Shiroi wrote: @Zwordsman - blade/whip/fist all say associated blast any. So to my knowledge you can use a composite blast with them.
you are correct on the lack of substance in a force blaster. You are also correct on the 1 form per blast limiter. Otherwise? Whip + Extended range. My god look at all those attacks of opportunity you just took by existing in my room.
That says Kinetic blast. Isn't composite blasts a different thing than Kinetic blasts? I was under the impression upon reading the composite blast section that they were no longer the same thing.
I guesss I noted the 3 different words they use in the section. Simple blast, composite blast, and kinetic blast. It sounded like Kinetic blasts are the class feature with simple blasts being the element type's base blast. While compositie blasts were something else.
but it makes sense if it just modifies kinetic blast I guess. That can make for some serious bladework then.
I wasn't originally going to make melee effects on my TKer but it sorta seems extra needed for pure aether who doesn't really get much damage alteration
No, the iconic will be a human girl in a blood soaked prom dress;)
To my understanding simple and complex blasts are the two types of kinetic blast which can then be modified by form and substance infusions. That's how I've been working with it, since several form blasts specifically call out elements they can be used with and include both simple and complex blasts on that list. (Such as Impaling calling out both earth [simple] and metal [complex])
If we assume that complex blasts don't work unless specifically called out, they lose the range infusions and melee infusions. At which point I argue profusely that they just became useless.
I'll assume they work under a call for "any blast".
Zwordsman wrote: So was building an aetherist..
so at lv 7 you can pick up Expanded element Aetherist.
This lets you use aetheric boost which costs 2 burn and/or force blast for 2 burn. right?
Is there any way prior to lv 15 to lower those burn costs?
As near as I can tell TKers can only get the TK blast, then Boost then Force Blast as far as pure TK attacks go (well and of course theblade stuff. However that only works TK blast which could be augmented with Aetheric boost; but you couldn't use Force Blast since that isn't a simple blast listed in Blade/whip right?)
Is there any substance infusions for Aetherists? As near as I can tell thre aren't any that apply. Just many form types--but you can only apply one form per use no matter what right? (man.. I would love incrased range and foe throw. or many throw and foe throw)
I mean outside of the mage hand and the improved version (at which point I'll honestly be dropping crap on people or potentially having bags of alchemical weapons dropping on some things heads)
EDIT: That wyld talent that makes the mage hand work for 100lbs per TK level.. Re reading that it doesn't seem like that actually increases what you can throw via TK blast does it? Thats disappointing haha
Pretty much, yeah. Honestly, the Burn mechanic is kinda useless and cripples the class. Other classes get to do a ton of damage and utility at literally zero cost other than using charges off an ability. Kineticist needs to both burn points of Burn it can take, and then soak up nonlethal damage.
If Burn was, instead, changed to something like 1 point per level non-primary blasts, going down to 1/2 level if you pick up Expanded Element in your own element, and the burn reduction abilities came online earlier, it might not be completely terrible. If you got a pool that you can use to safely soak burn, and then ABOVE that pool it did damage to you? That'd be good.
But as-is? It's kinda extremely limiting and doesn't add anything other than flavor, and mechanically it sorta cripples the class to some extent. Sure, you can reduce the cost of Forms and Infusions and that's GREAT. It comes online too late to make the class even somewhere CLOSE to remotely competitive in damage, and in order to get something that (Assuming both Vital Strike AND Mythic Vital Strike work) would be STILL less damage by a large amount than traditional damage dealers, they need to soak upwards of 3 points of burn. Snaking Metal Entangling Infusion with Aetheric Boost burn cost: 2(Snaking)+2(Metal)+2(Entangling)+2(Boost) for a total of 0(Snaking)+1(Metal)+0(Entangling)+1(Boost) which is minimum 20 damage to do, at level 20, 20d6+40. That's damage that a Sorceror is doing with a middle-level spellslot, no damage or risk to themselves, and that damage is PATHETIC compared to what's actually needed at that level. That's damage that gets ROUTINELY laughed at because it's worthless compared to actual damage dealers, and to do even THAT much you're eating minimum 20 damage. If you want to do something vaguely approaching respectable damage (Which any even remotely competently built Archer, Gunslinger, or properly built melee character will outdo by MILES still), you'll need to Maximize it. Now you'll do 160 damage, at the cost of 40 unhealable non-lethal damage to yourself and knocking two points off your burn pool. You're doing this at a far lower attack bonus than a comparable class, and you're doing far less than half the damage of them. An Alchemist at that level is chucking 7 bombs for around 10d6+20 with varied elemental damages, against touch AC on all of them, and gets AoE for free. In terms of the argument of "You get it all day, that's OP!" no, it isn't. if you can do something all day, but you can't do it well at all, it doesn't matter. When it comes down to it and you need to be able to, in order to pull your weight in a party and quite bluntly to survive as a character, you need to be able to put out something worthwhile. That Alchemist? He'll reliable hit on nearly all his attacks. That's about 60d6+120 right there. The MINIMUM damage it does? It beats the Kineticist. That Alchemist also gets utility all over the place aside from bombs, and can apply a variety of status effects with his bombs. And he can buff the party. And he can function as a Rogue with skills.
And the Alchemist isn't considered OP. They're considered fairly middle-ground in terms of powerlevel.
If your end-game Kineticist is only doing 20D6+40 over the course of a round of combat...
... He needs to close to melee. I worked out the nova option at about seven-eight times that.
In 1,400 posts, I'd say we have half of them being "damage math", half of what's left being blunt statements repeated about damage math and this is OP or this is way UP, half of what's left of that is rules questions... which leaves about 175 comments about actual suggestions for how to improve. Is there any way to distill this information and make a thread with all of the suggestions for improvements displayed cleanly? This thread is bonkers large and nobody will read all of it. It can safely be split into Kineticists : rules questions, Kineticists : Math Works, and Kineticists : Suggestions. I would do this myself but I'm on a phone. Since the Playtest organizer is AFK on family emergency, I feel that this would be a very kind gesture on someone's part to help chew this information for him.
Or, at least, to separate it now for future efforts to be better organized,even if past efforts are left here.
Shiroi wrote: In 1,400 posts, I'd say we have half of them being "damage math", half of what's left being blunt statements repeated about damage math and this is OP or this is way UP, half of what's left of that is rules questions... which leaves about 175 comments about actual suggestions for how to improve. Is there any way to distill this information and make a thread with all of the suggestions for improvements displayed cleanly? This thread is bonkers large and nobody will read all of it. It can safely be split into Kineticists : rules questions, Kineticists : Math Works, and Kineticists : Suggestions. I would do this myself but I'm on a phone. Since the Playtest organizer is AFK on family emergency, I feel that this would be a very kind gesture on someone's part to help chew this information for him. Mark actually had been reading all of it and has pretty much said that he will continue that once he returns to duty.
That said, I've kind of been compiling suggestions to try to put it all in one distilled document. That's more a for-me thing; what I would like to see changed in the class, and while what I think has been influenced very heavily by this thread, there have also been a lot of suggestions that I don't agree with.
But, to be honest... separating, say, suggestions from math doesn't really work. Earlier I tossed around the notion of a Fast Bombs equivalent for the Kineticist, and whether to make that a generic Wild Talent with no burn cost or a Form Infusion. The answer to that involves math; there's no way around it.
Yeah.. Well I can see splitting "rules how does this work ,does it work like this, is this valid with this" and "suggestions/math" being two different things.
Granted I have suggestions but no math to back it up, just general feel ideas from playing mostly 3/4 guys.
Edit: Maybe a thread about what people want a kineticist to be? Like no suggestions no math, just input on what they hoped out of the class. Less useful yea, but interesting
quick math for lvl 20 kineticist with improved vital strike and mythic vital strike
ranged nova
20d6+34+(10d6+17)+40d6+68 so far 0 burn maximixe and double make 6 burn
(120+34+77+240+68)x2=1078 thier is only one enemy that i can find on D20 that has enough hitpoint and DR to survive this and its a CR 39.
Very well. I've created a thread, however, with the intent that specific ideas that have been hashed out here can be recorded there. For instance, you discussed the math of iterative blasts here. If you make a post there with the idea for the talent, it's now easier to find specific suggestions. After all, I've seen (increase the damage) a million times here. Over there having it posted once makes reading other ideas easier.
kestral287 wrote: If your end-game Kineticist is only doing 20D6+40 over the course of a round of combat...
... He needs to close to melee. I worked out the nova option at about seven-eight times that.
Why should you be required to close to melee when any comparably built melee character will either be 2hing and doing, still, well over double your output with no cost to themselves, or when any Archer regardless of class can do as good or better than you at longer range than you?
The answer isn't "Use this one specific build that works", the answer is "Make the class not horrible enough that you absolutely NEED to use the absolute minmax build that /still falls massively behind/ anything else that does damage.
If you're going to claim 7-8 times that? Go build it out and show us.
alternis sol wrote: quick math for lvl 20 kineticist with improved vital strike and mythic vital strike
ranged nova
20d6+34+(10d6+17)+40d6+68 so far 0 burn maximixe and double make 6 burn
(120+34+77+240+68)x2=1078 thier is only one enemy that i can find on D20 that has enough hitpoint and DR to survive this and its a CR 39.
20d6+40(20d6 base Metal blast, +1/die Aetheric Boost)+Con of say 8 for 20d6+48 base. Mythic and Improved Vital Strike for 60d6+142. You're already eating one burn for that alone. Maximize+1 burn. Quicken for another, NON-VITAl STRIKE, blast at 20d6+40.
Depending on whether you can get two Vital-Striked blasts at once, which I'd doubt, you're looking at either ~1130 damage, or 632+20d6+40 for about 760 damage. If it's Maximised still, it goes up by an average of about 40 damage. That's 800 damage at the cost of 6 burn. 800 damage at the cost of 120 damage to yourself that can't be healed at all, and you're got far less chance of hitting than other striker-role characters.
In order to do that, you're eating 1 Burn from Maximize, 1 Burn from Composite, 4 Burn from Doubleblast, and reducing that by 1. So a total of 6 points of burn, the absolute maximum that you can get.
Meanwhile, other damage dealers are doing the exact same thing at no damage to themselves, while also having more skills, utility, hit points, higher chances of hitting, from higher ranges potentially, and with more ease of bypassing DR.
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Mythic Vital Strike should not be a factor in determining the balance of the core game.
Double posting makes puppies cry and murders kittens.
Out of curiosity what other Meta Magics would people like to see if Paizo decided to grant some options on those?
Personally I would really like to see widen spell to make those AOE blasts even bigger.
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Tels wrote: Mythic Vital Strike should not be a factor in determining the balance of the core game. It's an example to show that even under an EXTREMELY favorable circumstance and a number of buffs, the class /still underperforms/ and gets outdone hard, and can only even do THAT much at large cost to itself.
Goblinsaurus wrote: kestral287 wrote: If your end-game Kineticist is only doing 20D6+40 over the course of a round of combat...
... He needs to close to melee. I worked out the nova option at about seven-eight times that.
Why should you be required to close to melee when any comparably built melee character will either be 2hing and doing, still, well over double your output with no cost to themselves, or when any Archer regardless of class can do as good or better than you at longer range than you?
The answer isn't "Use this one specific build that works", the answer is "Make the class not horrible enough that you absolutely NEED to use the absolute minmax build that /still falls massively behind/ anything else that does damage.
If you're going to claim 7-8 times that? Go build it out and show us. Whether or not you "should" be required to close to melee-- and I don't believe that you should, to be fair-- right now you are. Simple as that. That said, I don't know if I'd call one feat, one wild talent (preferably two, but Kinetic Whip isn't truly needed) a build, but that's all a Kineticist truly needs to fight in melee.
The build I ran the math on is way back in this thread, probably easier to rebuild it at this point since I know there was at least one significant tweak. Key points though:
-Hydrokineticist who takes Expanded Element (Air) twice (though only once is needed, twice allows flexibility).
-Weapon Finesse, Kinetic Whip
-Extreme Range, Ride the Blast
-Chilling Infusion (not actually needed but costs nothing)
-Greater Kinetic Form
-Infusion Specialization: Form x2, Substance x3
-Metakinetic Master on Empowered
-Con stat is 34 (18 + 3 level + 6 belt + 5 Wish)
-Dex stat is 34 (16 + 2 level + 6 belt + 4 Wish + 6 Elemental Body IV (Air))
-Arashi owns Boots of Speed
-The fight begins within a range of 480 feet
Arashi carries around 6 Burn as a fact of life; keeping his Feel the Burn maxed (and incidentally, letting him run around as a Huge Elemental and keeping his AC bonus off Shroud of Water high).
34 is a +12 modifier, giving him a burn cap of 15, though he can only unleash six burn in a given round. That's his nova option then.
He identifies his target, and begins the fight with a Quickened (+3) Empowered (+1-1=0) Extreme Range (+2-2=0) Chilling (+3-3=0) Cold Blast (0) with Ride the Blast (0). He's eating three Burn off that attack, and it will do (10D6+6+6)*1.5= an average of 70 damage.
Arashi is now in melee with his target. He activates a Maximized (+2) Empowered (+1-1=0) Kinetic Whip (+2-2=0) Chilling (+3-3=0) Blizzard Blast (+2-1=1), for three additional burn, and full attacks. That'll do (20*6+20+12+6) + (10*3.5+10+6+3) damage, an average of 212 per attack, and Arashi has a total of four attacks, including his Boots of Speed.
Total average damage, assuming no crits but perfect accuracy, = 70+203*4= 918 damage. Each hit forces a Fort save at DC28 (I think; not entirely clear on how the DCs act just yet but I'm reasonably sure that's right) to avoid a Stagger.
20D6+40 = average of 110 damage, so I estimated slightly low.
Obviously sustainable offense is lower (average 70), though it'll still be above 110 once Arashi closes to melee and full attacks (average 211 without Boots of Speed, 282 with).
This also assumes there are no concerns with accuracy or various resistances, the latter of which is somewhat problematic because Blizzard Blast hits literally every defense possible, but even at CR20 there are lots of creatures where that's not particularly relevant and I'm still hoping for a better way to solve the accuracy issue than touch blasts. If, however, Arashi is up against a target with an AC too high to reliably hit, he will fall back on Touch blasts. If the AC is lower, Arashi would use a Water Elemental form instead to increase his Con.
As far as min-maxing goes... Arashi's base stats aren't dumped, outside of Cha (partially to get stats where they need to be, partially because he's an old character... and the original Arashi was a jerk to begin with). 10 Str, 16 Dex, 18 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha. The requirements of the damage output are Kinetic Blade (though Whip is preferred), Extended Range (though Extreme is preferred), Expanded Element, and Ride the Blast. Four Wild Talents, one of which almost every build I've seen takes and two of which literally every build I've seen takes (and I don't think I've failed to see Ride the Blast on a level 12 build, though there aren't many so I'm not sure). Added onto that is a minimum of one Infusion Specialization on Form (two is preferred), and a bunch of class abilities that you get anyway. Oh, and a handful of items that any high-level Kineticist should be jumping on. Not exactly a hyperspecialized build, I'd say.
The hyperspecialized version would be able to jump damage up by another... call it hundred-twenty or so, via a Conductive weapon (probably a Dueling Sword) and the Two-Weapon Fighting chain, using the Kinetic Blade as the off-hand weapon. Too lazy to run the numbers on that because it's frankly not all that relevant and Conductive is kind of wonky right now for the Kineticist.
Shiroi wrote: @Zwordsman - blade/whip/fist all say associated blast any. So to my knowledge you can use a composite blast with them.
you are correct on the lack of substance in a force blaster. You are also correct on the 1 form per blast limiter. Otherwise? Whip + Extended range. My god look at all those attacks of opportunity you just took by existing in my room.
Actually picking a whip as your weapon with elemental whip already gives a 15' reach and the ability to attack adjacent targets.
At 16th level greater kinetic form grants 15' reach, doubled to 30' if using a reach weapon. Kinetic blade means all squares are threatened.
As a point of curiosity: what is the reach of a huge creature using a whip? If you follow the size progression for normal attacks and reach attacks it should be 45', but I don't believe whips on large/huge creatures are specifically addressed by RAW.
I feel like, with burn cost applying to them, you could assign a level of burn and a level to receive about every meta that exists. Whatever it normally increases spell level by, about that many burn. Whatever level you could normally take it, give it to us about that level. It doesn't feel exceptionally unreasonable since you pay burn through the nose to use them in any quantity.
I'd suggest something along the lines of changing metakinetic master to "remove x burn from the first meta applied to your blast this round" and have it scale up from -1 at lvl5 to -4 at lvl20. This gives you a free double by then, which helps damage a lot. Now you can basically get any 1 meta free, more useful ones only in late game, but pay for the rest. Makes meta like another infusion type.
Shiroi wrote: I feel like, with burn cost applying to them, you could assign a level of burn and a level to receive about every meta that exists. Whatever it normally increases spell level by, about that many burn. Whatever level you could normally take it, give it to us about that level. It doesn't feel exceptionally unreasonable since you pay burn through the nose to use them in any quantity.
I'd suggest something along the lines of changing metakinetic master to "remove x burn from the first meta applied to your blast this round" and have it scale up from -1 at lvl5 to -4 at lvl20. This gives you a free double by then, which helps damage a lot. Now you can basically get any 1 meta free, more useful ones only in late game, but pay for the rest. Makes meta like another infusion type.
That seems like a bit much as far as damage goes. What I'd lean toward is a somewhat more specialized version of the last part of what you said: make it an option for Infusion Specialization. Instead of picking all Metakinetics, though, you'd pick one (that you currently have access to), and you couldn't drop it below one point of Burn. Metakinetic Master retains its uniqueness because it can still drop them to 0 Burn, though if that feels insufficient you could pick two for it.
I'd have to do some pondering for how the math come out. However, with your version a free Quicken at level 15 is seriously powerful paired with Ride the Blast and the basic melee setup.
It is, I agree, but I'm basically stating this as a possible way to fix the damage issues the class already has. In other words, if it was done that way you might not bother to increase the damage in any other way. You could also make it 5/10/15 so it only reduces by up to 3. Then double still costs at least something. There's some math to be done for it anyways.
I can see meta as a specialization option done that way. Though I'd make it (type of meta group) if every meta was made available. Picking 1 of 4 meta for your specializaton is different from picking 1/40ish metas. There's more of those than I remember. Also some of those are forms, so they shouldn't be made available as metas also or you could conflict.
so maybe 10 new metas (-some for the form ones) at certain levels, and the cost drops a bit for a particular group you select as a specialization if you choose that.
I'm not sure if I'm okay with every Metamagic being available. But I might be mostly worried about Dazing, which would get absolutely ridiculous at higher levels (whee save against every one of my attacks or be Dazed for nine rounds).
I do think the list could be expanded, but that might be a little too far.
It becomes all about burn cost. If one is extremely nasty for our class it may need to be increased in cost. Outlawed flat out is an option for sure if it can't be balanced.
Of course, I've yet to see the confirmation from the designers that RAI meta affects more than the first swing with a melee weapon. We all assume it does, but there is rules precedent for otherwise.
A solid case in point, Impale. If you crit, it only crits the first target. Using a single meta to affect up to 6 iterative attacks and some AoO to boot (fist/greater two weapon fighting) might not be the way they wanted to go.
Shiroi wrote: It becomes all about burn cost. If one is extremely nasty for our class it may need to be increased in cost. Outlawed flat out is an option for sure if it can't be balanced.
Of course, I've yet to see the confirmation from the designers that RAI meta affects more than the first swing with a melee weapon. We all assume it does, but there is rules precedent for otherwise.
A solid case in point, Impale. If you crit, it only crits the first target. Using a single meta to affect up to 6 iterative attacks and some AoO to boot (fist/greater two weapon fighting) might not be the way they wanted to go.
Kinetic Blade/Whip is explicitly a single blast right now, used as part of a larger action. I don't disagree that they might want to shift away from that, but right now it pretty clearly is one metakinetic per round of attacks.
hrm tried to type this on tablet but i dont' think it worked..
I kind of look at Kinetic form. I originally read it as you gain the stat bonuses from Elemental bodies- you didn't actuall ytransform and gain the size changes. but it's been pointed out it does basically replicate the spell and you change. but you don't get the movement styles from it. and I wonder if that means you don't have hands persay for the blast and the move action reduction thing....
Does anyone else think it might be good to atler things abit? Make it a standarized bonus. Basically Maybe just the bonuses you'd normally get from elemental form or just straight stat bonuses and or maybe resistances or DR...
but doing something like that, would allow for every element thats available and every element that will come hereafter. Since right now Aetherist has no sort of boosts to itself; when it could easil ybe fluffed as telekinetic reinforcement of body. (or make it it's own seperate thing).
You actually do get the movement styles from Kinetic Form, what you miss are the special abilities (most of them at least). But an Air Elemental still gets its Fly speed.
Standardizing it is a big boon for Terrakineticists, since they get the least-useful stat spread, and a nerf for Pyrokineticists, since they get the most useful spread. To me though, it depends on how too many other things come out to say for sure right now. If everybody gets both kinds of blasts it becomes much less important; if not Earth really needs the Dex boost.
Ah also.
I think most metamagic shouldn't be supplied.. Though I would like Enlarge on the whole bombardment principle.. and maybe the mercy one.
Oh and penetrating.. I feel like that would be something I'd pay burn for in some situations.
but past that? I don't think most can really apply fairly considering the innate scaling of caster level that blasts are
Goblinsaurus wrote:
20d6+40(20d6 base Metal blast, +1/die Aetheric Boost)+Con of say 8 for 20d6+48 base. Mythic and Improved Vital Strike for 60d6+142. You're already eating one burn for that alone. Maximize+1 burn. Quicken for another, NON-VITAl STRIKE, blast at 20d6+40.
Depending on whether you can get two Vital-Striked blasts at once, which I'd doubt, you're looking at either ~1130 damage, or 632+20d6+40 for about 760 damage. If it's Maximised still, it goes up by an average of about 40 damage. That's 800 damage at the cost of 6 burn. 800 damage at the cost of 120 damage to yourself that can't be healed at all, and you're got far less chance of hitting than other striker-role characters.
Meanwhile, other damage dealers are doing the exact same thing at no damage to themselves, while also having more skills, utility, hit points, higher chances of hitting, from higher ranges potentially, and with more ease of bypassing DR.
for the double vital strike this is how I got it
At 17th level, by accepting 4 points of burn, she can
use her kinetic blast twice with the same action, when
using a double blast, all additional enhancements apply to
both of the doubled blasts.
this also means that I can use a wand of true strike to enhance both of them the turn before to put my hit with a dex of 20 at 44 so 42 at 960ft (my miss chance is 25% at worst). which is beyond perception range of everything so they are flatfooted to me and can't retaliate if they survive. my heatlh after take all 240 burn damage is still at 263 (yeah kinetic body) which matches that of a fighter with a 20. con score at lvl 20. if i'm doing a 1100 damage why the hell do I care if it has DR it is not going to save it from dieing. about the only thing that has more hitpoints than me is a barbarian or a fighter/paladin tank, non of which are going to out nova me.
alternis sol wrote: Goblinsaurus wrote:
20d6+40(20d6 base Metal blast, +1/die Aetheric Boost)+Con of say 8 for 20d6+48 base. Mythic and Improved Vital Strike for 60d6+142. You're already eating one burn for that alone. Maximize+1 burn. Quicken for another, NON-VITAl STRIKE, blast at 20d6+40.
Depending on whether you can get two Vital-Striked blasts at once, which I'd doubt, you're looking at either ~1130 damage, or 632+20d6+40 for about 760 damage. If it's Maximised still, it goes up by an average of about 40 damage. That's 800 damage at the cost of 6 burn. 800 damage at the cost of 120 damage to yourself that can't be healed at all, and you're got far less chance of hitting than other striker-role characters.
Meanwhile, other damage dealers are doing the exact same thing at no damage to themselves, while also having more skills, utility, hit points, higher chances of hitting, from higher ranges potentially, and with more ease of bypassing DR.
for the double vital strike this is how I got it
At 17th level, by accepting 4 points of burn, she can
use her kinetic blast twice with the same action, when
using a double blast, all additional enhancements apply to
both of the doubled blasts.
this also means that I can use a wand of true strike to enhance both of them the turn before to put my hit with a dex of 20 at 44 so 42 at 960ft (my miss chance is 25% at worst). which is beyond perception range of everything so they are flatfooted to me and can't retaliate if they survive. my heatlh after take all 240 burn damage is still at 263 (yeah kinetic body) which matches that of a fighter with a 20. con score at lvl 20. if i'm doing a 1100 damage why the hell do I care if it has DR it is not going to save it from dieing. about the only thing that has more hitpoints than me is a barbarian or a fighter/paladin tank, non of which are going to out nova me. Even with the Vital Strike houserule, it only manages to do comparable or more than a focused damage dealer in corner circumstances, and at great cost to itself. It also hits the burn-cap for the day near-instantly with it, and only gets one round of it. And after that it gets... nothing. At all. If it gets Vital Strike and the other fixes, since Mythic is normally disallowed despite it being the only thing that makes Vital Strike remotely worth taking, it could do up to about 120d6+40 or a bit more. Once per day, at the cost if a large chunk of it's health. Meanwhile, the other classes that can do damage can do the same exact thing for well over 10 rounds a day, and often at similar range or better.
The problem here is that the class doesn't even do seriously well if it gets favorable houserules. Even with things that aren't allowed in normal games, it still only manages something that's good in combat once per day. It gets one big shot, and then it limps along doing basically nothing for the rest of the time. It doesn't get skills to make up for it. It doesn't get utility abilities past a certain point because what little it DOES have are not honestly that useful.
Even if given pretty much the most favorable circumstance, it's still miles behind in literally every way.
Goblinsaurus the only time i would bother to hit something with that much damage is because it was the end boss or the party was in danger of a TPK if i didn't drop the thing in 2 rounds. for the most part i would shoot things for 360 damage (empowered composite blast 0-1 burn) which yes isn't that good but would let my fellow party member drop the thing when he/she hits it.
which makes me think that a interesting thing to add to metakinesis would be a true strike option for 1 or 2 burn, have it become available with empower or maximize. it would definitely help a kineticist hit things.
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From my larger review at http://www.5mwd.com/archives/2204
A psychic magic ranger that “shoots” rocks.They also seem to be the oft-requested Constitution-based class. This and the regularity of their blasts remind me a lot of the warlock class from D&D, especially the 3e version that has at-will magic blasts and gains abilities that shape and customize their blasts.
The class suffers from a pure combat focus. This is a DPR type class that blasts people with boulders or jets of fire. They have almost no skills (and a *tiny* skill list). They can’t become a skill monkey role like the face, the sage, the acrobat, or strongman. Despite likely having a high Dex (it’s typically their hit stat), they cannot train into Acrobatics. There is a healer power that can be taken, but it’s not ideal as it deals nonlethal damage in the process, so that’s another role they cannot fill.
Despite being able to fire gouts of flame at will the character has no mechanical ability to, say, heat water or light a campfire or generate torchlight. The aether (read telekinetic kineticist) can choose the Light Touch wild talent to used an amped up version of mage hand, but that comes at the expense of offensive ability, and there’s no regular mage hand equivalent. So the kineticist can hurl a 20 kg rock across a dungeon chamber but cannot levitate a 2 kg object slowly to their hand.
During the 2014 and Beyond panel at GenCon the catchphrase for Occult Adventures was “more Penny Dreadful, and less Professor X” (coined by a staff member from Obsidian Entertainment). Which makes the kineticist pretty darn ironic and it would feel very much at home on the X-men (along with the Ultimate Psionic‘s soulknife).
It feels like a 4th Edition D&D striker class complete with combat utility powers, the only difference is formatting.
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I think it would be kind of neat if kineticists got "dominate element" for the element of their choice for free.
It would give a pyro something to do when a fire elemental pops up, and it actually makes a lot of logical sense. If they can control fire, why can't they control a fire elemental?
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
So after reading through this class I have come to the conclusion that it is the closest any roleplaying game has come to the benders from avatar, and I love that.
ShakaUVM wrote: I think it would be kind of neat if kineticists got "dominate element" for the element of their choice for free.
It would give a pyro something to do when a fire elemental pops up, and it actually makes a lot of logical sense. If they can control fire, why can't they control a fire elemental?
IMHO it would be good if they got ability called Control element that allows them to control stuff made of their own element and it gets progressively stronger as the class lvls up (every few lvls) something like:
Terrakineticist can move small amounts of earth and the blast and defense is a part of that ability.
Aerokineticist can control the air and weather letting it create winds (not as a spell) and fire lightning
...
Telekineticist can move stuff with his/her mind ...
On a certain level it allows you to control an elemental if it fails its save but just its substance so it takes a full round action to control (basically you take control of it instead of yourself) as you progress you can control bigger elementals 1 medium counts as 2 small and so forth.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
So I just built a 3rd level Telekinetic for a playtest tomorrow. Ouch was that painful, being third level I gave him Light Touch and Finesse so that I could have a little utility beyond throwing things with my mind.
The concept I was going for was a character who is physically very weak, but a psychic powerhouse. Unfortunately being able to lift 15 lbs. with my mind at level 3 is hardly what I'd consider psychically strong.
I like the suggestions of automatically including some utility for each element.
So something like this maybe?
Aether: You may lift, push, drag or throw objects at the same range as your kinetic blasts, substituting your Constitution score for your strength score when you do so, you may not move more than a light load in this way. If you take 1 burn you may not move more than a medium load. If you take 2 burn you may not move more than a heavy load. You may do this for a number of minutes equal to your Con modifier, after which you must drop the items or pay 1 burn.
Artanthos wrote: Shiroi wrote: @Zwordsman - blade/whip/fist all say associated blast any. So to my knowledge you can use a composite blast with them.
you are correct on the lack of substance in a force blaster. You are also correct on the 1 form per blast limiter. Otherwise? Whip + Extended range. My god look at all those attacks of opportunity you just took by existing in my room.
Actually picking a whip as your weapon with elemental whip already gives a 15' reach and the ability to attack adjacent targets.
At 16th level greater kinetic form grants 15' reach, doubled to 30' if using a reach weapon. Kinetic blade means all squares are threatened.
As a point of curiosity: what is the reach of a huge creature using a whip? If you follow the size progression for normal attacks and reach attacks it should be 45', but I don't believe whips on large/huge creatures are specifically addressed by RAW. Actually, you only get 10' with Kinetic Whip, as it gives you the reach of a "reach weapon appropriate to your size" NOT the reach of the weapon you form with it. And you have to use Whip to threaten, as Blade doesn't last past the end of your turn (while Whip lasts until the beginning of your next one).
Not sure if anyone has caught this: Each of the energy types list their appropriate talents at the level they can take them (1st, 6th, 10th, 16th). But the Aether Wild Talents are listed as the level of the Wild Talent (1st, 4th, 6th, 9th).
The talents themselves have the correct pre-req levels but I thought that was something that should be fixed before I have an overly insistent player tell me that they're allow to take them at the wrong levels since they're listed that way in one section and not the other. :P
are there cryokinectics and electrokinetics if not there should be
swifthunter420 wrote: are there cryokinectics and electrokinetics if not there should be Hydrokinetics and Aerokinetics, respectively.
I second the fix in formatting and bring up spell levels equivalents as a balance point.
If we decide that x spell level is available at x character level, then there should be 9 groups of talents, not 5. 10 counting 0 level effects.
With that in mind, I happily propose this fix to the burn system to balance it comfortably. When all Talents are asigned an SLA Spell Level, and are only available at the given level, assigning burn becomes a scalable level advantage over other caster classes. You may accept one point of burn to use a talent which you do not currently possess which is at least one equivalent spell level lower than the highest level talent you may currently access. You may accept two points of burn to use a talent of the same equivalent spell level as the highest level of talent you currently possess. You may accept three points of burn to access a power one equivalent spell level higher than the highest spell level you currently possess. You may accept four burn to access a talent with an equivalent spell level two higher than the highest level of spell you normally have access to.
Some talents may offer scalable effects, these talents will include an effective spell level for the advanced abilities to determine burn cost for these enhancements.
You may use a move action to gather energy from around yourself, reducing the total burn of a given spell by 1.
Burn max and damage may need to be adjusted accordingly. This allows you to increase versatility slightly by using a trick you are unfamiliar with but should easily do with very little burn. Then increase versatility by a lot for a moderate amount of burn. Increasing power and versatility by jumping to a whole new spell level is dangerous to your health. Using a move action now means you can use older skills that any competent bender should be able to access, even if you chose not to learn them as talents, for free. This is important I feel for the fluff of the class. A spell caster normally knows how to do only the tricks they practice repeatedly. A proper kineticist should be able to do anything with their mind that they can imagine, provided it is within their power level. Using your mind in a way you aren't familiar with (versatility options for a talent of your level) can result in fighting your own mind a bit and wasting more energy than normal. So this all ties in well with the "my brain does this with no outside help, so with a bit of concentration I can about do anything I want".
Now the best part is that you can balance the spell levels to other classes easily. I can keep up with a sorcerer, with the option to get ahead at the cost of health. I may be one dice or so of damage behind, but get unlimited spells per day to do it with.
Something to consider:
Expanded element is required (either by focusing on one or choosing another) in order to the class advance in damage. Its, then, mandatory. If a choice is required of class, it should be a static feature, freeing the talent to other optional customization powers.
The same is true for element manipulation. It should be a feature of the class. The witches hex prehensile hair is a good example of a small field of manipulation.
We could have something like this:
Expanded Element: At 6th level the kineticist chooses another element to control or deepens his knowledge of the same element. At 12th and 18th level he may choose another element or expand his understanding of a previous element.
Element Manipulation: At 1st level the kineticist gains a limited control of his element. His power may manipulate his chosen element, or general unattended objects (if he's a telekineticist) as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to his Constitution score. His manipulation power has a reach of 5 feet, that increases by 5 feet at 4th level and each 4 levels beyond 4th (to a maximum of 30 feet), and he can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of damage. This damage increases to 1d6 at 4th level, to 1d8 at 10th level and 2d6 at 16th level. His manipultion power can manipulate his element (or objects if aether)as dexterously as a human hand.
Heladriell wrote: Something to consider:
Expanded element is required (either by focusing on one or choosing another) in order to the class advance in damage. Its, then, mandatory. If a choice is required of class, it should be a static feature, freeing the talent to other optional customization powers.
The same is true for element manipulation. It should be a feature of the class. The witches hex prehensile hair is a good example of a small field of manipulation.
We could have something like this:
Expanded Element: At 6th level the kineticist chooses another element to control or deepens his knowledge of the same element. At 12th and 18th level he may choose another element or expand his understanding of a previous element.
Element Manipulation: At 1st level the kineticist gains a limited control of his element. His power may manipulate his chosen element, or general unattended objects (if he's a telekineticist) as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to his Constitution score. His manipulation power has a reach of 5 feet, that increases by 5 feet at 4th level and each 4 levels beyond 4th (to a maximum of 30 feet), and he can use it as a secondary natural attack that deals 1d4 points of damage. This damage increases to 1d6 at 4th level, to 1d8 at 10th level and 2d6 at 16th level. His manipultion power can manipulate his element (or objects if aether)as dexterously as a human hand.
Heladriell, very awesome indeed.
IMO, moving the discussion from DPR to Class power spikes (at what point in the Kineticist's career does he or she gain X ability), breaks the endless circle of preaching to the converted. Most people agree that the Kineticist falls short in too many areas compared to what can be achieved by other classes.
I like the 3 auto expansions. It gives full mastery over two elements or a full Avatar feel with less focus.
The manipulation of your element I feel can be more powerful, simply because it should be fairly clear that a geokineticist is lifting far more than a normal load to do normal attacks. Even regular TK gets 100/lbs per level with one talent.
I have a prior that lists 1 5ftsq per two levels, increases how much control (speed/refined dexterity/et cetera) you can exert on said amount of matter at once. This scales quantity and quality of your out of battle utility. I also kicked in prestidigitation (element limited) as a constant effect. So you can play with water Fushigi balls, or juggle rocks in a figure 8.
Shiroi wrote: Perhaps a more general question than that of purely a Kineticist concern... Mozilla, the pyrokineticist kitsune, uses Fox Form. He then uses Elemental Body IV from the Greater Kinetic Form. Presumably, the forms are not compatible and one or the other template must dissappear. This then makes the extra +4 to hit from being a small fox dissappear. Thus the only significant mechanical benefit to being a firefox is lost if you use one of the best powers a Pyro gets. Just making sure I have that correct, since someone earlier was saying a size small fox would make an excellent kineticist.
And yes, I'm assuming a feat that allows blasts with no hands.
Elemental Body is good, but not as good for a ranged kineticist as you would think. The dexterity bonus is generally canceled out by the size penalty to attack that you would get. The only real benefit from elemental body would be the Constitution bonus and higher AC.
@matrix dragon
And therein lies my problem with the ability, as awesome as it has the potential to be becoming huge is a major limiting factor. I'd like to see them add wording to maintain your existing size. I'd give an extra burn for it as an option, even.
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I think that in regard to fire and air we could convert 1 pound to 1 cubic foot (although not the real weight) in regard to manipulation power.
@Morzadian: I agree, we could provide better resources right now to the designers by suggesting utility powers and better customization. The power curve is already well explored, and the interaction of the class with out of combat situations needs a lot of work. The final product abilities must be meaningful and of a simple elegant design.
Leaving expanded element as an option instead of mandatory is better IMO. It may be the best option from a power stand point but when we get more talents to choose from some players may want to take them instead at 7th and maybe not pick up expanded till later.
I look at it like Natural Spell for the Druid, yeah you probably should take it as soon as possible but if you really want to try something different have fun.
This may have been answered already but how do feats such as point blank shot and rapid shot etc function with the blasts, or do they not function at all?
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DomonKashu wrote: Leaving expanded element as an option instead of mandatory is better IMO. It may be the best option from a power stand point but when we get more talents to choose from some players may want to take them instead at 7th and maybe not pick up expanded till later.
I look at it like Natural Spell for the Druid, yeah you probably should take it as soon as possible but if you really want to try something different have fun.
What about an automatic Expanded Element, with the option to take a Wild Talent instead?
Like, Expanded Element at 6, 12, and 18, but you can choose to, instead, take an additional Wild Talent of your choice.
Tels wrote: DomonKashu wrote: Leaving expanded element as an option instead of mandatory is better IMO. It may be the best option from a power stand point but when we get more talents to choose from some players may want to take them instead at 7th and maybe not pick up expanded till later.
I look at it like Natural Spell for the Druid, yeah you probably should take it as soon as possible but if you really want to try something different have fun.
What about an automatic Expanded Element, with the option to take a Wild Talent instead?
Like, Expanded Element at 6, 12, and 18, but you can choose to, instead, take an additional Wild Talent of your choice. Why not having both? Expanded element represents the natural advancement in the class core mechanic, just like reaching a new spell level represents the wizards advancement. It's already optional to chose a different element, the feature as it is can deepen the understanding of the current element or try another.
The number of wild talents, IMO, should be increased and divided into separate pools, for utility and for blasts.
Tels wrote: DomonKashu wrote: Leaving expanded element as an option instead of mandatory is better IMO. It may be the best option from a power stand point but when we get more talents to choose from some players may want to take them instead at 7th and maybe not pick up expanded till later.
I look at it like Natural Spell for the Druid, yeah you probably should take it as soon as possible but if you really want to try something different have fun.
What about an automatic Expanded Element, with the option to take a Wild Talent instead?
Like, Expanded Element at 6, 12, and 18, but you can choose to, instead, take an additional Wild Talent of your choice. Taking expanded element or a wild talent would be what we have now anyway.
However, getting it earlier is a good idea, I suggested level 6 instead of 7 a couple pages ago.
Still holding out hope we get more early choices as it stands other than water they have to take universal powers just to fill out their choices for levels 1-4.
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