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Having +30 feet for 1 min/level doesn't make +10 feet for 1 hour/level not very useful, or vice versa. You can still use ER while Longstrider is up(when you really need that extra 20 feet of movement), so they are both very useful spells when used 'together' even if they don't stack.
So the crickets two spells are expeditious retreat and longstrider, which don't stack. Any way we could get one of those switched?
I feel that each has a solid strategic use, even though I knew they didn't stack. Longstrider lets you go 50 feet or more all day basically, and activate a wand if you have one (in PFS, you can get one easily, for instancE). Expeditious retreat is for a tactical precast for a few fights to put you at 70 or more. The difference of 20 feet of movement also nets you +1 to hit and damage with Treasure at the End.
EDIT: DeadPhoenix may be dead, but it seems we agree!
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It may be so. The key to making losing control a fun mechanic is to make the fact of the loss of control 100% in the control of the one losing control, as in the current mechanics. This way, it only ever happens when the player wants it to happen. I even think some GMs might let the player play the spirit and ham it up to take pressure off the GM's plate, but the fact that this is only happening due to a GM allowance makes it easier to step in if the player just has the spirit act like the usual character does and help the other PCs as normal. I actually initially had some mechanics that involved gradual penalties based on the compulsions, but some very wise people pointed out to me that those would cause table conflicts like a paladin's code does, but worse, like if there were 54 different paladin's codes and it only would take 1 disagreement out of 54 to create a conflict. This way, the player can RP the increases of 1-3 however they like. The class doesn't mind. I'm going to be sure it's balanced even if the player is shy or averse to anything that might be a drawback or what-have-you and always just plays as normal from 1 through 3. But if you do hit 4, and you'll know going in that you're going to hit 4 with that trance, then you've chosen to become an NPC for a little while. Which could totally be fun if that's what you want (maybe the spirit even made you an offer and claimed it would help out? Will it keep its word? Lots of RP potential). But yeah, agreed; there's a reason the class description even says "Because of this, few mediums are willing to incur further spiritual influence beyond 3."
I tried to explain it upthread as well, but it's just a tricky piece. I think there is a visceral response to anything that involves a loss of control that makes people stop reading.
I'm not exactly a good example to start this kind of discussion, though. The realize there have been visceral reactions but the reason I brought this up is because I saw a potential interaction in the game system that is something Pathfinder generally frowns upon:
1. Choice is complicated. It's not simply "I choose to have the GM control my character for a while!" It's "Turning my character into an NPC for a while is better than the alternative!"2. Depending on spirits for abilities creates the potential for a character to either channel, or lose access to an ability or abilities s/he is depending on and therefor expire, thus making the alternative potentially "Channel or lose my character!"
3. It is possible at fairly low levels to build up influence over time if you are depending on channeling one spirit repeatedly, and
4. I've played with a number of old-school GMs who don't believe in providing downtime, and there are certainly dungeon crawls you spend more than a day in.
With only one channel per day, you can't get above 3 influence. With two channels per day, though, you can get to 4.
Imagine this scenario:
- I want to play a build that hits things. I like good characters so I'm playing Big Sky. I can channel once or twice per day to get Big Sky's dex ability to raise my AC.
- We're on an adventure in a dungeon and I'm hovering around 3 influence per day, using my one channel on Big Sky and my second channel per day on an Int spirit for skills. Our first encounter of the day is pretty hairy and I channel some extra AC, going from 2 to 3 influence.
- We have an unexpected second encounter overnight, and I'm not wearing my medium armor. I fall to low HP and I think my last, best shot is to channel Big Sky again and hope for enough AC/Reflex to survive the encounter.
- I survive, barely, and get healed up. My character is an NPC for the last day of the dungeon. I miss out on the final battle of the dungeon and spend the remainder of the evening eating chips.
The alternative:
- We have an unexpected second encounter overnight, and I'm not wearing my medium armor. I fall to low HP and I think my last, best shot is to channel Big Sky again and hope for enough AC/Reflex to survive the encounter, but I decide I don't like losing control of my character.
- I die, and the party cannot afford to resurrect me. I miss out on the final battle and spend the remainder of the evening making a new character.
The Pathfinder team, in general, has been a big fan of maintaining player agency. I know some people that handle loss of agency well, and some that don't. I am not sure that the players who don't handle loss of agency well would understand exactly what they're getting into with a Medium, necessarily.
Would a Medium who has at least one spirit bound to them be un able to be possessed or at least resistant to it? Considering the slot is already kind of filled as it were.
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Would a Medium who has at least one spirit bound to them be un able to be possessed or at least resistant to it? Considering the slot is already kind of filled as it were.
That is...a very nifty point. Sounds like a good passive ability I could potentially add for free!
Would a Medium who has at least one spirit bound to them be un able to be possessed or at least resistant to it? Considering the slot is already kind of filled as it were.That is...a very nifty point. Sounds like a good passive ability I could potentially add for free!
Glad to be of service.
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I'd also like to point out something that is relevant for both home play and for PFS:
Forcing your players to give control over to the GM puts more work on the GM.
You're forcing the GM to now consider an NPC that hadn't existed in the module/scenario beforehand, and act accordingly, which adds more effort on the GM's part, and takes away their concentration from purely running the module.
You're also advocating a very bad potential can of worms wherein a Character - under the control of a GM - meets their death: now the player has a dead character and they literally couldn't have done anything about it because it wasn't their character to control.
And this is far, far worse than the player being killed while being controlled by a villain - at least then it's understood that a Character's death is possible because the Character has been turned into a puppet by someone who is out to kill everyone anyway.
No, this is "well, fantastic - now my Character's dead because I was doing my job and got him taken away from me for it... thanks, guys; I'm leaving now"
Now, you have an angry player and a GM who has both a character's death on their minds and the fact that the player of that character is now angry and potentially may quit.
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In some ways I can understand trying to defend a part of the Class that's been written, but let's look at the following:
1) Influence creates even more bookkeeping than before
2) Influence can easily cause a player to be inactive for the majority of the adventure
3) Influence forces the GM to take on yet another roll, instead of just concentrating on their prescribed job
4) Influence can lead to very messy situations wherein a Player is further penalized beyond just warming a seat for doing their job - such as "what is the GM supposed to do if a possessed Character dies?"
5) No other class has a penalty that comes even CLOSE to this - casters running out of spells can still attack or at least the players can DO things; Barbarians who are out of Rage and even Fatigued, again, can at least DO things while they're fatigued; etc.
6) For all of the problems above, it is a lot easier to succumb to Influence than it is to run out of Rage, Spells, or any other limited class feature
Honestly, it may be flavorful, and it may be fine for experienced groups who are aware that malicious things can happen (like my group, who all laughed when the party TPK'd before getting past Room 3 in Tomb of Horrors)... but for your average players who want to feel like they're contributing in SOME way to an adventure, who don't want to just sit there doing literally nothing with their characters while listening to everyone else, and ESPECIALLY for new players who want to play something and not have their character taken away quickly, it's bad.
Stated outright, from the standpoint of being a GAME mechanic, and stepping away from the class to examine the pros and cons of the mechanic, it's awful.
There is no real softening this - it is an awful mechanic which will make most players not want to take the class or regret taking it in the first place, and it needs to be heavily softened or, preferably, outright replaced with something FAR less damning to both players and GMs alike.
That was probably a bit harsh, but that's my honest opinion.
The basic idea of the class is neat; and while I think that the implementation of the Spirits - mostly the shear number of them plus the possibility of combinations of them - is way too much and something needs to be simplified, I do think that Junctioning spirits ala FF8 is a pretty cool idea.
However, the whole point of a class is that you want people to want to play it.
Putting in a drawback as big as "well, you hit 4, shame on you, now hand over your sheet to the GM" will either not make people want to play it initially or will put a bad taste in players' mouths after they've suffered this.
And, again, this is completely different from either other class-induced drawbacks or from enemy aggression.
If you get bitten by a Lycanthrope and contract Lycanthropy, it's annoying, but it's expected - Werewolves proliferate like, well, Werewolves.
And if your enemy is Psycho Pirate then, yes, you kinda expect and accept that your character may well turn into a Pod Person for a little bit of time.
This is a drawback that penalizes a player for doing their job too well for too long. That's not conducive to making people want to play a class - the best that will do is make them regret not taking the Cleric, which is arguably even MORE of a Swiss Army Knife class.
I'm totally cool on the idea that there would be SOME drawback to using, or over-using your spirits, but that should either just be the intrinsic fact that you no longer can use your core ability for the remainder of the day (like burning through all your spells), or have the player suffer a minor penalty that won't completely take away their ability to at least contribute SOMETHING to the party.
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Maybe if a spirit reaches Influence 4, its overwhelming hold on the Medium cuts off her connection to her other spirits for the remainder of the day?
I apologize if this idea has already been suggested.
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Personally I think the cricket should replace longstrider with jump.
I think 4 influence and possession mechanic would best work with the following caveat added after the NPC line. "GM's, at their digression, may allow medium who turn into NPCs to be still controlled by the player"
Or something...you know better written/makes more sense.
I think, if you establish that the default is "GM takes control of NPC", but then add in a line that the GM can, if willing, allow PCs to roleplay the possessed character, allows some table to table variation within RAW.
Possession, as I see it, is potentially something as contentious as alignment. Look at how many "debates" exist regarding whether or not Paladins should fall from a certain action.
Some tables may be really interested in roleplay, and characters would have a blast with their PC turning into some crazy or evil other person when possessed. Other players would just keep playing the medium the same way, and you would lose the mechanical drawbacks of influence. If A GM takes control in the first case, he risks alienating players and making them sit there bored. In the latter case, if the GM doesn't take control, influence is pointless and we spawn a 1000 threads about whether X person was acting in character.
Allowing the GM to set the rule and giving RAW support for that would be a good thing and mitigate both problems.
For table variation, I think it's totally reasonable for the player to maintain "control," but have the GM slip the player occasional prompts on expected behavior based on the compulsion. That, of course, depends on the GM not falling into the "should the paladin fall" mentality, but the upshot is that the class doesn't lose its abilities if the GM disagrees.
So, I remember seeing somewhere upthread someone expressing concern that an archetype based on randomly drawing a spirit from the harrow deck would require one to but said deck. I might suggest one could roll 1d6 for attribute and 1d10 rerolling a result of 10 for alignment, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. Past that I have seen a lot of ideas on all sides of a bout a dozen fences here, but I am confident that together we can reach a happy medium. Pun most definitely intended
Maybe the spells should be changed to spell like abilities, especially if the class is only getting 4th level casting.
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The point is that you dont have to use /care about them all. I agree however they could use simpler language/formatArchetypes are just exchanging a class feature for another. Spirits are adding more and more that will be interlocking and working in tandem with each other. It's really not comparable, except that some archetypes can work with others of the same class. But that's minor (at most I've seen three archetypes combined) compared to the 54 spirits right out of the box. And most players don't go out of their way to combine as many archetypes as they can. While that style of combining is a part of the Medium
I just want some streamlining. Options are great, but Christ, 54 class ability packages is a bit insane. Make it easier to digest with better explanations or even a table that gives a brief description, like the Feat Tables.
And my point is that you can't compare the two. Archetypes are options that you don't need. You can play the game without archetypes. the Spirits are compulsory. Spirit usage of 4 spirits is built into the class, so you're going to have to scour the 54 spirits to find four that work well with your character concept. You're essentially forced into grabbing up to four archetypes and using them for your character. It's a bit much and you only really can compare it to the cross-blooded sorcerer (and oracle version) archetypes. And even then, you choose the class abilities from the blood lines and at the end of the day, that archetype is your choice.
Options are great, but complexity without any form of streamlining is a waste.
A suggestion could be the use use of "builds" as suggestions of spirits to use. So that new players can get fast into game witouth needing to check 100 spells, i mean erm.. spirits
I think a lot of important stuff has already been covered by people more adept than myself! However, there is still a few things I'd like to post about that have already been brought up but...but I have stuff to say. I may even sorta know what I'm talking about...maybe.
1. Full BAB or not? Not sure to me that it fits thematically with the class. I suppose maybe if there were two options maybe one with more spell casting and the current bab(and hitdice) and one with the current spell casting and more bab(and hit dice). Granted that might be a whole other set of problems. I think I would vote for improved abilities casting or otherwise rather than full bab.
Also I like Dragon78's suggestion of the casting being spell like abilities. I suppose supernatural abilities would be going too far?
2. Maybe make the influence control mechanic slightly changed in that instead of under GM control maybe something like confusion? By that I mean control is constantly hovering between player and gm turn by turn based on rolls and a chart. I say it's better than missing a whole day of playing because you went too far in influence. Also maybe more of a positive effect when being controlled specific to said spirit might make being taken to that high level of influence a valid and fun tactic. ie: for The Liar, maybe when at level 4 influence you get to roll two dice and pick the highest anytime you tell a lie as you are essentially letting the spirit tell the lie. However, it might add a little beyond what you need for its own agenda...depending on what you roll on said chart. I have more on how this can work but will wait to see if there is interest.
3. Seance time I think needs to be cut down to 15 min...or less...maybe even much less at higher levels. Obviously this makes the class much more dynamic and for the player it makes his pc useful in just about any situation which I think is important.
4. Up the amount of trances per day at low levels. Charisma+1/2 level. Or instead of charisma the medium picks a favoured spirit and the associated attribute is used to calculate the trances.
5. Idea, maybe the medium can burn trances uses to do a seance much faster say 1 round?
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i have to assume the unicorn's aid another bonus doesn't work with the benevolent armor quality and the helpful halfling trait, but does it interact with things that do not alter the bonus, and instead give you other things, such as gloves of arcane striking?
is there a compelling reason to not have the aid another bonuses stack? if your only ability is that you help your teammates hit more and be hit less, why cap that at such a small amount?
as an aside, as a person who has built aid another builds, i love this ability.
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So for determining my spell list do I use my known spirits, my primary spirit, all my séance spirits, or my séance spirits PLUS tranced spirits?Reposting, 'Cuz its getting buried, and someone's gotta know.
your spells known change each day, and are determined by primary, secondary, tertiary, and quaternary. trance does not provide access to spells known.
this means at level 4 you have ~2 spells known per day, and ~4 at level 5. you go up to ~8 at level 7, and it keeps growing at a steady rate as you level up, to ~16 at level 17
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I do think that the Medium should have a core set of spells that are always available regardless of what spirit they are channelling, like protection from evil, deathwatch, speak with dead, Ghostbane Dirge, lesser planer ally or other spells that allow the class to deal with spirits, ghosts and the incorporeal.
I do think that the Medium should have a core set of spells that are always available regardless of what spirit they are channelling, like protection from evil, deathwatch, speak with dead, Ghostbane Dirge, lesser planer ally or other spells that allow the class to deal with spirits, ghosts and the incorporeal.
In other words, Spirits act as Domains that change daily, while the basic spellcasting is left intact.
I have to agree that this'd make spirit management easier.
I do think that the Medium should have a core set of spells that are always available regardless of what spirit they are channelling, like protection from evil, deathwatch, speak with dead, Ghostbane Dirge, lesser planer ally or other spells that allow the class to deal with spirits, ghosts and the incorporeal.In other words, Spirits act as Domains that change daily, while the basic spellcasting is left intact.
I have to agree that this'd make spirit management easier.
It'd also help the medium in that you could always have some generically useful spells
I wound up with absolutely 0 reason to trance what so ever. I could see that the 50% hit chance would be a huge improvement if I ever got to a situation where I couldn't really hit something with a very high AC, but that only came up once in the 2 levels I survived. (That's 2 character levels by the way, not 2 levels of the Spire). And in that one time it did come up, there was NO way I was going to leave myself vulnerable for a full round to trance.
You seemed to have missed the fact that you can trance with any spirit you have that shares an alignment or spirit bonus component with your current spirit. +10 move and ignore difficult terrain from Cricket or the exploding lantern could have been useful. Or any of the 5 other neutral spirits.
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What makes me worried about the Medium is the fact i would like to expand all my character spirits into full NPCs and interact with them. 54 spirits to choose for the class is ok, but one specific Medium make contacts with too many spirits. It like they are pokemons, after a time you don´t even give them individual names anymore.
How to interact with some many spirits and still let other players roleplay in the table ?
*Wonders if he should play a medium named Legion.*
*Wonders if he should play a medium named Legion.*
DO IT!
*Wonders if he should play a medium named Legion.*DO IT!
Oh, this shall be fairly interesting. I think it should only be fair that I have a group of pigs follow me around, for when I decide to switch out spirits.
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But if you do hit 4, and you'll know going in that you're going to hit 4 with that trance, then you've chosen to become an NPC for a little while. Which could totally be fun if that's what you want (maybe the spirit even made you an offer and claimed it would help out? Will it keep its word? Lots of RP potential). But yeah, agreed; there's a reason the class description even says "Because of this, few mediums are willing to incur further spiritual influence beyond 3."
The main issue for me, as I typically GM, is that turning a PC into an NPC, even for a short time, puts a lot on the GM's plate. I'm managing the adventure, yet I'm also playing a character I'm supposed to be playing according to it's own motivations. At the same time, the possessed character is still a part of the party, so the whole group is invested in the character's behavior. It's not really clear to me how the character is supposed to be roleplayed either. How pervasive is the behavior change? Does each spirit have a specific personality written up? Like, does the Bear act differently when it takes over an Intelligence 8 wild man than when it possesses an Int 18, Wis 14 wizard?
I find myself wondering, is possession an ability cost? Or is it just a roleplaying potential? If it's mainly a roleplaying thing, how do I deal with the fact that the possessed character's actions will affect the group? If it's supposed to be a limitation on the character, how much of a hassle should it be be when it occurs? Like, is it appropriate for The Bear to head for the woods in the middle of the night and end up hours away from the rest of the party in an unknown location?
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Would a Medium who has at least one spirit bound to them be un able to be possessed or at least resistant to it? Considering the slot is already kind of filled as it were.That is...a very nifty point. Sounds like a good passive ability I could potentially add for free!
sure, you could grant a modest passive bonus. this is also an opportunity to add a little flavorful complexity. like if a mechanic interposed itself to represent the entities 'wrestling' for control. specific-SR? second saving throw? CHA check? backfire?...
I would be pretty sad if the possession was taken out, me and my group absolutely love the idea of it. Hrrm maybe there could be a note to the side with 1-3 alternate rules people could replace it with if they find it that distasteful, or if the people who want it end up the minority maybe still have the possession as an official alternate rule?
That's one of the reasons why we don't have a finalized Spirit Specialization in this playtest. I would say SS: Strength works for the Rabbit Prince when it counts as a Strength spirit, but I'm undecided as to whether it would boost your AC and Ref saves too (clearly it would at least boost to-hit and damage and any Rabbit Prince specific abilities).So for spirits that change their attribute type, if you grab spirit specialization in their attribute does it apply to the other forms?
E.g. Rabbit Prince acts as both Dex and Str when attacking, do I take Spirit Specialization Str or Dex to get +1 to Attack and damage?
If the character had Spirit Specialization in both Dex and Str though he would gain all the bonuses though right? The boost to AC, and the boost to hit and damage?
On an unrelated note...I'm not sure I understand the point of the Wisp ability. It provokes attacks of opportunity, but why would anyone attack it? Can it do anything beside move and shed light?
All in all I'm really unimpressed with the Demon Lantern spirit. The descriptive text talks about tricks and deception, and then you get to the mechanics, and you have a bonus to slight of hand...and that's about it along those lines. Some of the spells are thematicish...but I don't see them actually functioning in game (Casting Twisted Spaces on someone at 7th level seems a little pathetic). Am I missing something here?
For the Demon Lantern spirit, if an enemy doesn't know what it is, they may see it as a way to gain an advantage, especially if they have dark vision and you don't. Alone that's not very impressive, but once you get the Lantern shield, things get interesting. A one hit blur that deals damage is nice, and then the Walker ability can be used confuse enemies, and even without the damage for them picking the wrong target, you still have the free teleport as part of the move action. And then you get four of the things at once, which will apparently auto-respawn if they get taken out.
When I first read the description, it looked like a fun ability to mess around with to me, I could absolutely see someone tricking enemies with them if used correctly.
For me the basic power, where you get the one Wisp, is incredibly situation. I see what you're saying about it might confuse some opponents, or it'll be targeted as a light source...but that strikes me as about as interesting as wet cardboard.
The later powers do get a little more interesting, but it definitely doesn't hit me as something I would love to play. Not that it HAS to...but yeah, the descriptive text gets me very interested, and then as soon as I look at the mechanics...meh.
If the Wisp provided flanking (I seem to remember creatures under a certain size don't) it would be a different matter. Or possibly some sort of distraction effect.
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There seems to be quite a few spirits missing like...
. one or several stealth spirits ... please have this... the ability to make a party more stealthy or at least be able to quiet the walking tanks would be nice.
. possibly something that adds precision damage could be a murderer whose compulsion is to make you want to kill everything
. several types of healing spirits
( positive energy channeler & one that removes or suppresses conditions)
. a basic blaster type
. a de-buffer maybe witch-like
. ice & cold based
.aquatic based
.flight based
.something daemonic/ diabolic/ angelic / demonic/ kyton-ic?
. something undead ... compulsion being you want to taste the blood of ur enemies
. something sight/perception based
. some sort of maneuver master (grappler or disarmer)
i really think there should be 3 -4 or more different variations on fighting spirits... at low level I really don't think it is possible to be that effective and not have "the bear".
some thoughts... maybe a Shillelagh, flame blade type that creates weapons out of magic
a ranged attacker..
I'm not sure these are in the cards not appearing in this playtest.
I think more variation in the abilities would be good for the class.
With what's available for the playtest, i think it kinda fails
Hopefully they are ...
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That's one of the reasons why we don't have a finalized Spirit Specialization in this playtest. I would say SS: Strength works for the Rabbit Prince when it counts as a Strength spirit, but I'm undecided as to whether it would boost your AC and Ref saves too (clearly it would at least boost to-hit and damage and any Rabbit Prince specific abilities).So for spirits that change their attribute type, if you grab spirit specialization in their attribute does it apply to the other forms?
E.g. Rabbit Prince acts as both Dex and Str when attacking, do I take Spirit Specialization Str or Dex to get +1 to Attack and damage?
If the character had Spirit Specialization in both Dex and Str though he would gain all the bonuses though right? The boost to AC, and the boost to hit and damage?
On an unrelated note...I'm not sure I understand the point of the Wisp ability. It provokes attacks of opportunity, but why would anyone attack it? Can it do anything beside move and shed light?
All in all I'm really unimpressed with the Demon Lantern spirit. The descriptive text talks about tricks and deception, and then you get to the mechanics, and you have a bonus to slight of hand...and that's about it along those lines. Some of the spells are thematicish...but I don't see them actually functioning in game (Casting Twisted Spaces on someone at 7th level seems a little pathetic). Am I missing something here?
lantern gives you sleight of hand, which isn't a class skill and is not usable untrained. your seance boon then gives everyone a bonus to a skill that cant be used untrained, which is weird. as for the wisp, i think the idea is that dumb creatures will attack it as it provokes attacks from them? it is a power that kind of forces the gm to play dumb with, allowing you to use your class abilities to something. if the wisp did something else, like give a penalty to ac for lighting someone up, or acting as faerie fire in its square i could see it being usable.
a lot of the abilities are pretty useless at low level, and get cooler as you get into the higher tiers. i assume this is to discourage multiclassing, but as is it seems to shoehorn players into playing strength spirits at low level just to be useful.
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Got to thinking, and will keep away from the possession issue now, people much more clear and fluent than me have made good arguments against the losing control issue.
I'd prefer if the class didn't turn into a 6 level caster class for several reasons. For one, it doesn't really add to the class flavour, your spirits would turn more into domains that are taken for spells considering your spell list is entirely dependent on them. Secondly, still for flavour, the spells are still the same spells used by every other class, so it doesn't really add anything really different to the table, and would just be contesting bard in the role of jack of all trades, but with more eclectic selection of spells, with less stable theme.
But I'd advice against 6 level casting also for the reason of variety. Currently the psychic book has half of it's classes already be six level casters, with one without casting and one with full casting. I think we have plenty on that front already in terms of psychic casters.
I'd almost go as far as to suggest the opposite direction to upping the spellcasting, namely cutting it out entirely. The theme of medium is spirits, channeling spirits and getting power from them. So perhaps expanding on the spirits, making them little more robust and able to give more options. Dropping the spell list from them could also allow for maybe one or even two more interesting options to be added in their place, like the X uses a day abilities or just additional power. Whether cutting casting down should come with D10 HD and +1 BaB, I don't know, I'd personally see it interesting to have spirit channeling combat class, but it's not necessity.
As it stands, by the time you get them, there are some spells that are really underwhelming on the 4 level casting, and 6 level would just make medium more akin to it's brethren in the book.
Figured I might as well suggest this, since the mediums older brother, the binder, was without casting levels of any sort. I have no idea how well this is going to be received, but brought it up anyway.
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So, had a little bit of a playtest in PFS last night, during Masters of the Fallen Fortress (a quick little module I've played 3 times now.) We had 2 Kineticists (Air and Geo), a Bloodrager, Seelah the iconic Paladin, an Occultist and my Medium, Mordecai. Mordecai used the Rabbit Prince spirit, with a scythe and a crossbow as his main weapons. His one other spirit was the Bear, the theory being I could trance before one of the dangerous fights to be able to get a second attack.
We skipped the first major encounter of the session (3 dogs) with a well-thought out plan of "Hey, you have some sausages in your bag, right? Let's throw them!" Our GM was amused enough to have that work just fine and we climbed up a pile of rubble to enter the fortress. Next event, a spider attacked us from the darkness, and we all swarmed around a doorway trying to hit it (I was not the lucky one to splat it with my natural 3, unfortunately.) Many perception checks were rolled, making me glad Mediums have it as a class skill and we eventually progressed to the next floor.
We were ambushed by a group of troglodytes on the other side of a door, forcing us into another jam there. Luckily, I had insisted on being first and was able to attack and tank (with my very respectable 19 AC thanks to 18 Dex and the Rabbit Prince.) My damage was perhaps more consistent than the other party members here, thanks to Rabbit Prince acting as a Str spirit, giving me pseudo-full BAB along with my heavy Dex investment.
The same ambush scenario with the same results happened on the next floor up, followed by an assault on a poor, adorable Shocker Lizard (in the name of loot!) that never stood a chance of doing damage thanks to my AC and elec resistance (this was a level 1 Aasimar I had played 1 session with prior to the cutoff date.)
The next floor was a little tricky, involving us fighting a pair of burning skeletons. I hadn't thought to bring a bludgeoning weapon, so I used my trance to forge some claws... Only to have my allies defeat them before that came necessary. I don't regret using my one use of trance here, as it could have been messy if my 2 kineticist allies hadn't been able to hit, but I still felt like I lost a large part of my class from that point on (at least I had a SLA from my race...) After that, we faced the leader of the troglodytes who missed me with his one action before Seelah cleaved him in two. Rescuing our objective there, we continued to the final floor
At the top, we fought the Troglodyte chief and his pet crocodile. We charged at him, only to discover the top of the fortress was collapsing, sending the enemies, Seelah and myself all several stories down (after 6 failed Reflex saves). The bad guys died, while Seelah and myself made our checks to stabilize. And with that, the scenario was completed.
First things first, this character was a blast to RP. It was so fun having him struggle between his demure self and the Don Quixote-like spirit he contacts. When he tranced the bear (for the minute it mattered he had a third influence to contend with, shifting between animalistic rage, an adventurous fool and a poor average joe trying not to make a scene.
Unfortunately, while he was unique to play in an RP-way, he was anything but mechanically. At no point during the scenario did I feel like I was playing anything more than what really amounted to any given full BAB class with a Dex focus. Most of my success was from good die rolls in my favor and bad ones for the enemies. The exception to rolls being Fortitude saves due to the Troglodytes' stench. We had to roll a lot of those, and I failed about 50%. When I had to make several Reflex saves near the end (2 natural 2's, and 2 natural 7's, followed by a 15) it really made me wish I had a second good save. On a positive note, I got to use all the skills I invested in at level 1 and I feel the class skill list is really solid for many skill paths.
As I said before, I felt like I was making a mistake when I used Trance before the skeleton fight ended, but that's really something that comes with only having one use of an ability a day and remains my major complaint about Medium. I felt like a pretty boring combatant after that and while I wouldn't say I didn't have fun playing my character (it most certainly was) I will say the combats were the least interesting part.
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One other thought,
... you kind of still have to specialize into one or two types of spirits when you assign your stats. This is counter to the design for this class as I understand it, which is for it to be able to be a back-up to almost any role.
as it is now..
I'm going strength/ charisma & con, in that order and maybe I put some points into intelligence if I want to use the knowledge spirits..
because I would like to do some damage at lvs 1-4.
so I have to drop the dex & con & int spirits if they are doing something that is based on a dice roll/ skill check / maneuver check be cause the stat bonus is not there.
The other option is to crack out my charisma & just resign myself to the fact that I don't get spells until 4th & i'm going to be "bear" with a low strength.
When I think of a medium, I think of a fortune teller or some guy in Victorian-style clothing. Schwarzenegger is not someone that comes to mind.
I think this is a problem.
I don't think it would be too outrageous to have a power that let you substitute the Medium's charisma score or (charisma score -2) for either their dex, st, int or con based on the primary spirit's type. As long as it applied only when using the Medium's powers.
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One other thought,
... you kind of still have to specialize into one or two types of spirits when you assign your stats. This is counter to the design for this class as I understand it, which is for it to be able to be a back-up to almost any role.as it is now..
I'm going strength/ charisma & con, in that order and maybe I put some points into intelligence if I want to use the knowledge spirits..
because I would like to do some damage at lvs 1-4.so I have to drop the dex & con & int spirits if they are doing something that is based on a dice roll/ skill check / maneuver check be cause the stat bonus is not there.
The other option is to crack out my charisma & just resign myself to the fact that I don't get spells until 4th & i'm going to be "bear" with a low strength.
When I think of a medium, I think of a fortune teller or some guy in Victorian-style clothing. Schwarzenegger is not someone that comes to mind.
I think this is a problem.I don't think it would be too outrageous to have a power that let you substitute the Medium's charisma score or (charisma score -2) for either their dex, st, int or con based on the primary spirit's type. As long as it applied only when using the Medium's powers.
the prollem with using cha as other stats is that it lets you dump the other stat with no drawback. even at cha -2 you would be getting an effective +21 points to your point buy. ( race with +2 cha, and dumping str, normally str gets you +4 points, and an 18 str would cost you 17 points).
But if you do hit 4, and you'll know going in that you're going to hit 4 with that trance, then you've chosen to become an NPC for a little while. Which could totally be fun if that's what you want (maybe the spirit even made you an offer and claimed it would help out? Will it keep its word? Lots of RP potential). But yeah, agreed; there's a reason the class description even says "Because of this, few mediums are willing to incur further spiritual influence beyond 3."The main issue for me, as I typically GM, is that turning a PC into an NPC, even for a short time, puts a lot on the GM's plate. I'm managing the adventure, yet I'm also playing a character I'm supposed to be playing according to it's own motivations. At the same time, the possessed character is still a part of the party, so the whole group is invested in the character's behavior. It's not really clear to me how the character is supposed to be roleplayed either. How pervasive is the behavior change? Does each spirit have a specific personality written up? Like, does the Bear act differently when it takes over an Intelligence 8 wild man than when it possesses an Int 18, Wis 14 wizard?
I find myself wondering, is possession an ability cost? Or is it just a roleplaying potential? If it's mainly a roleplaying thing, how do I deal with the fact that the possessed character's actions will affect the group? If it's supposed to be a limitation on the character, how much of a hassle should it be be when it occurs? Like, is it appropriate for The Bear to head for the woods in the middle of the night and end up hours away from the rest of the party in an unknown location?
RJGrady, you ask an excellent and insightful question. The answer is--it's basically a hard cap, but with a more interesting RP reason for not going to 4 rather than just "You can only go to 3, then you aren't allowed to trance that spirit again until it goes down below 3". If there was going to be a change, that would be the change. It is fully intended that when you push yourself up to 4, the spirit takes over, and indeed the bear probably runs off into the woods for the night (if enemies try to prevent it from doing so, it may wind up fighting them unintentionally, similarly to if you released a wild animal into the dungeon that was trying to exit it). But except with a few spirits that tempt you to accept that last influence, you rarely get an advantage for accepting the 4th influence. You get the influence for entering the trance, not leaving it, so if you're standing at 3 influence and you trance that spirit, that's it. You're out of control just as the benefit applies, not after the fight (which is why it's most similar to a hard cap at 3). There's just no reason to accept the 4th influence unless the player is interested in the RP of the spirit taking over. And, with the exception of tempting spirits like the Rakshasa, players who don't do that aren't missing out on anything mechanically advantageous by not doing it.
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OK. Coming up with a number N seemed less exciting than randomly rolling each time I saw a playtest. After rolling for each playtest, Hangman Henry's playtest wound up unlocking a new medium spirit!
First, some points to note:
1) Obviously this isn't legal in PFS
2) This is in a rough format, so it's missing sections of flavor and the wording is very preliminary. Virtually no one has read this except me (and now you guys). It also might not look anything like the final spirit for that reason.
3) In the final version of the book, as mentioned in the sidebar "Alignments in the Playtest", you will be looking for exact alignment matches. That means that if you add any of these new unlocked spirits, you may want to consider removing another spirit from your playtest as well (in this case, the Beating).
Since the playtest that revealed the new spirit focused on Demon's Lantern, which is CE, and the majority of playtests so far were of Str and Dex spirits (including the Rabbit Prince who can hybrid between the two), I decided to reveal the CE Str spirit, which can count as Dex sometimes. So behold, in its unformatted glory!
4th—control winds (increase strength only)
Séance Boon: +2 to CMB for bull rush and trip
Spirit Powers:
Lesser: Whirling Cleave—Whenever you hit with a melee attack, all foes within your reach with AC equal to or lower than your attack roll take an amount of damage equal to the Cyclone’s spirit bonus of the same type as the weapon you used for the attack. In the case of whirlwind attack or any other abilities that allow extra attacks due to outside factors like how many creatures are in your reach, whirling cleave only triggers once for the entire whirlwind attack or similar ability.
Intermediate: Disaster—When using whirling cleave, you can deal twice your whirling cleave damage to any number of unattended objects in reach. In place of damaging a creature with whirling cleave, you can instead deal twice your whirling cleave damage to that creature’s weapon, armor, or shield.
Greater: Whirlwind—You gain whirlwind attack as a bonus feat, and your whirlwind attack counts as an area effect for the purpose of damaging swarms. Whenever you perform a whirlwind attack, the Cyclone counts as a Dexterity spirit in addition to a Strength spirit. This may cause other spirits to grant you their spirit powers instead of their spirit bonus.
Supreme: Cyclone Attack—When performing a whirlwind attack, you can also move up to your speed, even through enemies’ squares without rolling an Acrobatics check (this movement still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal). You can make an attack against every creature you threaten at any point of your movement.
Run more medium playtests for more chances to reveal preliminary notes on another spirit!