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Lol you know, I find it funny how the OP seems to point out casters... "he is the guy in little armor (aka robes) casting spells"
How about this though:
You see a guy in the back in robes wielding a Katana and casting a spell. Your guys goes and charges him assuming him to be a "caster." Turns out, he is actually a kensai magus and just buffed himself up...
Oh and my personal favorite, you see a guy in robes shoot flames from his hands. You charge him thinking him a caster, NOPE! He is a Qinggong Monk and he just used one of his abilities.
Unless you are saying your enemies are meta-gaming and just know that the guy who looks like a wimpy wizard is actually a monk/Magus.
Oh! And here is another example!
You have a guy in back with dark robes and is casting spells all around. He is manipulating the terrain and buffing his allies. So you charge him, eating AoO to get to him. Oops, turns out the guy is a druid, NOT a wizard, and now he polymorphs and eats your face....
I'm sorry but having yoru guys attack the robed guy because "smart people always attack casters" is either really dumb (since more than a few people actually run around in robes...) or stupidly meta-gamey (well OBVIOUSLY a wizard would wear his robes THIS way and not THAT way so you are OBVIOUSLY not a wizard!... )
Oh!!!
And another thing, this is scenerio, no matter how you look at is, is simply meta-gamey, period.
Why? Because HP is an abstraction. There is no real "HP"... so your baddie knowing that the martials "can only make 1 AoO a turn and they only do so much damage, so I'll be fine!!" is actually very meta-gamey..
I tend to create threats that vary in great degree in their motives and priorities in targets. Most of the time, the priorities will be made based emotionally (the rest of the group may be my enemy, but I have a grudge against person X).
The PC parties usually have the rule of kill the enemy mage. Sometimes an enemy mage is obvious (you get a gold star, there's your target). Sometimes the enemy lacks a mage or has a non-obvious mage.
Only once did I use a bait mage (illusion of a mage to draw enemy fire). The group overcame the threat, yet it was a close fight due to the wasted attacks on the illusionary mage.
The point, switch up tactics. Some opponents are more cunning than others, some are more brutal, some are more cautious, some more reluctant.
It is also VERY hard to break the temptation to just use the same tactics as the PCs.
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Mostly because I just don't believe you when you act like an AoO is going to be the end of the world. Unless your foe is so woefully beneath you, or you're at the 1st level rocket-tag stage then most enemies are going to have way too many HPs.
Why? Because as it has been pointed out hundreds if not thousands of times before, a warrior is strongest at 1st level when a SINGLE HIT has a good chance of instant-killing any foe that you face. However, SINGLE HIT gets weak...FAST.
Your average monster increases their HP by 4.5 per HD that they gain, not even counting Constitution modifiers (which are usually pretty good). Your damage will never increase that fast. Ever.
1st level: your greatsword deals 2d6+6 damage, your enemy has 4.5 Hp.
2nd level: your greatsword deals 2d6+6 damage, your enemy has 9 Hp.
3rd level: your greatsword deals 2d6+6 damage, your enemy has 13.5 HP
4th level: your greatsword deals 2d6+9 damage, your enemy has 18 HP.
5th level: your greatsword deals 2d6+9 damage, your enemy has 22.5 HP.
6th level: your greatsword deals 2d6+10 damage, your enemy has 27 HP.
7th level: your greatsword deals 2d6+10 damage, your enemy has 31.5 HP.Let's tack a +3 Con modifier onto them (your...
Lets try using real numbers.
1st Level: Greatsword deals 2d6+6
2nd level: Greatsword deals 2d6+6
3rd level: +1 Greatsword deals 2d6+7 -> your not counting wbl
4th level: +1 Greatsword deals 2d6+12 -> you forgot weapon specialization
5th level: +1 Greatsword deals 2d6+17 -> you forgot weapon training, +2 str belt
6th level: +1 Greatsword deals 2d6+17/2d6+17 -> step up & strike
7th level: +2 Greatsword deals 2d6+18/2d6+18 -> remember to upgrade gear as you level.
8th level: +2 greatsword deals 2d6+23/2d6+23 -> level based stat increase, power attack increase.
So yes, in any normal game, the fighter sill has the ability to one round opponents at any give level of play.
Basic build, no attempt at optimization. He WILL be hitting you twice at full to-hit values if you attempt to run past him.
Unnamed Hero
Human Fighter 8
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 13, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +2 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 76 (8d10+24)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +7 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 greatsword +15/+10 (2d6+23/17-20)
Special Attacks weapon trainings (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +11; CMD 27
Feats Combat Reflexes, Following Step[APG], Furious Focus[APG], Improved Critical (greatsword), Iron Will, Power Attack, Step Up, Step Up and Strike[APG], Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Traits reactionary, world traveler
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +7, Diplomacy +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +7, Perception +9, Survival +5, Swim +7
Languages Common
SQ armor training 2
Other Gear +2 full plate, +2 greatsword, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, cape of free will +1/+2, ring of protection +1, 9,500 gp
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Special Abilities
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Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Cape of free will +1/+2 Spend 1 power as immediate action to reroll failed Will save.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Following Step You may move 10' with Step Up, and still get a 5' step on your next turn.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Step Up When a foe makes a 5 ft step away from you, you can move 5 ft to follow them.
Step Up and Strike When a foe tries to move away, you can follow and make an attack.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Following Step, Step Up, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When using the Step Up or Following Step feats to follow an adjacent foe, you may als
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
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Oh!!!
And another thing, this is scenerio, no matter how you look at is, is simply meta-gamey, period.
Why? Because HP is an abstraction. There is no real "HP"... so your baddie knowing that the martials "can only make 1 AoO a turn and they only do so much damage, so I'll be fine!!" is actually very meta-gamey..
Martials who can only make 1 AoO per round are doing it wrong.
Also, "only so much per round," can easily be enough to drop most NPC's.
I could get behind the idea that mobs would sooner or later (depending on level) see the caster as the main threat and move to take them out. But running through/ignoring melee to do it seems silly and leaves the fighter feeling impotent. You want the players to have fun right?
Quite the opposite: I build my fighters for battlefield control. Please, try to run past me. I'll get to use all those niffty feats I bought.
I have DM's that have encountered my fighters before that simply won't move anywhere near me for fear of Lockdown/AoO's.
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Lets say a party comes across 4 drow. One is wearing plate and carrying a two handed sword, another has mace, is wearing chain and has a holy symbol on her shield, the third has two scimitars and is wearing leather and the last has a staff, a bat on his shoulder and is wearing everyday cloth.
Now who is the party going to try to turn into a pink cloud on turn one?
So should not the drow try the same thing if they get the drop on the party?
Would the drow not have the guy with the two handed sword standing in a position to prevent everyone from charging the drow with the staff?
How many greatsword hits is the party willing to soak to get to the srow with the staff?
Most parties are going to avoid provoking AoO's. Even more so if it leaves them in a position where they will be flanked on the NPC's turn.
Wanting to kill the casters first and being able to reach the casters quickly can be two vastly different things.
You can still only take a single AoO against a person who's moving through your threatened area.
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
And your chance of hitting against a level appropriate foe is about 50-75%. Plus, compare it to the damage a real blasting wizard is dealing (in my previous post, that you've chosen not to respond to), or the control a normal wizard provides. It's easily worth taking a chance to be hit to try and stop the open wound that a wizard throwing spells every round presents.
One thing I have done in the past is have combat monsters, sometimes flyers park themselves away from the party. The melee types go out to fight them, and then the flyers go around the melee types to the unprotected casters.Lol...good one, ws. Dumb party is dumb.
You laugh, but it works a lot. :)
Those meleer's will charge in to attack, even if the monsters don't show any signs of having ranged attacks. :)
The first time I did this was with a monster known as a soul eater.
This monster has a flying speed of 100.
They have an attack that does wisdom damage.
So once the melee types are about 60 or more feet out they can both double team a caster if you use two of them. Put them on the other side of the casters if possible to block any charging attacks if the melee types have haste on.
Since they get two attacks, that is 4 more saves the caster will likely have to make even after the melee guys are on the way back to protect them. :)
The AoO is always the lesser of two evils from level 5 on.So if we're taking the assumption that eating a single (or two) attack from an AoO isn't a particularly big deal, why then are we assuming that the single attack from the monster is going to completely win the day against the wizard?
It seems honestly likely that the enemy reaches the wizard, makes a single attack and then the next turn the enemy finds himself completely cut off from his allies surrounded by extremely well armed, extremely displeased martials and an even more displeased spellcaster. At which point he dies miserably and team monster is down a member with no meaningful gains.
I think the idea is to get a full round attack on the following turn, and yes putting yourselves in that situation will lead to death, but if you(the monsters) and your buddy can drop the caster you in theory may live. If you do not drop the caster then you won't live. Depending on how many enemies are on the map you may also still be able to harass the melee types.
One thing I have done in the past is have combat monsters, sometimes flyers park themselves away from the party. The melee types go out to fight them, and then the flyers go around the melee types to the unprotected casters.Lol...good one, ws. Dumb party is dumb.You laugh, but it works a lot. :)
Those meleer's will charge in to attack, even if the monsters don't show any signs of having ranged attacks. :)
The first time I did this was with a monster known as a soul eater.
This monster has a flying speed of 100.
They have an attack that does wisdom damage.
So once the melee types are about 60 or more feet out they can both double team a caster if you use two of them. Put them on the other side of the casters if possible to block any charging attacks if the melee types have haste on.
Since they get two attacks, that is 4 more saves the caster will likely have to make even after the melee guys are on the way back to protect them. :)
You're also using real tactics, instead making suicidal bum rushes to the casters.
The feat Stand Still, should work more like Pin Down, except for normal movement.
Oh!!!
And another thing, this is scenerio, no matter how you look at is, is simply meta-gamey, period.
Why? Because HP is an abstraction. There is no real "HP"... so your baddie knowing that the martials "can only make 1 AoO a turn and they only do so much damage, so I'll be fine!!" is actually very meta-gamey..
well no, he'd think it's risky but he probably will come out fine. there's still a chance that he gets critted and insta gibbed, just like he could try to dodge past and get run through.
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I've done 'target the caster' twice. Once was more about just simple tactics and the other was an elite group specializing in taking out curious adventuring groups.
First was with a group of trolls with an advanced troll leading them who basically beat into their brains "FIRE BAD! KILL DEM GUYS DAT DO FIRE STUFF"
So they targeted the alchemist and magus who used fire on them. However the alchemist was behind a wall of paladin so she was safe. The magus however for some reason thought that sneaking up behind the trolls while invisible with no other backup to use burning hands without hitting his allies was a brilliant move... while on half health... yeah he got eaten.
The other was with a set of basically elite werewolf guards. Their sole duty was to keep people out of their forest. If their 'human' companion couldn't convince hunters/merchants/meddlesome adventurers to leave then they had to make sure that no one survived so getting the caster became priority.
So it was werewolf monk with panther style leads the way knocking down anyone who tries to AOO them and once most of the melee guys were flat on their backs/cautious of AOO then the hidden barbarians came in to say hello. It was a very rough fight. They 'forgot' to use the oil of darkness since it was bad enough already.
As always with bad guy encounters you need to pay attention to their motivations. Why are they there? Why are they willing to fight the party? Thinking about this lets you step into their mindset and from there you can roleplay how they would actually act rather than following set tactics.
Some won't target spellcasters, some would target them almost exclusively. One tactic doesn't always work and shouldn't always be used other than mindless creatures attacking mindlessly
One thing I have done in the past is have combat monsters, sometimes flyers park themselves away from the party. The melee types go out to fight them, and then the flyers go around the melee types to the unprotected casters.Lol...good one, ws. Dumb party is dumb.You laugh, but it works a lot. :)
Those meleer's will charge in to attack, even if the monsters don't show any signs of having ranged attacks. :)
The first time I did this was with a monster known as a soul eater.
This monster has a flying speed of 100.
They have an attack that does wisdom damage.
So once the melee types are about 60 or more feet out they can both double team a caster if you use two of them. Put them on the other side of the casters if possible to block any charging attacks if the melee types have haste on.
Since they get two attacks, that is 4 more saves the caster will likely have to make even after the melee guys are on the way back to protect them. :)
You're also using real tactics, instead making suicidal bum rushes to the casters.
The feat Stand Still, should work more like Pin Down, except for normal movement.
I like the 3.5 version of stand still that was in the psionic handbook a lot better than Pathfinder's version.
If you could reach them, then you could stop them. I would have made it into a combat maneuver attack instead of a using a reflex save though.
The "adjacent" language turned me off to the feat.
Might point out that the rules state many spells have a materiel component. Which means one quick way to tell a wizard from a monk is the number of pockets and belt patches a guy in robes have. People tend to forget that since for the most part the materiel is free.
Because this tactic only really works at low levels before the aforementioned Invis, displacement, mirror image, etc. and at low levels is exactly when a monster/opponent will get killed trying to run past the martials.
I really have nothing to add as I think most of the salient points have been covered, but I felt like throwing this out there anyway.
If the monster has reason to believe that one of the PCs is a caster, and they're aware of what a caster can do, they would eat plenty of attacks to kill them.That's fair. We have a mechanic for that. Have the monster roll Knowledge (Arcane) or Spellcraft.
...no? He doesn't have either of those skills and they cannot be used untrained?... Hmm...
Yes, some spells are really obvious, but others aren't. Knowing which member of a party is "the spellcaster" is pretty impossible, unless it's a wizard going to the whole "robes & pointy hat" look.
Note also that Adventuring parties on Golarion are VERY rare, if not unique.
Recognizing a spell pouch instead of a belt pouch is also hard.
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Yes, some spells are really obvious, but others aren't. Knowing which member of a party is "the spellcaster" is pretty impossible, unless it's a wizard going to the whole "robes & pointy hat" look.Note also that Adventuring parties on Golarion are VERY rare, if not unique.
Recognizing a spell pouch instead of a belt pouch is also hard.
Well actually spells are immediately recognizable due to still and silent spell being a thing and a still silent spell STILL provokes an attack of opportunity so the attacker can be inferred to know whats happening since they're permitted that.
Plus spellcasting is available in every town. The only thing that differs is the level of spellcasting and possibly GM fiat. So most people live with a spellcaster in town.
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Yes, some spells are really obvious, but others aren't. Knowing which member of a party is "the spellcaster" is pretty impossible, unless it's a wizard going to the whole "robes & pointy hat" look.
Note also that Adventuring parties on Golarion are VERY rare, if not unique.
Recognizing a spell pouch instead of a belt pouch is also hard.
Adventurers in Golarion are the exact opposite of rare or unique. Especially seeing as there's a whole organization backed and funded by most of the major countries dedicated to training and directing adventuring parties.
But this thread isn't about Golarion. It's about Pathfinder.
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You can still only take a single AoO against a person who's moving through your threatened area.
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
Only a single AoO per opponent. Unless the character has feats that say otherwise. The fighter I posted, with Step Up and Strike, can manage two.
When using the Step Up or Following Step feats to follow an adjacent foe, you may also make a single melee attack against that foe at your highest base attack bonus. This attack counts as one of your attacks of opportunity for the round. Using this feat does not count toward the number of actions you can usually take each round.
And your chance of hitting against a level appropriate foe is about 50-75%. Plus, compare it to the damage a real blasting wizard is dealing (in my previous post, that you've chosen not to respond to), or the control a normal wizard provides. It's easily worth taking a chance to be hit to try and stop the open wound that a wizard throwing spells every round presents.
Crossing referencing the numbers from the fighter build I posted with average monster values, we can see that I hit ~75% of the time at level 8, each hit dealing ~30% of total NPC hp. With Step Up and Strike, the fighter has an ~94% chance to hit with at least one attack and ~56% chance to hit with both. Assuming the NPC survives running past the fighter and reaches the caster, the fighter now gets his turn; flanking bonuses will apply.
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Might point out that the rules state many spells have a materiel component. Which means one quick way to tell a wizard from a monk is the number of pockets and belt patches a guy in robes have. People tend to forget that since for the most part the materiel is free.That souds like a really easy way to confuse the enemy. The Flowing quinngong snake style Monk in the party use a robe with many pockects and a couple fake spellcomponent pouch and a pointy wizard-like hat.
With the logic of this thread the enemy have to rush to attack the monk, eating a couple of AoO and getting flanked and probably full attacked next round, because otherwise the enemy are stupid. Meanwhile, The sorcerer in the party with no spell component pouch is free to cast his spell.
The monk, or the kensai who will also be unarmored and carrying a spell component pouch. The kensai will even use magic on his turn, reaffirming your belief he is a wizard.
Might point out that the rules state many spells have a materiel component. Which means one quick way to tell a wizard from a monk is the number of pockets and belt patches a guy in robes have. People tend to forget that since for the most part the materiel is free.That souds like a really easy way to confuse the enemy. The Flowing quinngong snake style Monk in the party use a robe with many pockects and a couple fake spellcomponent pouch and a pointy wizard-like hat.
With the logic of this thread the enemy have to rush to attack the monk, eating a couple of AoO and getting flanked and probably full attacked next round, because otherwise the enemy are stupid. Meanwhile, The sorcerer in the party with no spell component pouch is free to cast his spell.
That is what I mentioned. There are many times where telling the "spellcaster" in the party is damn near impossible without meta-gaming. I mean, with Qinggong Monks, Kensai Magi, Sacred Fist Warpriests, Eccleisitheurge Clerics, Druids, and the more martial focused wizards/sorcerers/Arcanists... its hard to tell from first glace just what is what... Heck! Maybe that heavy armored guy in the front IS the caster... (Arcanist 1/Fighter1/EK5/Hell Knight Enforcer X). Or maybe he is the guy in the back shooting arrows into you (W1/F1/EK5/AAx)...
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You're demonstrating that subterfuge is a good idea, not that ganking the caster is a bad one.
Actually: I was just discussion the characters I play most frequently and how they react with different forms of meta-gaming I encounter in PFS.
(There are certain GM's where all NPC's know what I am and what I have after the first time I surprise the GM.)
The monk, or the kensai who will also be unarmored and carrying a spell component pouch. The kensai will even use magic on his turn, reaffirming your belief he is a wizard.Might point out that the rules state many spells have a materiel component. Which means one quick way to tell a wizard from a monk is the number of pockets and belt patches a guy in robes have. People tend to forget that since for the most part the materiel is free.That souds like a really easy way to confuse the enemy. The Flowing quinngong snake style Monk in the party use a robe with many pockects and a couple fake spellcomponent pouch and a pointy wizard-like hat.
With the logic of this thread the enemy have to rush to attack the monk, eating a couple of AoO and getting flanked and probably full attacked next round, because otherwise the enemy are stupid. Meanwhile, The sorcerer in the party with no spell component pouch is free to cast his spell.
The possibility of disguising a monk as a wizard is not a sufficient reason for NPCs to prioritize peoople who they think might be wizards. Monks just aren't that common in most places. That's why all the monk weapons are classed as exotic rather than simple.
The Kensai has a martial weapon and is even rarer than the monk. Having one is a good countermeasure a party can take against rational opponents, but the existence of a regional archetype of a not at all common class is not a reason for NPCs to not target suspected wizards first.
You're demonstrating that subterfuge is a good idea, not that ganking the caster is a bad one.
Actually i would imagine monks more common that mages... seeing as being a mage require vast intellect and another mage to train you...
Also, you are forgetting Ecclesiatheruge Clerics, Druids, The other cleric Archetype (I forgot the name of it), Kensais, Oracles (they can run around in robes, heck look at the iconic...), Summoners (try and rush a summoner and see what happens...), Arcane Archers, Eldritch Knights, Bards, magi in general (they can actually get pretty nasty with their casting), ect...
I'm sorry but unless your guy is going out of his way to look stereotypical wizard, it is really hard to tell the difference...
Ganking the caster is only a good idea if you are meta-gaming and know just WHO the caster is...
Like here, tell me this, how would you "rush the caster" if the caster is an EK/Hellknight Signifier? I mean, they can quite easily look like typical casters if they wanted to (they just abuse Polymorph spells instead of relying on armor and weapons).
Heck, one of my favorite characters I made for a quick dungeon crawl was an Aasimar Blood Arcanist 1 (nanite bloodline) 1/Bloodrager (abyssal) 1/EK5/Hellknight Signifier 10 who abused the Crap out of Form of the Dragon at later levels and Elemental Shape Earlier... Normally I would look like a normal wizard type character... until I cast my spells and suddenly went straight feral on you...
Step Up and Strike only does anything when someone is five foot stepping or withdrawing away from you. Not when they're moving past you.
The monster creation table is a good start for determining AC on enemies that won't wear armor, but almost always low-balls the power a real opponent has. A CR 4 warrior, for example, probably has around 21 AC (+1 Dex, Dodge, Plate), and around 80-ish HP (due to their 11 hit dice, despite having a low Con modifier). Monsters also generally have additional defenses (such as being incorporeal) and special abilities, and many of them are intelligent, and can wear leather (or masterwork studded leather) armor, or are proficient with armor not listed in their stat blocks.
Please address the difference in damage output between the wizard and martial, I don't want to have to keep asking repeatedly. As a reminder: your presented fighter deals 42.19 DPR full attacking an opponent with 21 AC, and 25.84 damage on an AoO (accounting for critical rate and miss chance).
A blasting focused wizard deals 15d6+3 (55.5 average) fire, cold, electricity, or acid damage in a 20 foot burst with a save DC of 21 (Starting Int 19, +4 Int item, Spell Focus). The average Reflex save at CR 4 (mook level) is +6, and the average Reflex save at CR 8 is +8. An average element-ball deals 47.18 damage to the mooks, and 44.4 damage to a CR 8 target, with the ability to target any vulnerabilities that exist, and hitting all targets within a 20 foot burst within 800 feet- they can do this around 9 times per day. These numbers will be a little lower against opponents that have invested in a save boosting item (as low as 40.24 against a CR 8 opponent with a +3 saves item). As a monster, you could try to slug it out with the fighters. But if you don't try to stop that output, you'll most assuredly die.
Edit: This is assuming a 7th level wizard, as I mentioned in my previous post on blasting wizard output. An 8th level character would either have significantly more longevity (an extra 3rd and 4th level spell slot means up to 2 extra fireballs per day), or could multiclass to sorcerer and add an extra 10 damage to each element-ball and 10 damage to each element-ball of one particular type.
Actually i would imagine monks more common that mages... seeing as being a mage require vast intellect and another mage to train you...Also, you are forgetting Ecclesiatheruge Clerics, Druids, The other cleric Archetype (I forgot the name of it), Kensais, Oracles (they can run around in robes, heck look at the iconic...), Summoners (try and rush a summoner and see what happens...), Arcane Archers, Eldritch Knights, Bards, magi in general (they can actually get pretty nasty with their casting), ect...
I'm sorry but unless your guy is going out of his way to look stereotypical wizard, it is really hard to tell the difference...
There's no reason to believe monks are more common than mages. Monasteries, Magic Academies, Master and Pupil exist in both classes. They also take the same amount of time to learn(They're in the same age modifier category).
As far as your other mentions, those are also high priority targets that likely get more heat than martials. Typical anti-caster tactics would be taken against them. You got your front line NPCs and an archer/caster in the back readied to disrupt their spell with damage.
If the enemies are facing a blasting wizard with those nubmers, then I do not see how eating AoO and ptting all close togheter (near the wizard) is a good idea. Next turn a...Step Up and Strike only does anything when someone is five foot stepping or withdrawing away from you. Not when they're moving past you.
The monster creation table is a good start for determining AC on enemies that won't wear armor, but almost always low-balls the power a real opponent has. A CR 4 warrior, for example, probably has around 21 AC (+1 Dex, Dodge, Plate), and around 80-ish HP (due to their 11 hit dice, despite having a low Con modifier). Monsters also generally have additional defenses (such as being incorporeal) and special abilities, and many of them are intelligent, and can wear leather (or masterwork studded leather) armor, or are proficient with armor not listed in their stat blocks.
Please address the difference in damage output between the wizard and martial, I don't want to have to keep asking repeatedly. As a reminder: your presented fighter deals 42.19 DPR full attacking an opponent with 21 AC, and 25.84 damage on an AoO (accounting for critical rate and miss chance).
A blasting focused wizard deals 15d6+3 (55.5 average) fire, cold, electricity, or acid damage in a 20 foot burst with a save DC of 21 (Starting Int 19, +4 Int item, Spell Focus). The average Reflex save at CR 4 (mook level) is +6, and the average Reflex save at CR 8 is +8. An average element-ball deals 47.18 damage to the mooks, and 44.4 damage to a CR 8 target, with the ability to target any vulnerabilities that exist, and hitting all targets within a 20 foot burst within 800 feet- they can do this around 9 times per day. These numbers will be a little lower against opponents that have invested in a save boosting item (as low as 40.24 against a CR 8 opponent with a +3 saves item). As a monster, you could try to slug it out with the fighters. But if you don't try to stop that output, you'll most assuredly die.
I believe the idea would be to possibly force the Wizard to make an unoptimal decision. Causing him to cast defensively is a goal in of itself.
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They don't really get a choice. If they don't try to stop the wizard, they're allowing more destruction to be slung at them with impunity.
In the situation you present, their choices are to either continue fighting as normal, dealing with the frontliners, and eat another one on the next round guaranteed, or attempt to deal with the wizard giving them a chance of not being roasted.
Step Up and Strike only does anything when someone is five foot stepping or withdrawing away from you. Not when they're moving past you.
The monster creation table is a good start for determining AC on enemies that won't wear armor, but almost always low-balls the power a real opponent has. A CR 4 warrior, for example, probably has around 21 AC (+1 Dex, Dodge, Plate), and around 80-ish HP (due to their 11 hit dice, despite having a low Con modifier). Monsters also generally have additional defenses (such as being incorporeal) and special abilities, and many of them are intelligent, and can wear leather (or masterwork studded leather) armor, or are proficient with armor not listed in their stat blocks.
Please address the difference in damage output between the wizard and martial, I don't want to have to keep asking repeatedly. As a reminder: your presented fighter deals 42.19 DPR full attacking an opponent with 21 AC, and 25.84 damage on an AoO (accounting for critical rate and miss chance).
A blasting focused wizard deals 15d6+3 (55.5 average) fire, cold, electricity, or acid damage in a 20 foot burst with a save DC of 21 (Starting Int 19, +4 Int item, Spell Focus). The average Reflex save at CR 4 (mook level) is +6, and the average Reflex save at CR 8 is +8. An average element-ball deals 47.18 damage to the mooks, and 44.4 damage to a CR 8 target, with the ability to target any vulnerabilities that exist, and hitting all targets within a 20 foot burst within 800 feet- they can do this around 9 times per day. These numbers will be a little lower against opponents that have invested in a save boosting item (as low as 40.24 against a CR 8 opponent with a +3 saves item). As a monster, you could try to slug it out with the fighters. But if you don't try to stop that output, you'll most assuredly die.
Um... you must not know how to play blasters huh?
at level 15 (if that is what you want to do) a blasting wizard will do:
15d6 (intensified Fireball)+30 (Crossblooded Sorcerer dip)+90 (Lesser rod of maximize) or +10 at earlier levels if using a Goblin Fire Drum+ 15d6/2 (empower Spell)+ if you fail the save you become dazed (dazing spell).
So on average a level 15 wizard should be able to crank out 198 damage easy...
I don't think you understand. Look, here are the options as you've presented them.
1) Continue fighting normally, attempting to carve through the frontliners. This exposes them to full attacks and a guaranteed second strike from the wizard.
2) Attempt to stop the wizard. This means moving and making an attack against them, tripping them, grappling them, using a special ability, whatever. Trying to do something to disable the wizard or make it difficult for them to cast. This exposes them to an AoO and one attack (due to the martials being forced to move as well), and a chance of being blown away by the wizard (as opposed to a guarantee).
Edit: That's a 7th level wizard, Kitty. Not a 15th level wizard. I suppose they could deal a bit more damage by dipping earlier than 7th level, but then they'd lose half their 3rd+ spells per day, which would suck, and be stuck at CL 9 on their fireball, which reduces SR penetrating power slightly.
Actually i would imagine monks more common that mages... seeing as being a mage require vast intellect and another mage to train you...Also, you are forgetting Ecclesiatheruge Clerics, Druids, The other cleric Archetype (I forgot the name of it), Kensais, Oracles (they can run around in robes, heck look at the iconic...), Summoners (try and rush a summoner and see what happens...), Arcane Archers, Eldritch Knights, Bards, magi in general (they can actually get pretty nasty with their casting), ect...
I'm sorry but unless your guy is going out of his way to look stereotypical wizard, it is really hard to tell the difference...
There's no reason to believe monks are more common than mages. Monasteries, Magic Academies, Master and Pupil exist in both classes. They also take the same amount of time to learn(They're in the same age modifier category).
As far as your other mentions, those are also high priority targets that likely get more heat than martials. Typical anti-caster tactics would be taken against them. You got your front line NPCs and an archer/caster in the back readied to disrupt their spell with damage.
Except that many of the other classes are more than capable of handling themselves in close quarters combat. He didn't mention anti-caster tactics (like having archers ready actions to counter wizard spell casting and such) he just mentioned having targets try and eat AoO to bomb rush the caster. The problem with this is that many of the things that can look like caster are also melee monsters (clerics, druids, summoners [yay DD as a Su ability!], bards, magi, ect). So just straight charging a "caster" is a dumb and meta-gamy idea. Now if you advocated adjusting tactics to minimize caster capabilities then I say SURE! Archers SHOULD try and disrupt casters while the big beaters keep teh fighter busy.
I don't think you understand. Look, here are the options as you've presented them.
1) Continue fighting normally, attempting to carve through the frontliners. This exposes them to full attacks and a guaranteed second strike from the wizard.
2) Attempt to stop the wizard. This means moving and making an attack against them, tripping them, grappling them, using a special ability, whatever. Trying to do something to disable the wizard or make it difficult for them to cast. This exposes them to an AoO and one attack (due to the martials being forced to move as well), and a chance of being blown away by the wizard (as opposed to a guarantee).
Edit: That's a 7th level wizard, Kitty. Not a 15th level wizard.
Sorry I just brainfarted xD. College sucks sometimes xD
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Please address the difference in damage output between the wizard and martial, I don't want to have to keep asking repeatedly. As a reminder: your presented fighter deals 42.19 DPR full attacking an opponent with 21 AC, and 25.84 damage on an AoO (accounting for critical rate and miss chance).
You've used every optimization trick in the book to get a small number of high damage spells.
I've not optimized at all. I could pull much higher numbers with a few archetypes tossed in. For example; fighters now have access to either rage or mutagens. Furious weapons, Courageous weapons, dueling gloves, more spent on offense, less on defense. If your dipping for crossblooded, for example, dip the mutagen fighter into barbarian for your comparison, enjoy both mutagens and rage without giving up BAB. The fighter could nearly double his damage output if he was as min/maxed as your wizard.
Unless the party is full of people who have combat reflexes, great positioning and strange tricks, the most a monster is going to eat is one AoO per party member, which is frequently a better choice than letting a caster get off a spell. And once monster A has run the gauntlet partway feasting on some of the AoOs then monster B can run the first part of the gauntlet safely because all the AoOs have been used up.This strategy sounds like the monsters don't actually care if they survive, just as long as Team Monster gets to kill some PCs. They'll gladly charge through the gauntlet of AoO-ing martials just on the off chance they survive to reach the wizard at the rear. Most of them die in the process.
Meanwhile, the GM piously claims that the monsters are just doing what's smart. That's not true though; they're doing what's good for the boss of the monsters (who has more sacrificial minions available), not what's good for the individual monsters.
So from the monster's perspective, it's okay that the first one is just going to get killed running in, hoping that the second one can kill the wizard with one hit? Because if you don't, you've just surrounded yourself with PCs about to engage in a full attack.
These tactics smell like a suicide bomber trying to do the most damage, not monsters being smart and caring about their own survival.
There are some tactics goblins won't do, for everything else, there's Zon-Kuthon cultists. Zon-Kuthon, because a wounded acolyte is an appreciated Acolyte.
You tried to compare a martial's damage output to a wizard's. The only wizards that will be casting blasting spells are wizards that have optimized for it. You need to either own that comparison, or admit that it wasn't helpful to the discussion.
Not that the wizard I posted is using "every trick in the book". There are a few rarer or more difficult to pull off ones (like the aforementioned fire drum) that aren't included, and it's only using feats up to 5th level. If you really wanted to pump out as much damage as possible in a nova you could throw in a bead of karma (with Use Magic Device) and Intensified Spell for fireballs dealing 21d6+3 damage, for example, for 10 minutes a day.
Spell Specialization + Varisian Tattoo with Empowered Spell and Admixture is standard for blast wizards.
You tried to compare a martial's damage output to a wizard's. The only wizards that will be casting blasting spells are wizards that have optimized for it. You need to either own that comparison, or admit that it wasn't helpful to the discussion.
I play a 14th level sorc, who is a generalist, mostly support. But yes, he does cast a number of Blasting spells, he knows one or two each level. He is not optimized for blasting, so this is not correct. Blasting spells are quite useful, Fireball is just about the most common 3rd level spell, after Haste.
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You tried to compare a martial's damage output to a wizard's. The only wizards that will be casting blasting spells are wizards that have optimized for it. You need to either own that comparison, or admit that it wasn't helpful to the discussion.
I was comparing an unoptimized fighter to an unoptimized wizard.
As stated above, with optimization examples, a min/maxed fighter would greatly increase total damage output. And he can do so for more than just 2-3 rounds a day.
The problem with this is that many of the things that can look like caster are also melee monsters (clerics, druids, summoners [yay DD as a Su ability!], bards, magi, ect).So, things that look like casters. Two (four actually since you didn't list oracle or shaman) are also full casters. One may as well be a full caster, and one is a major force multiplier. The only classes that can look like casters that shouldn't have absolute priority over all non or 4 level casters are the magus and monk. And the only reason the magus doesn't also take absolute priority is that he can sack his attack modifier in spell combat to pretty much guarantee successful casting.
Monks are regional and magi are rare. All non-CRB classes are intended to be rare.
Don't let the wizard or sorcerer or arcanist cast haste becomes don't let the summoner or bard cast haste or the cleric or oracle cast blessing of fervor. The logic is the same. A buffed enemy will hurt you for more than the AoO.
Taking a few AoOs and then fighting the front line after the casters are gone is better than exchanging full attacks with a front line benefiting from haste or blessing of fervor.
Why assume it's a party of adventurers with the four classic roles? Maybe that guy is a merchant?
Then compare what an unoptimized character is going to be doing to what another unoptimized character is going to be doing. Comparing a fighter doing what he's best at to a wizard doing what they're the worst at is not a valuable use of anyone's time.
Having a Monk or other pretend they are a caster I would consider a good tactic, if you have a monk that will play along.
And as for caster casting defensive spells, well thats also good from the monster point of view as that evey defensive spell a wizard has up is one less offensive spell cast.
I might mention I view player characters as similar to gunfighters in the old west. Even today almost everyone has heard of Billy the kid who killed 21 men according to legend. Now how many orcs has your Wizard killed? If its more then 21 dont you think they would know your name and have a pretty good descriptionof you? Once your characters get to a decent level they are going to be famous as Wyatt Earp, Jesse James, Roland, Neill of the Nine .Hostages, etc