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The campaign setting books are most likely only used by those running Golarion games Ashiel. Not surprising folks haven't heard of the tattoos.
Also, since the campaign books are GM territory generally, some of those feats may not be considered standard for games.
Me, I tend to let my players run with anything I own from Paizo itself. Still haven't seen varisian tattoos in play.
Cheers
The campaign setting book has as much for players as GMs. I'd dare say more in some cases, since it specifically gives options for building characters in addition to setting based lore.
The generic version of the feat, which is OGC, can be found on the d20pfsrd.com.
It just amuses me to hear things like "It sounds like it would be banned" without having any idea what it even does. Man, Diehard sounds really hardcore; must be OP. :P
I knew exactly what it did, having looked it up. My question was whether it was a feat, trait or item, since the page I found it on didn't say. It being referred to as a compulsory option for optimizing wizards was a warning sign, same as those silly orc-bloodline crossblooded sorcerers.
Since my current game is Core-only, it would definitely be banned.
Imagine fighting a group from an army, where uniforms are being worn. Maybe even a crusade, where some of the crusader have defected and are secretly working for the bad guys.
The point of uniforms is to help each force identify itself, but also to stop the enemy easily working out everyone's exact role.
In this situation you might need a kn history check, or even a profession soldier check before realistically being able to target a specific enemy ( be it rushing casters or targeting someone with specific saves).
Ok let say you are on a Modern Battlefield and you see a squad of enemy soldiers. 6 have assault rifels , one has a RPG and the last is carrying a bunch funny equipment and a pistol. I may not know what sort of specialist the guy with the pistol is but Im going to take him out first. Unless I spot the guy with the Radio ,then he goes down first.
Yes, and Exhibit A is the Paladin. Likely the best Will saves in the party. Immune to some effects also.
Without metagaming, how do you know who has the low will saves? Remember that just because someone is wearing heavy armor and wielding a sword does not necessarily mean that they have low will saves.
Actually no. Exhibit A is the Warrior, the most plentiful of the heavy armor wielding soldiers. Then we have Cavaliers, Fighters, and Samurai before getting to the Paladin.
Its incredibly likely the heavy armor wearing soldier is susceptible to Will Saves. From a world standard.
As for the gentlemen who brought up wayfinders and avoiding domination, there are other very terrifying Will Saves out there as well such as...
Aggressive Plane Shift to Hell.
Fear effects
Illusions
Insanity
Ok let say you are on a Modern Battlefield and you see a squad of enemy soldiers. 6 have assault rifels , one has a RPG and the last is carrying a bunch funny equipment and a pistol. I may not know what sort of specialist the guy with the pistol is but Im going to take him out first. Unless I spot the guy with the Radio ,then he goes down first....congratulations, you dropped the bomb disposal person. Now you haven't reduced their ability to kill you, but you have furthered the cause. So if you placed "furthering the cause" higher up your prioritisation than "protecting your own life" then that was well done.
Or the chaplain, or the medic. Same argument applies. Now, granted, DS is playing the odds,... but it still might make more sense to take a few seconds to see what he's aiming at before bulling the trigger.
I knew exactly what it did, having looked it up. My question was whether it was a feat, trait or item, since the page I found it on didn't say. It being referred to as a compulsory option for optimizing wizards was a warning sign, same as those silly orc-bloodline crossblooded sorcerers.
Since my current game is Core-only, it would definitely be banned.
Not a compulsory option, but definitely an extremely desirable one for blasters. In the same way Power Attack is desirable for people that make melee attacks.
Blasters in general don't really work that well with core only, to be fair. They suffer from big problems with energy types, and they can't really boost their damage high enough to be relevant at mid to high levels.
I wasn't singing out the paladin but it is a good thing to remember. Glowing holy weapon still doesn't mean paladin. You also don't automatically detect auras. If you are searching for clues then as the GM I'm willing to work with you. If you're making assumptions don't be surprised if you find the situation more challenging than expected.*headdesk*
Why on earth would you think I'd be making assumptions like that? I was specifically talking both about visually apparent clues and about deliberate misdirection using same. It should be abundantly obvious then that I know the visual clues aren't certain things.Ok let say you are on a Modern Battlefield and you see a squad of enemy soldiers. 6 have assault rifels , one has a RPG and the last is carrying a bunch funny equipment and a pistol. I may not know what sort of specialist the guy with the pistol is but Im going to take him out first. Unless I spot the guy with the Radio ,then he goes down first....congratulations, you dropped the bomb disposal person. Now you haven't reduced their ability to kill you, but you have furthered the cause. So if you placed "furthering the cause" higher up your prioritisation than "protecting your own life" then that was well done.
Do all monsters do the same?
In the long run it does protect my life to get of the other side hignly trained techs as they are hard to replace.
And monster that live for centuries and are intelligent as me and sbould look at the long run.
Fact is you are not going to always know who the casters are and there going to be times when it not practical to attack them first.But given knowledge and ability they should be prime targets
And when it does, it's REALLY irritating.
To clarify, when, as a player, you are absolutely forced to lose with no other option, it becomes a matter of how you lose. Losing, in general, is not fun (though there are plenty of specific exceptions).
- Do you lose and flee... when, according to the movement rules, you're not actually going to escape the thing that's chasing you (because you move 30 ft... and so do they, pulling you out of melee range, but putting them in melee range)
- Or do you go out in a blaze of glory, making it so that whoever comes next (very likely, your own next character) has less to deal with next time?
That's not to say that people couldn't and shouldn't die or be forced to flee... but it can feel like heavy-handed or poor GMing.
On the other hand, if the bad guys get away, it can be exceedingly frustrating for the Players... especially when, like me, they take precautions against that exact scenario, or when the bad guys take ridiculous seemingly preternaturally aware actions that allow them to functionally escape, despite the rules that normally work against that sort of thing.
This often represents an effective waste of a huge amount of resources on the part of the PCs and their players, and is the culmination elimination of a lot of planning... that only partially succeeded.
Now none of that is to say that good stories can't be made out of these events - they most certainly can - but the events can cause a huge amount of frustration along the way.
Of course, a creature that expects they will survive the encounter isn't likely to avoid running away just because weird mundane rules say they aren't going to succeed at running away.
Running away is totally possible. Especially if you have the right tools. It becomes much more a matter of "having the right tools" at higher levels as teleportation and other things come into play, but still.
You can only Run for a number of rounds equal to your Con score, and then you can continue running only as long as you keep making successful Con checks each round. There's an element of randomness there that makes running away have a chance of success even when your Con is lower than that of the thing you're running away from. It also helps if you have tools to aid escaping; tanglefoot bags to throw at pursuers, caltrops to scatter in doorways, things like that.
Heck, if you're an arcane caster the spell vanish can work in a pinch, letting you get some space inbetween you and your pursuer and find a hiding spot. Running away successfully is definitely a mechanical possibility without any fiat from a GM.
Fact is you are not going to always know who the casters are and there going to be times when it not practical to attack them first.But given knowledge and ability they should be prime targets
Why? They arent more dangerous, in fact they generally do less damage. Sometimes their AC is lower, but they have other defenses that make up for that.
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Casters do generally do less direct damage. That does not in fact make them less dangerous. :P
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Fact is you are not going to always know who the casters are and there going to be times when it not practical to attack them first.But given knowledge and ability they should be prime targetsWhy? They arent more dangerous, in fact they generally do less damage. Sometimes their AC is lower, but they have other defenses that make up for that.
Are you real?
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There's an assumption here. It's that you're going to survive this fight. And that is unlikely. In the real world armed encounters usually end with one side retreating. How often does that happen in pathfinder? Not that often, I'd guess.[In the long run it does protect my life to get of the other side hignly trained techs as they are hard to replace.
And monster that live for centuries and are intelligent as me and sbould look at the long run.
Armed encounters in our world now involve guns. This means your fighting at distances of 40 or 50 metres in urban areas, further in rural areas. This makes running away far easier than it is in pathfinder.
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Fact is you are not going to always know who the casters are and there going to be times when it not practical to attack them first.But given knowledge and ability they should be prime targetsWhy? They arent more dangerous, in fact they generally do less damage. Sometimes their AC is lower, but they have other defenses that make up for that.
I usually agree with you DrDeath, but this one I'll put some examples where the damage output isn't the thing to concern the enemy.
If a caster uses a spell that causes one of my buddies to fall down (sleep, command, hideous laughter, fear even) then he's a threat to me because in less than 6 seconds he took one combatant out without touching him. That could be me next.
If the caster uses hold person, or dominate or charm, again I've seen them do something that's directly dropped our combat numbers without touching a person. Dominate and charm might even have my own friends working against me.
Now those are cases where the caster does something and even non experienced combatants will realise they are a threat. It's a visual clue that doesn't need special skills to work out.
Does this make them instant targets? Not necessarily, but it does provide reason for them to be targeted without using metagame knowledge.
It's equivalent to the modern day signalman getting targeted if possible. His radio is possibly a bigger threat than the rest of the opponents because what he can call down on you.
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There's an assumption here. It's that you're going to survive this fight. And that is unlikely. In the real world armed encounters usually end with one side retreating. How often does that happen in pathfinder? Not that often, I'd guess.[In the long run it does protect my life to get of the other side hignly trained techs as they are hard to replace.
And monster that live for centuries and are intelligent as me and sbould look at the long run.
I can't say about everyone's games, but the NPCs in my games almost always cut and run when things look bad for them. Even going so far as to jump through windows if need be. Also, surrender is generally preferable as a last-ditch effort (and since my players tend to be non-psychotic, they're usually down to not kill if they don't have to). :D
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Really? Wow. I thought that was the standard for blasty wizards.Spell Specialization + Varisian Tattoo with Empowered Spell and Admixture is standard for blast wizards.I've seen lots of blast casters (sorcerer and wizard) and I've never seen that combo in game
Not everyone plays hyper-optimized forum builds.
I don't even know what Varisian Tattoo is. It's not in any of the books I own. A trait? A feat? An item? Although it sounds like it would be banned as cheese in any game I play in so I don't really care.Really? Wow. I thought that was the standard for blasty wizards.Spell Specialization + Varisian Tattoo with Empowered Spell and Admixture is standard for blast wizards.I've seen lots of blast casters (sorcerer and wizard) and I've never seen that combo in game
Um... what? Its a feat....
For your information the standard blaster has:
Magical Lineage-Fireball
Spell Hunter-Fireball
Dazing Spell
Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Varisian Spell Tattoo
Spell Focus (evocation)
G.Spell Focus (evocation)
Spell Perfection (fireball)
Rod of Quickening/maximize.
Of Course if you really feel like ramping things up you can always grab things like:
Goblin fire Drum
or
Blood mage Initiate.
Ok let say you are on a Modern Battlefield and you see a squad of enemy soldiers. 6 have assault rifels , one has a RPG and the last is carrying a bunch funny equipment and a pistol. I may not know what sort of specialist the guy with the pistol is but Im going to take him out first. Unless I spot the guy with the Radio ,then he goes down first.Imagine fighting a group from an army, where uniforms are being worn. Maybe even a crusade, where some of the crusader have defected and are secretly working for the bad guys.
The point of uniforms is to help each force identify itself, but also to stop the enemy easily working out everyone's exact role.
In this situation you might need a kn history check, or even a profession soldier check before realistically being able to target a specific enemy ( be it rushing casters or targeting someone with specific saves).
Or you know.. you can take out the guy with the RPG... you know, the weapon that takes out YOUR HEAVY ARMOR AND pretty much kills you by getting close enough...
Casters do generally do less direct damage. That does not in fact make them less dangerous. :P
Um... AT THAT SPECIFIC MOMENT, they are currently less dangerous than the guy with a sword cutting into your abdomen...
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I don't even know what Varisian Tattoo is. It's not in any of the books I own. A trait? A feat? An item? Although it sounds like it would be banned as cheese in any game I play in so I don't really care.Really? Wow. I thought that was the standard for blasty wizards.Spell Specialization + Varisian Tattoo with Empowered Spell and Admixture is standard for blast wizards.I've seen lots of blast casters (sorcerer and wizard) and I've never seen that combo in gameUm... what? Its a feat....
For your information the standard blaster has:
Magical Lineage-Fireball
Spell Hunter-Fireball
Dazing Spell
Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Varisian Spell Tattoo
Spell Focus (evocation)
G.Spell Focus (evocation)
Spell Perfection (fireball)Rod of Quickening/maximize.
Of Course if you really feel like ramping things up you can always grab things like:
Goblin fire Drum
or
Blood mage Initiate.
Your use of "standard" is incorrect.
What you have shown is one build. Just because your players only run cookie cutter characters doesn't make them "standard" at all.
The entire concept behind pathfinder and 3.5 before it is the versatility and variability in the possible ways characters are put together and run. There is no standard.
Telling people they're not building correctly or saying that something is standard is really condescending, and a little bit immature.
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Standard doesn't mean it defines your entire character. It means those are common things to include in a blasting character. Telling someone Power Attack is standard on melee oriented martials is not in the least bit condescending, immature, or inaccurate.
And I don't think half of your feats (less than that if you don't pick up Dazing Spell) is a cookie cutter build. That's not even most of your character.
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Standard doesn't mean it defines your entire character. It means those are common things to include in a blasting character. Telling someone Power Attack is standard on melee oriented martials is not in the least bit condescending, immature, or inaccurate.
And I don't think half of your feats (less than that if you don't pick up Dazing Spell) is a cookie cutter build. That's not even most of your character.
Power attack isn't standard. It might be something you take if you want to open other feats. It might be something you take to increase damage. It might be something you ignore completely in favour of other feats
Saying power attack is standard if you want to build a sundering combat dude is different, since it's a prerequisite for a feat chain.
Something may be commonly used, but saying its standard is implying anything else is not standard. On these boards, for most posters, that means "substandard".
Agreed, my use of condescending and immature was a little heavy handed. Appologies for that.
A better word for the build above would have been "effective". That way it comes off as advice rather than something else.
Spell Focus/G.Spell Focus is pretty much common place for ANY specialist, especially ones that focus on things OTHER than buffs.
Dazing Spell is fairly common among blasters sinces it adds a huge amount of versatility to blasters.
Intensify Spell is pretty much a must for most blasters (why waste a level 5 slot what a intensified Fireball does for a 4th level slot assuming no meta-magic reducers?)
Empower/Maximize are very common. Heck, even the greenest of players tend grab those meta-magic feats because they are very obvious picks for damage blasters.
Spell Perfection is common because you already meet the pre-reqs pretty easily (especially since teh Wizard class GIVES you 3 meta-magic feats when you qualify for the feat)
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Standard doesn't mean it defines your entire character. It means those are common things to include in a blasting character. Telling someone Power Attack is standard on melee oriented martials is not in the least bit condescending, immature, or inaccurate.
And I don't think half of your feats (less than that if you don't pick up Dazing Spell) is a cookie cutter build. That's not even most of your character.
Power attack isn't standard. It might be something you take if you want to open other feats. It might be something you take to increase damage. It might be something you ignore completely in favour of other feats
Saying power attack is standard if you want to build a sundering combat dude is different, since it's a prerequisite for a feat chain.
Something may be commonly used, but saying its standard is implying anything else is not standard. On these boards, for most posters, that means "substandard".
um... when easily 90% of martials will run around with power attack.. yes, it is standard...
by your logic, point blank-shot is not standard... just everyone grabs it...
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Standard doesn't mean it defines your entire character. It means those are common things to include in a blasting character. Telling someone Power Attack is standard on melee oriented martials is not in the least bit condescending, immature, or inaccurate.
And I don't think half of your feats (less than that if you don't pick up Dazing Spell) is a cookie cutter build. That's not even most of your character.
Power attack isn't standard. It might be something you take if you want to open other feats. It might be something you take to increase damage. It might be something you ignore completely in favour of other feats
Saying power attack is standard if you want to build a sundering combat dude is different, since it's a prerequisite for a feat chain.
Something may be commonly used, but saying its standard is implying anything else is not standard. On these boards, for most posters, that means "substandard".
um... when easily 90% of martials will run around with power attack.. yes, it is standard...
by your logic, point blank-shot is not standard... just everyone grabs it...
It's interesting you say that. In my current group, we have two fighters, a paladin and a barbarian. Only the barbarian has power attack. The paladin has other options he prefers. One of the fighters is an archer build, the other fighter has gone for defensive/ caster tagging step up ideas.
Power attack is an effective feat if you use two handed weapons say. However, it doesn't really help if enemies are hard to hit in the first place. Not everyone takes it.
Now, if we were running 5 ed where they give you a suggested build based on quite limited options at the moment, it mig be standard.
When you start throwing out the word standard, it implies cookie cutter, whether you like it or not.
Additionally, making up statistics to support your claim isn't particularly useful for an argument. Where did your % come from? Is it a number you just plucked from the air or is there an article supporting this?
I ask this, because often on these forums, the personal experience of the player seems to be all the evidence they need to say there argument is correct no matter what. Sometimes their experience may indeed be correct, but as many times as not, their experience is completely different to someone else's. As hopefully my example above has demonstrated.
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um... when easily 90% of martials will run around with power attack.. yes, it is standard...
One of these days my magus will sit back and think about grabbing power attack.
Then he'll get over it and move one. Power attack is only overwhelmingly common on full BAB martials using two-handed weapons. As soon as you move away from that model, its popularity starts dropping.
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Most people don't consider magus "martials". Magi are like a gish-in-a-can.
If you're not going to use Power Attack as a full-BAB class, you are going to need to seriously think about ho to squeeze extra damage out of your class, and why you need all the extra accuracy. In core PF, martial to-hit after BAB, class features, and buffs dramatically exceeds the AC of most enemies relative to your level (it's not difficult to routinely attack at upper 40s low 50s (+20 BAB, +10 Str or better, +5 enhancement, +10 class features, +2 heroism, +1 haste, etc), whereas one of the highest ACs that you'll find in the bestiary is maybe AC 50 (a pit fiend or ancient gold dragon with some defensive buffs / trinkets).
That's not saying that melee-martials can't deal respectable damage without power attack, but they do need a plan for how to do so, if they want to keep their edge. This might include relying on certain buffs and super-high accuracy to get extra iterative hits on (such as a Paladin casting divine power for a +6 to hit and damage and hitting with all of his iteratives too).
Generally speaking, Power Attack only starts looking ugly when you don't have the excess to-hit and/or you're using off-hand weapons and/or lots of secondary natural attacks. Even then, it's usually amazing even for dual-wielders like Str-rangers, because the off-hand hits are icing on the otherwise deliciously moist cake.
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This could be why I don't see it used in our games extensively Ashiel. For home games, we have a consistent group that knows how to play together. I guess our melees may be used to knowing certain buffs or certain effects can be in play. Also, we usually have multiple melees in play so damage dealing isn't an issue.
Additionally, after a certain point, damage potential far exceeds the hit points of an enemy, with or without power attack. Doing 20 points over the enemies hp is no better than doing 2 more than the enemies hp in terms of the outcome. There are other feats my players find more interesting than power attack, so unless they go fighter, where feats are easily available, then it's just not taken that often.
Interesting. Will look into it a bit more.
Edit - just remembered something we all discussed in our group one night. Power attack seems amazing at. Levels 1 - 5, once you get your second attack at level 6 though, it starts to be less used. Why is that? Because when your second attack hits as well, you do more damage than the power attack lets you on the first attack. We've kind of begun thinking of it as a trap feat for some classes. The power attacking two handed raging barbarian wouldn't have anything less than rage at the moment though. His power attack helps make up for the loss in to hit ability.
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It's interesting you say that. In my current group, we have two fighters, a paladin and a barbarian. Only the barbarian has power attack. The paladin has other options he prefers. One of the fighters is an archer build, the other fighter has gone for defensive/ caster tagging step up ideas.
Power attack is an effective feat if you use two handed weapons say. However, it doesn't really help if enemies are hard to hit in the first place. Not everyone takes it.
Now, if we were running 5 ed where they give you a suggested build based on quite limited options at the moment, it mig be standard.
When you start throwing out the word standard, it implies cookie cutter, whether you like it or not.
Additionally, making up statistics to support your claim isn't particularly useful for an argument. Where did your % come from? Is it a...
Considering that it's a damage output upgrade at almost all levels of play, it's pretty dang standard. At least for people that know what they're doing- we're discussing the average player, not totally new or unskilled players.
Here are some numbers as an example, using Fighters since they're fairly simple and easy to work around even if not mechanically great. Assumptions are based on standard 15 PB and normal WBL. We'll look at a minimally invested baseline- the only feats being purchased here are the Weapon Focus line (to better simulate the output of other, stronger classes), Improved Critical, and Power Attack.
1st Level
Our Fighter: 18 Str, +1 BAB, Power Attack, Weapon Focus
Longsword Routine: +6 (1d8+4/19-20)
Greatsword Routine: +6 (2d6+6/19-20)
CR 1 Average AC: 12
Longsword DPR: 6.85
Longsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 7.87
Greatsword DPR: 10.48
Greatsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 11.98
4th Level
Our Fighter: 20 Str (+1 level bump, acquired a +1 Str item), +4 BAB, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Masterwork Weapon
Longsword Routine: +11 (1d8+7/19-20)
Greatsword Routine: +11 (2d6+9/19-20)
CR 4 Average AC: 17
Longsword DPR: 9.27
Longsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 10.73
Greatsword DPR: 12.90
Greatsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 15.23
8th Level
Our Fighter: 22 Str (+1 level bump, advanced to a +2 Str item), +8 BAB, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon, Weapon Training +1
Longsword Routine: +18/+13 (1d8+10/19-20)
Greatsword Routine: +18/+13 (2d6+13/19-20)
CR 8 Average AC: 21
Longsword DPR: 24.22
Longsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 27.23
Greatsword DPR: 33.40
Greatsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 38.52
12th Level
Our Fighter: 26 Str (+1 level bump, advanced to a +5 Str item), +12 BAB, Power Attack, [Gtr] Weapon Focus, [Gtr] Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, +2 Weapon, Weapon Training +2, Boots of Speed (Haste)
Longsword Routine: +27/+27/+22/+17 (1d8+16/17-20)
Greatsword Routine: +27/+27/+22/+17 (2d6+20/17-20)
CR 12 Average AC: 27
Longsword DPR: 77.46
Longsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 85.53
Greatsword DPR: 102.01
Greatsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 117.04
16th Level
Our Fighter: 32 Str (+1 level bump, better Str item, inherent bonuses), +16 BAB, Power Attack, [Gtr] Weapon Focus, [Gtr] Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Critical Focus, +5 Weapon, Weapon Training +3, Gloves of Dueling (+2), Boots of Speed (Haste)
Longsword Routine: +40/+40/+35/+30/+25 (1d8+25/17-20)
Greatsword Routine: +40/+40/+35/+30/+25 (2d6+30/17-20)
CR 16 Average AC: 31
Longsword DPR: 159.73
Longsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 192.73
Greatsword DPR: 200.34
Greatsword DPR w/ Power Attack: 253.71
Percent increase for a longsword user at 1st level: 15%
Percent increase for a longsword user at 16th level: 20.7%
Percent increase for a greatsword user at 1st level: 14.3%
Percent increase for a greatsword user at 16th level: 26.6%
For uh, one feat. It's a pretty dramatic damage increase, and it gets stronger as you get to higher and higher levels, being worthwhile for one handeders and two handers. Considering the impact it has for being a single feat, I'd definitely call Power Attack standard.
And the returns get even stronger when you've got buffs making more of your attacks deeper in the auto-hit territory. Teamwork tends to make Power Attack even more necessary!
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Every roleplaying group is different, in mine at least this wouldn't fly. If I were to try and rationalize to my players why a random group of brigands "clearly an intelligent enemy." Were to use tactics designed to exploit an adventuring parties dynamic. Unless this particular group of brigands specialize in nicking adventuring parties.. But as I said each rp group is different, use what works for the entertainment of your players. If I had to take part in a group where for wearing robes I was being hunted my every opponent we meet, I'd do what most of my arcane casters do anyway- not wear robes. I'd stick to my explores outfit.
Why are the brigands also not keeping their spellcasters in the back? Have they never encountered spellcasters before (and thus gauged that they are an unpredictable commodity that needs to be dealt with?).
If the spellcasters are easy to pick out, and/or they've been seen using magic, you can bet I'm going to try to shut them down first. The Fighter is predictable. The Barbarian, predictable. What is that wizard going to do? Summon a horde of demons? Encase me in stone? Transform the steel floor I'm standing on into a spike pit? No Thanks.
If we can get the drop on them, the attack will start with shooting him with an arrow that has been Silenced.
Geek the mage first.
And of course, if you can, wait to attack them until they're sleeping. The fighters might not have their armor on, and the mages might have used up their spells for the day.
Likewise, whatever group we're coming up against is going to come after OUR mages, so guard them, and be prepared for similar tactics.
Doesn't that assume this random band of thugs/monsters has meta-gamed a bit, and has the same experience with class-based tactics as you/your party does? If your average encounter is an opposing group of adventurers, then sure. If it's cave-dwelling monsters or street ruffians, then why would they have anything like that?
So for some encounters, I'm sure it might make sense. But not for all, or even for a majority. Maybe 25-35% of the time.
It makes sense for other adventurers, trained soldiers, a monstrous horde fighting other competent groups, or those in a guild. It also makes sense for anyone with more than 3-4 class levels, unless they have never seen/studied how groups with class levels fight before.
In short, it makes sense for anyone who has ever fought against creatures in a mixed group, fought with creatures in a mixed group, watch creatures in a mixed group fight, or read about creatures in a mixed group fighting
"Geek The Mage" is a concept that's even prevalent in marvel comics. The X-Men actually design their various teams so that they have someone who can take on a telepath. Telepaths are the mage equivalent in X-Men, because there are so few mages, but telepaths fill a similar role. They're gods-damned dangerous.
One time I was running a campaign and the players were level 5 (no wizard), and I included a fight that was different from what the players had already faced. A CR Appropriate fight against Harpy Archers. The players just panicked and ran for cover. Apparently none of them thought to pick up ranged weapons for when they couldn't melee! Good times. lol
Fact is you are not going to always know who the casters are and there going to be times when it not practical to attack them first.But given knowledge and ability they should be prime targetsWhy? They arent more dangerous, in fact they generally do less damage. Sometimes their AC is lower, but they have other defenses that make up for that.I usually agree with you DrDeath, but this one I'll put some examples where the damage output isn't the thing to concern the enemy.
If a caster uses a spell that causes one of my buddies to fall down (sleep, command, hideous laughter, fear even) then he's a threat to me because in less than 6 seconds he took one combatant out without touching him. That could be me next.
If the caster uses hold person, or dominate or charm, again I've seen them do something that's directly dropped our combat numbers without touching a person. Dominate and charm might even have my own friends working against me.
Now those are cases where the caster does something and even non experienced combatants will realise they are a threat. It's a visual clue that doesn't need special skills to work out.
Does this make them instant targets? Not necessarily, but it does provide reason for them to be targeted without using metagame knowledge.
True- indeed sometimes the spellcaster is the obvious most dangerous guy on the team. No doubt. But in the case of a utility spellcaster, who buffs, and transports, ect, a lot of his "power" has been used before the combat even starts.
No way to tell he's actually the most useful member of the party, and even if you think that- no use dropping him now. The Greater Magic Weapon, Vestments, Haste etc he cast are already up, and taking him down won't do anything to win this combat.
Blasting is actually the weakest spellcaster. Buffing, Battlefield control, utility, etc are all far more powerful spellcasters.
Buff the heck out of the party's tank- hopefully before combat. Use Battlefield control spells to change the battlefield. Use Tport etc to get there fast.
The best spellcaster doesnt need showy magic during combat. He casts before combat, then maybe two spells (using a swift action) on Round One. Then, heck, you can go hide. Watch the fully buff tank go thru the foes like a hot knife thru butter- AND be the target.
Hover there, flying- Invisible, Mirror Image- or heck- even both if there's a shot they can See Invis.
"Take out the spellcaster!" You say. Well, hard to hit what you cant see, and if you wanted to take him out when he was most dangerous- it's too late now .
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For your information the standard blaster has:Magical Lineage-Fireball
Spell Hunter-Fireball
Dazing Spell
Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Varisian Spell Tattoo
Spell Focus (evocation)
G.Spell Focus (evocation)
Spell Perfection (fireball)Rod of Quickening/maximize.
Of Course if you really feel like ramping things up you can always grab things like:
Goblin fire Drum
or
Blood mage Initiate.
Maybe. And then if the foe is immune to fire, you can roast marshmallows I guess. Or if he just has real good spell resistance.
But in any case, this is weak sauce compared to a Batman Utility Wizard or Battlefield Control caster.
Blasting is the Deuce in the spellcasters armory.
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I'm a bit confused that you claim casters aren't a good first target due to their generally unimpressive damage output, and now you're talking about the other things they can do that are better. Which one do you actually believe? Because those seem like mutually exclusive claims to me. For the record, I think casters generally have better things to do than blast- but blasting can be fun and decently effective, if you specialize into it.
The missing puzzle piece not mentioned by PIXIE DUST is the Evocation (Admixture) subschool. It allows you to change the energy type of an evocation that deals acid, cold, fire, or electricity damage to one of the other three types. To my memory, there are no creatures immune to all 4, and the only ones I can think of with resistance or immunity to all 4 have about resist 10 or 15.
For context, here are a few benchmarks for what a focused evoker can do. Also because math is fun. :) Note that this is not fully optimized. There are additional things you can do to boost output, including the Fire Drum and and a sorcerer dip, but this keeps it relatively simple with a wizard focused on the iconic fireball. Starting with a 17 in Int as an Elf (net 19)...
Constant and Important
Traits: Metamagic Master & Magical Lineage (fireball)
5th Level
Intelligence: Int 22 (+1 stat bump, +2 item)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (Bonus), Spell Focus, Mage's Tattoo, Spell Specialization (fireball), Empower Spell (Bonus)
Versatility: Versatile Evocation 9/day (+2 if using Elf favored class bonus)
Primary Blasting Tools: empowered fireball (3rd level slot); deals 8d6*1.5+2 (average 44) DC 20 Reflex, +10 vs SR
Maximum Blasts/day (when fully invested in blasting): 3, or 4 with Bonded Oject
8th Level
Intelligence: Int 24 (+2 stat bump, +3 item)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (Bonus), Spell Focus, Mage's Tattoo, Spell Specialization (fireball), Empower Spell (Bonus), Intensify Spell
Versatility: Versatile Evocation 10/day (+4 if using Elf favored class bonus)
Primary Blasting Tools: empowered fireball (3rd level slot); deals 10d6*1.5+4 (average 56) DC 21 Reflex, +13 vs SR
intensified empowered fireball (4th level slot); deals 11d6*1.5+4 (average 61.75) DC 21 Reflex, +13 vs SR
Maximum Blasts/day: 9 (5 empowered fireballs, 4 intensified empowered fireballs), or 10 with Bonded Object
11th Level
Intelligence: Int 30 (+2 stat bump, +5 Inherent via planar binding or candle of invocation, +4 item)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (Bonus), Spell Focus, Mage's Tattoo, Spell Specialization (fireball), Empower Spell (Bonus), Intensify Spell, Spell Penetration, Dazing Spell (bonus), Greater Spell Focus
Versatility: Versatile Evocation 13/day (+5 if using Elf favored class bonus)
Primary Blasting Tools: intensified empowered fireball (4th level slot); deals 14d6*1.5+5 (average 78.5) DC 25 Reflex, +18 vs SR
intensified dazing fireball (5th level slot); deals 14d6+5 (average 54) DC 25 Reflex vs 3 rounds of dazing, +18 vs SR
Maximum Blasts/day: 9 (5 intensified empowered fireballs, 4 intensified dazing fireballs), or 10 with Bonded Object
Additionally, 6 3rd level slots available for minor blasts (54 average damage) and 3 5th level slots if there's nothing better to do with them
15th Level
Involves a lot of stuff to present, and it's getting late and I'm pretty tired. You have decent options due to Spell Perfection, and since your spells are still 3rd level lesser rods (such as Maximize) are on the table for amplifying them still. Single target numbers aren't that impressive (though still respectable), but area damage stays effective. Your strongest fireball (with a lesser maximize rod) looks like this:
Intensified empowered maximized quickened fireball (4th level slot); deals 90+(15d6*.5)+7 (average 123.25 damage) DC 28, +27 vs SR [+15 base, +4 Specialization, +2 Mage's Tattoo, +4 Spell Penetration & Greater, +2 Elf] as a swift action.
You can cast it without Quicken without using any rod charges, putting your average output when nova-ing at 246.5 before save reductions, with a very healthy save DC and lots of ammunition. Doesn't scale up a whole lot after this, but you do get more ammo. Without using any rod charges whatsoever, you can deal a respectable 209 damage reliably.
Alternatively, if you want to go more single target, you could swap to battering blast. At 15th level with Spell Perfection, Mage's Tattoo, and Spell Specialization, it would have a caster level of 21. Popping a Bead of Karma would put it at 25 for 10 minutes, in a pinch.
CL 21
Intensified battering blast: 4 touch attacks for 7d6 Force damage each, plus 7 at the end; performs a 21+Int+10/hit past 1st Bull Rush that forces a Reflex save against being knocked prone. 105 average damage.
Intensified empowered battering blast: 4 touch attacks for 7d6*1.5 Force damage each, plus 7 at the end; performs a 21+Int+10/hit past 1st Bull Rush that forces a Reflex save against being knocked prone. 154 average damage.
Intensified maximized empowered battering blast: 4 touch attacks for 42+(7d6*.5) Force damage each, plus 7 at the end; performs a 21+Int+10/hit past 1st Bull Rush that forces a Reflex save against being knocked prone. 217 average damage.
CL 25
Intensified battering blast: 5 touch attacks for 7d6 Force damage each, plus 7 at the end; performs a 21+Int+10/hit past 1st Bull Rush that forces a Reflex save against being knocked prone. 129.5 average damage.
Intensified empowered battering blast: 5 touch attacks for 7d6*1.5 Force damage each, plus 7 at the end; performs a 21+Int+10/hit past 1st Bull Rush that forces a Reflex save against being knocked prone. 190.75 average damage.
Intensified maximized empowered battering blast: 5 touch attacks for 42+(7d6*.5) Force damage each, plus 7 at the end; performs a 21+Int+10/hit past 1st Bull Rush that forces a Reflex save against being knocked prone. 278.25 average damage.
Easier said than done. I never walk around in robes as a caster unless I'm wearing a magic item. I don't cast unless I know I'm going to win on the first cast. Otherwise, I wait until the big sword guy is in battle. By that time it's too late for them to get to me. I also like walking around disguised as a peasant or porter in my group. Makes it look like I'm the least threatening individual in the group.
As a DM knowledgeable enemies definitely track the casters down first. Take the casters out is job one.
[
For your information the standard blaster has:Magical Lineage-Fireball
Spell Hunter-Fireball
Dazing Spell
Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Varisian Spell Tattoo
Spell Focus (evocation)
G.Spell Focus (evocation)
Spell Perfection (fireball)Rod of Quickening/maximize.
Of Course if you really feel like ramping things up you can always grab things like:
Goblin fire Drum
or
Blood mage Initiate.Maybe. And then if the foe is immune to fire, you can roast marshmallows I guess. Or if he just has real good spell resistance.
But in any case, this is weak sauce compared to a Batman Utility Wizard or Battlefield Control caster.
Blasting is the Deuce in the spellcasters armory.
That is what Admixture is for...
And Admixture Wizard is rarely caught with nothing to do...
Oh and short of straight immunity, even a lot of enemies with obscenely high Fire Resist will have a hard time surviving a Blaster Caster. The damage output of an optimized Blaster is probably the dumbest thing I have seen (that or the stupid double barrel pistol dual wielding gunslnger...)
I'm a bit confused that you claim casters aren't a good first target due to their generally unimpressive damage output, and now you're talking about the other things they can do that are better. Which one do you actually believe? Because those seem like mutually exclusive claims to me. For the record, I think casters generally have better things to do than blast- but blasting can be fun and decently effective, if you specialize into it.
Because, many of those "better' things are done before combat starts, or are not directly attributable to the spellcaster, unless you have spellcraft. Or See Invis as a Invisble spellcaster can do a LOT of stuff and stay invis. Not to mention- he makes the Skilled PC invis too.
The fact that (for example) the spellcaster has cast Greater Magic Weapon in the morning will not be known and even if the kill the spellcaster, it still stays up.
Yes, Blasters can be fun. I stay away from them, since i believe the best Team is just that- a Team. And what does the tank do? He does mucho DPR and absorbs DPR. Why step on his toes and do Damage yourself, when you're better off Buffing him (or the whole party) or casting Battlefield control spells.
Divine casters are just as necessary, but the fact that the cleric raised the Fighter the day before and is thus invaluable will not be known, generally. In any case, they have excellent defenses.
[
For your information the standard blaster has:Magical Lineage-Fireball
Spell Hunter-Fireball
Dazing Spell
Empower Spell
Intensify Spell
Varisian Spell Tattoo
Spell Focus (evocation)
G.Spell Focus (evocation)
Spell Perfection (fireball)Rod of Quickening/maximize.
Of Course if you really feel like ramping things up you can always grab things like:
Goblin fire Drum
or
Blood mage Initiate.Maybe. And then if the foe is immune to fire, you can roast marshmallows I guess. Or if he just has real good spell resistance.
But in any case, this is weak sauce compared to a Batman Utility Wizard or Battlefield Control caster.
Blasting is the Deuce in the spellcasters armory.
That is what Admixture is for...
And Admixture Wizard is rarely caught with nothing to do...
Oh and short of straight immunity, even a lot of enemies with obscenely high Fire Resist will have a hard time surviving a Blaster Caster. The damage output of an optimized Blaster is probably the dumbest thing I have seen (that or the stupid double barrel pistol dual wielding gunslnger...)
I didnt see Admixture in that list. But in any case, you have now spent all your feats on Offensive spells, and are doing a lot of damage in a very showy way- making yourself a glass cannon with a big target on you.
EXACTLY the spellcaster that the foes should focus on. Thus- a dead spellcaster. How much damage do you do @ -37hp? ;-)
Besides, what do you do if the foe has really good SR?
I didnt see Admixture in that list. But in any case, you have now spent all your feats on Offensive spells, and are doing a lot of damage in a very showy way- making yourself a glass cannon with a big target on you.
EXACTLY the spellcaster that the foes should focus on. Thus- a dead spellcaster. How much damage do you do @ -37hp? ;-)
Besides, what do you do if the foe has really good SR?
I agree with SR being an issue; I'd probably find room for Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen personally. That aside, it's hard to make a one trick caster. Sure you spent all your feats to pump up Fireball, but at the end of the day you still know tons of other spells. If your primary plan, blow s~%! up, isn't applicable (perhaps because of SR) there is nothing stopping you from just pulling out a completely different series of tricks to adapt... unless you are the type of "blaster" who thinks that as a sorcerer you need to spend all your spells known on endless variations of roll 1d6 per level, reflex for half.
Why do you think that doing those things out of combat is mutually exclusive with being a blaster? If it doesn't stop you from using short term buffs and control spells, it can't possibly prevent you from blasting.