Cayden Cailean because this sort of thing is what he does
Calistria because I just see her finding the overly repressing Cheliax as due some pain for the inconvenience caused chaotic worshipers.
Shelyn, because her church is in one of the few religions of good that's held onto a lot of power and can take an open stand.
And possibly Sarenrae. I mean, the whole nation needs redeemed, but I also like the idea of her getting one up on Asmodeus' plans for once.
Asmodeus, of course. House Thrune has outlasted its usefulness, it's time for a fresh new perspective on things.
Damn it, I was going to choose him! But more of a heretical offshoot of his religion who are LN and believe Asmodeus can ultimately be redeemed if enough good-aligned people worship him.
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i'm actually becoming a big big fan of Brigh:)
MILANI FOR GREAT JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Desna, you can't go wrong with a giant alien butterfly from space with deific powers:)
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I had also considered a Cleric/Inquisitor/Warpriest of Achaekek, play one that takes a different approach to the situation. One that considers the current regime of Cheliax (the Thrune/Asmodeus situation) to be unrightful leadership of the nation, bent on aiding in dethroning Thrune for the appropriate individuals to take power.
In theory the character would believe that since Cheliax was a nation devoted to Aroden, it would be the correct path for Iomadae to take up patronage of the nation. Divine Law mandate and all that. To this character Asmodeus performed the equivalent of a land grab, or hostile take over in the wake of Aroden's disappearance.
Iomedae. Especially if I get to use my Chelaxian Daring Champion character idea. Alternatively Ragathiel for righteous vengeance against evil.
A cleric of Asmodeus would be interesting cleric to play as would one of Ragathiel or even another of the Lords of the 9.
Count me in as another vote for Arshea, assuming it's not too late to do so for what James is doing.
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At this point, the main thing I wanted to see was if there were any deities that kept coming up on the list that I had NOT thought of for the player's guide. And it looks pretty solid; the ones that come up the most often are represented. Ones that have been mentioned once or twice, while they may be interesting, tend to have been mentioned only once or twice because they're relatively obscure, haven't gained enough popularity, or just aren't really thematically appropriate for the AP and so not many people have mentioned them. Doesn't mean they're bad choices; in fact, they're probably good choices (particularly as far as playing unique characters goes), but don't expect a lot of support for them in the player's guide.
For that matter... don't expect a lot of Asmodeus worshipers in your Hell's Rebels game... that's just about the worst choice for a player character of them all! Probably a worse choice than a paladin for Skull & Shackles... which also probably means folks will do their best to make it work.
But Hell's Rebels is very much what I would quantify as the "chaotic good" Adventure Path. You can worship a lawful character (such as a paladin of Iomedae) as long as you are at peace with or excited about the concept that your character will need to focus more on the "good" side of the "lawful good" alignment, and may now and then have to make some tough decisions... but lawful evil? Not gonna fit well at all, and your GM to be will thank you for saving that character concept for a different campaign. ;-P
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What about a Lawful Neutral character who has the bright idea that the people in charge of Cheliax are horribly mis-dis-re-interpretating the teachings of Dark Prince?
Worshiping Asmodeus is worshiping Asmodeus, whether or not you do it right (and are lawful evil) or do it heretically (and are lawful neutral or neutral evil). All are wholly inappropriate character choices in this AP that will force your GM to make a fair amount of changes to the plot in order to accommodate your square peg of a character into the round hole of the Adventure Path.
Save that character idea for another campaign. Your GM is busy enough. What with being the GM and all that.
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Just realized how appropriate it'd be to have characters that worship either Norgorber or Calistria for their interests in secrets. I'm sure there are all sorts of skeleton (devils) in the closet of Cheliax, and both deities are keen to learn of them.
Now I just personally need to decide on the class...
I agree with most of the choices people have put in above, so rather than just put a Me Too on them, here's a couple that I haven't seen yet.
1. No deity at all -- the character is rebelling against deities as well as devils, although just to mess this character up, their class might be Oracle or out-of-the-box Heretic Inquisitor. May or may not have a connection to Rahadoum.
2. What if some devil decided to rebel against Hell, and decided that this was the perfect time to try to go Good?
Edit: 3. Actually Pharasma has been mentioned once already, but since obviously a rebellion is going to have a lot of people dying in it, this fits, but despite the deaths most likely (although not absolutely necessarily) occurring by a different mechanism it reminds me of this scene.
I forget the name - but the one that is all about setting free the oppressed.
Much like this being the wrong AP to be an Asmodeus worshiper, would it also be fair to say that this is the wrong AP for being a Hellknight?
I'd imagine an Asmodeus worshiper's going to be as awkward in this AP as an Urgathoa worshiper would be in Curse of the Crimson Throne or Carrion Crown.
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Much like this being the wrong AP to be an Asmodeus worshiper, would it also be fair to say that this is the wrong AP for being a Hellknight?
I'd imagine an Asmodeus worshiper's going to be as awkward in this AP as an Urgathoa worshiper would be in Curse of the Crimson Throne or Carrion Crown.
It's possible to play a hellknight in this AP, but tricky. You'll have to wait and see.
Although I cannot yet claim to be an expert on Hellknight studies, it seems that not all of them are necessarily on friendly terms with Diabolists, even though they have considerably overlapping alignments. From what I can tell from scattered reading about both factions, while Diabolists want to bring the world under the rule of Hell (with themselves in high positions in Hell, of course), Hellknights want to emulate the practices of Hell better than Hell so that Hell itself cannot take them over. Plenty of room for violent disagreement there, even when their alignments match.
I forget the name - but the one that is all about setting free the oppressed.Moses?
Ted?
OK, since the Word of God says Asmodeus is a bad idea, I'm going to go with Ragathiel.
Raggy: "I SHALL KILLMURDERGENOCIDE YOU ALL IN THE NAME OF GREATER GOOD!"
Devils: Hey, man, but you're, huh, one of us basically.
Raggy: "*sobs* STOP REMINDING ME! BURNINATE!"
Aargh! At first I sort of skipped over the last 'B' in that, and now I've got this, um, altered scene I can't get out of my head . . . :-P
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Honestly, I think a CG worshiper of a redeemed Nocticula would be fun.
Oh, yeah, has it ever been established in lore after Wrath of the Righteous whether this actually happened?
{Need to insert Spoiler here}
Speaking of Wrath of the Righteous, Baphomet (or at least his followers sort of prominently feature in there (at least early on), and Baphomet is known for being anti-Asmodeus . . . .
Neutral half-elven oracle of flame mysteries from the border of Kyonin and Tanglebriar who finds balance in the healing flames of Saranae and the cleansing fires of Asmodeus.
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Don't expect a lot of Asmodeus worshipers in your Hell's Rebels game... that's just about the worst choice for a player character of them all!
But Hell's Rebels is very much what I would quantify as the "chaotic good" Adventure Path...
Chaos is anathema to me, but this AP gives me hope to see a new archetype for LE antipaladins of Asmodeus...
Am I sorely deluded?
You absolutely are. That's not the point of this AP. If you hate chaos, you might want to sit out this Adventure Path.
Our solution for the folks who want to play "lawful evil antipaladins" at this point is the warpriest, in any event.
^Or the HellKnight?
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^Or the HellKnight?
That's more accurately thought of as a "lawful neutral" paladin.
The fact that plain old lawful good paladins can be Hellknights too complicates matters. As does the fact that it's not a base class in the first place, which is kind of also the point when it comes to offering something like a Warpriest that allows you to play a "paladin of a non LG alignment" from the start.
Someone said Zon-Kuthon which I back because his church is a part of the country and their being an unlikely yet not unmotivated group when it turns to stirring up Hell in Chelliax seems too interesting enough to pass up if anyone would let me.
But besides that, I'm going to also throw Shelyn in there because she's not completely banned either and the ties with art and opera within the city make some interesting hooks.
If I really really really get a ton of leeway to do whatever I want, I'd say Lamashtu because I'm pretty sure I read she's got a beef with Big Red. But I feel I'd be about as likely to get permission to do Asmodeus. I feel pretty much any chaotic religion could potentially fit. Also Gixx and Norgorber for angry halflings.
Rahadoum's close by, which I dig but this is pretty much a cleric thread and you can't have an aggressively goddless cleric.
That's more accurately thought of as a "lawful neutral" paladin.^Or the HellKnight?
CAN be Lawful Neutral, but also accepts the neighboring Lawful alignments.
The fact that plain old lawful good paladins can be Hellknights too complicates matters. As does the fact that it's not a base class in the first place, which is kind of also the point when it comes to offering something like a Warpriest that allows you to play a "paladin of a non LG alignment" from the start.
Well, that takes us back to the question of why we don't have a Holy Warrior base class that accepts alignments other than Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil. (Alternatively, you can turn this on its head and ask why Paladin and Antipaladin aren't Prestige Classes, but the answer to that is obviously historical reasons.)
I haven't heard anything about the Hell's Rebels AP. Where can I learn more about it?
The fact that plain old lawful good paladins can be Hellknights too complicates matters. As does the fact that it's not a base class in the first place, which is kind of also the point when it comes to offering something like a Warpriest that allows you to play a "paladin of a non LG alignment" from the start.Well, that takes us back to the question of why we don't have a Holy Warrior base class that accepts alignments other than Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil. (Alternatively, you can turn this on its head and ask why Paladin and Antipaladin aren't Prestige Classes, but the answer to that is obviously historical reasons.)
That is exactly what James is stating that the Warpriest is intended to be.
That is exactly what James is stating that the Warpriest is intended to be.
The fact that plain old lawful good paladins can be Hellknights too complicates matters. As does the fact that it's not a base class in the first place, which is kind of also the point when it comes to offering something like a Warpriest that allows you to play a "paladin of a non LG alignment" from the start.Well, that takes us back to the question of why we don't have a Holy Warrior base class that accepts alignments other than Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil. (Alternatively, you can turn this on its head and ask why Paladin and Antipaladin aren't Prestige Classes, but the answer to that is obviously historical reasons.)
And UAE is saying Warpriest doesn't do the job.
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I haven't heard anything about the Hell's Rebels AP. Where can I learn more about it?
There are a couple of tangental threads, but most of the information is collected in this thread.
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-I think I'll go for Irori, actually. Self-improvement is his main schtick and Asmodeus/House Thrune are 100% not okay with that. You're born into your life and don't you dare hope for anything better. I can see Irorans having a big problem with that. I know there's an order of Iroran archivists who try to preserve Chelish history from Thrune's editing/falsifying.
-A Calistria that starts working against the empire could say "Why the Hell not?" and play it off like they're just in the rebellion for kicks, but at heart is a passionate believer in freedom. Could work for Gorum or Cayden Cailean as well.
-Mystery cultist of Olheon (Good/Nobility domains) who wants to redeem Abrogail. "I know that you're better than they think you are. I know you're better than *you* think you are. Let's show them, together."
And UAE is saying Warpriest doesn't do the job.{. . .}
That is exactly what James is stating that the Warpriest is intended to be.
Well, not TOTALLY doesn't do the job, but seems somewhat lackluster at both the Warrior (d8, 3/4 BAB) and Priest (slowed spellcasting progression with no early entry spells) parts of the job. I want a full set of d10, full BAB, 4/9 spellcasting Holy Warriors (use 1 class tent, but then split out paths by groups of religions, as opposed to specific alignments, and have a tailored spell list using the Paladin/Antipaladin spell lists and to a lesser extent the Inquisitor spell list as guides but not straitjackets).
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-A Calistria that starts working against the empire could say "Why the Hell not?" and play it off like they're just in the rebellion for kicks, but at heart is a passionate believer in freedom. Could work for Gorum or Cayden Cailean as well.
Interesting choice of words (bolded) . . . .
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And UAE is saying Warpriest doesn't do the job.{. . .}
That is exactly what James is stating that the Warpriest is intended to be.Well, not TOTALLY doesn't do the job, but seems somewhat lackluster at both the Warrior (d8, 3/4 BAB) and Priest (slowed spellcasting progression with no early entry spells) parts of the job. I want a full set of d10, full BAB, 4/9 spellcasting Holy Warriors (use 1 class tent, but then split out paths by groups of religions, as opposed to specific alignments, and have a tailored spell list using the Paladin/Antipaladin spell lists and to a lesser extent the Inquisitor spell list as guides but not straitjackets).
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-A Calistria that starts working against the empire could say "Why the Hell not?" and play it off like they're just in the rebellion for kicks, but at heart is a passionate believer in freedom. Could work for Gorum or Cayden Cailean as well.Interesting choice of words (bolded) . . . .
Whether or not the warpriest does the job or not... my understanding was that it was intended to be our answer to the "Paladin of any alignment." I was not involved in the design process of the Warpriest. It's certainly possible that design mandate for the class never moved beyond my initial involvement a year + ago when we were spitballing ideas for the classes in the initial "What do we do for Gen Con 2014's hardcover book?" meeting.
Anyway... if it doesn't do the job, then it doesn't do the job, and I retract my suggestion. Sorry!
But you have to understand that the idea of a full BAB class that ALSO has more spellcasting than 4 levels (like a paladin or ranger) is not gonna happen.
{. . .}
But you have to understand that the idea of a full BAB class that ALSO has more spellcasting than 4 levels (like a paladin or ranger) is not gonna happen.
And I wouldn't want it to. But what I would want to happen is a d10 Full BAB 4/9 spellcasting(*) Holy Warrior class of which Paladin and Antipaladin would be Archetypes, with spell list built from the Paladin and Antipaladin spell lists (possibly with the odd Inquisitor spell thrown in).
(*)Spellcasting tradable for alternate Class Features like Warrior of the Holy Light exchanging Paladin Spells for Power of Faith as things stand now.
Alternatively (or maybe even in addition) have Holy Warrior be a collection of Prestige Classes primarily intended for full martial (non-casting) Base Classes (especially but not necessarily limited to Cavalier/Samurai), that gets its own 4/9 spellcasting progression (starting at Level 1 of the Prestige Class to avoid losing too many Caster Levels). Unfortunately, this approach is hampered by D&D 3.x legacy issues, although D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana did offer a Prestige Paladin 15 Level Prestige Class (also Prestige Ranger and Prestige Bard).
The reason behind having a Prestige Holy Warrior (and for that matter, Prestige Inquisitor if you really want to get your hands dirty rebuildijng stuff) is that most faiths wouldn't want to trust just any Cavalier/Cleric/Druid/Oracle off the street to be a paragon-class Holy Warrior or an Inquisitor working above the normal rules of the faith. Obviously some exceptions would exist, not necessarily all Evil: For example, the faith of Iomedae has felt pressured enough by the Worldwound to commission Low Templar, and sounds like it may have to stoop eventually to commissioning Really Filthy Templar . . . .
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As for which currently available Base Class does the best job of "Paladin of any alignment", it seems to me that Inquisitor does this (as close as a d8 3/4 BAB Class can get) a lot more easily than the Warpriest, even if perhaps not having the absolute maximum results if you know exactly what to fiddle with in exactly the right order. Must be that when they were building the Warpriest, nobody expected the Inquisitor to come out ahead . . . .
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I love Milani and it's a perfect fit for this AP.
But My favorite remains Nocticula ... and It would be awesome.
Cheliax is a delicious bubbling nest of debauchery already, but trapped in the rigid rules of hell.
All it needs is a little push and the removal of Hell's watchdogs.
Cheliax could enjoy a new era of freedom and equal opportunity in remaining utterly and irremediably debased and perverse. It's worth trying.
I love Milani and it's a perfect fit for this AP.
But My favorite remains Nocticula ... and It would be awesome.
Cheliax is a delicious bubbling nest of debauchery already, but trapped in the rigid rules of hell.
All it needs is a little push and the removal of Hell's watchdogs.
Cheliax could enjoy a new era of freedom and equal opportunity in remaining utterly and irremediably debased and perverse. It's worth trying.
I'll grab the halfling slaves, the glabrezu, and the Cards of Humanity set!
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Improving your lot in life(preferable through treachery and cunning) is totally inline with the Asmodean faith. If those above you can't stop you from taking their power, then they don't deserve to have it. I don't see the Irori conflict you claim here.-I think I'll go for Irori, actually. Self-improvement is his main schtick and Asmodeus/House Thrune are 100% not okay with that. You're born into your life and don't you dare hope for anything better. I can see Irorans having a big problem with that. I know there's an order of Iroran archivists who try to preserve Chelish history from Thrune's editing/falsifying.
The Iroran method of self-improvement is to make yourself better, without resorting to make anyone else worse. The Asmodean method of self-improvement is to make yourself better than everybody else by any means including (preferably) making everybody else worse. Those are actually 2 different goals. (And for completeness' sake, the Iomedean method of self-improvement would be to make yourself better while enabling others to become better, although it sounds like pressures of both Cheliax and the Worldwound have put severe strain on commitment to this.)
