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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Primalist for the Bloodrager yet. Being a Qingong-style "Swap out whatever you want" archetype makes it very powerful.
This. There is no reason not to always be a bloodrager (primalist), the archetype even fits the core theme of the class so it's not even a problem with the fluff.
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The Mastermind archetype for the Investigator is the same way. It's mechanics actually make it better at being an investigator (Can use inspiration on more social skills) while not really trading away anything.
There's the fact that it keeps you from taking Empiricist (which is fantastic...and would be my vote for a 'must take' Archetype on Investigator, though even then you only grab it if you don't give a damn about poisons). Plus the losing out on Swift Alchemy actually hurts some concepts (as does losing out on Trapfinding...though that one less so). It also ups the cost in Talents to get almost every skill freely usable with Inspiration (since you can get almost everything Investigators don't start with with only Expanded Inspiration and Underworld Inspiration, but also need Inspired Intelligence to re-grab Spellcraft and Linguistics as a Mastermind).
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Primalist for the Bloodrager yet. Being a Qingong-style "Swap out whatever you want" archetype makes it very powerful.This. There is no reason not to always be a bloodrager (primalist), the archetype even fits the core theme of the class so it's not even a problem with the fluff.
There's never wanting to ditch any Bloodline stuff. Which is actually gonna be pretty common for some kinds of Bloodragers. Some of those Bloodlines are very nice indeed all the way through.
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Unsworn Shaman. Witch hexes outperform 1st-level spirit abilities to a laughable degree, allowing the unsworn to actually contribute to a party at 1st level. The hexes are wandering, meaning you technically have /all/ the witch hexes at first level, just with limited slots to prepare them.
At 6th level, when you get your second wandering spirit, you've traded a single hex slot to have all your hexes be wandering (with access to the full witch hex list) and to have both spirits be wandering, so your whole build can change on a daily basis. Getting access to all the things later is better than access to one of the things early.
Speaking of which, unsworn gets greater and true spirit abilities two levels later than normal shaman, but gets them as wandering spirits, for which normal has to wait a further two levels. Losing 4 hex slots and the manifestation capstone are the only real downsides, but with six wandering hexes and dual true wandering spirits, I don't think any unsworn shaman will be that broken up.
Sacred Fist... plain better. I could argue that even for non-fist using it will be better as long as is a "monk" weapon cause Flurry will always scale FULL BAB which is always better than Failpriest 3/4 BAB.
You can use the style bonus feats to get crane style or turtle style for defense since you will be fighting most of the time One handed anyway, or you could just attack 9 times with a monk weapon 2-handed... you will only get 1 time str bonus but you will get the full 1 to 3 power attack bonus counting as a FULL bab class(which works wonders for critical feats too which you can get often attacking 9 times with a 17-20 weapon).
Unless you want to play some gimmick 15 minutes workday whip-wielding failpriest build, the Sacred Fist will ALWAYS be better.
Plus it's easy for them to pick up crusader's flurry which opens up some neat options. I've always wanted to flurry a scythe.
Dervish dance a scimitar while flurrying?
Wait, we can flurry the scythe? Brb acquiring Void Scythe and Death Blessing.
Warsighted oracle is probably the best option for melee oracles. giving up all but two of your revelations for changable bonus feats is well worth it for some builds. Its even cobinable with dual cursed oracle so you can get those two extra revelations befire you decide to take extra revelation.
@Deadmanwalking
Mastermind’s Inspiration (Ex): A mastermind can use
inspiration on any Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge, or
skill checks without spending a use of inspiration. This
ability alters inspiration.
Because of the way it is written it doesn't seem to actually replace the list that a base Investigator would. It doesn't say "These skills replace the skills an investigator may inspire" just that it "alters inspiration."
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@Deadmanwalking
Because of the way it is written it doesn't seem to actually replace the list that a base Investigator would. It doesn't say "These skills replace the skills an investigator may inspire" just that it "alters inspiration."Mastermind’s Inspiration (Ex): A mastermind can use
inspiration on any Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge, or
skill checks without spending a use of inspiration. This
ability alters inspiration.
Hmm. Perhaps you're right, though I'm pretty sure replacing the default list was the way that was meant to work. That ability is clearly in need of some serious editing, however (I'm absolutely sure that it isn't intended to apply to all skill checks),which makes it seriously unclear what's up with that. And besides, the rest of my points stand regardless.
The archtypes I've liked the most so far are the Crossblooded/Untouchable Rager archtypes. Gain two bloodlines with a small penalty to Will saves (which gets canceled out with Greater Rage and Mighty Rage), and lose the very VERY limited spell casting for spell resistance that becomes permanent at level 14?
Please, sir, can I has some more?
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Am I the only person completely in love with the Captain Ameri... Err... "Shield Champion" archetype?
It may not be "the best" possible option, but it's a fun gimmick and near as I can tell from my first skim through the Brawler archetypes it lets you do that gimmick well enough.
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Am I the only person completely in love with the Captain Ameri... Err... "Shield Champion" archetype?
It may not be "the best" possible option, but it's a fun gimmick and near as I can tell from my first skim through the Brawler archetypes it lets you do that gimmick well enough.
Totally. Its almost like the build came up on the boards so many times that someone had to do the Captain Andoran archetype.
Haven't read the guide, but this mutated fighter is hilarious from what I can tell.
Totally martial, fighter class... Is only fixed by turning him into monster instead of a ordinary person who's badass nonetheless.
Fighters, from what I can tell from this forum, will become just another magic class- no mundane, I just grow wings through magical mutating over time.
Naturally, this is the proper fix to a mundane martial- make him non-mundane.
This kinda kills a fighter for me, honestly.
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Haven't read the guide, but this mutated fighter is hilarious from what I can tell.
Totally martial, fighter class... Is only fixed by turning him into monster instead of a ordinary person who's badass nonetheless.
Fighters, from what I can tell from this forum, will become just another magic class- no mundane, I just grow wings through magical mutating over time.
Naturally, this is the proper fix to a mundane martial- make him non-mundane.
This kinda kills a fighter for me, honestly.
If that's no good for you, The Lore Warden Martial Master is a solid archetype combination.
A piece of pie for everyone.
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I mean, I like the archetype, but don't like the designation of being the "fix" for fighter.
It's kinda, from my sight, more an alchemist with better weapon skills.
Neat idea, don't even mind the concept of playing one, but it doesn't feel like a fighter anymore to me.
But, as you said, a piece of pie for everyone.
No matter what you do, there will be someone who doesn't like it.
The archtypes I've liked the most so far are the Crossblooded/Untouchable Rager archtypes. Gain two bloodlines with a small penalty to Will saves (which gets canceled out with Greater Rage and Mighty Rage), and lose the very VERY limited spell casting for spell resistance that becomes permanent at level 14?
Please, sir, can I has some more?
Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.
Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.
Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.
I mean, I like the archetype, but don't like the designation of being the "fix" for fighter.
It's kinda, from my sight, more an alchemist with better weapon skills.
Neat idea, don't even mind the concept of playing one, but it doesn't feel like a fighter anymore to me.
But, as you said, a piece of pie for everyone.
No matter what you do, there will be someone who doesn't like it.
I don't know that I would go that far, the Mutation Warrior is still much more of a Fighter than an Alchemist. You still have weapon training, bravery, tons of bonus feats, and the fighter chasis, while the mutagen and a couple mutagen-related discoveries are the only thing alchemist brings.
That said, if part of what you like about Fighters is their mundanity/lack of weird magic powers, then the mutation warrior obviously won't satisfy you.
There's the fact that it keeps you from taking Empiricist (which is fantastic...and would be my vote for a 'must take' Archetype on Investigator, though even then you only grab it if you don't give a damn about poisons). Plus the losing out on Swift Alchemy actually hurts some concepts
Yeah. That's a problem with Investigator archetypes in general though, all of them (except infiltrator) trades out swift alchemy, which means you can't combine very well and can't really end up with a must have since they have several good archetypes and the only ones you can combine are infiltrator and sleuth or steel hound.
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I think a lot of people talking up the exploiter wizard are not realizing how badly it hurts to lose 1 spell at each level is essentially...
You mean losing 1 spell at each level...and still being ahead of the regular Arcanist?
If you're going the natural attack route as a Bloodrager, then the Rageshaper archetype is no contest. A half-orc draconic bloodrager could rock 3 natural attacks (bite + 2 claws) for most of his career until he turns into a large dragon @ level 16, and gets even more attacks.
Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.
Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.
"Unlike normal spell resistance, the untouchable rager's spell resistance cannot be voluntarily lowered. As long as the untouchable is bloodraging, the spell resistance is persistent, and can only be lowered by ending the bloodrage."
Wow, actually, it looks like you can be an Untouchable Spelleater Primalist Bloodrager....love it!
"Unlike normal spell resistance, the untouchable rager's spell resistance cannot be voluntarily lowered. As long as the untouchable is bloodraging, the spell resistance is persistent, and can only be lowered by ending the bloodrage."
Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.
Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.
There some particular reason you felt the need to quote the full text of a rule that doesn't contradict anything I said?
There some particular reason you felt the need to quote the full text of a rule that doesn't contradict anything I said?"Unlike normal spell resistance, the untouchable rager's spell resistance cannot be voluntarily lowered. As long as the untouchable is bloodraging, the spell resistance is persistent, and can only be lowered by ending the bloodrage."
Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.
Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.
Oops, missed that you were talking about lvl 14+ And raising/lowering your Spell Resistance.
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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Primalist for the Bloodrager yet. Being a Qingong-style "Swap out whatever you want" archetype makes it very powerful.This. There is no reason not to always be a bloodrager (primalist), the archetype even fits the core theme of the class so it's not even a problem with the fluff.
The reason is its banned in PFS....my bloodrager is very sad about that:(
I really like the Rageshaper archetype. I don't think sanctuary is quite that useful in most parties, anyway, as you'd rarely want to hit your allies, boosted save or no, and improved uncanny dodge is... meh. Trading those two abilities out for better natural weapons and longer-lasting transmutation spells seems like a bit of an upgrade.
Also, and I wouldn't quite consider it an upgrade, I am excited by the unlettered arcanist archetype, even though it uses the somewhat less versatile witch spell list.
I want to like the Bolt Ace archetype too as this might work to get some of the feat tax out of the way, but this just looks like some glaring oversights with no new proficiencies for Repeaters and a Gunsmith feat that doesn't get traded out.
As for the rest, Martial Master, Steel Hound, Empiricist from what I can see would be welcome additions. Was hoping Underground Chemist would have been one of them, but doesn't look like it. Another one I want mandatory is Inspired Blade, but I would like to expand it to a Dueling Sword as well as a Rapier.
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The archtypes I've liked the most so far are the Crossblooded/Untouchable Rager archtypes. Gain two bloodlines with a small penalty to Will saves (which gets canceled out with Greater Rage and Mighty Rage), and lose the very VERY limited spell casting for spell resistance that becomes permanent at level 14?
Please, sir, can I has some more?
Actually, I find the Untouchable Rager a very weak archetype. Spell resistance is very much double-edged sword, since it blocks buffing and healing spells from your allies. I would argue that getting it on permanently at level 14 is actually a net loss for the bloodrager; since since you go from being able to raise/lower your spell resistance as a free action (entering/exiting bloodrage) to needing to burn your standard action to lower SR, and then it stays down until your next turn.
Not to mention that the price of the SR is losing your spellcasting, which is a huge cost. Bloodrager has some very nice self-buffing spells.
Also, worth noting that you can't combine Untouchable and Crossblooded, since they both modify bloodline bonus spells.
Here's a nifty "spells are for the weak" blodrager build: Untouchable Primalist Bloodrager with the Arcane bloodline, trade Arcane Bloodage at fourth for Superstition and Witch Hunter, Trade Caster Scourge at twelve for Spellsunder and Eater of Magic. Use your bonus feat for Disruptive, Improved Initiatie, Iron Will, Spellbreaker and Combat Reflexes, in whichever order you want. Watch as anything with casting cries as your stupid high saves and spell resistance and ability to reroll failed saves make you as close as immune to magic as the game allows, while breaking enemy spells and having extra damage against casters and being always hasted. Might change Eater of Magic for Ghost Rager if you consider the bonus to touch AC is better than rerolling saves or if you can get rerolls from somewhere else.
Re, Untouchable SR: Does it stack with other SR, like the dwarven racial SR option (5+lvl)?
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To be fair... SR is awful for player characters. It'll hurt you more often than it'll help you.
Re, Untouchable SR: Does it stack with other SR, like the dwarven racial SR option (5+lvl)?SR never stacks.
Awww.....that could have been SO awesome!
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To be fair... SR is awful for player characters. It'll hurt you more often than it'll help you.
Yeah, in most circumstances SR is a downgrade. It's a feature I always look to trade away with monks, it's the biggest reason for a druid not to take Celestial Servant for their companion, and it's a big rreason to avoid races with solid SR unless you plan on being the one casting buff spells. You're almost always going to have around a 20% higher chance of blocking beneficial spells than harmful ones, and there tend to be much better options for avoiding spells and effects (the monk for example already has superior saves and other class abilities that render SR little more than an emergency parachute, but a constant hindrance).
I already love the Bolt Ace and go to bed every night with warm, happy, thoughts about how they might clarify its proficiencies and feats any day now :)
The Bolt Ace is a champ. I'm already revisiting some old double-crossbow builds to see how I can revivify them with this new option. It'll be nice to make that weapon cool without needing three classes and 2 archetypes.
I don't even mind if it keeps the firearm proficencies; having a sidearm with the scatter property and a few alchemical cartridges could be handy and actually fits the idea of a world where guns exist but are extremely rare really well; if firearms were really so unheard of someone with access to one wouldn't be running around firing it off like Yosemite Sam, he'd have something like a crossbow that he uses for the day to day stuff and the firearm for when he really needs to make an impression or do something unexpected.
Nobody mentioned Spell Sage yet? I saw it and went holy #$%@. 1/day adding 4 caster levels to a spell? (3 magic missiles or a 5d4 burning hands a level 1!) Able to cast spontaneously ANY Bard, Cleric or Druid spell for the cost of two prepared spells of that level and extra time? Sure, you lose arcane bond and your school, but having your wizard be able to raise the dead?
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Nobody mentioned Spell Sage yet? I saw it and went holy #$%@. 1/day adding 4 caster levels to a spell? (3 magic missiles or a 5d4 burning hands a level 1!) Able to cast spontaneously ANY Bard, Cleric or Druid spell for the cost of two prepared spells of that level and extra time? Sure, you lose arcane bond and your school, but having your wizard be able to raise the dead?
Eh.
Spell Sage is just solid. It's not OMGWTFBBQ like the Exploiter Wizard with Quick Study.
If you really wanna make amazing use of the Spell Surge, use it with Greater Magic Weapon for your martial or something.
There is also the fact that if you can cast cleric and druid spells, you can use their spell completion items. Being able to use CLW wands and also being able to use (and create) divine scrolls for both cleric and druid spells? Yes please.
There is also the fact that if you can cast cleric and druid spells, you can use their spell completion items. Being able to use CLW wands and also being able to use (and create) divine scrolls for both cleric and druid spells? Yes please.
He doesn't get permanent access to the lists, he can just once per day duplicate the effect from a spell on those lists. Being able to do this once per day and a few more times per day at higher level us good but not broken. The way I read it he can't even use the ability to use wands, but if he could it would only be once per day at level 1 to 5 and twice at level 6, etc.
Also dc for wands and IMD is only 20 so by mid levels "the wand thing" isn't even an issue.
The item creation abilities are hardly more powerful than the item creation possibilities without this class feature.
Unsworn Shaman. Witch hexes outperform 1st-level spirit abilities to a laughable degree, allowing the unsworn to actually contribute to a party at 1st level. The hexes are wandering, meaning you technically have /all/ the witch hexes at first level, just with limited slots to prepare them.
At 6th level, when you get your second wandering spirit, you've traded a single hex slot to have all your hexes be wandering (with access to the full witch hex list) and to have both spirits be wandering, so your whole build can change on a daily basis. Getting access to all the things later is better than access to one of the things early.
Speaking of which, unsworn gets greater and true spirit abilities two levels later than normal shaman, but gets them as wandering spirits, for which normal has to wait a further two levels. Losing 4 hex slots and the manifestation capstone are the only real downsides, but with six wandering hexes and dual true wandering spirits, I don't think any unsworn shaman will be that broken up.
Not quite automatic though as Speaker For The Past is very good. You also miss out on Shaman hexes with Unsworn, including the Lore Spirit hex Arcane Enlightment.
To be fair... SR is awful for player characters. It'll hurt you more often than it'll help you.
Until 14th level you just have to do the same as a Superstitious Barbarian and delay to get your buffs before raging. Between 14th and 16th you have more of a problem but you have enough wealth to buy some utility items and had 14 levels to prepare. At 16th level you gain Form of the Dragon, giving you access to fly, swim, burrow, darkvision and resitance to any element you might need.
To be fair... SR is awful for player characters. It'll hurt you more often than it'll help you.Until 14th level you just have to do the same as a Superstitious Barbarian and delay to get your buffs before raging.
Yeah, but Superstition doesn't eat your actions. Nor does it block (Su) abilities, meaning Channel energy still works just fine.
Maybe the Bloodrager is a Barbarian+ (I dunno. Maybe it's), but SR really sucks (for PCs, that is).
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Not quite automatic though as Speaker For The Past is very good. You also miss out on Shaman hexes with Unsworn, including the Lore Spirit hex Arcane Enlightment.Unsworn Shaman. Witch hexes outperform 1st-level spirit abilities to a laughable degree, allowing the unsworn to actually contribute to a party at 1st level. The hexes are wandering, meaning you technically have /all/ the witch hexes at first level, just with limited slots to prepare them.
It also depends on how much you like your primary sprit. My character is a Heavens Shaman. For both thematic and mechanical reasons I'd pretty much ALWAYS take this spirit anyways. Given that, Unsworn is a bad deal for me
Sacred Fist... plain better. I could argue that even for non-fist using it will be better as long as is a "monk" weapon cause Flurry will always scale FULL BAB which is always better than Failpriest 3/4 BAB.
You can use the style bonus feats to get crane style or turtle style for defense since you will be fighting most of the time One handed anyway, or you could just attack 9 times with a monk weapon 2-handed... you will only get 1 time str bonus but you will get the full 1 to 3 power attack bonus counting as a FULL bab class(which works wonders for critical feats too which you can get often attacking 9 times with a 17-20 weapon).
Unless you want to play some gimmick 15 minutes workday whip-wielding failpriest build, the Sacred Fist will ALWAYS be better.
I'm a monk noob. How do you get 9 attacks? Flurry = 7 + Ki pool = 8.
Where does the last come from? Thanks in advance!|
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Sacred Fist... plain better. I could argue that even for non-fist using it will be better as long as is a "monk" weapon cause Flurry will always scale FULL BAB which is always better than Failpriest 3/4 BAB.
You can use the style bonus feats to get crane style or turtle style for defense since you will be fighting most of the time One handed anyway, or you could just attack 9 times with a monk weapon 2-handed... you will only get 1 time str bonus but you will get the full 1 to 3 power attack bonus counting as a FULL bab class(which works wonders for critical feats too which you can get often attacking 9 times with a 17-20 weapon).
Unless you want to play some gimmick 15 minutes workday whip-wielding failpriest build, the Sacred Fist will ALWAYS be better.
I'm a monk noob. How do you get 9 attacks? Flurry = 7 + Ki pool = 8.
Where does the last come from? Thanks in advance!
He's probably thinking a haste effect for the last attack.
Sacred Fist... plain better. I could argue that even for non-fist using it will be better as long as is a "monk" weapon cause Flurry will always scale FULL BAB which is always better than Failpriest 3/4 BAB.
You can use the style bonus feats to get crane style or turtle style for defense since you will be fighting most of the time One handed anyway, or you could just attack 9 times with a monk weapon 2-handed... you will only get 1 time str bonus but you will get the full 1 to 3 power attack bonus counting as a FULL bab class(which works wonders for critical feats too which you can get often attacking 9 times with a 17-20 weapon).
Unless you want to play some gimmick 15 minutes workday whip-wielding failpriest build, the Sacred Fist will ALWAYS be better.
I'm a monk noob. How do you get 9 attacks? Flurry = 7 + Ki pool = 8.
Where does the last come from? Thanks in advance!
Haste.
Not quite automatic though as Speaker For The Past is very good. You also miss out on Shaman hexes with Unsworn, including the Lore Spirit hex Arcane Enlightment.
You can't take the non-spirit Shaman hexes like Fury and Fetish, but hexes from your wandering spirits are free game once you get said spirits at level 2. Speaker For The Past is a matter of taste, I guess. I've never played an oracle that didn't run out of good revelations later on, and Ancestor is one of the less inspired mysteries IMO (though Time is always fun).
Primalist Bloodrager... Because why the f$$* not? There are no downsides at all.
Primalist Bloodrager... Because why the f+*~ not? There are no downsides at all.
Any archetype that lets you pick what you lose and what you gain is hard not to like. Though the Primalist isn't nearly as bad as the Quingong Monk in that regard, since Bloodrager bloodlines are full of stuff I'd hate to give up, while the Monk has a lot of lackluster abilities.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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"Eldritch Blade: A blade adept with this exploit uses her
caster level instead of her class level for the purpose of
advancing her bonded sword’s powers."I guess that does make for a pretty solid Eldritch Knight.
It's almost as if someone were thinking about moving into Eldritch Knight when they wrote it....
It's best to wait and to take Extra Exploit (eldritch blade) as your 9th level feat. The blade's effective level lags behind the magus by 2 levels. That's mitigated a lot by the more flexible nature of the arcane reservoir.