From everything I've seen and tested, the Medium is in SERIOUS need of a d10 HD and full BAB.
Ranger, Paladin, and Bloodrager are all solid because they are primarily physical with a little magic backing them up.
The Warpriest, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Hunter, Summoner, and all other half-casters are solid because while they're not as tough or accurate as the Ranger, Paladin, and Bloodrager, they have a good selection of spells to make them Jacks of All Trades.
The Medium is neither. He's a squishy pseudo-caster; he got the worst of both worlds and I'd never want to play him because of that. It's not really on the level of an NPC class, but I'd rather take full levels of Fighter.
Giving him full BAB and the accompanying d10 HD would just end up making him as powerful as the other 3 pseudo-casters. Not MORE powerful; just "as-powerful" which is where you want it to be.
I like the flavor of the class, but I completely agree with your assessment about mid-BAB being inappropriate at first blush. I'm going to play the class because of a specific character concept that lends itself to the class more than any existing classes, but the Medium currently looks to violate a number of existing design principles when it comes to BAB/HD.
I like the flavor of the class, but I completely agree with your assessment about mid-BAB being inappropriate at first blush. I'm going to play the class because of a specific character concept that lends itself to the class more than any existing classes, but the Medium currently looks to violate a number of existing design principles when it comes to BAB/HD.From everything I've seen and tested, the Medium is in SERIOUS need of a d10 HD and full BAB.
Ranger, Paladin, and Bloodrager are all solid because they are primarily physical with a little magic backing them up.
The Warpriest, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Hunter, Summoner, and all other half-casters are solid because while they're not as tough or accurate as the Ranger, Paladin, and Bloodrager, they have a good selection of spells to make them Jacks of All Trades.
The Medium is neither. He's a squishy pseudo-caster; he got the worst of both worlds and I'd never want to play him because of that. It's not really on the level of an NPC class, but I'd rather take full levels of Fighter.
Giving him full BAB and the accompanying d10 HD would just end up making him as powerful as the other 3 pseudo-casters. Not MORE powerful; just "as-powerful" which is where you want it to be.
Thanks for your feedback. Be sure to let me know how it goes when you try it out! My firsthand observed playtest data so far indicates that a medium who likes her Strength (that is, has the same Strength score as the brawler) can keep up extremely favorably with a brawler in the frontline so far.
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First of all i have to say i love this class! It really takes me to remember Shaman King
I also believe this class really needs a semi full bab or full bab. This class seems to aim to be the "fighter" class of psionics but it seems to have a really hard day with no full bab an really poor profiencies. Maybe give it full bab when in trance? or give it an option or achetype which gets a "full bab trance". I really like the picture of channeling spirits of great warriors such as Musashi or Atilla. I dont really see those as half bab tought.
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First of all i have to say i love this class! It really takes me to remember Shaman King
I also believe this class really needs a semi full bab or full bab. This class seems to aim to be the "fighter" class of psionics but it seems to have a really hard day with no full bab an really poor profiencies. Maybe give it full bab when in trance? or give it an option or achetype which gets a "full bab trance". I really like the picture of channeling spirits of great warriors such as Musashi or Atilla. I dont really see those as half bab tought.
Hmm, that's an interesting idea...I will definitely add trancing giving an extra bennie based on spirit type (like Strength giving pseudo full BAB, and the others each giving something else) to the list of possibilities to consider. Tethys didn't need it to be awesome, but once we have playtest feedback, if I need to scale up the ability to "get serious" a few times per day, that kind of thing sounds like a great way to go about it.
I like the idea of this one being a fighter HD/BA class.
Mark, quick question on The Bear:
Massive (Intermediate, Su): Your size increases by one
size category. You gain the benefits and drawbacks of enlarge
person. For a Medium medium, this increases claw damage
to 1d8.
This ability has really odd wording. As I read it, I'm convinced RAI that it should not stack with a casting of Enlarge Person, but it's not clear RAW. Could you please confirm?
It says your size increases. Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, ever.
Questions:
When you channel a secondary spirit via trance, do you get access to it's spell list for the purposes of spell trigger abilities (wands)?
Btw, do you get the spell trigger access pre-4th level? I think this is what's being said under spells, but I want to make sure.
Does a trance provoke Attacks of Opportunity?
Does the Medium benefit from a seance boon?
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full bab and more proficiencies doesn't help the lack of real options (in combat and otherwise) from level 1-6
out of the options available we have :
full round: trance (standard action at 6th)
standard action: very limited spells starting at 4 (some might be longer or shorter, but this is the usual action), create wisp (demon's lantern), dancing lights (demon's lantern)
move action: move wisp (demon's lantern)
swift action: become confused (the lost), increase dc of a charm or compulsion and possibly lose your character if it works (rakshasa)
immediate action: change attack rolls to 50% for you or adjacent enemies (rabbit)
so at 6th level we have two standard actions to choose from that are different from what an expert can do. we have 4 spirits that give us additional choices, but 2 of those are choices that are not reasonable at all (confused as a swift action? why?). the closest class to this core is fighter, who gets feats every other level and full bab and other various boosts.
this is what i mean about the class lacking choices of what it can do. sure, it has a lot of small boosts to various skills, but since you only have one or two boosts per day and it takes you an hour to change them, your boosts are unlikely to come up unless they are combat. and the combat boosts are just a flat damage boost and a choice between claws + enlarge and fists + flanking bonus.
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I'm worried about its saves... As with all Cha-based classes, having only Will as a good save comes dangerously close to having no good save, since Cha doesn't boost Will and can't be used as a dump stat.
They playtest document doesn't say what their weapon proficiencies are. Martial and simple, I assume?
I'm worried about its saves... As with all Cha-based classes, having only Will as a good save comes dangerously close to having no good save, since Cha doesn't boost Will and can't be used as a dump stat.
As it works out, your spirit bonuses can help a lot in that regard. For instance, a level 9 medium with Big Sky/Cricket has the same Reflex saving throw bonus as if she had a strong Reflex save. That said, as always, I'm open to considering other options. I would say that Fort is the more likely to add than Ref, for the reasons mentioned by rainzax upthread
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They playtest document doesn't say what their weapon proficiencies are. Martial and simple, I assume?
Should be simple. Though one of the unreleased Strength spirits can give you not only all martials but eventually all exotics as well.
I'm worried about its saves... As with all Cha-based classes, having only Will as a good save comes dangerously close to having no good save, since Cha doesn't boost Will and can't be used as a dump stat.As it works out, your spirit bonuses can help a lot in that regard. For instance, a level 9 medium with Big Sky/Cricket has the same Reflex saving throw bonus as if she had a strong Reflex save. That said, as always, I'm open to considering other options. I would say that Fort is the more likely to add than Ref, for the reasons mentioned by rainzax upthread
A good Fort could solve the problem, as that would save up resources for the character to invest in their Will save.
(And a feat allowing the character to replace Wisdom with Cha for Will saves would be greatly appreciated... But I think the ACG made that impossible by introducing 3~4 overly situational ways of adding Cha to Will... -.-')
I'm worried about its saves... As with all Cha-based classes, having only Will as a good save comes dangerously close to having no good save, since Cha doesn't boost Will and can't be used as a dump stat.As it works out, your spirit bonuses can help a lot in that regard. For instance, a level 9 medium with Big Sky/Cricket has the same Reflex saving throw bonus as if she had a strong Reflex save. That said, as always, I'm open to considering other options. I would say that Fort is the more likely to add than Ref, for the reasons mentioned by rainzax upthreadA good Fort could solve the problem, as that would save up resources for the character to invest in their Will save.
(And a feat allowing the character to replace Wisdom with Cha for Will saves would be greatly appreciated... But I think the ACG made that impossible by introducing 3~4 overly situational ways of adding Cha to Will... -.-')
+1. It kind of fits thematically, I think. Being possessed by spirits should toughen you up to corporal threats, don't ya think?
Since this is an awfully combat-focused class, I think full BAB is called for. Trade the Seance boon for it; these strike me as awfully circumstantial. I don't think this breaks the class; an Oracle has 3/4 BAB but access to all cleric spells at first level. And I can't think of another class with Paladin/Ranger spell progression that doesn't have full BAB.
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I honestly didn't realize Trance had a limit on uses/day (it doesn't mention it in the ability description, only on the table) and it really feels like it shouldn't. The Occultist has so little variety at the early levels that invoking trance is one of the few decisions you get to make after your seance.
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Still working through this, but so far I'm intrigued. While the influence mechanic might be tricky to keep track of (with all the spirits available to channel), I really like the idea.
If I were GMing, I'd let my players keep control when possessed, but either way, I think it's kind of a cool concept, and certainly in keeping with the source material.
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I'm not liking dual vessel at 5th level. A powerful medium should powerfully invoke one spirit, blending the distinction between control and essence. To me, it seems like dual vessel should be a feat-based option or maybe an archetype ability. I know loa possessions are one entity at a time, and I've been to Asatru (Norse heathen) rituals that similarly have the participants take on a specific spiritual persona. I can't think of specific examples right now, but it seems to me that it's usually the case in fiction, as well.
What would be cool? Maybe some 1/day "possession nova" thing where you can be possessed by lots of spirits and you glow blue or something. Probably a high level power.
It seems odd that Charisma spirits don't grant a spirit bonus (although it doesn't really seem like there is something that isn't already covered by other abilities- maybe a deflection bonus to AC?), but The Liar and The Twin do have some really interesting spirit powers that just might sort of level that playing field against other spirits. I'm not sure about The Unicorn, but even as I say that, I can see where it might make for a really interesting pairing with some concepts.
Overall, though, I absolutely love the flavor and theme of this class. I think it would take a more skillful player to be able to utilize it really well- or at least a few game sessions to really figure out- it just has so much possibility in so many ways, not the least of which is from a roleplaying point of view. And if there are going to be all 54 spirits in the OA book? Wow.
Only through the Kineticist and Medium so far, and I'm really enjoying reading about all of these.
I'm going to follow the train of folks saying that the Medium needs a little more umph, especially at low levels-boost the power of Lesser abilities to give them something to do in combat, make them full BAB, give them 2/3 casting, one of those three.
As it is, at levels 1-3, the only real option you have is to bind the Bear for its two natural attacks-and with your 3/4 BAB, you're still going to be missing a lot. Things get a little easier when you finally have a spell for the day, but only for one combat a day. (Alternatively, if there's a Rogue in your party, The Beating is a solid option to use Trance on. Low level HP keeps you from using the Beating's seance option very well, but it becomes more relevant as you get extra attacks.)
At higher levels, you'll be a rockstar for sure-but the climb from 1st level to 7th is going to be a painful one.
On another nitpick:the Liar's 19th level ability is really lacking. A dual-low-save death effect? Even as an immediate action, it's not worth it. Anything that would be worth affecting with it is going to make the save. Most things that would fail the save, you could probably kill with a standard attack action. At least make it scale like most other class-granted death attacks, and make it a single save.
Here's a suggestion: more Spirit bonus. Either add one to it or scale it off of Charisma somehow. Or maybe have some kind of temporary effect where you get to add your Charisma bonus to it.
Still wanting to know if a trance provokes.
Trance is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities don't provoke unless otherwise noted in the specific ability.
Trance is a supernatural ability. Supernatural abilities don't provoke unless otherwise noted in the specific ability.
A medium can enter a trance state, beseeching
an additional spirit for aid or becoming more in tune with
his channeled spirit, in exchange for granting the spirit
increased influence over him. Entering a trance requires
1 full round of concentration. At the end of that round, the
medium can choose to channel one of his known spirits
that matches the alignment or ability score of one of his
channeled spirits and gain its lesser power. Alternatively,
he can select a spirit he is currently channeling and gain
that channeled spirit’s weakest spirit power that he does
not currently possess. Either way, the effect lasts 1 minute.
Any ongoing benefits from a gained power also end after
the minute is up. A medium cannot enter a trance when he
is already in a trance. Entering a trance increases the chosen
spirit’s influence upon the medium by 1 step.
I see an effective casting time, an effect, a limitation, and a duration. Where do you see Supernatural Ability?
If it's somewhere else in the class, then it should be here first.
Joey, what's the type in parenthesis by Trance? Should be (SP) (SU) or (EX). (If it's not there at all, that's a typo, and the confusion much more understandable.) I'm AFB at the moment so I can't look myself.
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Joey, what's the type in parenthesis by Trance? Should be (SP) (SU) or (EX). (If it's not there at all, that's a typo, and the confusion much more understandable.) I'm AFB at the moment so I can't look myself.
.... oh.
(I just learned a thing.)
To be fair, whether or not something provokes a standard action is usually bluntly stated in the text for most Supernatural abilities. At a glance, this includes the CRB listings for both Channel and Wild Shape.
I'm probably being dense...
The medium's spellcasting kicks in at 4th level, but I can't see any text confirming if their caster level is equal to their class level, or their class level -3.
Is there any reason there are no law and chaos spirits?
Read the beginning paragraph of the section on spirits. It explains that only a bare minimum have been provided for the playtest. There are 54 spirits in the full array, each of which will have two alignment components, like any other creature in the game. So all the spirits currently in the playtest will gain their L/N/C as well as having more spirits filling in the gaps in the full version.
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There's a lot of linguistic fun going on here... and I'd wish there was a way to remove the use of tertiary and quaternary from the descriptions.
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Are the spirit bonuses typed?
Does the AC bonus from dexterity spirits add to CMD? Does it apply when flat footed?
Currently working on Drek the Destroyer just to get a feel for a melee focused medium.
If I am reading the trance ability correctly, he can spend a move action to gain the Enormous ability, becoming huge sized.
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Read the beginning paragraph of the section on spirits. It explains that only a bare minimum have been provided for the playtest. There are 54 spirits in the full array, each of which will have two alignment components, like any other creature in the game. So all the spirits currently in the playtest will gain their L/N/C as well as having more spirits filling in the gaps in the full version.
Seems like this is on its way to being the grandaddy of text-heavy classes. It already taking up eleven pages. A wizard only takes six pages to give you a basic rundown on eight and a half magical schools, plus familiars. Heck, a cleric only takes up ten pages and gives you a selection of thirty-three domains, which double dips with Druids.
Reading 54 spirit entries sounds like homework. Ya gotta do something to make this class easier to swallow.
Are the spirit bonuses typed?
Does the AC bonus from dexterity spirits add to CMD? Does it apply when flat footed?
Currently working on Drek the Destroyer just to get a feel for a melee focused medium.
Took a peek at your build. Arcane Strike won't work.
You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.
Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Psychic spellcasters aren’t affected by effects that target only arcane
or divine spellcasters, nor can they use arcane or divine
scrolls or other items or feats that say they can be utilized
by only arcane or divine spellcasters.
Beginning at 4th level, a medium gains the ability
to cast a small number of psychic spells.
Emphasis mine.
I noticed that some of the spirit powers give bonus feats (such as Weapon Finesse for the Rabbit Prince). But since you can change the spirit you channel each day, they're not permanent, so it seems you couldn't use those feats as prerequisites. Is that correct? Because that would be kind of a bummer if you had to take a feat that you were getting as a bonus feat most of the time anyway.
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It took me a couple reads to correctly parse this line:
"A medium under at least 3 influence from a spirit[...]"
I totally understand the implied context (being under an influence) but I'm not sure "under" is a great synonym of "has" or "with" when using a number-based classification system, given that it could be (mis)interpreted. It could be particularly difficult for a non-native speaker to understand.
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This is definately one of the more interesting classes coming out for me, though I'll need to take a more detailed look before I start giving real impressions. However, I noticed in the Spirit (Su) paragraph that you start with a number of spirits equal to your Cha modifier. Should that have a minimum (0 or 1 presumably) line stuck in there? Playing a dwarf with a 5 charisma and -3 spirits would be interesting. :)
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Another note on wording--I think the "Dual Vessel" ability and its successors make this clear, but it's not obvious from the text of the Spells ability (nor the Spirits ability) that you need to channel a spirit in order to gain access to its spells.
"Unlike most spellcasting classes, the medium class has no spell list. Instead, each spirit adds spells to the medium’s spell list and his spells known, as indicated in the spirit’s entry."
could totally be referring to knowing how to contact a spirit without the context provided in the various Vessels.
You are correct, I will have to make an adjustment to gain Arcane Strike.
It can be picked up by using traits to qualify. I may also drop the weapon and go strictly natural attacks using a tiefling, which would qualify for arcane strike.
Uhhhh... why is that?
You are correct, I will have to make an adjustment to gain Arcane Strike.
It can be picked up by using traits to qualify. I may also drop the weapon and go strictly natural attacks using a tiefling, which would qualify for arcane strike.
If you're thinking that the Darkness SLA will qualify, try again.
Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
Emphasis mine.
Having an SLA is not the same being able to cast arcane spells.
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I revamped Drek the Destroyer. Looking at the numbers, he's going to be dealing about half the damage of a 2-handed fighter or barbarian. I had originally set Drek up to use a two-handed weapon, but the average damage was even worse.
I could easily bring him up to be much closer to barbarian DPR; dip barbarian or blood rager. Sad that this is so frequently the solution to improving a classes melee ability.
Uhhhh... why is that?You are correct, I will have to make an adjustment to gain Arcane Strike.
It can be picked up by using traits to qualify. I may also drop the weapon and go strictly natural attacks using a tiefling, which would qualify for arcane strike.
It's been clarified in an FAQ that an SLA counts as a spell for the purpose of prerequisites.
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Thanks for your feedback. Be sure to let me know how it goes when you try it out! My firsthand observed playtest data so far indicates that a medium who likes her Strength (that is, has the same Strength score as the brawler) can keep up extremely favorably with a brawler in the frontline so far.I like the flavor of the class, but I completely agree with your assessment about mid-BAB being inappropriate at first blush. I'm going to play the class because of a specific character concept that lends itself to the class more than any existing classes, but the Medium currently looks to violate a number of existing design principles when it comes to BAB/HD.From everything I've seen and tested, the Medium is in SERIOUS need of a d10 HD and full BAB.
Ranger, Paladin, and Bloodrager are all solid because they are primarily physical with a little magic backing them up.
The Warpriest, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Hunter, Summoner, and all other half-casters are solid because while they're not as tough or accurate as the Ranger, Paladin, and Bloodrager, they have a good selection of spells to make them Jacks of All Trades.
The Medium is neither. He's a squishy pseudo-caster; he got the worst of both worlds and I'd never want to play him because of that. It's not really on the level of an NPC class, but I'd rather take full levels of Fighter.
Giving him full BAB and the accompanying d10 HD would just end up making him as powerful as the other 3 pseudo-casters. Not MORE powerful; just "as-powerful" which is where you want it to be.
I agree with Serisien and CHB, this looks like a combat (melee?) class. It projects as though it will keep up with the d10/full BAB classes at low levels thanks to the spirit bonus, but at higher levels the mid BAB progression would keep it from taking a number of combat feats and missing an iterative attack would start harming expected damage output some. It looks like channeling spirits can bring its expected to-hit up to be more in-line with a full BAB class, but the other full-BAB, 4-level spellcasting classes have additional abilities--a barbarian's rage (and d12 hp), a fighter or a ranger's bonus feats, a paladin's smite evil/lay on hands/channel/mount/bonded weapon, etc.
The spirit abilities help with that a little bit, but they don't seem to be as useful or as powerful as the class abilities of competing combat classes.
I don't know if d10 hit dice are quite as necessary as full BAB, but if you plan on melee it would certainly be nice.
There is a fair amount of flexibility in the class although it does seem to reward you for building a character that is primarily compatible with one type of spirit. An intelligence-heavy medium (especially with a one-level dip in bard?) might make a good skill monkey, although the class's skill points are a smidgen low for that. Hmmm...
I like the flavor of shared seance, although I find myself wishing it gained some power with level. For what it's worth, it seems implied but not explicit that a medium who channels multiple spirits in his/her seance grants the party the seance bonuses for all channeled spirits?
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So the sidebar says that this is only 18 of the 54 possible spirits that will be available. I'm a little worried that the direction of this class will end up with a huge number of options that make it nearly impossible for most players to have any level of system mastery with it. Granted, there are a lot of different sorcerer bloodlines, but I don't think there are close to 54 of them, and even if there are, they were released gradually.
Looking at and parsing 18 different spirits is enough to make my head swim a bit, so I can barely imagine 54.
It's been clarified in an FAQ that an SLA counts as a spell for the purpose of prerequisites.Uhhhh... why is that?You are correct, I will have to make an adjustment to gain Arcane Strike.
It can be picked up by using traits to qualify. I may also drop the weapon and go strictly natural attacks using a tiefling, which would qualify for arcane strike.
Huh. That's a new one. Looks like my Sorcerer/Rogue Drow should have made it to Arcane Trickster back on 2011 after all.