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So it's the next session of the campaign. The dragon's HP 750, SR was still 31, but it's saves were ridiculous. It's gargantuan, it's saves were fort 34, ref 40, will 30. Yeah, my wizard is so useless with this. It's AC was 44 and touch AC was 25. AND it had evasion. Yeah, my blaster wizard was super useless.
This is mainly to update those curious about my first post about what the next encounter was like.
So a creature the size of a barn has evasion? Not to mention a touch AC of 25. Um OK, the Dex most be astronomical besides trying to wrap my head around a gargantuan dragon going all matrix on you.
Where are these numbers coming from?
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Stupid question but were you meant to fight this creature?
I mean sometime a GM will throw an impossible challenge at a party as a plot device... every once in a while the players choose to fight rather than run.
say thx your a wizard and not a sourcerr.
adjust your spells. get more buffs sand summons to help the party. resistance too. and look for the loop's like spells with no saves or no sr. take the touch attac kspells that don't go away untill you hit and use someway to dela them from afar(does pathfinder has a spell like the 3.5 D&D 3rd level spell that make a ghost hand thingy to deliver touch attacks?)
So a creature the size of a barn has evasion? Not to mention a touch AC of 25. Um OK, the Dex most be astronomical besides trying to wrap my head around a gargantuan dragon going all matrix on you.
It may have just been wearing a Ring of Evasion. Still though, dragons usually have awful reflex saves and these have obviously been artificially inflated for the sole purpose of screwing over the OP...
No we were meant to fight this dragon. When we get a quest to go kill this dragon, I'm pretty sure we're meant to fight it.
say thx your a wizard and not a sourcerr.
adjust your spells. get more buffs sand summons to help the party. resistance too. and look for the loop's like spells with no saves or no sr. take the touch attac kspells that don't go away untill you hit and use someway to dela them from afar(does pathfinder has a spell like the 3.5 D&D 3rd level spell that make a ghost hand thingy to deliver touch attacks?)
It's touch AC was 25, not a good chance that my wizard is going to hit that. I'm lv 13, so BAB is 6, + str means needing an 18 to hit.
I assumed it was natural because the OP gave the stats but your right it could be an item but that touch AC and reflex is still crazy and a ring of evasion isn't that great without at least good reflex saves.
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Perhaps if you link to the original thread where your GM said they were going to raise all the SR in the dragon fighting game, you will get more help.
I can only say stay if it is fun and leave if it is not. I doubt it will get any easier. You could always keep doing the same thing until the inflated stats cause a TPK. You could try talking it over with your GM, but I assume you already have.
Where are these numbers coming from?
I don't know what he's using as a basis for his dragons, but the GM is raising the stats of the dragons to make for hard fights. And I feel that he's just nerfing spellcasters, which is me since I'm the only caster. I also feel he doesn't really realize what he's doing because he doesn't play spellcasters. And when I mentioned it last session he said to quit being a baby about it. But this time instead of a huge spell res he just jacked the saves and gave evasion.
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So roll a martial?
So roll a martial?
I SOOOOOOOOOO want to right now. This is getting ridiculous. I mean, ac 44 is pretty high, but not impossible. These Saving throws are impossible for a lv13 character to challenge.
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Since the GM is nerfing you from directly affecting the monsters, and you don't want to stop playing with him I suggest you try to change class or do things that don't allow saves or SR, and/or don't directly target an enemy. Being a force multiplier can be useful.
edit: Added the word "don't"
^or that. Buff the martials. Be a team player. The message you're strongly getting seems to be "spells shouldn't get in the way of epic struggles between knights and dragons." So let them enhance that image instead.
So what did happen in the encounter? How many characters were in the party and how many survived?
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What was your reason for not leaving again? Your GM obviously gives no f%~$s about your opinion or complaints (not even to the point he PRETENDS to care, since he basically told you to piss off). That's not the kind of person I'd be playing with.
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[My party is fighting a monster with these statistics
Type: Dragon
HP 750
AC 44, Touch 25
SR 31
Fort 34
Ref 40
Will 30
Special qualities: Evasion.]
I'm lv[l] 13[.]
Lets compare this dragon with Astarathian, the CR 27 Gold Dragon that is detailed in Dragons Revisited.
HP 717AC 54, Touch 10
SR 33
Fort +33
Ref +22
Will +35
Special Qualities: Does not have Evasion.
Basically, your GM's "dragon" could take on one of the most powerful dragons on Golarion. I call bullcrap on how exactly you are supposed to even stand a chance. This is basically your GM being an idiot unless there is some method by which you are supposed to kill this thing that could probably solo the tarrasque.
This monster is not intended for a level 13 party. If he thinks it is then he has his head shoved up his ego. He is basically saying, "See how powerful I am? I am the GM! I can make creatures you have a 0% chance of defeating because my dick is HUGE! Totally. No, seriously.
There is no reason level 13 characters should be fighting this. It has more than 10 levels on you. Just don't even bother playing unless you are supposed to drop a boulder the size of the moon on it—but watch it, it might make its reflex save for no damage because the GM says so.
Where are these numbers coming from?[W]hen I mentioned it last session he said to quit being a baby about it. But this time instead of a huge spell res he just jacked the saves and gave evasion.
He is basically just bullying you with monsters. The trick is to just not play with people like this. Your input and opinions do not mean anything to this man. You should be demanding where in the hell this creatures statistics are coming from, and if he can't deal with the fact that you're going to hold him to monster creation guidelines since you can't trust him to not castrate your characters then you should not torture yourself by being a part of his personal power fantasy.
If the GM wants to play an antagonistic game where he neutralizes your character then get antagonistic. This will result in you either leaving the game by your own volition, him kicking you out of the game which ends with the perk of not having to put up with his crap or him realizing that what he is doing is inherently wrong in the context of the gaming system which leads to his adjustment of his GMing style. The lattermost is rare, the formermost is your best choice and the second is the likely result.Don't play with this man. He obviously does not respect his players and therefore the players should not respect or trust him. GMs have to earn the respect and trust of their players, and if they do not do that then they do not deserve it.
If a GM ever told me to stop being a baby about something I brought up as a concern I would respond with "F@$# you" and not even tell him I'm not coming back. He doesn't even deserve the time it would take me to inform him that I am either starting my own game or joining someone else's.
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or maybe pick up the create demiplane spell when you get the chance and tell the others have fun protecting this plane of existence you are going to make your own. I mean seriously your DM seems to be out to shut you down in the most childish way possible. Those saves are like 10 to 20 points higher then what you should expect at your level.
Thanks for the update, but I know I'd just quit. This GM is worthless. Yes, there are ways to adjust. But I wouldn't want to play at all with a GM who decides to nerf a character like that.
Not to mention one that talks down to and chides you for voicing your concerns.
I'm almost ready to quit, but this is the only pathfinder group I know of, and I have a friend in it and the others are kinda friends now as this is the second campaign with most of them (the paladin was the last GM).
Also the only reason they don't party wipe us is the GM is awful at tactics for these dragons. This one came up to us, making it so he was surrounded, and then used a breath attack on 2 members of the party. This meant that our TWF dragonslaying ranger, our TWF rogue, and paladin, all got flanking, so sneak attack, and full attacks all around. So it's a martials dream, the dragon comes to us, and then just sits there. This GM has never used a full attack with a dragon (which I think needs like a 2 to miss on any of his attacks), He really likes the breath weapons, but only at close range. He's never used the dragons 120ft range on that breath to the dragon's advantage. Never used flight or the reach to his advantage. We have 3 melee people and the dragon comes in melee range and breath weapons. So since the three of them can dish out hundreds of damage a round, he feels it's okay (he's probably going to make the next one even harder since this fight still only lasted a few rounds), and he nerfs the hell out of me because any status on the dragons and it's even more dead. Or being able to damage it from range if it tries to run away makes it so it can't run away safely.
But this means that the three melee's are fine with what's going on. They are able to take down the big dragons and feel awesome. And they don't care about me and what magic I can do because it's worthless. Who needs someone to cast fly when the dragon comes to you? Who needs heroism when the dragon lets you flank it? Who needs invisability when the GM made a RING OF PERMANENT GREATER INVIS for the rogue. Who needs SoS spells when they are impossible to pull off? Who needs someone to give you a swim speed when the GM lets them move their full normal movement in the water with no check?
To sum up, this is "dream situation for melee" of always full attacks and flanking for the melee people and a nightmare for me, the caster.
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Meetup.com
Roll20
or just install Everquest.
or just go read a book.
It's touch AC was 25, not a good chance that my wizard is going to hit that. I'm lv 13, so BAB is 6, + str means needing an 18 to hit.
don't you have true strike? at level 13 you should have it quickend as well
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[D]on't you have true strike? [A]t level 13 you should have it quickend as well[.]It's touch AC was 25, not a good chance that my wizard is going to hit that. I'm lv 13, so BAB is 6, + str means needing an 18 to hit.
First off encounter and monster design in Pathfinder is built around the axiom that the PC classes should be able to overcome any encounter within their CR range given the party is balanced. Something such as Truestrike is intended to be a guarantee of a hit and not something that is required to hit. Truestrike is more or less the "I hit you" spell," doubly so when it is VS touch.
Quickened Truestrike takes a level 5 slot. A level 5 slot that is more or less required to hit. No. Just, no. Don't do that crap. Seriously. It is about as anti-player as you can get.If billy needs to expend both a level 5 slot and a level 2 slot just to hit a GARGANTUAN CREATURE with a ray spell that is intended to hit in the majority of circumstances then the GM has no idea what he is doing in his monster design.
Do not make excuses for this garbage.
i did not make excuses. i just offerd ways to overcome the problem the gm put him in. of cuarse my very 1st advice would have been "go get something to throw at your gm" but he asked how to deal with it as his character not as himself.
that said i find that spending a 5th level spell to nail a very high objective with a good no save spell like besow curse is a well spent 5th level spell. (if you got 2 rounds just use the 1st level spell. thisis just if you got 1 shot at it.hell if you have hero points in the game just burn one for the out of turn action instead)
do note. if the gm is out to get you, you have very littile to do in character. might as well find someone who actuly want to play WITH you as opposed to AGAINST you.
you need to decide if you trust the GM to be GM. If yes tabe a biscuit, and play along in a World where martials seem to be better of than casters. If not leave and let the others enjoy the game.
Knowledge of coming battles like you seem to have in this game is a great thing and for prepared casters more than any other.
So play to that knowledge. Make 6 named bullets to the gunslinger if the dragon have good saves. Pelt it with the snowball Spell and stuff like that if it have good SR.
And most of all remember that being the guy that belived he would rule but dosent can be a very funny character to play, but not a funny one to be.
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don't you have true strike? at level 13 you should have it quickend as wellIt's touch AC was 25, not a good chance that my wizard is going to hit that. I'm lv 13, so BAB is 6, + str means needing an 18 to hit.
I am sure after this happens once the dragon's touch AC will increase by 15.
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Maybe think around the stats. Giant boulders, shrink item, fly, Bag of Holding and let it Start raining Mountains.
Nah, the dragon just has his anti boulder gear set up for that.
the dragon probebly has reverse gravity effect at will item
i must say tho. i was moved by this thread to start my own:
"you know the GM is out to get you when"
No we were meant to fight this dragon. When we get a quest to go kill this dragon, I'm pretty sure we're meant to fight it.
I don't know if your DM would go that far but have you considered that it might have been a "death trap" by an evil, phenomenaly good, guy,that you had to evade somehow, or a reason to meet that particular dragon for plot reasons, as someone before me said?
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No we were meant to fight this dragon. When we get a quest to go kill this dragon, I'm pretty sure we're meant to fight it.I don't know if your DM would go that far but have considered that it might have been a "death trap" by an evil, phenomenaly good, guy,that you had to evade somehow, or a reason to meet that particular dragon for plot reasons, as someone before me said?
They already fought another souped up dragon. The campaign is sort of about an invasion of dragons from another dimension, and super crazy tough dragons are going to be the main enemy.
Advice... advice...
1) If only martial characters get respect in this game, arrange for your wizard character to die, and roll up a martial.
2) If you really want to keep trying to push the envelope with the wizard, then you've got to explore options beyond blasting. Be a GOD wizard, fer cryin out loud.
3) Step up, and offer to DM a few sessions. Sounds like it's a group of friends, just be a friend and offer to DM.
I mean, it sounds like you've pretty much gone the distance with the unbeatable dragon trope. And that will also give you the opportunity to use some more intelligent tactics with the next dragon.
Lastly, it's all well and good for folks on these boards to basj your DM, given the few scraps of information we've got about him, but the only real way to fight against bad DMing is either to leave the group or offer to DM yourself.
... I will say that for a dragon fighting campaign, a blaster wizard would be my absolute last choice in wizards. Too many spells will end up foiled by SR and typically, a dragon would be mobile enough to need the caster to be moving the martials about the field so they can engage the dragon. ....
The PF system really doesn't favor blaster casters. Most especially PF doesn't favor blasters that focus on blasting so heavily that they are not very good at anything else.
One of my friends used to really like blaster casters. What he said was "I have to really focus and take absolutely everything possible to get my blasts to work most of the time."So that tells me you already know blasting doesn't work well and are trying really hard to make it work anyway. Why not try something else?
(You can get some of the same thing with the other specialties. I've seen people with excellent enchanters get irritated that the module doesn't have anything that can be charmed.)
My friends latest caster doesn't have a theme like blaster or controller or enchanter. he is going for the 'whatever is appropriate' caster. He has a high casting stat and greater spell penetration. He has some AoE blast spells, but only uses them when their are a bunch of opponents that seem likely to be affected. He occasionally summons a creature when additional flanking or blocking is needed. He casts battlefield control spells to break up enemy formations. He casts a debuff when that seems most appropriate. Often he will buff the others in the party.
It is, by far, the most effective caster I have ever seen him play. Even though he rarely ends/wins a combat all by himself, he always contributes to the final victory.
However, I will also say it is more work than any 3 other character I've seen him play. He is constantly checking / reading spells to try and figure out what the most effective ones will be in X situation.
Even though he is having fun, he said he probably won't do it again just because it is so much work. I can certainly understand that.
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I haven't met many, but there are some GM's/players that want a long epic struggle combat. However, they are actually bad at setting those up (of course they don't realize they are bad at it). So they just up the defenses hugely to make it take longer.
The common complaint about those types of GM's is that casters end things instantly. So they up the magical defenses even more than the physical defenses.
Think about some of the old video games you played. The final fight was usually one big opponent. Usually slow and powerful but very difficult to hurt. If the game gave you any insta-kill abilities they for some reason didn't work on the final guy (or only to minor effect). So you dodge around hitting/shooting/blasting the final guy for a really long time until it is eventually defeated.
An important thing to remember is that some people do like this type of gaming. (I am not one of them, but I've met some.) The rest of the group seems to be having fun.
However, it is rather sad that none of them seem to care that one member of the 'team' is not. I personally would be more than a little irritated by the 'don't be a baby' comments unless you were whining when you said it. I'm curious what the age range of the players and GM are. That just doesn't sound like the kinds of things an adult says.
My advice if you don't want to quit. Next session say, "Ok, you obviously don't want me to play a caster. I wish you had just said that rather than artificially crippling my guy. Here is the X (whatever martial build) I have built to replace the retiring wizard."
Make something not too vastly different from the other players since it doesn't sound like he want something different that is surprisingly effective. So if no one else is using natural weapons or archery, I probably wouldn't take the chance either. I guess I would also suggest something that concentrates on defenses rather than huge damage. Since he appears to want a long drawn out struggle, if you just find another way to end it quickly he will still want to find a way to stop you.
So have good saves and evasion yourself. have good HP / AC / DR so the physical attacks don't take you down too quickly.
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I'm sorry to say this but as soon as any person says "Quit being a baby" when I express dislike of a ruling or gaming situation I am done with that person. Who the f**k thinks they can talk to someone like that without a bunch of players that don't want to play with a bully GM? Even if I was one of the other players in the game I would have been out, how dare you disrespect and degrade another player in front of everyone...I don't want to around people like this in a paying job or life in general, why the hell would I put up with that treatment during my fun recreational time.
Most of my old groups would have banded together and told him to leave. We play a co-op game, not a GM is God VS the players.
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I really don't understand what's the point of creating exact same thread about your GM again. You got like 200+ responses in your former thread and most of them are of same mindset as now.
Yes, his idea of challenge is terrible and yes, it's unfair to nerf your character to oblivion, but dude... Just speak up to him and make your stand already or be forever silent about it.
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Funny how he sees the martials doing all the damage and taking out his impossibly toughened up dragon, and he thinks spellcasters are overpowered. For a gargantuan creature to have a Touch AC of 25, he needs to have a combined Dex and Deflection bonus to AC of 21. Assuming he has a +5 ring of protection, he's sporting a Dex of 42. An Ancient Red Dragon from the PFSRD with half as many hit points has a Dex of 8. Older dragons have lower than that. And that would make his regular AC a 50, but the martials can still hit it.
He's obviously just making up the numbers based on what he knows you can't roll, and tossing out the monster building rules. We all know the rules are just guidelines, and a GM can make up whatever house rules he wants to. His house rules seem to be "Add numbers to everything until the wizard automatically fails."
He should have told you up front he doesn't want spellcasters in the game. You've told him your issues with it, and he told you to suck it up. So, he's not open to negotiation on fairness. You said you wanted to be a blasting wizard, so changing your spell list to spells that buff the martials or controlling the battlefield is (judging from the previous thread) not something you're interested in. And I suspect the GM would likewise ignore controlling spells as well, though that is just a guess.
That leaves you with two choices: you can either change characters or change games.
ETA: Three choices: The third is to run your own game.
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As some of the other posters have advised: Just walk away and refuse to participate in sessions which this guy is GM'ing. I made that very same decision recently, in relation to one GM among a group with whom I've met up with over the last couple of years at various PFS days and Cons. Playing with GM's like this will only wreck your head, ruin your enjoyment of the game and inevitably lead to conflict that spoils the experience for you and your fellow-players. Thankfully, such bullying, ignorant individuals like him are few and far between. Hope you've better times in the future and happy gaming!
As some of the other posters have advised: Just walk away and refuse to participate in sessions which this guy is GM'ing. I made that very same decision recently, in relation to one GM among a group with whom I've met up with over the last couple of years at various PFS days and Cons. Playing with GM's like this will only wreck your head, ruin your enjoyment of the game and inevitably lead to conflict that spoils the experience for you and your fellow-players. Thankfully, such bullying, ignorant individuals like him are few and far between. Hope you've better times in the future and happy gaming!
Trust Harry Flashman to run away. But I can't argue his knowledge of bullying ignorant individuals. You should hear what I was just reading not twenty minutes ago about his behavior as a political in the Sikh War.
Do you know that guy that only comes to the game to eat snacks, drink whatever apropiated for his age, chit-chat continuosly, get distracted and be a distraction, making his turn an eternity as he hesitates even to take a simple decision, just because he does not care the game, just the quality time with friends? (not to say with a complete array of spells that he has to look at the rulebook continuosly)
Easy you mind, enjoy you friends and be that guy, until next campaing and GM. Just enjoy your time, like them are doing, don't get bitter about it.