And who said you have to run past a melee type to get to a caster? Implayed with a Barb with two levels of fleet and you might be amazed how useful being able to ove 50 feet a turn is on an open board. Not to mention having mobs that fly, tunnel or having one of the mobs specialize inarchery or be a gunslinger.
My Goblins love blunderbusses as they make lots of noise smoke and splatter blood all over.
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The problem with this is that many of the things that can look like caster are also melee monsters (clerics, druids, summoners [yay DD as a Su ability!], bards, magi, ect).So, things that look like casters. Two (four actually since you didn't list oracle or shaman) are also full casters. One may as well be a full caster, and one is a major force multiplier. The only classes that can look like casters that shouldn't have absolute priority over all non or 4 level casters are the magus and monk. And the only reason the magus doesn't also take absolute priority is that he can sack his attack modifier in spell combat to pretty much guarantee successful casting.
Monks are regional and magi are rare. All non-CRB classes are intended to be rare.
Don't let the wizard or sorcerer or arcanist cast haste becomes don't let the summoner or bard cast haste or the cleric or oracle cast blessing of fervor. The logic is the same. A buffed enemy will hurt you for more than the AoO.
Taking a few AoOs and then fighting the front line after the casters are gone is better than exchanging full attacks with a front line benefiting from haste or blessing of fervor.
The point you are missing though is the the OP mentioned charging though a bunch of martials and biting a few AoO to get a hit in the "caster dude" (i.e. the wizard, the "justification" used in teh OP is the view of a wizard, not a cleric or druid [i.e. doing horrble things to them after they die and stuff like that]) is meta-gamey or stupid because after "Mr. Big Bad Evil Monster" charges in, expecting a squishy wizard, he ends up with a face full of Cause Critical Wounds/Harm/Claw and Teeth Druid/Very Angry Eidolon (the ability to dimension door next to the summoner is stupid nice) instead, unless he meta-games and knows that "mr guy in robes" is actually NOT a wizard and instead a cleric because "reasons."
Now what I am NOT saying is that they shouldn't do ANTI-CASTER TACTICS like spread out, have archers/spellcasters disrupt enemy spellcasters, and put pressure on CASTERS. That is just solid tactics. But charging through a guy with a stupid huge weapon with deadly skill to target the "squishy guy in the back" because "reasons" is illogical and quite frankly, dumb.
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I think this problem may present a solution to another problem!
People say that super defense builds can just get ignored. But let's dress our turtle monk in a wizard robe and hat, and take the Qinggong power Scorching Ray to seal the perception.
Blast someone at the start of combat, and then draw aggro for the rest of the fight, pretending to be struggling to cast further spells as the enemies try to rip you apart. Put some ranks in Perform (Acting) to make it look good, it's class for monks.
All that's going to do is convince people that you're a non-threatening wizard with bad spells and unusual kung-fu skills. :P
Most of my recent battles have taken place indoors, with ten foot wide corridors. It's pretty unusual for there to be any opportunity to get past the martials.
Why would they think you have kung-fu skills if you're just turtling the beat down? It's pretty much all Dex, Wis, and Dodge bonuses, they're hitting air. You can make it seem like you're just getting lucky, that's a pretty common trope (especially among drunken masters).
And if the monsters hold up placards that say "4/10" because you used Scorching Ray instead of Glitterdust, well, I don't know what to say. Scorching Ray is a fairly iconic arcane spell.
Because you're using martial arts to defend yourself, especially if you're a tanky monk, since you're actually deflecting attacks with your body when you use Crane Wing.
They don't have to know anything about wizards to know that you're not being effective. When you spend your action to fire a laser beam that does as much damage as a 1st level martial, you're not going to draw very much attention.
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My players.
They didn't attack the caster first.
And long story short, that is why the paladin died.
But to be fair, untill this point casters had been shit,
But this one used buffs and debuffs instead of magic missile.
So the paladin died, by a AoO.
His name was Jean Le Batard, and he was marvelous.
(/rant)
-also, mages don't wear dresses in my games.
on both sides of the screen.
Mages often have abjurations shielding them, which is the image you can sell if you do Crane Wing something (assuming the total defense deflection, because otherwise it's just a Dodge bonus). Their attack got deflected by something when it should have hit, how's that not magic? They'd have to Detect Magic and concentrate long enough to Spellcraft to confirm it's not a spell.
Your laser beams are doing as much damage as any caster's would when you use it. Do you wait until the mage uses earth-shattering magic before you decide to take him out? Because if you do, it's too late. If we're accepting the topic premise of every monster wanting to geek the mage, I'm pretty sure demonstrating the ability to shoot lasers should suffice.
Now what I am NOT saying is that they shouldn't do ANTI-CASTER TACTICS like spread out, have archers/spellcasters disrupt enemy spellcasters, and put pressure on CASTERS. That is just solid tactics. But charging through a guy with a stupid huge weapon with deadly skill to target the "squishy guy in the back" because "reasons" is illogical and quite frankly, dumb.
Quite frankly, it all depends on the setting and the enemy. In settings where magic users are common, their power and the tactics necessary to neutralize them will be known. Military or para-military groups may even give their platoon or squad leaders some rudimentary training or items to help them identify magic users.
Composition and especially discipline of the enemy faced is also an important consideration. Well-disciplined units can do some amazing things, and get their men to knowingly sacrifice their lives in the process. Ever read about the battle of Waterloo? The British infantry came under sustained bombardment for a while and were ordered to hold their position. A man could see the cannonballs coming at that time and theoretically duck them, but ducking a cannonball in the first rank meant the guy in the second rank would get it full force, so the men stood there grimly and just took it. This is not a joke. A drilled and disciplined enemy (even just mooks) is a terrifying thing. I don't get the impression that many DMs actually use quasi-military organizations as villains (maybe for lack of military training, themselves), but they can be very, very dangerous (esp for casters) and believable opponents without breaking immersion or CR guidelines.
Yes. Your laser beams are doing as much as the non-blasting-focused mage's. And the mage's suck too. Scorching ray is a weak spell. A real wizard that's throwing scorching rays around isn't going to attract attention either, because they're not accomplishing a whole lot.
And I'm pretty sure your flowing, practiced, purely physical deflection does not look like a spell.
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It doesn't matter what ANY player thinks, it only really matters what the DM says the enemy thinks.
Of course, that can lead to hurt feelings and lack of players.
I like the different tactics that have popped up in this thread. At high level in particular, some of these should be used. Misdirection and bluff are almost essential to high level parties, because many situations arise where the enemy are sending attacks to probe the party and assess their abilities. Nearly all the APs I've read and run have baddies that do this at higher levels.
Hiding the caster and dressing the Martials in illusionary outfits is very clever.
Unfortunately, it's only as clever as your DM allows through his own actions.
I've heard lots of "meta gaming" getting thrown around in this thread. My group appear to be lucky in that we don't allow metagame knowledge to rule our decisions. Sometimes it means we aren't doing the optimal thing, but it also means bluffs and switch tactic work for us and against us.
It seems for many groups this isn't the same though.
The standard fantasy trope of "Big guy with sword and shield fights the enemy blade-to-blade, while the dude dressed in robes stands way the hell back and casts magic spells at it" doesn't really make much sense.
Anybody with any degree of intelligence should default to "kill the most dangerous enemy first," which would be the caster. Also, many creatures would default to "kill the most fragile enemy first," which would be the guy without any armor.
So, with the exception of Int 1-2 creatures that don't know any better, why aren't the casters (especially arcane casters) the very first target? (Note that this doesn't apply when obvious strategic concerns and/or an irrational hatred of some other character or type of hero make them a lower priority).
Why don't enemies just eat the attack of opportunity for passing the fighter in order to get a pounce+rake combo or full two-handed Power Attack on the guy who will wreck them utterly (reverse gravity, flesh to stone, sleep, color spray, create pit, suggestion, dominate person, stinking cloud, ray of exhaustion, slow) with a single standard action?
I'd say there's a degree of meta-gameyness in that perspective.
Perhaps the mooks are hoping someone else will take on the big bad wizard, someone better equipped than a sword or axe. Perhaps most foes better understand the immediate threat steel offers than the esoteric potential threat that a full caster might have. Perhaps not everyone knows the difference on sight between a partial caster and a full. Perhaps its a case of 'my mind tells me the pasty, frail-looking guy way in the back is the most dangerous, but my heart tells me this 6'7" Barbarian right in front of me with a massive sword he's trying to impale me with is the one I need to deal with".
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Because you're using martial arts to defend yourself, especially if you're a tanky monk, since you're actually deflecting attacks with your body when you use Crane Wing.
They don't have to know anything about wizards to know that you're not being effective. When you spend your action to fire a laser beam that does as much damage as a 1st level martial, you're not going to draw very much attention.
But see, that is a completely contrary to what you said earlier in the OP with the whole "A smart enemy should ALWAYS go after the caster because they can do horrible things to you after death ect. ect. ect."
So now you are revising your statement to "they should only attack casters who are making themselves obvious targets by manipulating reality"?
See this is why I was saying your example is meta-gamey. Either it falls apart because everything becomes stupid and can easily fall for a trap (the monk example) or you just start meta-gaming and it doesn't fall for it because "reasons."
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Yes. Your laser beams are doing as much as the non-blasting-focused mage's. And the mage's suck too. Scorching ray is a weak spell. A real wizard that's throwing scorching rays around isn't going to attract attention either, because they're not accomplishing a whole lot.
And I'm pretty sure your flowing, practiced, purely physical deflection does not look like a spell.
But see! That is you meta-gaming! Unless your opponents are other casters, it would make nosense for most other characters to know what the most optimum choice in spells would be. A fighter that doesn't know from personal experiance from a wizard buddy of his telling him that "this spell is weak, this is the spell you should really be looking for" would have no idea that the monk is using a subpar spell and therefor, not worth his time. He would just see "Oh look! I know that people don't normally shoot laser beams! That must obviously be magic! Therefore he is a magic user! Oh! And He seems to not be wearing armor, and I know from my rudimentary knowledge that Armor tends to interfere with wizards and their lot, so this guy must be an arcane dude!" And with that knowledge, he would probably then prioritize the "caster" by your logic.
Unless you are saying that enemies should only prioritize casters who make big showy effects that obviously draw attention to themselves? If that is the case, then there would be no reason for the enemy to target a caster doing very subtle spells like subtle buffs (i.e. not turning your martial into a dragon for Brown Fur Transmuters) or subtle battlefield control spells (Dominate anyone?)
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"I think he'd rather cast a translocation spell between your blood and a vat of acid while sustaining just enough of your consciousness in a state of unlife so that you'd be able to experience the impossible pain of it before being driven insane as a fully aware yet dead corpse rotting in the cold ground forever..."
~Black Mage
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Then compare what an unoptimized character is going to be doing to what another unoptimized character is going to be doing. Comparing a fighter doing what he's best at to a wizard doing what they're the worst at is not a valuable use of anyone's time.
If we are going to optimize, damage is irrelevant.
Stand Still + Combat Reflexes removes an opponents ability to bum rush past melee.
I'm so glad that the smart attackers only target the people without armor.
My summoner (yes, with a nice scarf over her head) in her mithral shirt and spear really appreciates it. Now she just needs a monk to join her group. I'm sure the alchemist's, wizards and sorcerers with Arcane Armor Training, and others who can cast and use light armor also appreciate this.
At low level, the reach cleric or barbarian with a two handed weapon is more of a threat than the wizard or sorcerer. Please do draw AoO from that reach cleric, it is what they are built for.
At higher levels, it becomes much more difficult to know just by looking at them who can do magic.
If you are going to start targeting those in light armor then a lot of barbarians and rangers are likely to use that as well.
It really isn't as easy as it used to be to tell which in the party are the spell casters before they start unleashing their magic.
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This kind of happened to me last night. The bad guy was surrounded by a Magus with lightning in his hand, an armored magus with a spear, a rogue with poison blades and my Half Orc combat Shaman with a giant machete... and the bad guy opts to try and hunt down my Spirit animal. Really? 4 dudes with scary weapons in your face and you want to hunt down a random bird?
Edit: Also, an Int of 10 is suppose to represent an 'average' intelligence. If you want examples of average intelligence, watch the nightly news. Those people being interviewed on the street are the average. ;)
As one who is in favor of having intelligent mobs target caster.
Yes there are times when Mobs will make a mistake and go after the Monk in robes and leave the summoner in Chain alone. So perhaps I should say intelligent mobs go after those they think are casters.
But there are many times the mobs are not only going to know who the caster are but even type and the caster name. After the second battle with a group of Drow, dont you think they would pass on the information about your group? Dont you think a Bandit Chief would have contacts in the nearby villages telling him who is trying to collect the bounty on his head? Perhaps the Lich King sent those zombies and ghoul to see what the party was made of and was scrying the fight from a distant.
I think there are actually several issues here.
First, I certainly think that an intelligent opponent should act intelligently. If an intelligent opponent is aware of a character's capacities, he should (all else being equal) act to eliminate the most serious threat. In many cases, that's the caster. If he's not aware of a character's capacities, he will make appropriate judgments based what he sees and hears.
However, that's not what a lot of people on this thread seem to be suggesting. They're suggesting near-suicidal charges through a whirling wall of steel to make sure that the caster goes down, no matter what the personal cost is. There was a suggestion to sunder the wizard's spell book, which will do nothing to eliminate the most serious threat.
And that's not intelligence, that's fanaticism.
An ordinary orc will certainly try to kill the wizard before the wizard kills him. An ordinary orc will probably not sacrifice his own life to make sure his squadmates survive. An ordinary orc will certainly not sacrifice his own life and that of his squadmates to make sure that the BBEG at the other end of the dungeon will have an easier time of it tomorrow.
But see, that is a completely contrary to what you said earlier in the OP with the whole "A smart enemy should ALWAYS go after the caster because they can do horrible things to you after death ect. ect. ect."
So now you are revising your statement to "they should only attack casters who are making themselves obvious targets by manipulating reality"?
See this is why I was saying your example is meta-gamey. Either it falls apart because everything becomes stupid and can easily fall for a trap (the monk example) or you just start meta-gaming and it doesn't fall for it because "reasons."
Uh, I'm not the OP, dude.
How is "wow, that guy didn't do anything important, let's not focus on him" metagaming? They don't have to know a thing about wizards or what spells are good to know that the caster tried to do a thing and it didn't accomplish anything, not really making him a threat.
Additionally, a group with someone knowledgeable of spellcasting in it will be able to advise their allies. Spellcraft checks to identify spells as they're cast aren't all that difficult (DC 15 + spell level means they scale very slowly, and aren't always at their maximum), and Knowledge (arcana) can identify spell effects. Magical support isn't going to be in every group, of course, but it's worth noting the impact it will have when it's available.
If we are going to optimize, damage is irrelevant.
Stand Still + Combat Reflexes removes an opponents ability to bum rush past melee.
Damage is relevant. Options for a martial to stop someone from moving are to trip them with an AoO and to use Stand Still. Stand Still doesn't scale well into the late game (unless you're a barbarian or maybe lore warden) since it doesn't benefit from most available CMB boosters. Tripping stops being as useful as average enemy sizes go up and more and more things fly (or hover over the ground, as the case my be, to be immune to tripping). Both are very useful at low levels and the earlier portions of the midgame, but slowly function less and less often as the game progresses.
I'll have enemies go for an identified caster if it's practical - i.e., it'll actually accomplish more than the caster using a few wand charges once the fight is over.
Unless the enemies are stupid. In my RoW game I had andrazku demons (servants of Kotshtchie, whose religious commandments include "kill all witches") functionally killing themselves trying to get at the PC witch (which the party totally took advantage of once they realized what was happening). A witch doesn't have a fraction of the defenses a wizard gets, but trying to kill one with standard action attacks before the rest of the party happens to the assailant(s) still doesn't end well for the attackers.
The level range where bumrushing the caster might actually drop the caster is about the same range as when AoOs will probably kill the bumrusher.
Archers and enemy spellcasters are a whole different matter, but this thread seems to be focused on suicidal rushes by melee brutes to get at casters.
The nature of full attack v. standard attack means that you're more likely to put down the foe that's already in arm's reach. If your options are do, say 35 damage to the caster and not drop the caster, or do 105 to the melee and possibly drop the melee, then it's probably better to take down the guy who's gonna slice you to ribbons on your turn if you don't stop him.
If an enemy doesn't have something to make that caster's life immediately and severely inconvenient (like stunning or grappling), then eating an AoO and only getting a standard attack on the caster merely earns you the undivided attention of the caster and everyone who was, until that time, fighting something other than you.
I.e., a swift and pointless death.
Now, if the casters are easy to get to for whatever reason, then yeah, bad guys go for them.
Moving and taking a standard action attack is no way to pin down a spellcaster. You won't accomplish anything that way, they'll just five foot step out and cast anyway, unless you have exceptional reach. At low levels they should be tripping casters (you only provoke from the person you're attacking, and even then they still need a weapon- 1d3-2 spiked gauntlets aren't that impressive for damage) to prevent them from five foot stepping away, and at mid-to-higher levels likely grappling (because they're flying) or throwing special abilities such as a focused gaze attack at them (if it's an option and they've got freedom of movement, because of course they do). You don't need feats to trip or grapple, even less so if your opponent cannot take effective AoOs against you and is one of a few classes notorious for bad CMD.
I know the encounter you're talking about- the andrazkus would have been much better served by activating righteous might and grabbing the caster, releasing them and full attacking them at +9/+9/+9 for two (1d8+11)s and a (1d8+11 plus 1d6 cold and 1d4 bleed). Or spamming their breath weapon and hit and running. Or using their Powerful Charge with righteous might to slam for +11 (2d8+16). And with their 1,550 GP each, probably equipped with either a good bow and greatsword and studded leather, or studded leather, a greatsword, and a quickrunner's shirt or something like that (outsiders are proficient with martial weapons, and masterwork studded leather has no armor check penalty). That would put their routine at +10/+5/+5 for two (3d6+16/19-20)s and a (1d8+5 plus 1d6 cold and 1d4 bleed), reducing their full attack potential unless they drop the sword, but making their standard action respectable and giving them something to do against flying foes (shooting for 1d8+5 or 2d6+7).
Attacking as a standard action is very rarely a good choice past early levels- especially if you're a monster with natural weapons. And if you really don't have any way to do something valuable after moving (which is unlikely, since monsters have good CMB scores, but possible once freedom of movement and constant flying become realities for casters), then yeah, slug it out with the frontliners.
Eh, since we're discussing how I ran a pack of demonic thugs - I added advanced andrazkus to many encounters that didn't normally have them, and upped the numbers in encounters that did (mythic game with 5 20 pt buy PCs, so nastier encounters is par for the course).
The very first encounter with the things involved like 3 advanced andrazkus and 6 normal andrazkus, all with righteous might already up, followed by waves of more andrazkus warping in. The party (including the witch) took quite a thrashing and were burning mythic power every round just to keep up. Later waves of andrazkus didn't have righteous might because it only last six rounds and they'd already expended it elsewhere making a significant distraction.
In later fights, the party knew what to expect from the creatures, and an andrazku that spent its action turning on righteous might got promptly exploded/confused/etc. (Aside: Andrazku have awesomely bad will saves. In my massive andrazku encounter described above, it ended with the party watching a pair of confused andrazku beat each other to death.)
I usually only fiddle around with routine monster equipment when I'm experimenting. Giving monsters cheap gear can certainly make them nastier though.
[Also, giving like 16 enemies greatswords for the explicit purpose of instantly exploding a single 7th level character would have crossed a line, I think =P The andrazku sticking to slam attacks made the encounter scary without it being instantly lethal.]
Heh, The quickrunner shirt actually got vetoed at my games ("It's 1,000 gold item that let's you instantly kill an opponent once a day. Nah, not allowed.") but that would definitely be a go-to item if I was trying to cheese the PCs.
Edit: Changed my first sentence.
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Really? People are discussing Pathfinder and murdering casters and no-one mentioned how overpowered longbows are?
Get more longbows. Alternatively, get more grenade-lobbin' Alchemists, they reject your caster's buffs and substitute their bomb.
Also, just for the sake of argument, how many games/sessions have you played in the last 3 months, and how many of them were above lvl, say, 10? Just asking.
This has been a very weirdly focused discussion =P
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Damage is relevant. Options for a martial to stop someone from moving are to trip them with an AoO and to use Stand Still. Stand Still doesn't scale well into the late game (unless you're a barbarian or maybe lore warden) since it doesn't benefit from most available CMB boosters. Tripping stops being as useful as average enemy sizes go up and more and more things fly (or hover over the ground, as the case my be, to be immune to tripping). Both are very useful at low levels and the...
The higher level the caster, the less likely your bum rush is to pose a danger. Higher level casters will have layered defenses more than capable of handling single attacks.
Really? People are discussing Pathfinder and murdering casters and no-one mentioned how overpowered longbows are?
Get more longbows. Alternatively, get more grenade-lobbin' Alchemists, they reject your caster's buffs and substitute their bomb.
Also, just for the sake of argument, how many games/sessions have you played in the last 3 months, and how many of them were above lvl, say, 10? Just asking.
you can add Muskets in the hand of gunsslingers and crossbow in the hands of crossbow archtype to the list of thing to go after caster.You dont need to run through a bunch of melee types to play wak a wizard.
Ah. Mythic rules. I was assuming standard Reign of Winter, which would be 4 7th level PCs with 15 point buy up against 3 andrazkus (each of which as a 25% chance of being able to call in another andrazku).
Mythic does tend to dramatically increase the output and mobility of martial characters. It's damn near close to impossible to run from a Champion (or Dual-Path) with Impossible Speed and Fleet Warrior, and Mythic Power Attack inflates damage numbers to "It's dead, don't bother adding them together." Going after the wizards kinda goes out the window when every member of the party is capable of obliterating a level appropriate foe in one round. :P
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Yeah, "kill the caster first!" sort of falls by the wayside when the entire party is catastrophically dangerous.
Which I guess applies to the general discussion at hand - if other people in the party have demonstrated themselves to be significant threats, the caster usually falls lower in the priority list.
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Again, this is just tactics 101. Ever play Warcraft III?This isn't Warcraft. It's PPathfinder. In Pathfinder each creature has a desire to live. They will act like living beings rather than tactical simulations.
As someone who has actually studied and trained combat troops on tactics and strategies I can assure you that there is not a single best move option. Each situation is different.
If you only see Pathfinder as a tactical simulator then you could be missing out on some of the best parts of the game. I prefer to have a wide variety of situations to deal with. This is especially true with combat.
Hey Bob, long time no see. ^_^
This isn't Warcraft. It's PPathfinder. In Pathfinder each creature has a desire to live. They will act like living beings rather than tactical simulations.
Which is why you attack the threat in whatever situation it is. In most situations that is going to be the wizard/medusa/rakshasa/whatever. The reason is because those are the threats that are going to weigh heavily on your entire group, risk putting you down quickly, or are going to function as power multipliers for the rest of the group.
The threat in this case could be a bard. Do you stand there duking it out toe to toe with the martial, or do you take the AoO and go for the bard that's buffing the heck out of him/her?
In Warcraft, do you stand and duke it out with the melee, or do you go after the healers (who are competent in WoW) and ranged sabatours / damagers? Thing is, martials are good at killing if you give them the full-attack, but a single AoO isn't nearly so bad.
Nicos still never said how dumb someone has to be before he thinks it'd be in character to take an AoO from some undead beastie to strike at a nearby medusa, because some people just want to dodge the real issue.
The real issue being, yes, it's perfectly natural to "geek the mage". If I had to choose what was the real threat on a battlefield: the guy with the sword, or the guy who flings poo-turned-napalm, I'm going after the napalm guy. Will that always be an option? No. If it is an option, however, it's probably a smart decision.
A single AoO or even AoO->move+1 hit will never be as dangerous as the standard action (or even non-action) of a specialized threat (IE - a spellcaster's ability to change combat dramatically, or a medusa's gaze, etc). The system just isn't built around single powerful attacks, so AoOs get weeny fast, and the people who are going to be rushing past other martials to gnab the wizard or medusa in the back are going to be front-liners themselves, which means lots of AC and HP, to two main deterrants to AoOs (seriously, AC is not that difficult to get up).
If you only see Pathfinder as a tactical simulator then you could be missing out on some of the best parts of the game. I prefer to have a wide variety of situations to deal with. This is especially true with combat.
1. Talking about a tactical aspect of a tactical game does not equate with seeing the game as a whole as a tactical simulator, anymore so than learning good tactics in a classic final fantasy game turns those games into Chess.
2. Combat is very varied in d20, especially with Pathfinder. The sheer quantity of enemies and such that you have to potentially deal with, combined with the near infinite combinations, combined with the infinite different terrains and/or environments that you could have to deal with, finally collecting with the random number generation of the dice and turn to turn decisions means no combat will ever be exactly the same. However, it is indeed possible to make informed decisions, and again, I maintain that if you have to choose between "risk an AoO try to murder the medusa/mage/multiplier/AoE-bomber and become a lawn ornament/get turned into a toad/watch their monster grow/get devastated with AoE damage and/or chip damage" then that better be some really big fuzzy monster to make you think twice about that (the other alternative is get the heck out of dodge, or find some other way to ignore the fuzzy monster while striking at the real threat).
I'm rather partial to ranged weapons for these sorts of things of course.
And a standard action to hit a caster is hardly enough to kill him, and now you will be probably be flanked, full attacked adn the caster will probably still cast.
If it's just a single attack (IE - no pounce, no vital strike, no smite evil, no instant enemy) you're pressing your offense against a foe who has no real choice but to go into evasive mode. See, while you, being a meat-shield yourself can survive quite a few rounds against your fellow meat-shields, most high-priority targets aren't so fortunate (unless they are clerics and druids, in which case they might just tank you and laugh at you, but you wouldn't have prioritized getting them into melee like you would a wizard or some other critter). This means your foe absolutely must spend some actions to get the heck out of dodge, which means fewer actions spent laying waste to your party (see, this is you, the martial winning, muahahaha).
Now unless the VIP enemy's meatbag buddies grossly outclass you, then they are actually the least of your worries. Seriously, unless you're facing enemies far, far above your weight class, or even-leveled with PC-WBL, you have little to fear from other meatshields speedbumps.
Let's take a party of 9th level PCs vs a CR...12 encounter (APL+3, AKA Epic, the highest the core rulebook accounts for). Our encounter will consist of 3 heroic classed NPCs (the VIP [sorcerer], a meatshield [barbarian], and support [let's do druid]), all 10th level with NPC gear.
Our hypothetical party probably consists of something similar to:
1-2 competent meat-tanks [barbarian, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger]
1-2 VIP [sorcerer, wizard]
1-2 Support [bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard]
Now assuming we're talking about a competent meat-tank, we're going to assume that s/he is going to gear up for their job. That means investing in novelties like armor and shields and crazy stuff like that. At 46,000 gp WBL, that means your meat-tank probably has a nice +3 armor (like +3 mithral full plate), +3 shield, +2 natural, +2 deflection, +3 dex, +1 insight, looking something like:
+3 mithral plate: 19,500 gp
+3 light or heavy shield: 9,150 gp + cost of shield
+1 insight bonus to AC: 5,000 gp
+1 deflection to AC: 2,000 gp
+1 natural to AC: 2,000 gp
Leaving 8,350 gp for some trimmings (like a couple of +1 weapons, potions/oils, etc).
Estimated AC is something in the range of:
Armor = +12
Shield = +4-5
Misc = +3
Dex = +3
Total = 32-33
This is of course assuming that your party support and/or yourself are too lazy to craft some really shwag gear for yourself, or too lazy to buff you with stuff like shield of faith or barkskin and so forth. It's also assuming you're not pulling emergency tactics like drinking high-CL potions (as might be called for in a really serious fight). It also isn't counting buffs like haste! :P
Your speed should be around 30 even in the armor (if a barbarian or ranger) due to either fast movement or longstrider, and if your VIP or support doesn't suck, you're probably going to be hasted really quick, so getting around the field shouldn't be too difficult. If you're a cleric or druid, you're either prancing around with effortless armor or you're a bear so win/win there too (druid-meat-tank is actually obscenely mobile and prone to pouncing and mauling poor hapless enemy VIPs).
Now you're a ****-mothering meat-tank, which means that offense is built into your class. That +9 BAB and various class features and/or feats (rage, smites, divine bonds, buff spells, animal companions, power attack, etc) means you're quite deadly to most enemies who aren't also ****-mothering meat-tanks. That includes...most of the bestiary actually, including most VIP targets.
So let's take that 10th level meat-tank NPC that's guarding the opposing VIP. You know, that guy who's going to be making that scary AoO. AoOs...so...scary! >~<
Well he's looking at a mighty +10 to hit from BAB, then about a +3 from ability score, then a +1 enhancement from a weapon (probably masterwork), and then whatever he can scrape up in class features and/or feats. That means that he only hits you on an 18, and misses you on everything except a 20 if he's power attacking. You can smack your rear at him as a free action as you prance past him, giggling like a mad schoolgirl on her way to grope her boyband idol, except replace "grope" with "murder" and "boyband idol" with "enemy VIP".
So our enemy meatshield is like, "HOLY CRAP, IT'S MEAT-ZILLA!" *swing* whiff *swing* whiff, and then the VIP in the back row cries out "Oh sweet merciful heavens, it touched me! Get it off, get it off! And it has sharp pointy things!"
And you're like, "Hehehe, better start checking the CharOp boards VIP, because I'm about to put our disparity to the test. See, unlike that guy" s/he says pointing to the gnat trying to make AoOs against him/her, "I've got" *insert various powerful defensive abilities and/or immunities such as naturally huge fortitude, reflex, and will saves, divine grace, superstition, spell immunity (choice irritating spells), freedom of movement, etc* "and you've got until my next turn to figure out which one of your spell slots you want to use to run for your life before my friends 'full' and 'attack' come to meet you".
EDIT: In your traditional martial, support, divine, arcane party, I'd actually say screw magic weaponry entirely and dump the rest of my cash into higher resistance bonuses to saves (in fact, you could drop down to +2 equivalent armor without really changing your tactics at all since the above AC isn't counting staple buffs), or if you're crafting your own gear (paladins & rangers) it's not really even an issue.
In the traditional party, your party is actually better off getting your arcanist or divine casters some pearls of power (or equivalents) and having them cast greater magic weapon on your gear each day when you need it (it lasts 1 hour / caster level which is very quickly all day). This is also a classic option for games where magic items are fairly scarce (you stock up on +2 equivalent weapons such as +1 bane, +1 courageous, +1 agile, and then greater magic weapon them up).
My druid liked being targeted. Her second-highest stat was Con and huge water elementals can soak up some serious hits.
Druids are the tankiest class in core (if not the whole game). Wild shape + wild armor = "Dafuq is this AC!?", and they can tend to be highly mobile and agile (no ACPs, adopting the base speed of their animal form, etc). Plus you can't dispel their magic items when they're shapeshifted (nothing to target), and you can't dispel their shapeshifting (it's a Supernatural ability!).
Druids can hit ACs in the 70s pretty easily.
+5 wild dragonhide full plate = +14 AC
+6 natural w/ +5 natural enhancement = +11 AC
+5 deflection
+7 Dexterity (assuming 13 base, +5 inherent, +6 enhncement)
+1 insight
+5 wild tower shield = +9 AC
Total AC = AC 57
A dip into monk can very easily get you another +4-13 AC as well.
Or as mentioned you've charged up to a monk, magus or illusioned fighter.
"Die. Squishy caster."
"Guess again." Badonkadonkadonk.
Well, one of those three things might worry a meat-tank...
Mostly because touch spells tend to hurt a lot, and they're fairly difficult to defend against. >_>I mean, resist energy is cheap, but there's really no escaping the wrath of an empowered vampiric touch. At that point, just hope that your support/VIP was nice enough to cast something like displacement or greater invisibility on you and hope they miss due to concealment. Q_Q
It makes little sense that anything smart enough to cause attacks of opportunity to go after an enemy in a dress instead of the big ugly armor-clad big guy in front of them. Unless he has a backup team, a backup plan, or some sort of contingency plan.
The guy in a dress could be a noble, a farmer, could be a woman.
You will expose yourself to danger (big melee guy) simply to get the chance of wounding the guy a in a dress. Congratulations, you are sentient.
You will accomplish nothing other than force the group to spend a few of their resources (healing potions or spells), which is a metagaming knowledge.
Most "creatures" arent simply stat blocks or miniatures in the hands of a hateful god (the gm), but actual living beings, that have desires, fears and things they hate. And unless they have some trauma against women, they shouldnt rush head in against mages or wizards.
If said creature has ranks in spellcraft, knowledge arcana or even knowledge religion, i would allow him to identify a "caster" instead of just "someone on a dress".
If you start metagaming like that against your players, you will see everybody on your group wearing robes in no time.
I tend to look at it from two points
1) do the monsters in question know anything about magic in the first place. Any ranks in Knowledges or Spellcraft or specifically anti-caster feats like Disruptive.
2) Do they as a group have prior experience dealing with casters. Tribe of Orcs in a dungeon that gets raided by adventurers every month or so. Yeah, they know to kill the guy in the dress first. Orcs that have been wandering the tundra and have just come across a plump town for the raiding, might not know why that old man with the pointy hat is waving his arms around and talking jibberish.
It makes little sense that anything smart enough to cause attacks of opportunity to go after an enemy in a dress instead of the big ugly armor-clad big guy in front of them. Unless he has a backup team, a backup plan, or some sort of contingency plan.
The guy in a dress could be a noble, a farmer, could be a woman.
You will expose yourself to danger (big melee guy) simply to get the chance of wounding the guy a in a dress. Congratulations, you are sentient.
You will accomplish nothing other than force the group to spend a few of their resources (healing potions or spells), which is a metagaming knowledge.Most "creatures" arent simply stat blocks or miniatures in the hands of a hateful god (the gm), but actual living beings, that have desires, fears and things they hate. And unless they have some trauma against women, they shouldnt rush head in against mages or wizards.
If said creature has ranks in spellcraft, knowledge arcana or even knowledge religion, i would allow him to identify a "caster" instead of just "someone on a dress".
If you start metagaming like that against your players, you will see everybody on your group wearing robes in no time.
I'm confused as to why you seem to think mages and such are all wearing dresses. Is this a reference to the Big Blue Dress song? :P
And you're right. Most creatures aren't. Generally speaking, one of the biggest issues is that anyone could potentially be a spellcaster and/or creature with some really bad power to leverage against their enemies. The catch is, once you make your power known, be ready to fight, because you just painted a big target on your head.
Generally speaking, if you're the sort that wants to actually get into melee with a VIP, you should probably be qualified to do so. If you're not qualified, then the other meat-bags will frighten you. If you are qualified, only will extreme meat-bags worry you much.
I think we might not be talking about the same things here, however. I've read some of these posts in the thread that seem to be talking about GMs just attacking the party's mage more or less arbitrarily and/or in a metagaming sort of way. This I do not approve of. However, I do support the idea that...
1. It's not mechanically difficult to identify someone as a spellcaster, as it's just a Knowledge (Local) check with a DC of 10 + the CR of the character being identified.
2. It's not hard to identify a spellcaster once you've seen them cast a spell (this is a big one, really).
3. It's not that hard to "guess" that somebody on the opposing team is a spellcaster. Most spellcasters in this game aren't nancing about in lace, but usually carrying an assortment of arcane doodads like scrolls, potions, wands, and/or other adventuring gear; and it doesn't take many braincells to realize that the guy (or gal) who's hanging out with the armored folks, who is unarmored, probably has some reason to be. I mean, if he wasn't a spellcaster, he's like you said: A mage, a farmer, or someone else. Now let's think...
1. Why would a farmer and/or dude in a dress/no-armor be hanging out with these other dangerous dudes in this dangerous situation and not hiding and screaming and sucking his thumb?
2. If this is not a mage, and is not one of those weaboo-fightan-magic folks who transcribe bibles in their spare time, but seems intent on fighting you naked, then it won't take too long for you to "make sure". If we're not metagaming and we do think it's a farmer, we know they'll be bleeding on the ground in 1 hit. >_>
3. If it's not a mage, and it's not heroic, and it's not hiding under a table...screw it, it's probably a mage. Most definitely a mage...hell, if it's hiding under the table, it's probably still a mage seeking a prime source of cover before it turns you inside out or something! KILL THE SQUISHY! D:<
Is this a reference to the Big Blue Dress song? :P
Yes.