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Really since the game's inception, there's been what's considered the "ideal" party, and the classic has generally been Fighter, Magic User, Cleric, Thief. But now that we've got such a wide selection of character classes in Pathfinder, there's more room than ever before to have a party custom tailored to whatever the situation is.
Because of this, I wonder what the 'ideal' party for most people is in a standard game (not obviously themed, such as 100% dungeon delving, social interaction, etc), the most balanced group of adventurers that you'd generally like to have for a standard 4 person party. How much has the concept of Fighter, Magic User, Cleric, Thief evolved with the inclusion of new classes and new options?
For me, it'd be
Alchemist (Thief role): Tons of skills and battle utility in buffing is a must for any party, as well as very competent in combat themselves, they've basically replaced the Rogue for me in all ways.
Barbarian (Fighter role): I personally think all classes should have a resource of some kind, and Rage works wonders for that, as well as Rage Powers giving tons of versatility to the class.
Arcanist (Magic User role): The blend of Wizard/Sorc here is strong, and it feels like such a forgiving class to new players as well as giving a lot of things that experienced players can use as well.
Cleric (Cleric role): Try as I might, I can't find anyone who does this job better, and domains and such are so rife for customization to the point where it's hard to outdo this class.
I still feel like the spirit of the base four roles exist, but with all the options out now, moving beyond them into different concepts seems like too much fun to me.
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My ideal party composition is 6 or fewer people who get along and can have fun playing the game. Class composition is secondary.
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My ideal party composition is 6 or fewer people who get along and can have fun playing the game. Class composition is secondary.Thank you for completely disregarding the idea behind this thread, this was a useful addition to this conversation.
Fighter type: Paladin: great evil slaying power and self heal.
Rogue type: Archeologist Bard: top tier trapsmith plus great lore
Arcanist type: this ones tricky and controversial but i would go Sage Sorcerer, I prefer spontanious Caster with well oiled spell choices. sometimes you need to spam a spell.
Cleric type: Merciful Healer Cleric: fantastic healing potential (used to be Life oracle but really like the 50% boost to healing spells.
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In PFS we've had a lot of success with a party that's roughly like this:
constant members:
Paladin (2H build) - hard-hitting, good Diplomacy and some knowledges, good Perception. Speaks a lot of languages.
Abyssal Bloodrager (claws/polearm) - hits hard, enormous fast-deployed area control by enlarging as free action during Rage and polearm reach. Also good Diplomacy.
Trapper Ranger/Living Monolith (2H build, Vital Strike) - enlarges as a swift action 3x/day. Adds more area control to what the bloodrager already brought. Significant knowledge/languages due to Living Monolith prerequisites. Deals with traps.
varying members:
Cleric, usually Sarenrae or Gozreh, providing buffing and healing, as well as some area attacks.
Arcane caster - varies, bard, summoner or weird build wizard/gunslinger/eldritch knight, or arcane trickster.
We've been quite successful in PFS. We're a bit weak on ranged and arcane casters, but in many scenarios that's surprisingly little problem. The enlarging melee types deploy a very fast forward offensive. Basically, all enemies are inside threatened areas after the first round, so all casters are on the defensive, and from round 2 on all attacks tend to be full attacks; often already in round 1 because enlarging is sort of a free 5ft step, combined with a 5ft step and 20ft polearm reach means most enemies are in reach in round 1. Focus fire tends to kill most bosses in 1-2 rounds.
We really enjoy playing with each other and we're good at working together. When we sign up for a scenario it's "We're on a mission from [Sarenrae]. We're bringing the band back together."
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Abstracting from this: an above-average amount of 2H melee types combined with some support casting can often overwhelm opponents. Having above-normal reach helps a lot against big enemies that normally use their superior reach to make things hard on the PCs, but the bloodrager out-reaches most monsters.
We'd have trouble in a fight in the open against flying enemies though, unless we got better arcane backup. Right now we carry potions of Fly just in case. A full arcane caster with Fly/Dimension Door would probably make us even more busted.
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Based on this, what kind of 4-player party would I want? I'd go with:
* Abyssal Bloodrager, polearm/combat reflexes build. Some social skills.
* Arcanist (Occultist) with some way of getting Trapfinding. Either Aram Zey's Focus, that trait from Mummy's Mask, or just sending in summoned monsters. Mental skill role.
* Cleric; gotta have one. Can do some of the social skills as well.
* Another 2H type or a switch hitter type if you're worried about ranged combat. Alternatively, an archer.
1. Daring Champion Cavalier with a trait to get stealth as a class skill
2. Archeologist Bard
3. Hedge Witch with trait to get stealth as a class skill
4. Inquisitor
All roles are covered with a primary and at least one backup character. The entire party can sneak so no one has to get left behind, or sent out alone. All skills should be able to be covered with some duplication. 3 characters able to heal in some way so the healing can be shared. ¾ of the party can cast spells. This party will be extremely good at finding things out. ¾ of the characters have the ability to significantly improve their combat ability for short periods, and the last can buff the group. When this group pulls out the stops they are going to be a very tough to deal with.
My ideal party composition is 6 or fewer people who get along and can have fun playing the game. Class composition is secondary.
This I've found is the true ideal party. Even if it's too vague to satisfy the original poster.
The only thing I'd add is that I personally prefer to see the majority of the party be of the most common race(s) to the area that we're adventuring in. All to often. I've seen this: predominately _____ area - and not one of them in the party. But plenty of strange stuff....
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Paladin, for tanking, healing, and most importantly, allowing me as the GM an excuse ban evil characters. Also covers str, con or cha related stuff, like say kingdom roles.
Arcanist, cause it's all the wizardly control fun, but much more flexible. Int and kinda cha.
Druid, for backup healing, backup control, backup tanking...pretty much can take over for any role the party needs, and also, someone has gotta have wisdom. Situationally very useful when you need him for nature stuff.
Bard or investigator for that skill monkey and buffer niche. Both tend to have high dex, one cha and the other int.
Covers all the bases from multiple angles.
Paladin, for tanking, healing, and most importantly, allowing me as the GM an excuse ban evil characters. Also covers str, con or cha related stuff, like say kingdom roles.
Arcanist, cause it's all the wizardly control fun, but much more flexible. Int and kinda cha.
Druid, for backup healing, backup control, backup tanking...pretty much can take over for any role the party needs, and also, someone has gotta have wisdom. Situationally very useful when you need him for nature stuff.
Bard or investigator for that skill monkey and buffer niche. Both tend to have high dex, one cha and the other int.
Covers all the bases from multiple angles.
This is a pretty good looking array.
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One handy tool to discuss Ideal Party Composition is the metaphor of Arm, Hammer, & Anvil in Tark's essay The Forge of Combat: Thoughts on victory and how the Group Achieves It. Like several posters above, this approach does away with the Skill Monkey, presumably by spreading out skills. Note that Tark's sample 4-member party includes a Hammer who doubles as a skill monkey.
The three combat roles are:
Arm - Support, buffs & healing
Hammer - Inflict HP damage
Anvil - Battlefield Control
The ideal party contains an Arm, an Anvil, and the rest Hammers. Note that characters can have a primary and secondary role. Count a secondary role as half-filling a role. For example, a battle cleric is an Arm with a secondary role as Hammer. A combat maneuver master is a Hammer who doubles as Anvil, presuming the ability to also inflict massive HP damage common to many maneuver builds. Specialists may lack a secondary role, but usually fill their chosen role especially well.
Here's how this metaphor fits all the examples people have given above.
*** From N. Jolly:
Alchemist - Hammer with a secondary role
Barbarian - Hammer
Arcanist - Anvil, possible secondary role as Arm
Cleric - Arm, possible secondary role
This party contains an Arm, an Anvil, and two Hammers. This is a well balanced, ideal party.
*** From kestral287:
Magus, Alchemist, or other ... to frontline - Hammer
Buff/debuff oriented character - Anvil
Skill-oriented character ... - Hammer, secondary skill monkey role
Cleric or Oracle - Arm
This party contains an Arm, an Anvil, and two Hammers. This is a well balanced, ideal party.
*** From Sneaksy Dragon
Fighter type - Hammer
Rogue type: Archeologist Bard - Hammer, secondary skill monkey role
Arcanist type: - Anvil
Cleric - Arm
This party contains an Arm, an Anvil, and two Hammers. This is a well balanced, ideal party.
*** From Ascalaphus
Abyssal Bloodrager - Hammer
Arcanist - Anvil
Cleric - Arm
Another 2H type or a switch hitter ... archer - Hammer
This party contains an Arm, an Anvil, and two Hammers. This is a well balanced, ideal party.
*** From Mysterious Stranger
Daring Champion Cavalier - Hammer
Archeologist Bard - Hammer with secondary skill monkey role
Hedge Witch - Anvil with secondary Arm role
Inquisitor - Hammer with a secondary Arm role
This party contains three Hammers and an Anvil. Two characters have a secondary Arm role, so Arm is also well covered. This is a well balanced, ideal party.
*** From Thegreenteagamer:
Paladin - Hammer, secondary Arm role
Arcanist - Anvil
Druid - Flexible role as Hammer, Arm, or Anvil
Bard or investigator - Arm, secondary Hammer
This very flexible party contains a dedicated Anvil and three characters able to fill multiple roles. When circumstance demands it the 3 flexible characters can be three Hammers, three Arms, an extra Anvil, or whatever mix is currently required. This is a well balanced, ideal party.
P.s. I up voted BOTH the snarky '6 real world friends is the ideal composition' and the comment criticizing it. No constancy here.
My group seems to prefer at least one paladin, one divine caster, a sorcerer or wizard, and the other three to vary as the group wishes. Of course, we also have a fondness for animal companies, such as familiars, mounts, and gnomes.
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My group seems to prefer at least one paladin, one divine caster, a sorcerer or wizard, and the other three to vary as the group wishes. Of course, we also have a fondness for animal companies, such as familiars, mounts, and gnomes.
That could be restated as "My group prefers a Hammer, an Arm, and an Anvil, with the other three to vary as the group wishes".
Paladin - Hammer
divine caster - Arm
sorcerer or wizard - Anvil
The basics are now all covered, so the other three can vary as the group wishes. This is an ideal, well balanced party.
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I prefer balance to optimization. So my ideal would be:
Inquisitor (Cleric) - 6th level casting with heals and some fine skills to boot.
Bard (Thief) - Can face, scout, skill-monkey and pretty much everything better than a rogue.
Ranger (Fighter) - Can do the heavy hitting and back up the Bard as a fellow scout.
Sorcerer (Wizard) - I've said before that Sorcerers would be about the only Full Caster I would keep if we slimmed the class list down. Spontaneous casting keeps it at least somewhat balanced and Sorcerers are just way more interesting, anyway.
My group seems to prefer at least one paladin, one divine caster, a sorcerer or wizard, and the other three to vary as the group wishes. Of course, we also have a fondness for animal companies, such as familiars, mounts, and gnomes.That could be restated as "My group prefers a Hammer, an Arm, and an Anvil, with the other three to vary as the group wishes".
Paladin - Hammer
divine caster - Arm
sorcerer or wizard - AnvilThe basics are now all covered, so the other three can vary as the group wishes. This is an ideal, well balanced party.
That's only if you play them in certain limited builds, which my group doesn't. Also, the roles can vary a lot depending on what we're up against and what the strategy is. There are circumstances where we've effectively used paladins as Anvils before.
My group (which was the only one to get complimented so far, and a great big "thank you" to DMCal) covers the arm/hammer/anvil pretty well. It actually was on my mind when I thought it up.
Paladin is the hammer, Druid is the arm, Arcanist is the anvil...if you go investigator it's a backup hammer, if you go bard, it's a backup anvil.
It also comprises the "traditional" roles. Pally is the meat shield, arcanist is the arcane, druid is the divine, and investigator/bard is the skill monkey.
I don't have certain classes, but I do like for certain rules to be filled. Sometimes one class can fill more than one roll.
The social guy who makes people be nice to us.
The perceptive guys normally having at least perception if not sense motive also.
The knowledge guys so we can know things.
The guy whose primary goal is to hurt things.
Someone to heal(remove curse/remove disease etc).
The magical utility guy, normally an arcane type.
A 2nd person whose goal is to do damage. He may be a secondary combatant or a primary combatant.
Let's See:
Druid - Comes with a free Fighter. Extremely strong at early levels. Can provide Battlefield Control, Support, and when needed insta-gib a BBEG with a single Bite.
Half-Elf Shaman - With it's FCB, flexible Hexes and flexible full access to the Sorcerer/Wizard list the Shaman can fill pretty much any role. Can use Paragon Surge to pick up Additional Traits and use your WIS on any STR, DEX, or CON skill. Or reduce the cost metamagic of a new spell. Or pick a new spell to Spell Perfection. Or...
Half-Elf False Priest Sage Sorcerer - Turn high cost scrolls into free money. Pseudo-full access to all Divine Spells. Can get Arcane Spells turned into Divine Spells by the Shaman above for things like cost free Permanency out of a 6th level slot. Is an incredible Skill Monkey that can disarm magical traps thanks to Aram Zey's Focus. Has tons of Spells Known thanks to the Human (you read that right) FCB. Can use Paragon Surge to pick up Additional Traits and use your INT on any CHA skill. Or reduce the cost of metamagic of a new spell. Or pick a new spell to Spell Perfection. Or...
Void School Wizard - Reveal Weakness = Dead Enemy. Oh and your also a full caster with the strongest class list.
Of course a super SAD CHA Spirit Guide Oracle would be a great addition as well. Really lots of other good choices, but the above would make a mighty scary party.
Let's See:
Druid - Comes with a free Fighter. Extremely strong at early levels. Can provide Battlefield Control, Support, and when needed insta-gib a BBEG with a single Bite.
Half-Elf Shaman - With it's FCB, flexible Hexes and flexible full access to the Sorcerer/Wizard list the Shaman can fill pretty much any role. Can use Paragon Surge to pick up Additional Traits and use your WIS on any STR, DEX, or CON skill. Or reduce the cost metamagic of a new spell. Or pick a new spell to Spell Perfection. Or...
Half-Elf False Priest Sage Sorcerer - Turn high cost scrolls into free money. Pseudo-full access to all Divine Spells. Can get Arcane Spells turned into Divine Spells by the Shaman above for things like cost free Permanency out of a 6th level slot. Is an incredible Skill Monkey that can disarm magical traps thanks to Aram Zey's Focus. Has tons of Spells Known thanks to the Human (you read that right) FCB. Can use Paragon Surge to pick up Additional Traits and use your INT on any CHA skill. Or reduce the cost of metamagic of a new spell. Or pick a new spell to Spell Perfection. Or...
Void School Wizard - Reveal Weakness = Dead Enemy. Oh and your also a full caster with the strongest class list.
Of course a super SAD CHA Spirit Guide Oracle would be a great addition as well. Really lots of other good choices, but the above would make a mighty scary party.
I still have shamans on my "to try" list due to something you told me a few weeks ago. I just have to get into another game so it can happen.
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I spent some time on this and have come to admit. I don't have an ideal four person party. And if I do it's not the classic "Fighter, Magic User, Cleric, Thief" setup.
However it would be interesting to see
Alchemist that is focused on Mutagens, and on self-healing so that he can dole out and take a ton of damage.
Skald Raging song is pretty awesome, and the fact that she'll pass on her rage powers to her allies can make a group pretty nasty
Slayer, Slayers are insane damage dealers. If they're using a weapon that has a high threat range they can get even more nasty.
Durid with large sized pet. (for extra fun, maybe a snake animal growth). Things just get crazy from there. Huge sized snakes do insane things.
Bard- Archery, Party Buffs, social skills. Spare source of dispel magics.
Hunter & Fido- Melee beat stick, tracker, another source of useful spells. Resist Energy as a first level? Protection from Energy+Communal Resist Energy as 2nd level spells? YES
Arcanist Many advantages to the Wizard counterbalanced VS less spells, slower progression, and no school. Less irritating to play.
Melee Inquisitor Another front liner, good damage, capable of strong burst, more spell support. Good domain selection gives him a pet, rage, or other fun stuff.
As a party they'd be able to infiltrate effectively without any clankers. In combat they have 2 characters and 1-2 companions as a front line. The Bard archer does very reliable damage when he's not casting a necessary spell. So many skills are covered and some are covered by multiple characters too.
Fun stuff.
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The non-optimized sample party in Forge of Combat is:
Archaeologist Bard - Archery, skills, & spells
Ranger & Fido - Melee beat stick, tracker, etc.
Wizard - Kinda like an Arcanist, but different.
Evangelist Reach Cleric - Fills same roles as melee inquisitor
See any common themes in what experienced players find makes an ideal balanced party?
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Depends on my mood. One possibility is:
Melee Investigator - The very best of skill monkeys, plus a very solid melee backup, probably using a Longspear.
Invulnerable Rager Barbarian - Exceedingly tough melee beatstick.
Arcanist - Primary offensive caster.
Evangelist Archer Cleric - Condition removal, party buffing, and ranged combat support.
Now I will answer this again assuming all of the players are clones of me.
Slayer-handles damage and traps
Cleric-healing, perception, combat, and some utility
Wizard-assuming I don't mind the book keeping
Bard-Force multiplier, more utility, and another combatant(possibly ranged) , and party face
If we are going with a 5 man party then the barbarian gets to sit up front with the slayer.
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Sorry for some mmorpg terms, but it sort of fits.
Heavy melee damage - Two handed weapon fighter, cavalier, paladin or barbarian, alternatively a two weapon fighter or ranger.
Ranged damage - Archer ranger, rogue, or slayer. A ray focused sorcerer could work.
Healing - A traditional cleric or druid role, but a bard, oracle, witch, or warpriest could work in a pinch.
Utility & crowd control - wizard or arcanist. I wish rogues could fit this role without spell-casting.
Party face & buffer/debuffer - Bard, the new occultist class might work here too.
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Paladin - tanking/damage/healing
Melee bard - buff / skills / flank buddy for pali - can be just as tanky since he doesn't need to focus on damage
Sorceror/Wizard (depends upon the campaign which is better) - primarily focused on battlefield control
Witch - Debuff craziness
Between the bard, the pali, and the witch you don't need a full time healer.
It wildly varies from party to party. In general though, I'd say a decent combination would be
Sword n Board Paladin,
Inquisitor (any melee or ranged) skill monkey,
Arcanist for versatility in Arcane spells,
and any full-BAB 4th to be the utility damage dealer (reach spec, dungeoncrasher, combat reflexes spec, AM BARBARIAN, etc), a battle Cleric, or a wild shape/summoning Druid.
More players allow for the holy 4 to extend themselves, reaching out to make character concepts that don't fit into traditional roles, but still covers the basics.
I'm an evolutionist summoner, so technically....
I'm Arm&Hammer :P
So the way to make a successful party with me is... battlefield control and more heavy hitters?
That would create a party with no healers... which is not an ideal party setup...
I've always disliked the hammer and anvil analogy
Didnt that originally come from mechwarrior?
On the other hand I totally agree with Mr.Doug. A mechanically ideal party makes for far less successful games overall than a party where everyone gets along. By at least a full order of magnitude.
I gave up on ideal party configurations because I found that I will build 12 characters and pick 1 in home games after everyone has picked what they want to play. Now I play PFS and have a bunch of 3-4 characters to pick from, which nets the same effect. My region has a lack of hammers, generally, so I've moved towards having more hammer-ish characters. I'm typically at a table of 6 when I play, which is also a completely different dynamic than the age-old 4 player party.
In a 4-player table:
Barbarian/Bloodrager (practically the same class)
Bard/Skald (practically the same class)
Arcanist
Oracle
In a 6-player table:
Barbarian/Bloodrager
Bard/Skald
Arcanist
Oracle
Ranger (Archery) or Zen Archer
Witch
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The group I played with that best stomped the bad guys was a 3.5 group, but I'll post it anyway:
elf scout/horizon walker focusing on archery
axe/shield dwarf fighter with 1 dip into barbarian
cleric/radiant servant of pelor
rogue/wizard/arcane trickster focusing on rays
wizard/archemage
Paladin/pious templar
The classes that no longer exist still have analogues in Pathfinder.
Paladin
Evangelist Cleric
Arcanist
Druid with animal companion
Is my personal favorite.
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I don't think a class composition is really all that meaningful anymore. you can build the 4 classic PC's and still have terrible party balance. you can build 4 bards and have great party balance.
What is more important is do you have the basic capabilities covered or a plan to get around needing them? If the answer is yes, you have a capable group. If the answer is no, you will probably have a difficulties coping.
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A full party of Half-Orc First Worlder Summoners, all with the sacred tattoo race trait, summoning pugwampis with Ferocity all over the place. And a GM who won't flip the table and walk off swearing.
Well, if our ideal is just to be silly, then a rogue, a fighter, a monk, and a fighter/rogue/monk multiclass.
My ideal party composition is 6 or fewer people who get along and can have fun playing the game. Class composition is secondary.Thank you for completely disregarding the idea behind this thread, this was a useful addition to this conversation.
To be fair, though, your question was loaded in the first place. You, yourself, and just about everyone else, is really just saying "fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue," only under guise of other classes that are just fancier ways of filling the same iconic roles.
And the game always had at least some alternatives. The Druid has been alternate to the cleric (existing as a subset) from just about the beginning, and you could even have considered the dwarf (yes, otherwise a race) to be an alternative to human fighter in some of the basic boxes.
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4 bards.
Thundercaller for AoE crowd control/damage.
Arcane Healer for group healing as needed.
Arcane Duelist for tanking and general combat buffing.
Archaeologist for a stacking bonus with the other bards, great damage, and rogue talents.
Everybody has the capacity to participate in every aspect of the game, and can somewhat act as a backup for everyone else's roles. If I have additional players, we could add a Magician bard and/or a Voice of the Wild bard for the added utility and spell variety.
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Ideal party composition:
Someone who can sufficiently compromise with others so as to handle phoning in a pizza delivery and getting all the toppings correct.
Someone who is willing to be the mapper.
Someone with sufficient playing space to host the event.
Someone who enjoys being detail oriented to be the party record keeper.
An original thinker who can imagine novel solutions to seemingly insurmountable obstacles.
I think that about covers it.. no matter what character classes they play, the party is primed for success.