nate lange wrote:
I understand what you're getting at and I will use some of these ideas to roleplay out the back and foth clash of wills between the Pc and the suit.And yes, while the evil elves are utter B*****ds, the suit is merely pragmatic or neutral - it's moral compass is more self-focused, mainly based on pride in it's abilities and it's position. (depending on it's wearer)
... and it comes from a world where humans are considered less than dogs mostly, so it has some issues with it's current situation.
I'm still going to let the Dominate stand (if I remember it was "Dominate Person", so I know I am already far out in GM Fiat/Homebrew -land, and I'm fine with it).
Anyways, the whole purpose of this discussion is how to convert what is technically a metal elemental into a form of item that fits my game.
Blymurkla said wrote:
I didn't quite understand the bit you highlited (I'm at work so focus is stretched) can you explain it for me?Also, thanks. :)
Blake's Tiger wrote:
I like your idea, I'm going to run with it - When the armor bonds, it's for life (i've already teased this in game)I'm also going to allow the armor to take any form wished by the wearer (meaning in game terms that it can have the stats of any metal armor)
we use automatic bonus progression from unchained so it doesn't need any "+"-es, also he's a buffer bard with miniscule combat stats so letting him choose freely is fine, it's not going to be overpowered.
Adding that will pump the Ego/will DC to 24 I'm guessing? or more?
Blake's Tiger wrote:
I think this version is the easiest to implement in the game, although I still want to incloude the constant/toggle thing somehow
I think the combined price of the item also increases the ego as well (there was a chart ...) but not sure.
Construct Armor? hoo-boy, I think I'll stay clear for now, haven't read the rules for it.
My players suprised me again today.
I have these villains in my game: large sized demon elves - pretty much beefed up drow with dark eldar manners.
So the players fight a single one of these guys, (it was a bit of a freak accident, very cool and thematic fitting with the story) - and like all PF players they instagib the poor guy before he even gets to take a turn ...
Now I'll admit, I wasn't really planning for anybody to get their hands on these things. They were just a cool description coupled with an excuse to give a scary enemy 2 initiative slots.
But come on; when the player pulls of something impossible with some quick thinking, cool roleplaying, and lucky rolls - I like to reward it.
Now I just have to find some way of statting out this thing without making it overpowered.
My first idea is the following, using rules for making intelligent items (and I still haven't figured out how these work completely):
does this seem ok to hand to a level 11 character?
I chose the shield/haste combo to simulate how depending on it's masters wishes it can either lash out at opponents near him, or protect him from blows
Anybody got some ideas or insight for how to make this? I'd love to hear other versions if they make sense (was playing with the idea of just giving the player a pet elemental, but it seems like more bookkepping and bother than fun).
I understand where you're coming from, I really do- and we've all played at one time or another with that GM that loved to fool us by withholding info or outright lying.
yay. that was fun.
Because everybody loves to spend their entire game night proving why one of the group is more clever then the rest of the gang.
in a rigged game.
But ... I've also played with what I could describe as "Passive" players:
So in the interest of the balance that we've both been talking about,
Unrelated to the current discussion; but I'm really sorry that you had an experience like that.they are unfortunately not that rare, If it happened to me I would at least talk to the Gm about it ...
Oh well, I hope you're having fun with your Barbarian/Brawler. :)
my group has tried this:
I personaly loves that it removes all the
When it comes to called shots, PF isn't really built for that, but my group uses the Critical Hits and Critical Fumbles Card Decks - and they add enough of that to make things interesting.
I'll add my interpetation:
I once played a half orc that had elven bood on the other side of his family,
I don't think there is any "right" answer to this, it all depends on how you want to play your character.
there is no yes/no answer to this, both sides can be advocated.
All in all, you're good - the fact that you're asking youself the questions: "was I fair? am I making the game fun for everybody?" means you're most likely not a powermad 'Killer GM'.
Keep up the good work.
Bluff would be my choice, because you are trying to get a reaction that benefits you by fooling them.
If you fail, they look at you once and maybe roll their eyes, then go back to what they were doing - you did not make an impression.
wizard chassis (bab, hp, skilll per lvl, 9th lvl casting)
decide how many domains the new clas have at the start, or if they gain more as they advance (cool idea)
and it seems I just made a WIS-based sorcerer ... which is fine.
Being contary in nature I would go with a Fighter and let the high stats help with skills and such.
You say you like to make things work, make a sword-n-board Fighter with most of his high stats in mental(cha, int, wis) work, THAT would be cool.
then again, between inquisitor and rogue I can imagine most skills are decently covered, and wizard can potentially cover most utility - so this group would have fun with a Paladin in it (healing & frontliner).
But how much "building" do you need from lvl 1-6 with those stats? (that's why I suggest a Fighter, this is the stats and game where you can get away with just having fun and playing whatever you like, it's too low lvl for optimization and percived C/M-disparity to influence the game -unless someone is having a lot of cheese)
Matthew Downie wrote:
I'd have the leader of the giants be wary. He knows the PCs are strong enough to upset a dragon. So he sends his most expendable giants in first, tells them to throw rocks at the village and see what happens. He hangs back, surrounded by his toughest bodyguards, watching from a good vantage point. That way, it's not just one big battle with everyone attacking at once.
nice, I think that's a good start, I have the Monster Codex (g'damn that's a fun book for Gm's!) so I have many different variants and levels of frost giant to throw at them.
The Raven Black: while the idea is nice it kinda defeats the purpose of the big battle I want to stage, also .... there is the players.
As a side note; because of Real Life Stuff(tm) we're only playing once per month, so our sessions will tend towords the larger events and more epic moments in the story.
So the gang is getting back together after a while (last game was before summer)Yay!
Oh yeah Btw: DARKER DAYS PLAYERS PLEASE DON'T READ THIS.
Last times our great(...?) heroes were adventureing they decided to amush a youngling dragon ( it was more like an execution)
So here is what I'm going to do: the dragon will contact the giants, manipulate/make a deal with them
the result of this is that next session starts with the giant attacking the village the players have set as base.
the village have no walls or fortifications except the natural:
for the record, the pcs are all lvl 11:
Still with me? good, ok here's the questions: How would you do such a siege?
one big battle with ludicrus amounts of giant just swarming the players ?
other questions is consequences: what natural enemies have the giants kept in check up there in the cold mountains that might come down and mess with the players at a later point in the campaign?
Is there anything obvious I've missed or anything that would be cool to throw into this mix? I'm open for suggestions
you guys have been going at this for a while, and even though I've found some opinions and theories interesting and amusing, I don't think anybody have stated the obvious.
"how do you keep a fantasy setting from a technological explosion?"
OR to be slightly less tongue in cheek about my answer:
or to rephrase this slightly: (strawman alert)
Now I'm not going to pretend that I've got a deep understanding of history, but from what I've read: the technological advances that sparked the revolutionary changes that have resulted in the society we have today did take years or even decades to happen.
So assuming that you play standard golarion, or a similar fantasy setting - and for some reason your players start talking about applying modern technology to their fantasy world (or maybe you introduce the concept through an NPC because ... you like more work?) - it will still take decades for any change in society to manifest.
And yes, this is also taking height for the fact that magic allowes you to cheat and skip certain steps.
If your players chafe at this "enforced setting rigidity" then sit them down and ask them what the h*** they really want to play, because it ain't normal fantasy if they want magitech steampunk haberdash.
So to summarize; it ain't a problem, you're overthinking it.
that is a nice looking map.
on ideas from the map:
there is obviously some draconic massive scary thing to the top left, possible winter dragon or somesuch.
and it's neighbours along the top must be dark elves (warhammer style)
I agree with JamZilla that the narrow channel leading to the wider peninsula (is it a peninsula? I can never get geography terms right) must be pirate/bandit waters ...
and the two volcanoes in the surrounding mountain range around that same waters tells me fireworshipping outcast land with some messed up rituals and crazy high priestesses leading a small pirate nation (blood for the blood god etc)
so the end question is: are all the plains peaceful farming areas+ or are they ruled by nomads?
that's what I get from first impressions ...
Ethereal Gears wrote:
You are absolutely right, those two goals are completely different.I can only answer for myself when I say that the main goal (for me) is to give the fighter more out of combat versatility with skills.
The "general"-option you kinda outlined is not one I'm interested in, I think such an idea is less class-dependant and more game dependant.
This is also because I think that a high level Fighter should be allowed to NOT be a leader if the player wishes it, as much as the opposite.
So assuming that all leading is something based on cha-modifiers, diplomacy and performance tests, and that either the leadership feat or Good Oldfashioned Roleplaying/GM fiat/player wishes decides wheter the fighter is a lone knight (a la dark souls) or a mighty commander (like DA: inquisition) ... then my fighter build has the following:
4+int skill points, and most likely slightly more class skills (Without overthinking it I would consider adding 1 more knowledge skill, perception & stealth)
And that leaves ... options for being relevant at higher levels against creatures with features like teleport/flying/invisibility/DR and such.
Invisibility is annoying, but there is a feat called blind fight (not saying all fighters have it, I'm just saying they can take it and they have loads of feats) so the main issue is finding named creture.
DR is not a problem, the fighter has a nice damage output and weapons can be made out of different materials/enchanted, not an issue moving on.
Flying and teleportation: here we go ... in a full plate the fighter isn't exactly quick, and even if he is wearing less his movement is not fast and limited to horisontal ...
gaining flight is wholly dependent on items or teammates.
I personally think there is nothing wrong with challenging players with different types of scenarios where they sometimes will be outmanouvered or have to rely on different tricks or tactics than usual.
Sorry for the wall of text, but you got me thinking and I wanted to clarify my reasoning.
Aelryinth: there is no subconscious about it :) more an active intentional attempt on my side. That's why I took the time to clarify the campaign.
Using Stamina to boost physical skill rolls is a start, and I think it's very easy to implement.
Last I would consider if either 1.) Replacing bravery with something more substantial - like increased movement, or a way to use manouvers more efficiently against slippery opponen. Or 2.) Outright adding something like that and keeping bravery where it is.
People keep talking about giving the fighter "all good saves" or complex new abilities that make more similar to other newr classes, I think that the apparent simplicity in a 1st lvl fighter is part of his appeal, and removing that makes you wonder ... if that's what you want - why not play a Brawler or swashbuckler and pick up some armor feats?
Lastly I would add that the increased options for all combat feats with the stamina rules is a badly implemented and complicated addition, that increases the bookkeeping for the player while mostly just adding boring static bonuses and not much more.
Ok guys, been following parts of this discussion (haven't read all the pages I'll admit) and I thought I'd chip in:
I'm currently GM'ing a combat-focused exploration game with a lot of unchained playtesting
So just for info I'm using: Revised Action System, Automatic Bonus Progression, Consolidated Skills & the Stamina rules (specificly: the fighters only variant)
Because of all this I'm not even pretending that this is vanilla pathfinder (what is, really? does ANYBODY play that?) -and I think I've never played that. Just something to keep in mind.
First: we have no problem with the Fighter class in this game, none, nada
Second: (and this is the part where I bring something new)
"the fighter can spend points from his stamina pool to increase all Physical skill rolls in the same way that he would increase his to hit "
Boom, bang, svisj, done - it's simple, adds to options and is thematicly accurate (by my opinion) for a fighter.
I think "physical skills" is a good enough description for people to understand, but just in case and for the record they are: Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Stealth & Swim.
Although ... I can see a point for allowing Sleight of Hand, Perception & Intimidate - but then I ask what about Disable Device? and then I wonder if I'm amking a fighter or a Rogue :)
So what do you think?
(for the record I'm also in the camp that advocates fighters getting 4+int skill points per lvl, since (almost) ALL THE OTHER MARTIALS HAVE IT, seriously wtf paizo? )
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
This is the best advice on this kind of situation.
Other notable ideas is to keep playing and next time the samurai gets offended or starts declaring challenges say OOC (some groups have a sign for talking out of character, others just daclare when they are in or out of character) "OOC; [insert name of samurai playere here], grow the f*** up." and then keep playing like he's not there.
or less agressive: ask him what his deal i snext time he makes things uncomfortable for you. If he says he's just playing his character say : " no, you're being an ass and making our game suck, please stop"
regardless, be diplomatic, comunicative (spelling?), composed and resolved.
I mean , hell: minsc and edwin could adventure together for most of the game before they attacked each other. literally months of throwing s!@* before one of them snapped.
also this :
alexd1976 said wrote:
1.) play the module even though they are "underleveled", my experience with players and Challenge Ratings have tought me that the players will find a way.
2.) just level them up, don't overthink it, don't try to make it "fair" or make it fit the rules - you make the rules, if you want them to be lvl 3 or 4 when the next adventure starts you .... make it so (Picard voice).
*poff, you're now lvl 4*
Elias Alexander wrote:
hmm, I guess the first thing to do is to stop thinking of stories as packaged bundles - like the scooby-doo-cartoons; where every episode is resolved and returned to the status quo at the end.Some tricks:
1.) always have 2 (or more) stories happening at the same time.
for example: the roscoe brothers are robbing a bank at noon, but at the same time the mad bomber mulligan has placed abomb in the city hall.
how do the players get involved? who do they think initially is responsible for the bombing? what happenss when the roscoe brothers deny being the bombers? where is mulligans next target?
2.) decide what the opponents/villians end goal is, then backtrack all the way to the beginning, along the way on each bit ask yourself: is this something he would do himself? or hire someone?
3.)never tie up all the loose ends at the end of a story, leave them to dangle and annoy players - then bring them back later as a reveal or new plot hook.
I might have more tips, but for now it's lunch :)
This Is Motherf***ing Gold!
I am doing this from now on.
Speaking as a "GM taking a break" I would ask you to consider the same: take a break, if you're struggling to come up with something fun to play ... then you're not having fun I assume. And this is a game.
If I misunderstood you, and taking a break is not wanted or possible I would say that from your post the first thing I would reccomend is: ask your players what they want from the game and if they are having fun?
In addition; from your post I get the impression that you put a lot of focus on world building, maybe even without any player input, and then bring your finished product to the table and tell them that's what your playing?
I remember a GM I played with a while back that was so enamored with his own creations that some games would devolve into storytime; with him sitting there reading aloud from his 4 inch thick binder of notes about the culture and locations and lore of something or another that nobody cared about ... his problem was (imho) that he forgot that we were playing a game, not evaluating his fantasy novel.
regardless, my own way of making stories/getting inspiration? I do the opposite of you:
- I decide what kind of stories I want (last game was horror and an feeling of being against the odds)
-then I make the first plot, and I only make facts and details for things that will be used in that plot and lore that might come up during that game (the first session was in a haunted house in a rural part of a country; I made maps for the house and the elements in and around it, I named the country - didn't draw a map, I fleshed out 2 other side locations in case the Players decided to go exploring) ... -and then we started, I made up stuff as we played or inbetween sessions, slowly fleshing out the world - when I (finally) drew the players a map it was just the country they were in, half a year later they would acquire a map over the continent, and even then it was just 'big picture'-style, with lots of blank spaces wher I could put whatever I needed as inspiration struck.
(I once had a necropoplis spring into existence half a days travel from the town where the players were resting because I wanted to do a 'ruins & tombs'-dungeoncrawl. the players never noticed that it hadn't been there the week before, because I hadn't told them anything about what was to the east the session before.)
the point is to avoid making invisible lines in your head, boundries, or Canon (ugh)so that if you want to do something different for you next plot, like a desert adventure, you haven't already told the players that there are no deserts on this continent and sea travel hasn't reached other lands yet. It's a "center->out"-design approach.
For inspiration I recommend just reading good books or watching good media (films, games, series) .
Hope some of this helps, sorry about the wall of text (I got inspired)
answer to the title( What happens if Black Blade is lost?): a quest starts?
I mean, do you really want to play a awesome mcdudson superman-like character, who never fails, fumbles, have setbacks, have to make decisions, gets tired, cares about things, or people, that can be unbalanced, or afraid? are you sure Pathfinder is the best game for that?
IF your black blade ever gets stolen or disarmed or wahtever, then trust your table and yourself to make it a memorable story and an interesting challenge. And I'm saying 'IF' here, because your GM is probably not a dick - if he is, why play with him? so I am making an assumption that he won't do something like that just to mess with you and make your game un-fun.
but yeah, after 9th lvl it can teleport to you as well, so there's that ...
step 1: befriend said wizard as a fellow adventurer and maybe occasional hireling that can get things done; for example as an assassin or bodyguard.
...or maybe not, more seriosly though: can you give some more info on the scenario? because so far we have his class and level - and it's impossible to kill Schrödingers Wizard(tm). (at least without the thread turning into a sidetracked spectacle of "nu-uh!/Ye-uhu!")
Who is he? what's his story? what's Your story with him? why do you want him dead? known interests/enemies/powers/allies
I've only run dragons once, with some variations based on age:
1.) the (3) dragons awoke from slumber and 1 pc was there to see it, because of bad decisions and luck he ended up having to fight the youngest. The battle was inside a mansion with the poor rogue using stealth and mobility to outmanouver the arrogant younger dragon. It died from bleed damage just as he was at his ropes end. (very fun battle for the whole group)
(side note: 1 of the dragons is the Elder while the other 2 are very young, and thereby easier to defeat)
2.) the second dragon was an anticlimatic execution: the party brought all their followers and sat out bait for the other young dragon, after making a pile of stealth checks (and the dragon scoring so abysmal that I thought it was unfair to be honest) they filled the lizard with arrows and bolts (everybody had been buffed up and many of the lvl 1 npc followers managed to hit the flat footed dragon as it gorged itself)
3.)The fight with the Elder dragon was different, it spotted them as they were leaving with the corpse of it's brood. It cast invisbility and snuck up on them, using a major illusions to adress them from the front of the cart (intimidating them and distracting them at the same time) .
My summary of what DM_Blake said (and my own opinion):
(isn't it amazing how often that is the best advice?)
Anecdote: it has happened to me as well - players that have very little initiative to drive the story forwards. In my experiences the player will most of the time take more charge and make decisions as they get more comfortable with the group and hobby. In some few cases the player never change and it's part of who they are - for whatever reason, they still care about the game, they just don't like to be put on the spot
This. So Much.:)
An order of the scales cavalier with combat expertise(tax) and Dirty Fighting or some other CM-feat focus could be fun.
I am by the way, assuming that you want to replay your character from lvl 1, if you just want to rebuild him as a npc or antagonist for a game then of course I'll need to tinker more.
just a sidenote here:
so all of your players will have stamina rules added to all of their feats?-Have you read that chapter?
because I have the book, and I still haven't been able to finish that ginormus list of added rules for EVERY FEAT EVER WRITTEN ... EVER.
so when you'r players make their characters they will either be laid back: "so I have feat X and feat Y, and oh - they both have the added rules of x1 &x2, more to remember, but it's ok (I hope)"
-maybe an extreme example, but however much I like the idea of the stamina rules, I abhorr the execution.
Hello. I am thinking about starting to play Pathfinder but since the game is already several years old, I'm thinking whether I should wait for a second edition instead of committing to purchase 1st edition books now. Is there any info about a possible 2nd edition on the horizon?
This made me laugh, thank you.
(more sriously:I second chaoseffect's answer, he has the gist of it )
A pirate ship full of Paladins ... now THAT sounds like a good story.I would say that yes, you're right: any caster will need a spellist, or at least the resemblance of one - and that's extra homework for a GM.
But so is also Deeds, and most players/GM's have less experience with them.
And maybe that's the core of it: experience.
siderant: And is it just me or is there more things to choose in the new classes than the old? It's fun for customizers, but not for Gm's that want a fast opponent to drop into a lvl 10 game. (high level also makes that worse, of course)
I understand what you mean and I agree that this book has more complex system than, for example the Core book.
This is actually something I've noticed for a while in other books as well, and I've experienced in play how players I consider quite rules-savy have misunderstood or fail to grasp the mechanics of some of the new classes. I've also noticed that some players have forgotten about many of their minor class abilities because there are so many of them.
as a comparison: consider the rogue, fighter and cleric compared to the alchemist, magus and inquisitor in terms of mechanics and you'll see a jump in the difficulty curve.
being a demi-grognard I am dreaming of a time where the classes were easier to wrap your head around and start playing, instead of studying them intensly - like preparing for an exam.
Understand me correctly though: I like a lot of the new ideas and systems shown in the latest books.
I just wish the standard minimum of complexity for class building was more like the rogue and wizard - not the bard or shaman.
Now a lot of these so-called problems might not be a challenge for many of the people that frequent these boards, but out in "the real world" a lot of the new classes have a higher system understanding requirement than the original Core classes.
In my opinion. :)
Just a Guess wrote:
Interesting idea, my opinion would be: 9th lvl casters get a good will save, full BAB classes get a good Fortitude save, and 6th lvl casters (+the monk & rogue) get 2 good saves (1 of them probably reflex)
but it's just the first thought ...
I'm agreeing with you there Ssalarn: some things in unchained work and some don't (for me). overall the book is good and adds coll options - I hope they make a second one.
I originally liked the Stamina system ...
Scaling items is something I love, but like Cranky, it makes my head hurt.
I understand what you're trying to say, but Pathfinder have loads of examples of this. And everyone of these so-called "Uber" builds or examples have at least one if not several achillies heel and counters.
As an example, the often mentioned slumber witch with a scythe and the shocking grasp magus - buth quite impressive in their field with minimal effort and available at low levels (or even 1st? I'm not an expert)
Your sundering 2-handed fighter is the same, impressive in his field and his specilization has born fruit but ...
What is he going to do against a dragon flying over him and spamming its breath weapon? sunder space and time to get on it's back? :p
And to Rynjin: I don't think any "obfuscation" was intended, let's stay civil here.
-But yeah, maybe the topic should have been "Is this how sunder and the PA-feats interact? Do you think that's balanced?" or something like it ...?
So if I'm reading you right, the issue is not that the fighter is good at sundering, but more that the campaign is in an urban setting and A LOT of the enemies are humanoids with gear dependency?
if that's the case then: ... Monks and Brawlers? a disarm specialist every now and then? adding a sniper to some encounters?
Like many have said: your guy is good at this thing, don't take it away from him. Let him be " the Bladebreaker - most ruthless man I've ever seen in a fight!" and play to his strenghts.
I like the stances and the change to bonus feats!Some of the other abilities seem a bit much ( am I reading it right that a 20th lvl fighter with haste will have 4 standard actions per round?!)
But I like the thought behind the armor training and the battle experience. Nice ideas!
I've been playing around with redesigning the classes as well.
SInce we're talking about the fighter I'l describe my work in progress for the martials:
All martials (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Gunslinger, Samurai/Cavalier, Bloodrager, Brawler, Slayer, and Swashbuckler) get:
4+int skill points per levels
in addition each class has 4 more class skills:
Gunslinger: acrobatics, bluff, knowledge engineering, knowledge local
Bloodrager: acrobatics, bluff, knowledge arcana, spellcraft
(if anybody is wondering how I picked those specific skills: I looked through the class skill lists and saw that some martials had barely 10 class kills, while others had up till 18. I then gave everyone the skills that were most common on all the list and cut away from the lists that had too much. for example all martals except the paladin have climb as a class skill, and the slayer have 18 class skills while the most common number for the others is 10)
the end result is that all martials have 14 class skills and 4 skill points per level.
looking at my list I'm wondering if it wouldn't have been easier to just say "pick 4 from the following list: ..."
I'm also considering wheter to change their saves but I think they are fine as they are - I _might_ adjust so that all martials get a high fort save (they practically do already, there is 2 or 3 classes tops that don't have it)
if anybody is wondering, all the casters (ANY class with 9th lvl casting) have been overhauled to have:
the "hybrid" list will be a middleway between the two extremes, more hit points and BAB than casters, can cast in armor, more skills than martials. -but that group is the least uniform one, and I haven't sat down to go through the numbers and balance them. after looking through them maybe I'll have to go back and adjust this list, but I'll see how it goes.
I know it's extreme, and YMMW, but for me I think making martial more competent skill-wise than casters is a good balance. As said; it's a work in progress.
Tl;dr: fighters get 4+int skill points per levels
now your fighter can DO THINGS when he isn't in combat.
this is all, of course, based on the assumption that skills matter (in my games they do)
So ...the day I always knew would come - is close
In my campaign I removed elves but left some hintings in wall murals and myth about the terrible 'Eldren' who disappeared ca 500 yrs ago.
My idea is simply to take the elf template, slap a large size on it, and call it a day. -Maybe remove 1 or 2 small elf skill bonuses to pretend that it's balanced. (I'm also adding more dex to offset the size penalty)
The end result is a normal elf - large sized ( meaning 10' reach), with +2 str +2 dex -2 con +2 int (is that correct?)
My depiction of them has been vague of course; they are large, have magic, wear armor made of 'living metal' when they go to war, were decadent and cruel, had pale almost blue skin, some of them had horns or antlers... so one part fey crazies, a large part drow, a small part demonic dimension jumping aristocrats.
How would you stat them? (It's allowed to use more than standard points if needed, it's a quest reward )
I think I see what you're getting at here, but I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm hinting at which in a single word would maybe be: Survivability.
As an example:
-but the Rogue is fine, evasion says so.
-of course this is without getting into minute details like con modifiers and the results of hp rolls and so on.
get my point? sometimes it's not about being optimal or making the right choice. Mirror image only works after you've cast it, flying doesn't help against an arrow to the eye.
As a gm in a homebrew with (I'll admit) changing houserules and character creation boundries
All in all, I've noticed some small things, but I feel like (for my groups) that the biggest deciding factor is the players and their system mastery, not the class necessarily.
(I mean ... the player with the Alchemist character has some days where he can't find his ass with a mirror and a map, so regardless of the class - the player is very unoptimized. technically he should be outshining the rogue, practically he is only outshining random npcs and some cohorts )
That is something I feel not many have mentioned in their experiences: it is true that a prepared caster with initiative can wreck challenges and outshine others (if the player is good enough to take advantage)
players do this (often) and when something goes wrong or you get sideswiped it's nice to have some sturdier teammembers.
Doesn't that happen to your games? are your players all clairvoyant?