Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter do not stack. This has been discussed thoroughly in the forums.
You are correct in that it has been discussed to death on the forums. However, the consensus is that they do indeed stack (and there's no convincing argument against them stacking).
I stand corrected they do in fact stack (Magical Lineage+ Spellhunter).
Many of us older players left D&D 3.5e because of the mass stacking of things just like this. You could do exact the same thing in 3.5.
Pathfinder fixed many of the problems like Polymorph and the Druid's Animal Companion.
This creates a conundrum of sorts. Not including it in the equation makes the Kineticist weaker than other classes. Include it and there will be cries of a broken class, unstable rules because of splatbook bloat.
Forum discussions have caught the eye of Erik Mona, promising of corrections towards a more balanced ruleset.
Maybe Mark and the rest of the designers are pushing for a 'balanced ruleset.' And that's why the Kineticist class is the way it is.
Interesting question to ask him when he gets back.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
DrakeRoberts, the missing word has been added as an official update. Thank you very much!
You're very welcome. It took me a while to read this through, but I'm really excited about it.
A note to point out to the "burn is harsh" people (and it may be, we'll need to see), are the infusion specializations, and of course the move action blast-charging. That means for your favorite form/substance blast at level 5 you can ignore up to 2 burn. Since the Level 4 (read minimum level 6 kineticist) infusions (need to change that word!) generally cost 2 burn, you can add one for free. By level 16 (when you can get the level 9 infusions), you have had 4 specializations.
Yes. I carefully worked on that math to make sure you can always be doing something amazing and cool without spending burn (and you can do something big, but it'll cost ya). And very few of the general talents cost burn except for extra effects, like extending them. Here's a neat trick from our playtest hydrokineticist: Consider using slick a lot and only paying the burn when it sticks. Like when you get a foe to drop an important weapon or trip several enemies successfully.
I apologize if this has been answered already, but 30 pages is a lot to sift through at the moment. If I'm reading this correctly you can decide to spend the burn after you determine how effective it is? You use slick, everyone rolls their saves and then if you effect enough creatures you decide to make it last longer. Correct me if I'm wrong but normally you have to pay all expenditures for an ability when you use it. If this carries then you can use your blast, then after you roll to hit then you can add infusions.
I think there are quite a few redundant Wild Talents due to fluff text. Like Pushing Infusion/Pressurized Blast or Flame Jet/Self Telekinesis. I like the fluff text, don't get me wrong, but considering how large this classes page numbers is going to end up, perhaps we should remove the redundancies?
You don't lose spell slots to Crossblooded, you lose Spells Known. So no, I didn't subtract any spells as I didn't need to.
your right I miss read that my apologies, going to assume you stared to reply before I edited my post. also it is only at low levels that kineticist can't have any utility , around lvl 11 a kineticist can quasi teleport, build a stone fort in a day, those are just off the top of my head and really only come from the geokineticist.
Yeah, I started it before your edit. As for that? Yeah, great, you get a small bit of utility whose use varies drastically based on what kind of kineticist you are.
Morzadian wrote:
I stand corrected they do in fact stack (Magical Lineage+ Spellhunter).
Many of us older players left D&D 3.5e because of the mass stacking of things just like this. You could do exact the same thing in 3.5.
Pathfinder fixed many of the problems like Polymorph and the Druid's Animal Companion.
This creates a conundrum of sorts. Not including it in the equation makes the Kineticist weaker than other classes. Include it and there will be cries of a broken class, unstable rules because of splatbook bloat.
Forum discussions have caught the eye of Erik Mona, promising of corrections towards a more balanced ruleset.
Maybe Mark and the rest of the designers are pushing for a 'balanced ruleset.' And that's why the Kineticist class is the way it is.
Interesting question to ask him when he gets back.
It was worse in 3.5, to be honest. Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter let you reduce metamagic by 2 on a single spell. In 3.5 you could reduce each metamagic by 2 on a single spell, allowing you to throw together a ton of 0 adjustment metamagics with +3s and higher to come out with a 0 total adjustment spell monstrosity.
And I don't expect the Kineticist to be balanced towards the optimized caster blaster use case, and I actually hope it isn't. I'd just like a bit more damage and a lot more utility.
Aether: I’d give it a second blast type doing d6 – 1 force damage affected by spell resistance and requiring a touch attack (the aether kineticist should have a ‘magic missile’ option from the get go). The reduced damage prevents it from becoming overpowering compared to traditional damage types. I’d also change the force ward to recover 1 HP every round; still not enough to help much in combat but allows your char to be...
I like your ideas. I would give the telekineticist a bludgeoning blast at 1st instead of force for balance purpose (normal damage). If it were force, for similarity, I think the damage dice would be 1d4+1 at 1st increasing by 1d4+1 every 2 levels after.
About the barrier, refiling it each round sounds amazing. If it were to fill a number o temporary hit points equal to the class level, then it would be meaningful. 1 burn could be spent to refill it as an immediate action.
Can anyone give me a valid reason why the ability to use a Composite Blast at level 8, and a Tri-elemental Composite (3 blasts in one) at 15, but not use composite blasts with iterative attacks, would not keep the balance of power between melee and ranged in check? At level 8 we get to decide between dealing 2 iterative attacks dealing normal damage each, at level 15 we get three. At those same levels we can deal double or triple damage with our regular shot. Now we add a few minor perks to melee that make it worth being closer to harms way, like the fact that entangling takes effect on three separate hits instead of once with the triple blast, and the number of weapon feats and style feats that can work with melee, and suddenly I'm seeing two viable builds here. After all, the biggest concern with balance between melee and ranged right now is that anything you do to ranged you do three times to melee. By giving ranged the exclusive right to Composite and scaling composite alongside iteratives, you get a much narrower gap.
Naturally you want to let Composite Blasting take 1 burn from the start and erase the composite specialization (so you have to use your move action to get it, which puts it PERFECTLY in line with needing to stand still to take your full attack action)
Then you run into the problem that Ranged has to hurt itself to match Melee. While Melee does put itself in some greater amount of danger, the damage they take from enemies can at least be healed, while Ranged's burn can't.
Only if they choose not to use a move action to reduce the burn to 0. If all composites cost 1 burn, you can spend your move action to basically "full attack" with a single shot. If you both composite blast and move you take the extra burn, but that would be the same as taking a full attack action and moving, which should be a burning kind of maneuver.
The real spot I'm running into is that because I'm doing all 3 damage at my full BAB I out hit % the melee option. He hits the same damage, about, but loses accuracy with each iteration. So I'm thinking of making the composite blasts drop the mods, while melee keeps them or even adds both con and str as damage mods(not accuracy). This lets them lose those extra accuracy hits more often, but still have a shot at keeping up with damage in the first two hits, and get ahead a little if they hit all three times.
So I was trying to make a Dwarven Geokinetic. At level 7 when you get to pick up an expanded element, You automatically get the composite blast that you qualify for. All of these expanded blast cost 2 Burn. Is there a way to reduce this? They are not described as Substance or Form Infusions.
On that note, both Rare Metal Infusions and the Magnetic Infusion require level 6 Kinetic to take but you cant use either of these until 7 when you can get a composite blast. This seems poorly thought out.
So I was trying to make a Dwarven Geokinetic. At level 7 when you get to pick up an expanded element, You automatically get the composite blast that you qualify for. All of these expanded blast cost 2 Burn. Is there a way to reduce this? They are not described as Substance or Form Infusions.
On that note, both Rare Metal Infusions and the Magnetic Infusion require level 6 Kinetic to take but you cant use either of these until 7 when you can get a composite blast. This seems poorly thought out.
You can't reduce it beyond the Move to reduce the total blast cost by 1 and the 15th level class feature of Composite Specialization.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
As I see it the damage seems to go the following route for 0 Burn blasts:
Lvl 1 Blast Damage
Lvl 5 Empowered Blast Damage, or Melee for Blast x2 w/buffs (haste)
Lvl 8 Melee Blast x2, x3 with buffs
Lvl 15 Composite Blast, or Melee Blast x2 (x3 next level) plus buffs
Lvl 19 Composite Blast, Empower for Free for 30d6+30 (note this may look like a lot but its only 135 damage on avg plus other bonuses and archers can be doing that level much much sooner)
This assumes that you are only form/substance you might be using is Kinetic Blade/Whip and they are free.
Also some fun things to do for utility with 0 Burn:
Ready action Kinetic Cover, bad guys moves up, hit cover, has to either move around or waste attack.
Actually, Slacker2010, you can use Magnetic with the electric touch attack from Air. And you don't have to take them at level 6, you certainly can wait till 8, if you want to be able to use it right when you get it, but then you have to make do with your regular composite blast for a level before adding that effect. But, the option is there to have magnetic as soon as you have Metal Blast, and Rare Earth the level after (or switched depending on your priorities) if you want them that badly.
As for reducing burn, skip ahead to level 15, composite specialization, for a permanent -1 burn cost. Also the move action to reduce burn by 1 if you aren't moving or using an iterative melee attack build.
Actually, Slacker2010, you can use Magnetic with the electric touch attack from Air. And you don't have to take them at level 6, you certainly can wait till 8, if you want to be able to use it right when you get it, but then you have to make do with your regular composite blast for a level before adding that effect. But, the option is there to have magnetic as soon as you have Metal Blast, and Rare Earth the level after (or switched depending on your priorities) if you want them that badly.
As for reducing burn, skip ahead to level 15, composite specialization, for a permanent -1 burn cost. Also the move action to reduce burn by 1 if you aren't moving or using an iterative melee attack build.
I did miss the Electric blast. Fair enough.
I didn't see all the way down to 15 as I have mostly been playing PFS lately and even in APs, I tend to lose interest at that level due to it becoming large game of rocket tag.
So the only way to use Composite blast is to take burn before level 15. That is kind of crappy.
You can also take the feat Extra Wild Talent (see first page) at 7th level so you can have both wild talents.
Except that the feat on the first page restricts you to 1st level talents until you hit level 10.
What? Really? I didn't read that thing very well then.
Why is this proposed feat so much more restrictive than any other 'extra' feat out there? I mean, it has a minimum Kineticist level of 6, and it restricts access to abilities until certain levels? Hell, even Expanded Arcana, which gives Spontaneous casters more spells known, lets you pick from the highest spell level you have access to!
Ugh... This means I need to rebuild my character builds again because of the restrictions on that feat.
1)Received a natural armor bonus from feel the burn;
2)Could add his Con bonus to AC as an immediate action;
3)Could manipulate other stuff with his element (grab something with earth);
4)Could concentrate to gain a temporary pool of burn points;
5)Could create an encircling damaging barrier from his elements;
6)Was immune to damage created by his own powers;
7)Could learn a domain spell from his element as a SLA;
8)had some martial training;
9)Had some kind of elemental fury when he would ignore all burn costs and nonlethal for a limited time;
10)Had a self healing meaningful mechanic;
11)Could boost his companions weapons with his element.
I wouldn't rebuild over it, it's an unofficial feat he said not to worry too much about the wording of. I get the feeling it'll be made a regular old extra feat soon enough.
I had a few interesting ideas which might solve a problem or two, as well as modeling the DBZ concepts that are floating around.
Why not let the kineticist string multiple consecutive move actions together to reduce burn even further. Ex: Full round action to charge, then one more move action on the second round reduces the burn by 3 for the next blast. That way they trade actions OR hit points for power. At 10th level maybe allow the kineticist to gather power with a swift if he already used his move action for gathering power, so a full round charge reduces the burn by three. Any interrupting action could eliminate the charge, and the maximum charge allowed could scale by level.
Add a class ability at 2nd or 3rd level that lets the kineticist add +5 to his hit chance for one burn, and let the blaster stack this as much as he wants. This gives the kineticist the accuracy he needs when he needs it.
Add a low- (but not 1st) level class ability that reads: The kineticist's control over his chosen element allows him to target foes in melee combat without penalty. When using his blast, treat the kineticist as having the precise shot feat. The kineticist qualifies for feats that require precise shot as a prerequisite, but those feats only apply to his blast unless he takes the precise shot feat as normal.
I think this could help with a few of the issues, plus it drips with flavor.
I don't think that the class needs a fighter's BAB, but because it uses hit points as it's power pool, just increasing the Hit Die to d12 gives the kineticist two more burn to play with during the day. That just might be enough to give him a full day's worth of expanded blasts instead of just one encounter.
I also agree with the need for a few more skill points and non-combat utility powers.
I can see that being a useful, slightly situational tool to reduce the static against burn. "Be awesome, for free, every other turn. Or be decent every turn. Or be awesome every turn if you have to be, but it's gonna hurt. A lot."
A D12 HD will give you two hp/level more to work with, on average. But it won't necessarily give you more burn because of the 3+con max. It would make me reconsider that right now I can't rightly say that I would ever make a kineticist without toughness and using my favored class bonus for HP instead of skill points. Which is unfortunate because toughness just became a feat tax in a feat starved class, and I just traded in skill points for HP on a 2+int class with no int builds. Naturally it's costing me an arm and a leg to minimize the effect of burn, % per use, on my character. I might be able to relax a bit with the D12. Sadly, it doesn't seem likely since it would break the chassis of the class, usually HD is tied in close with BAB, and this class doesn't need full BAB unless some major rebalance is done with the Melee/ranged build power difference.
would Shot on the Run work for the blasts? If so then maybe range would need to build toward being mobile instead going gun turret. Might not be the "best" option but another route to try. when the archer has to move his damage goes below the blasts damage.
By focusing on using his blast as a weapon, the kineticists achieves superior expertise when using either a melee (Kinetic Blade or Whip) or ranged combat (Blast, Composite Blasts) style.
1st. The kineticist chooses one combat style. He gains weapon focus as a bonus feat with his blast when used in either a melee or ranged fashion (not both)
2nd.
Melee: Weapon Finesse, Pirahna Srike, Power Attack
Ranged: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim
This replaces the Wild Talent normally received at 2nd level. The kineticist must otherwise qualify for these feats.
3rd. Enhanced Blast.
When using his chosen fighting style, the kineticist treats his burn level for purposes of Feel the Burn as 1 point higher. This increases to 2 points higher at 9th and 3 points higher at 15th.
The Kineticist's Feel the Burn increase to accuracy and damage (including adding the increases from this archetype) is treated as an enhancement bonus for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction. If the blast used is a touch attack, then the Feel the Burn level is treated as an increase to caster level for purposes of bypassing SR (does not increase damage.)
This increased specialization comes at a cost. The Blast Specialist treats his burn level as 1 point lower for purposes of Feel the Burn when using a blast style outside his specialization. This penalty increases at 9th and 15th level by the corresponding amount.
I feel that a specific archetype for ranged, and one for melee with weapons, and one for melee unarmed, would offer more unique distinction between the three currently in use ways to build this class. Of course, one for multi element, one for pure element, and one for utility would all be nice as well, though presently the options need to be increased to make supporting any of this possible.
would Shot on the Run work for the blasts? If so then maybe range would need to build toward being mobile instead going gun turret. Might not be the "best" option but another route to try. when the archer has to move his damage goes below the blasts damage.
Well, the pre-reqs are tough. If you play a human and forgo precise shot and toughness, you could have it at level 7 (or 6, if you can retrain the level 5 feat). If you're not human, you lose the retrain option. If you want precise shot first then you can't have it until level 9. Or 11 if you feel like you need toughness.
It also locks you even further into being a one-trick pony. Of course, some movement options make this better than others. ("Geokineticist: I glide out of the floor, fire, and glide back down. Neener-neener!")
Shot on the Run: I don't believe so, as SLAs specify standard actions. That said, it's not really all that great. You can shoot and move anyway; if you're not Empowering what else do you have to do with that move action? If you are Empowering, no Shot on the Run anyway.
Rerednaw wrote:
Suggestion. A rough idea anyway...
New Archetype: Kinetic Blast Specialist wrote:
By focusing on using his blast as a weapon, the kineticists achieves superior expertise when using either a melee (Kinetic Blade or Whip) or ranged combat (Blast, Composite Blasts) style.
1st. The kineticist chooses one combat style. He gains weapon focus as a bonus feat with his blast when used in either a melee or ranged fashion (not both)
2nd.
Melee: Weapon Finesse, Pirahna Srike, Power Attack
Ranged: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim
This replaces the Wild Talent normally received at 2nd level. The kineticist must otherwise qualify for these feats.
3rd. Enhanced Blast.
When using his chosen fighting style, the kineticist treats his burn level for purposes of Feel the Burn as 1 point higher. This increases to 2 points higher at 9th and 3 points higher at 15th.
The Kineticist's Feel the Burn increase to accuracy and damage (including adding the increases from this archetype) is treated as an enhancement bonus for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction. If the blast used is a touch attack, then the Feel the Burn level is treated as an increase to caster level for purposes of bypassing SR (does not increase damage.)
This increased specialization comes at a cost. The Blast Specialist treats his burn level as 1 point lower for purposes of Feel the Burn when using a blast style outside his specialization. This penalty increases at 9th and 15th level by the corresponding amount.
Thoughts?
It's the immediate default pick for a Ranged user, since they get the one feat they really need, and its pre-req, and... well Deadly Aim is useless on half the blasts out there, but sure.
And no melee Kineticist would ever take it. Weapon Finesse at second level isn't bad, but a melee-oriented build doesn't have the same feat tax so it's easy to take at 3rd. Weapon Focus is nice, sure, especially when iteratives come into play.
But you've set the melee Kineticist up for failure by giving Power Attack and Piranha Strike but only if they qualify. You can never use both at once and I don't think I've seen a Strength-oriented Kineticist last longer than it takes to say the phrase "Weapon Finesse", so Power Attack is totally wasted.
Piranha Strike is more useful... but it doesn't work with the touch blasts (those that don't mind the crippling accuracy loss) and for the touch blasts, grants a crippling accuracy loss to deal with.
Feel the Burn being treated as higher... why am I not capping Feel the Burn at the start of the day? It's a good idea starting around level 6 and is the default option at 10. Having an ability give me what I have anyway is not going to substantially improve matters.
It being treated as an enhancement bonus for beating DRs is nicer, but I'd rather see that in an item. Beating SR is nice... but when I'm using the weakest offensive tools in the Kineticist arsenal, I actually /do/ want every ounce of bonus damage I can eke out.
But the real killer of this for Melee builds is that last part about eating Burn whenever they shoot.
At lower levels, the melee build has to deal with the standard-at-best mobility that means they're going to be shooting as they close. Charging becomes much less useful when I'm in Light Armor and don't even have a shield (barring Hydrokineticist); especially since I was given an incentive to not buff my DR/temp HP/Shield AC at the start of the day. It mostly turns into a good way to die. Thus I'm going to take my time, let the Fighter and Barbarian rush in while I maneuver. I'm a skirmisher, not a brawler.
At high levels (right now, 12+, though you could swing it at 10 if you don't like Kinetic Form and at 11th if the restrictions on Extra Wild Talent are eased up) the game twists, and I have awesome, incredible mobility by making use of Ride the Blast to swiftly close distance. I'm still a skirmisher, but now I have the ability to simply bypass the front line; open the battle by immediately threatening the casters or archers in the rear. On the flip side, my relative lack of HP means that I'm not necessarily eager to melee everything unless the situation calls for a nova attack. I'm going to hold at range and shoot the Fire Giant, but if the Fire Giant has a caster buddy I'm going to immediately tap him with a Extended Range blast, close the distance, and kick his teeth in.
With this Specialization option, I can't do that. At best, I can do it by eating a reduction in damage, because I spend my move action to gather energy and my standard action to blast burnless-- while the non-Specialized one is using that same energy to Empower their blast. 50% damage loss on sustainable offense. Sure, eating Burn is an option... but following this thread shows how incredibly risk-adverse Kineticist players (including myself, certainly) are about Burn. This means that my high-level Kineticist can put less damage on the table, and my end-game nova abilities are impacted because I bump into the burn-per-round cap, while my low-level Kineticist has to choose between wasting a turn or two not contributing to battle, potentially committing suicide by charging, or not actually doing what he should be to make his talents work. And all of this is, ultimately, for Weapon Finesse a level early (and in place of a Wild Talent to boot; those are actually useful).
When the non-specialized melee Kineticist is better at getting to melee than the actual melee Kineticist, I think we have a problem.
Additional talents, dexterous mind, powerful mind. You may use your con score in place of your (str or dex depending on which talent you are selecting) if you so choose for any skill or ability check.
This represents using your Telekinetic power to move the object instead of your physical might.
This represents using your Telekinetic power to move yourself silently, or manipulate small objects with finesse.
It may be a bit much to let it replace stats for AC, combat maneuvers, and attack, like I had originally considered, but it fixes a lot of skill point problems by using your primary stat. It works well for things like slight of hand, lockpicking, and even stealth by walking on force instead of the floor to mute your steps.
Unfortunately it only really works for the Tele, so you'd need at least to have access to the Tele blast to make thematic sense, and I'm having trouble finding a way to justify it for any other element. Since it is such an awesome option, it feels out of balance to only offer it to one. However, for skills at least, many players will argue with DMs that they can just skip skill checks all together by using their mind. This would give DMs the argument that the substitution of Con for Dex or Str *is* the bonus for being clever and that they still at least have to roll for it.
Same reason why 2-handers don't take Dervish Dance. You don't HAVE to take Weapon Finesse. I don't know of any other accuracy increasing feat (with light or one-handed weapons) other than Focus you can get at low level. Is there one? Power Attack was included on the list for those who want to two-hand a one-hander for better damage instead. In any case KB has 0 burn cost once your hit 5th if you chose form specialization. But based on your feedback I'd remove it from the list entirely and make this more of a finesse build.
I am uncertain if having Deadly Aim work with touch blasts would be too much. Though granted the gunslinger gets exactly that. Which is why I was soliciting feedback, ideally with actual hard numbers. My playtest experience while hardly conclusive has shown that the kineticist has an extremely difficult time being functional.
The Feel the Burn increase is a free +1 (or +2/+2 at level 3, +5/+5 at level 9 if you max at 1 or 2 burn) at a tradeoff for the other style of combat. Or if you chose to not have burn a free scaling bonus that almost keeps pace with full BAB. Or perhaps instead go by the fighter/gunslinger damage scaling benchmark and give a flat dex bonus to damage with a +1 every 5 levels (but I think that's too much).
In summary I guess I'm in a different boat. I don't mind some bonuses for an archetype...but I feel there should be some tradeoff. I get the feeling you want all the bonuses but you didn't mention what would you give up to get them?
And of course I'm still playtesting. What I've included would have brought my 42% accuracy rate closer to 66% in play (I have logged all the combat numbers so far in playtest) which I think is a better range. But it may not be what the "sweet spot" that the devs are looking for.
Its a pretty light chassis. I imagine most people are thinking about straight additions at this point. Very high percentage of class features associated with blasting, yet still low damage output. We certainly can't lower its output in any area and still have a class.
A simple fix at this point would to give them a stack of skill points and some skill related bonuses to appropriate skill sets. Its a bit boring though. I imagine new and varied wild talents that granted crazy utility would help, but then you have to think about associated tightening of viable wild talents.
Anyway, its an interesting problem.
In summary I guess I'm in a different boat. I don't mind some bonuses for an archetype...but I feel there should be some tradeoff. I get the feeling you want all the bonuses but you didn't mention what would you give up to get them?
And of course I'm still playtesting. What I've included would have brought my 42% accuracy rate closer to 66% in play (I have logged all the combat numbers so far in playtest) which I think is a better range. But it may not be what the "sweet spot" that the devs are looking for.
No. But I do believe that for an archetype, additions need to be balanced against costs.
"You cannot effectively close to melee without taking significant HP damage" does not balance against "you get Weapon Focus and Weapon Finesse". One of these is a massively higher loss than the other is a gain.
The melee Kineticist's primary gain from this is a pair of feats, one of which is only arguably necessary. Everything else is something they can already bypass (DR from the Feel the Burn upgrade), something not adding to their abilities (Feel the Burn counting as X higher; they should be capping it), or something that they can't or don't want to use (Piranha Strike, Power Attack). It's very notable that the largest gain after Weapon Focus is the bonus to beat SR, which comes at an additional cost of reducing damage output.
You could balance gains against the costs of "My Kineticist has to think very very hard before he ever attacks somebody from a range of more than 10 feet". But the above is not it.
Also worth noting that you can mix a Composite Blast with a Kinetic Blade, so not sure why that's mentioned as a Ranged ability only.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
It seems to me the class needs the following based on what I have seen in the playtests I have been involved with and my attempts at character creation:
4+ Skill Points, I suggest 5 because its never been done!
I think Hit Die should be upped to d10 or d12, they take enough damage to utilize their abilities the extra makes sense.
The skill list needs to expand, I see a number of players making Diplomacy a class skill with traits just to be contributing outside of combat, consider making it a class skill.
At will scaling cantrip or effect. I suggest a combination of mage hand/prestidigitation that either effects your element (includes effects like spark, create water, mending etc) but increases as you level up. One option is to use Unseen Servant as a base, but made of an appropriate element and basically allow you to do similar activities.
Determine whether Feel the Burn is to cover magic item accuracy issue or BaB accuracy issue. I think the problem is that if you want accuracy you end up focusing on Dex and if you want to use more Burn and focus on the effects of your blasts you need Con. I suggest if Accuracy is a major concern that you increase the bonus on ranged attacks (but not ranged touch) by 1/2 burn rounded down. I also suggest that the feel the burn bonus apply to Spell Penetration checks, possibly at the same level.
Utility I can't wait to see what all is in the books. Right now I think utility is skewed to certain types and we will see greater variation with release. I think there should be more balance in the powers themselves (air flight is good, fire/tk already have an issue so I would remove the number of talents and possibly have the effect increase by level then new talent)
I like the burn mechanic but I would consider in addition have minor burn, abilities that rather than costing 1 burn, deal 1 - 3 Temporary hit point damage in the same mode as burn. I think the Composite blasts should cost 1 burn (can be reduced) and 2 THP instead. This way you may use them several times for the equivalent of 1 burn. Further more this burn will only effect talents like Feel the Burn when you reach another burn "level".
3. I did some searching but havent found an answer to what happens by raw if you hurl grenade like objects via telekinetic blast. Using alchemical weapons seems like a great way to add a bit of variety to an aether kineticist, particularly at low levels, but i have no idea if it should or shouldnt work. A clarification there would be nice. Rational extension of events lends itself to it working. But some of the language in the power itself seems to imply that the object is completely irrelevant.
Mark's answered this a couple of times, and unfortunately, the answer is no, it won't work. :(
Ah, I saw the answer for magic weapons and special materials, didnt see that it was also a response for things like alchemist fire. Not exactly sure how that works, but that was the rules as intended that i expected. A shame, its an intriguing idea, and one that makes a low level aeither kineticist far more interesting, then dedicated rock flinger.
Edit:
One thing that still isnt clear, is that if such an item is thrown, does that later of aether both prevent it from effecting the target and keep it in tact? for instance, an alchemist fire thrown with a telekinetic blast land in tact in the square of the target? Or would it explode but to no effect trapped in the aether?
There are some items that still might be particularly useful if they land in tact, a fuse grenade comes to mind. But there are other such items. Basically anything that you would normally throw and then wait a round or more for an effect.
Could really use an answer to this, planning on introducing an npc foe into my Iron Gods Campaign Saturday, and it would make it alot more interesting if he could throw grenades with telekinetic blast, they land, then explode a round later (note this applies potentially to other items like the fuse grenade alchemical weapon also). What exactly happens with these thrown items? Do they land in tact in the square of the targeted enemy since they dont explode if they are alchemist fires or vials of poison?
3. I did some searching but havent found an answer to what happens by raw if you hurl grenade like objects via telekinetic blast. Using alchemical weapons seems like a great way to add a bit of variety to an aether kineticist, particularly at low levels, but i have no idea if it should or shouldnt work. A clarification there would be nice. Rational extension of events lends itself to it working. But some of the language in the power itself seems to imply that the object is completely irrelevant.
Mark's answered this a couple of times, and unfortunately, the answer is no, it won't work. :(
Ah, I saw the answer for magic weapons and special materials, didnt see that it was also a response for things like alchemist fire. Not exactly sure how that works, but that was the rules as intended that i expected. A shame, its an intriguing idea, and one that makes a low level aeither kineticist far more interesting, then dedicated rock flinger.
Edit:
One thing that still isnt clear, is that if such an item is thrown, does that later of aether both prevent it from effecting the target and keep it in tact? for instance, an alchemist fire thrown with a telekinetic blast land in tact in the square of the target? Or would it explode but to no effect trapped in the aether?
There are some items that still might be particularly useful if they land in tact, a fuse grenade comes to mind. But there are other such items. Basically anything that you would normally throw and then wait a round or more for an effect.
Could really use an answer to this, planning on introducing an npc foe into my Iron Gods Campaign Saturday, and it would make it alot more interesting if he could throw grenades with telekinetic blast, they land, then explode a round later (note this applies potentially to other...
Well currently.. they just do not explode or anything, they simply.. break? if the damage done is enough to break it. but currently that is all that happens oddly. Somehow it breaks but no effects seem to go off
(As it's been stated that the item doesn't work by Mark at some point, but the in text says it breaks).
Though that does leave a few things that are usuable-assuming they don't break on impact. There are a few alchemical weapons that you lit and they blow up on alater round. So you could do that.
You could also team it. So one person pulls the grenade/arms it and holds it out to the TK who l aunches it. In theory if it does't break fro mthe TK blast it wil lgo off due to already being armed by the other person once the countdown finishes.
SO By RAW. You blast the item, it hits does damage to the guy, and rolls damage agianst the item. If it breaks it just breaks. If it does not break fro mthe damage then yeah.. it would land on the ground I suppose in tact (assuming no long falls) which means th eenemy could pick it up. Would be an amusing way to launch your friends magic weapon that was just disarmed. By launching hte weapon at the guy's square
Personally? I'm inclined to say if the item breaks from the TK blast, then if it's the type of item that activates on break it'll go off.
So I really think stuff like smoke sticks, thunderstones, and some explosives should go off. I could see alchemical vials breaking as well...
but I am wholey voting that the Vs normal AC tk blast really really should allow for the item properties to an extent
If there's going to be no special effect for using certain items I'd rather the item used in the TK Blast be unharmed; the same layer of aether that is magnifying the strike is protecting the item within from harm.
That way we can have Telekineticists with signature items. As a GM, I'd like to make a boss character that uses his TK blasts to fight with a creepy puppet...
I'm in the group that feels TK should take advantage of the items thrown. I realize this would take some heavy rebalancing, but I feel it would be worth it in the long run, if for nothing more than flavor and coolness.
It may have to be an infusion to allow for balance reasons.
I'm not really sure TK should even be in this class. Thematically a TK is quite different from a "bender". There are very few physical TK in fiction. TK are almost all will based.
I'm not really sure TK should even be in this class. Thematically a TK is quite different from a "bender". There are very few physical TK in fiction. TK are almost all will based.
Even in Avatar, the class seems to be Wisdom-based (Remember how Zuko became a much better bender when he came to terms with his role in the world, and how Azula lost much of her effectiveness after she became insane. And none of the main characters seems particularly tough, physically speaking).
I was actually quite surprised when I saw the class was Con-based. I guess it's so that Burn doesn't hurt as much, but it didn't work very well IME.
IMHO, the class should have a Wisdom-based Ki pool rather than suffer non-healable damage just to use its class features. HP Burn could still be an option for character that run out of Ki, though.
If hat's not possible, I'd love to see a Monk archetype that got some Kineticist stuff (although lessened, of course), using Ki instead of Burn to fuel their abilities.
TK throwing items with effects is not something that needs rebalancing. Most alchemical items deal 1d6 or have some minor effect. The items that are not disposable won't be used for long, as the blast damages the object as well. There is also the cost of the said items witch works much like buying magical ammo for bows or crossbows.
Ignoring the item properties is probably a flaw or design choice for this round of the playtest, but I wouldn't bet it will show in the final product.
Element universal; Type Su; Level 4; Burn —
Prerequisites kineticist level 7th, expanded element
Choose an element you selected with expanded element. You
gain that element’s defense wild talent. You can take this wild
talent multiple times. If you do so, you must choose a different
element each time.
You can not get this talent at level 7. It requires expanded element which you can get at 7th level. Earliest you can get this is 8th level. This would be fixed if the Extra Wild Talent didnt have any restrictions on it. Why does it anyway? Doesnt required Kineticist level do the balancing?
I feel there are just too many similarities between techniques to bother making TK a separate class. If it fails completely to mesh, then we may end up not seeing a TK player at all (or, maybe making it an archetype of kineticist instead of an elemental option).
However, I feel that you can make certain tricks work with the TK blast just fine. I'd say if the item is not "delicate" it should survive the impact. If it is delicate, it should break as normal and do what things do when they break. After all, if you want to pay for acid to throw every single turn of combat, you should have every right to carry that mass of vials around and throw them at whatever moves. However, as a dm, I reserve the right to make you reflex save to catch them once in a while as your pack slips off your shoulder. Also, between being expensive and a pain to do, they don't honestly do that much. 1d4 acid is nothing past 2nd level. Even for this class that gets useless fast. The most useful items to throw for their properties are staffs to break them for wild magics, extraplanar portals for nasty interactions with the Astral plane, and similar expensive things that the DM can swiftly call out by simply not selling them again at stores if the players are being boneheads about it.
Well the class isn't specifically Benders only ya'kno? They're psychich Kineticists. Which typically is all elements, TK, light, and darkness in most comment stories. Benders in the actual show aren't really psychis at al lsince they're empowered by those turtle thingies originally. They're more like Sorcerers in that world. So there is certainl ya similarity and this c lass lets you make benders so much easier and funnier- in my opinion. but that idea shouldn't override the actual class.
I'd love a later release with light and shadows as well.
I guess I could see an archtype for TK but still. the actual class idea was Kinesticsts rather than benders.
Really it's pretty easy to have them have the same mechanical benefits but different flavors.
Kinetic form being one of the ones I point out. The TK one could just give stat bonuses as the TK is just reinforcing his body with his mind. (but I also think that talent shouldn't transform you into an elemental just give yo ubonuses and maybe resistances in case of the elements)
so here is a question if I can take two move actions and a standard in a single round, use both move actions to gather energy do I reduce the burn cost by 1 or 2 for my next blast used in that round.
Kinetic form being one of the ones I point out. The TK one could just give stat bonuses as the TK is just reinforcing his body with his mind. (but I also think that talent shouldn't transform you into an elemental just give yo ubonuses and maybe resistances in case of the elements)
This is a great idea. The TK enveloping his body in active kinetic power to enhance his physical actions seems a great way to go to balance with elemental body.
Well the class isn't specifically Benders only ya'kno? They're psychich Kineticists. Which typically is all elements, TK, light, and darkness in most comment stories. Benders in the actual show aren't really psychis at al lsince they're empowered by those turtle thingies originally. They're more like Sorcerers in that world. So there is certainl ya similarity and this c lass lets you make benders so much easier and funnier- in my opinion. but that idea shouldn't override the actual class.
I'd love a later release with light and shadows as well.
I guess I could see an archtype for TK but still. the actual class idea was Kinesticsts rather than benders.
Really it's pretty easy to have them have the same mechanical benefits but different flavors.
Kinetic form being one of the ones I point out. The TK one could just give stat bonuses as the TK is just reinforcing his body with his mind. (but I also think that talent shouldn't transform you into an elemental just give yo ubonuses and maybe resistances in case of the elements)
Well... They aren't exactly a perfect match for psychic kineticists either... They have good Reflex rather than Will and are based on a physical attribute, while most psychics in fiction have their power based on mental prowess (although they do often go over their limits and suffer physical consequences)
I'm not seeing anything specifically against it, does anyone have an objection to linking outside sources? I am putting together a MASSIVE overhaul excel sheet for this class, with brand new features from many posters here, as a potential "fan draft 2.0". It is intended to add major levels of utility, better integrate multielemental choices, up damage and accuracy, and balance melee/ranged options. Ultimately it's a work of 4 days, having constructed a 1-20 model of every element and read over 30 pages of feedback. So far I have 3 choices of elemental defense, touch and normal attacks for each class, choice of one handed, two handed, dual wield, unarmed, and blast attacks, 3 substances for each element, reduced blast necessity to make it only significantly appear when you exceed the limits of what you reasonably should be able to do at your level, gave a massive and scaling elemental control utility package, and after all of that still feel that I've only just touched the surface of what is possible. I do think, however, that I made a version which is at least as playable as the existing class. Which means, at the least, that it can serve to help us compare certain options and decide better routes forward. I currently have it all on paper, and can have it on Google drive spreadsheet tomorrow and link it here if anyone is interested. If not, I can always PM it to Mark directly. I'd like to get some feedback on it from other players though.
I'm not really sure TK should even be in this class. Thematically a TK is quite different from a "bender". There are very few physical TK in fiction. TK are almost all will based.
Even in Avatar, the class seems to be Wisdom-based (Remember how Zuko became a much better bender when he came to terms with his role in the world, and how Azula lost much of her effectiveness after she became insane. And none of the main characters seems particularly tough, physically speaking).
I was actually quite surprised when I saw the class was Con-based. I guess it's so that Burn doesn't hurt as much, but it didn't work very well IME.
IMHO, the class should have a Wisdom-based Ki pool rather than suffer non-healable damage just to use its class features. HP Burn could still be an option for character that run out of Ki, though.
If hat's not possible, I'd love to see a Monk archetype that got some Kineticist stuff (although lessened, of course), using Ki instead of Burn to fuel their abilities.
Lean away from Avatar as the sole influence of the class. There are lots of element-wielding heroes and villains in fiction.
The Human Torch doesn't burn hotter because he got smarter, and neither does Roy Mustang. Kakashi became a more powerful fighter explicitly via physical training.
I'd also argue against Azula losing effectiveness. She lost tactical acumen, certainly, but it didn't seem like her fire or lightning got weaker.
I certainly wouldn't mind a Monk archetype, perhaps focused on using Kinetic Fist. That would be nicer than using a precious Kineticist archetype for it, and Mark's hinted pretty heavily that Fist will get some Archetype Love.
I can see an argument for torch being physical but mustang is int based. All alchemists are int based to one extent or another. Even Armstrong. Alchemy in fma is basically just crafting.
Want to play an Alchemist (in a nutshell) in Pathfinder? Get yourself Fabricate and Blood Money as at-will spell-like abilities and find a GM who's willing to run it a little loosely for your concept.
I can see an argument for torch being physical but mustang is int based. All alchemists are int based to one extent or another. Even Armstrong. Alchemy in fma is basically just crafting.
For Mutang, I would contend that his Int is governing his flexibility, but not his raw power.
Sure, it took Int for him to rip water apart into hydrogen and oxygen and use that to make a really big boom, but the actual intensity of his fire isn't really governed by that.
For other alchemists, yes. It's so obnoxiously flexible that alchemy boils down to "how hard can you cheat physics", and knowing how physics works helps screw it harder.
But that was one example out of three-- four if you count Benders-- and thus I stand by my point. Even disregarding the practical concerns of a stat that desperately needs a high Con mod, Wis doesn't really fit.
