Entertainment would likely get better results at level 1It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.To paraphrase my above post, a lot of people won't let you hypnotize them. Concentrate on those that do.
But seriously...who would? I mean, it's not like hypnosis is a harmless parlor trick in Golarion. Magic is real, and so is the concept of magical mind control. If you have the requisite Bluff/Diplomacy to convince someone to let you hypnotize them without any safety net (someone they trust watching, etc.), then you probably don't need to Hypnotize them in the first place.
It's an interesting thought experiment, but like most powergaming, it's only effective in a world where the player is the only person on earth with a working brain.
Let's assume that the target doesn't have Spellcraft, and is thus unable to identify the spell. They would still resist having their mind controlled. Now, granted, if you choose to do this to commoners, their will save isn't likely to matter anyway. But the idea that you're going to pay someone money to let you mind-control them is absurd.
Likewise, in a world where hypnosis is a real thing, it seems unlikely that people would show up to be hypnotized for their own amusement. It's amusement for us because we don't believe that it really works in the way that it does in Pathfinder.
While it works in theory, such things rarely work in practice. Why? Outside influences. It's chaos math, basically. In the years it would take some sorcerer to work out his "technique" he would doubtless make quite a few enemies who didn't take well to his undermining of their local influence: gangsters, crooks, politicians, wizards, etc. In a world of magic, there are plenty of ways to detect its influence.
Google "Jesus sorcerer" for a bit of history on this.
From a GMs perspective, I'd let you get away with this for a while, but then I'd use it as an excuse to make you some fun enemies.
Oh, I agree that if someone in one of my games tried this, I'd find creative ways to shut it down as well, assuming just talking to the player out of game and going "Dude, this is seriously boring. Everybody else wants to go kill some orcs, but you're keeping them in town twiddling their thumbs. Knock it off!" didn't work.
Although it would make for an interesting single person campaign, actually.
Best way to counter it though? Have an NPC do it, and then let your players come up with a way to counter it as an adventure.
Right up there with the old "if its good for the goose, its good for the gander" method of figuring out how to overcome a problem build by simply throwing a clone of it at the party.
Fun thought experiment, but "trust me" doesn't seem what the developers had in mind as a reasonable request when they wrote the spell.
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well the Hypnotism does affect more than one person, but also not everyone on earth has spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana. So the average peasant could be talked into it. Still not an easy way to do anything, if anything. Being used as Entertainment would likely get better results at level 1It seems like the main problem would be convincing someone to allow you to hypnotize them in the first place.To paraphrase my above post, a lot of people won't let you hypnotize them. Concentrate on those that do.
But seriously...who would? I mean, it's not like hypnosis is a harmless parlor trick in Golarion. Magic is real, and so is the concept of magical mind control. If you have the requisite Bluff/Diplomacy to convince someone to let you hypnotize them without any safety net (someone they trust watching, etc.), then you probably don't need to Hypnotize them in the first place.
It's an interesting thought experiment, but like most powergaming, it's only effective in a world where the player is the only person on earth with a working brain.
Let's assume that the target doesn't have Spellcraft, and is thus unable to identify the spell. They would still resist having their mind controlled. Now, granted, if you choose to do this to commoners, their will save isn't likely to matter anyway. But the idea that you're going to pay someone money to let you mind-control them is absurd.
Likewise, in a world where hypnosis is a real thing, it seems unlikely that people would show up to be hypnotized for their own amusement. It's amusement for us because we don't believe that it really works in the way that it does in Pathfinder.
You may be surprised how much a lack of education combined with misinformation will lead people to do things harmful to themselves while believing it is good for them. And sometimes, good education doesn't even help, as their own desires will convince them that the falsehoods are true.
See: snake oil medicine; nearly all of alternative medicine today, the vast amount of conspiracy theories, hatred of "western ideals" in some parts of the world, the belief that if something is "ancient" (even if it is really only a few decades old) it means it is right, and much more. People will beieve what they want to believe regardless of the evidence or pack of evidence - and for some people, even a lack of evidence is proof that their belief is correct.
I have no doubt that the OP's plan would work on a good portion of the population, provided a high enough bluff and diplomacy skill. Others may fight back, but as I've been doing for wel over a decade - showing people reality and all its wonders (such as the sciences, since I am a science teacher) more often causes people to distrust you more than the liar who sells them what they think they want.
And besides all of that, pure discounting how many people wish to be controlled in some way, such as the entire bondage industry (remember how well 50 Shades of Grey sold?).
The reason this plan will work is because people who try to convince you of the truth have to prove themselves, while people who spread lies and misinformation simple have to make something up (wil high you'd then need even more evidence to prove wrong again). It's a losing battle.
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See: snake oil medicine; nearly all of alternative medicine today, the vast amount of conspiracy theories, hatred of "western ideals" in some parts of the world, the belief that if something is "ancient" (even if it is really only a few decades old) it means it is right, and much more. People will beieve what they want to believe regardless of the evidence or pack of evidence - and for some people, even a lack of evidence is proof that their belief is correct.
Just a completely off topic historical trivia bit here, but snake oil was *NOT* originally a con.
The chinese workers that came over to build the railroad did indeed use snake oil for joint pain. It was made from the chinese water snake, which contains a high amount of eicosapentaenoic acid, a proven anti-inflammatory. However, north american snakes do not contain this particular form of fatty acid, so any snake oil produced here in the states was completely lacking in medicinal qualities, and hence we get the modern usage of the term "snake oil" as being a sham product.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
See: snake oil medicine; nearly all of alternative medicine today, the vast amount of conspiracy theories, hatred of "western ideals" in some parts of the world, the belief that if something is "ancient" (even if it is really only a few decades old) it means it is right, and much more. People will beieve what they want to believe regardless of the evidence or pack of evidence - and for some people, even a lack of evidence is proof that their belief is correct.Just a completely off topic historical trivia bit here, but snake oil was *NOT* originally a con.
The chinese workers that came over to build the railroad did indeed use snake oil for joint pain. It was made from the chinese water snake, which contains a high amount of eicosapentaenoic acid, a proven anti-inflammatory. However, north american snakes do not contain this particular form of fatty acid, so any snake oil produced here in the states was completely lacking in medicinal qualities, and hence we get the modern usage of the term "snake oil" as being a sham product.
Nifty! Thank you! I love medical trivia like this. To add on to it, when the snake oil salesman became a more or less popular thing, the "medicine" wasn't even made from snake oil. And it was one of the reasons the FDA came about.
Interesting thread. It makes me want to play a character whom attempts something like this.
The attitude improvement from diplomacy only lasts 1d4 hours, unless the GM rules otherwise, so Hypnotism is certainly an improvement.
It would work as a permanent 'love potion' as well. If your character is interested in things other than ruling the world.
I'm aways amazed that when someone comes up with a really clever way to do something in game, people always come in and state that they'd just hand wave auto failure because they don't like it because reasons.
100x this.
What I'd rather do as a GM is let the character build up his little cult. After a while, some word will get out and a band of NPC do-gooder adventurers will come along to investigate the plot and you'd basically have a rather typical adventure unfold in opposite, with the NPCs being the traveling band of murder-hobos and the PC being the evil BBEG. It could turn into a fun, interesting adventure.
Even better, a high level wizard or sorcerer would probably scoff at the level 1 hypnotizing sorcerer and (since they are far wiser than he) would stop him or perhaps hypnotize him and make him do their bidding just for giggles.Very good reason to start small (IE, just make friends with Merchants in towns with just "you like me" to get small discounts on gear and Equipment)
Have Iron will, and perhaps the trait to resist Charm and Compulsion magics. Even so, never try and over reach as a level 1.
Then again, wouldn't one be earning experience by starting on this mad quest, so even if he does do hypnotism, he might earn XP from that brightly sparkling GM of Pennies ;-) for doing so.
(Especially if he manages to place under hypnotism some semi-important people)
But best rule is to start small as he is suggesting, but I'd also stop at the 'my corner of said world' ie, this small town that I want to make 'better'
My Kobold is basically doing that without notice because he doesn't go beyond 'you like me' or 'i'm a good kobold'
If you can get away with it, your DM is lacking skills required to make your game fun
If you can get away with it, your DM is lacking skills required to make your game funEven better, a high level wizard or sorcerer would probably scoff at the level 1 hypnotizing sorcerer and (since they are far wiser than he) would stop him or perhaps hypnotize him and make him do their bidding just for giggles.Very good reason to start small (IE, just make friends with Merchants in towns with just "you like me" to get small discounts on gear and Equipment)
Have Iron will, and perhaps the trait to resist Charm and Compulsion magics. Even so, never try and over reach as a level 1.
Then again, wouldn't one be earning experience by starting on this mad quest, so even if he does do hypnotism, he might earn XP from that brightly sparkling GM of Pennies ;-) for doing so.
(Especially if he manages to place under hypnotism some semi-important people)
But best rule is to start small as he is suggesting, but I'd also stop at the 'my corner of said world' ie, this small town that I want to make 'better'
My Kobold is basically doing that without notice because he doesn't go beyond 'you like me' or 'i'm a good kobold'
But... he is having fun.
I think you are one who is lacking something here.
I don't think this passes a RAW test.
I'm not convinced that "Trust me" would qualify as a request in the sense that the Diplomacy rules use the word.
"Make a request" concerns trying to get an NPC to do you a favor, like let you through a door. It's not what you use when you want a general attitude change such as "trust me."
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If you can get away with it, your DM is lacking skills required to make your game funEven better, a high level wizard or sorcerer would probably scoff at the level 1 hypnotizing sorcerer and (since they are far wiser than he) would stop him or perhaps hypnotize him and make him do their bidding just for giggles.Very good reason to start small (IE, just make friends with Merchants in towns with just "you like me" to get small discounts on gear and Equipment)
Have Iron will, and perhaps the trait to resist Charm and Compulsion magics. Even so, never try and over reach as a level 1.
Then again, wouldn't one be earning experience by starting on this mad quest, so even if he does do hypnotism, he might earn XP from that brightly sparkling GM of Pennies ;-) for doing so.
(Especially if he manages to place under hypnotism some semi-important people)
But best rule is to start small as he is suggesting, but I'd also stop at the 'my corner of said world' ie, this small town that I want to make 'better'
My Kobold is basically doing that without notice because he doesn't go beyond 'you like me' or 'i'm a good kobold'
He is still new to running RPG's and I have been at gaming in different systems for 24 years on and off. But the game is fun for me and the others. I side track only when I believe it will add an element of humor (or save the group from Horrible horrible things like 'The Catfolk Ranger telling a Crystal Dragon that it [the dragon] is less important than the groups quest to remove a possible necromancer' [this was the start of what the character started with before rolling] not the best start to a 'Diplomatic talk' which the GM encourages one not just mindless rolling, he has you start the topic and even how one starts it to decide on Difficulty/Penalties. Something I thought I only did these days in gaming)
But... he is having fun.I think you are one who is lacking something here.
I am Indeed :D Even got my little Kobold a few away from level 7 now.
Dual-Blooded Fey/Infernal Sorcerer, I made him the way he is as I told the GM I had owned the first 3 parts of the adventure path and had read the first two to the Mummy Mask, and knew this makes the kobold an easy target and would make it harder for me to break the game with knowledge since I wouldn't be able to do much harm with the build, still have fun, and if need be, pull some comical Never Winter Night Shenanigans. (which he got the refrence)For viewing pleasure I present.... (*kazoo trumpets*)
FLEA
Kobold, NE, Dual-Blooded Sorcerer (Fey/Infernal) 6
Initiative: +5, Senses: darkvision 60', Perception +3
AC: 17 Touch: 14 Flat: 14 (+1 Natural, +3 Dex,+1 Size, +1 armor, +1 Deflect)
HP: 32 (6d6+6)
Fortitude: +3 [+4] Reflex: +5 [+6] Will: +6 [+7]
SQ: Laughing Touch (DC:17) 7/DY, Infernal Resistance (+2 against Poison & Fire Resistance 5)
Racial
Armored, Jester, Darkvision, Light Sensitivity
Melee: Dagger +3 (1d3-1/19-20 s/p)
Str 8 Dex 17 Con 13 Int 12 Wis 17 Cha 18
BA: +3 CMB +1 CMD 14
Feats
Cantrips, Eschew Materials, Spell Focus [Enchantment],Spell Penetration,
Silent Spell
Skills
Diplomacy +16, KS: Arcana +6, KS: Local +7, Perform [Comedy] +16, Spellcraft +9
Traits
Focused Disciple (+2 Save against Charm/Compulsions)
Friend In Every Town (+1 to KS: Local & Class skill)
Exile (+2 On Initiative)
(Flaw/Weakness): Hedonistic (Likely why he was kicked out of the tribe of kobolds /ie run out of dodge)
He doesn't currently have much equipment as the group found him when he was level 5 robbed of everything and about to be murdered. So they gave him a set of Ceremonial robes armor, refitted to look like a small sized jester outfit and a Dagger. He has gotten a great more gear now that he is level 6 But it was fun to build him up a bit and PC interactions when they thought he only spoke Dragonic and spoke down around him in common until they got back to town and saw him put on a performance for those at the Inn.
Current Group Dynamic
Female Catfolk Ranger
Female Dwarf Witch
Male Grillips Ninja
Female Elf Bard - recent addition, Perform [Dance]
Male Kobold Sorcerer (me)
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Diplomancer Bard, spellsong & voila every performance is a recruitment. There may also be masterpieces (dance of the kindled desires?) that add even more angles for manipulation.
That said somebody WILL rumble your little game eventually and so I'd rather use it to create a discrete pool of malleable people than to outwardly gain power. Long-term game, be VERY popular in one small area (your home) and the DM will be less inclined to hunt you.
truer words
For those who think that no one with a working brain would let you control them, much less pay you to do so, Earth has plenty of of examples of people who do exactly that -- an awful lot of people for practical purposes lack a working brain, so they'll pay you to know what they really think. The trick is to convince them that you are protecting them from being controlled. This is disturbingly easy . . . .