Archetypes from Advanced class guide that are "Mandatory"


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Steelbreaker archetype for Brawlers looks pretty cool to me. Going for combat maneuver builds, its not great, but for a straight damage build, you get no DR issues[although with Pummeling Style this isn't as good], and a free +2 attack, or you get +1/2 level to AC&Reflex Saves. Seems like a great trade most of the time.


Does the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers actually work?

Quote:

Panache and Deeds (Ex): At 4th level, a daring champion

gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the
following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune
parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.
This ability replaces expert trainer
Quote:

Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1

panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike
precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee
weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding
her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt.

I clipped off some of the stuff later in Precise Strike that adds more conditions to it, but there's no feature that calls out "use Cavalier level as Swashbuckler level for the purposes of these deeds" that I've been able to find. I assume that wasn't the designer intent, but unless I'm missing something RAW that deed doesn't do anything for a Daring Champion unless they dip into Swashbuckler itself for some reason.


icehawk333 wrote:
Naturally, this is the proper fix to a mundane martial- make him non-mundane.

The trouble with that position is that the fighter has to go up levels, just like everyone else. It just about works at 1st or 2nd level, but by 10th level nobody is by any reasonable definition "totally mundane".

glass.


RPZip wrote:

Does the Daring Champion archetype for Cavaliers actually work?

Quote:

Panache and Deeds (Ex): At 4th level, a daring champion

gains the swashbuckler’s panache class feature, along with the
following swashbuckler deeds: dodging panache, opportune
parry and riposte, precise strike, and swashbuckler initiative.
This ability replaces expert trainer
Quote:

Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, while she has at least 1

panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike
precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee
weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding
her swashbuckler level to the damage dealt.
I clipped off some of the stuff later in Precise Strike that adds more conditions to it, but there's no feature that calls out "use Cavalier level as Swashbuckler level for the purposes of these deeds" that I've been able to find. I assume that wasn't the designer intent, but unless I'm missing something RAW that deed doesn't do anything for a Daring Champion unless they dip into Swashbuckler itself for some reason.

Good point but the intent is so clear I am not sure it would ever get clarified beyond a developer popping into a thread with something like, "you know what we meant." ... Or maybe not, I suppose PFS couldn't make use of that.


It's not a point of having intent clear. It's not paizo problem you can't read the rule correctly. Every time a class feature from another class is given to a class because of an archetype, it's clear that you replace the name or the original class by the name of the new class. The same way a sacred fist that get flurry of blow gets to use it as a monk.


I know a lot of people are gushing over the daring champion cavalier, but honestly I'm still amazed by the 'inspired blade' swashbuckler. I mean, good lord...13-20 crit range (granted, it only occurs at level 20...but dear lord...NOTHING in the game can do that!)

I'm also a big fan of the mutagenic mauler and wild child archetypes (which stack by the way) for the brawler archetype.

I mean, think about it: giving up a few bonus feats for an ANIMAL COMPANION...the ability to use skirmisher tricks (that can be swapped out no less)...and also gives more tricks to ur animal companion.

In addition, the mutagenic mauler trades out martial flexibility and a small AC bonus for a VERY powerful mutagen and a several useful discovery options.

I mean, sweet mercy that's strong.


Those are hardly mandatory. Mutagenic Mauler is much worse at combat maneuvers and Wild Child, its pretty good but Animal Companions bog down combat so its hard from a MUST HAVE.


Ironic really. In my experience, the things that typically bog down combat are combat maneuvers, as it is normally just better to hit something rather than trip, bull rush, or grapple it. On the other hand, animal companions should not slow down combat in the slightest (at least in the hands of experienced players). In addition, there are of new feats in the advance class guide (evolved companion and spirit's gift anyone) that can really power up ur animal companion to make it a much more effective partner.


Oy, those were two separate claims:

- Mutagenic Mauler is not strictly better than base.
- Wild Child is not strictly better than base either.

At least not in the way the Empiricist is better than the base Investigator, or Sanctified Slayer than the Slayer itself.

Contributor

Secret Wizard wrote:

Oy, those were two separate claims:

- Mutagenic Mauler is not strictly better than base.
- Wild Child is not strictly better than base either.

At least not in the way the Empiricist is better than the base Investigator, or Sanctified Slayer than the Slayer itself.

As someone who adores the Sanctified Slayer (and is actively playing one), its hardly better than the Slayer class.

1) Sanctified Slayers only get five slayer talents over the course of their careers, and the first one doesn't kick in until Level 8. Most of them are mid-game to end-game abilities.

2) Sanctified Slayers cannot select Advanced Talents, of which slayers have several excellent options (such as assassinate).

3) Sanctified Slayers don't receive Stalker, so their Favored Target bonus can't be applied to as much as the actual Slayer.

4) The "+1 to slayer class abilities" function of studied target does absolutely nothing for the inquisitor, as they can't pick any slayer talents that requiring saving throw DCs.

5) Sanctified Slayers have a lesser base attack bonus than the actual slayer. This can be partially mitigated through spells like divine favor, but the inquisitor isn't exactly brimming with spell slots.

It is a very good archetype, but "better?" Only if you absolutely need to have divine spellcasting, I suppose, but the inquisitor archetype doesn't remove the slayer's very clear strengths over the archetype, so it can hardly be called mandatory.

Dark Archive

Sanctified Slayer gives up Judgment (which comes a few times a day, at best) and gets Studied Strike (Studied Target? I keep getting them mixed up), Sneak Attack and Slayer Talents. I'd say it's pretty much a straight upgrade over normal Inquisitor.

Is it better than a full Slayer? Well, the Inquisitor spell list is pretty awesome. I can definitely see the argument being made that it's much more versatile, though not quite as good at straight fighting.


Are we really arguing that advanced talents and quarry are better than 6th level casting and domains?

Seems pretty obvious who wins this contest really.


Slayer Talents overall are bad except for a handful of things. And all of those good things are Ranger style feats, bleh prerequisite feats for better stuff, Evasion, or Opportunist.

It also irritates me that Slayer gets a restricted list of Rogue Talents. It's great to know that everything for Rogue from any current side book will never be accessible to the Slayer RAW no matter how fitting because each individual talent has to be marked with "and Slayer too." Totally needed though because Rogue Talents are just so good.

Contributor

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anlashok wrote:

Are we really arguing that advanced talents and quarry are better than 6th level casting and domains?

Seems pretty obvious who wins this contest really.

I'm actually playing a kitsune sanctified slayer in a party with an elf slayer in Wrath of the Righteous, and you're right. It is pretty obvious who wins this contest.

I win every out-of-combat challenge. I bluff our way through social encounters, I figure out most of the esoteric lore (especially in regards to which monsters we're fighting), and I come up with most of our party's long-term plans. I sneak into everything with my invisibility spells, I help our oracle heal the party (and sometimes save his life), and I rely messages back and forth from our group to our army. I can do this because I have plenty of class features that buff my skill bonuses, a selection of great spells that is mostly designed around social combat, infiltration, and limited self-buff spells, and an awesome domain that enhances my maneuverability.

But our slayer kills everything. Everything. It just dies. Last combat, our party slayer decimated this poor barbarian warlord for 200 damage in a single round. He got off a few excellent crits and most of his bow attacks hit. It was glorious to behold. He can do this because he's got three feats over me, ignores prerequisites on those three feats, and has a base attack bonus that two or three points higher than mine, so he hits more. The only damage-dealing option I have over him is my bane, and with only 10 rounds per day (Level 7 + Extended Bane), I don't always use bane. Especially since using my studied target requires the same action as bane.

In short, we're both pretty invaluable in our own way.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
The only damage-dealing option I have over him is my bane

So you're skipping out on solo tactics, buff spells and offensive domains/inquisitions?

Seems like an iffy comparison then.


anlashok wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
The only damage-dealing option I have over him is my bane

So you're skipping out on solo tactics, buff spells and offensive domains/inquisitions?

Seems like an iffy comparison then.

I was just thinking that... Anger inquisition, Rage subdomain, divine favor, Outflank. I intend on making a sanctified slayer pretty soon and I plan on doing some pretty ridiculous damage. Also. A bane baldric is a lovely thing to have around if you feel you're hurting on bane rounds.


The Sanctified Slayer is pretty baller.

Not better than the Slayer except in the general sense that casters > martials. It is not a better Slayer than the Slayer, even if it is technically better overall IMO.


After looking it over more, I can say that I feel the two fighter archetypes are a must. There may be other niche builds, but this combo seems to just be vastly more effective than every other option.
Sample Build Progression


I like the build, though I personally would take much of the emphasis off Intimidation and instead of Infuse Mutagen I would take something like the heal.


Insain Dragoon wrote:
I like the build, though I personally would take much of the emphasis off Intimidation and instead of Infuse Mutagen I would take something like the heal.

Definitely some wiggle room there. I really like closing that one potential weakness of mutagen.

An MMM warrior with 13 wis or even a range focus would have very different combos and play-styles.

Shadow Lodge

Weapon training is still useful and sometimes necessary for some combos, such as the sohei/fighter combo. Plus it has really good item support.

Martial master however is waay more versatile and probably much better for experimented players.


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ElementalXX wrote:
Martial master however is waay more versatile and probably much better for experimented players.

You really can do a lot with it.

By 9 if you grab critical focus in a permanent slot, you can as a swift action gain a critical effect feat. You could decide to do that after confirming the critical or right before depending on exactly how that works.

Situational feats like lunge, blind-fight, great cleave, among many more are very good to be able to grab as needed.

Player playing skill starts being just as important as player character building skill when playing a martial. Even when not up for all of that, a fighter of this kind can just drink their mutagen, power attack, smack things and still be just as effective as 90% of pre-ACG fighters.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Blade Adept is for Prestige Classes plz.

But since you'd stop advancing your exploits and your blade by prestiging...

Unless you meant it should have been a prestige class not an archetype, in which case I agree.

It's been said that the blades scales off caster level in that archetype which is why people have been calling it a pre EK class.

Is there a way to get 3rd level arcane spell SLA in PFS besides Scryer Wizard, though? If you have to enter EK with arcanist 6/fighter 1 it's not worth it... you might as well just stick with arcanist instead of nerfing yourself.


Jeff W wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Blade Adept is for Prestige Classes plz.

But since you'd stop advancing your exploits and your blade by prestiging...

Unless you meant it should have been a prestige class not an archetype, in which case I agree.

It's been said that the blades scales off caster level in that archetype which is why people have been calling it a pre EK class.
Is there a way to get 3rd level arcane spell SLA in PFS besides Scryer Wizard, though? If you have to enter EK with arcanist 6/fighter 1 it's not worth it... you might as well just stick with arcanist instead of nerfing yourself.

Blade adapt doesn't get exploits until 5th level and the Eldritch Blade exploit is what allows it to use your caster level.


Jeff W wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

Blade Adept is for Prestige Classes plz.

But since you'd stop advancing your exploits and your blade by prestiging...

Unless you meant it should have been a prestige class not an archetype, in which case I agree.

It's been said that the blades scales off caster level in that archetype which is why people have been calling it a pre EK class.
Is there a way to get 3rd level arcane spell SLA in PFS besides Scryer Wizard, though? If you have to enter EK with arcanist 6/fighter 1 it's not worth it... you might as well just stick with arcanist instead of nerfing yourself.

The base Aasimar does it with Daylight but if you haven't started one yet you will need a boon.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Haven't noticed any archetypes from the book that are "must have", honestly. Some are very, very good, but nothing that you'd be a fool not to take it. Mutagen Warrior comes close to being a class upgrade, but it keeps you from taking other nifty archetypes (and is thematically problematic for a lot of fighter-lovers).

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I don't care for martial flexibility, wandering spirits, and other such abilities that let you reselect major class features. I feel like it erases what should be character defining choices. (I've always had a similar feeling towards prepared casters)


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So I made a couple of characters using the fighter archetypes.
lvl 12 version
lvl 20 version


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

After reading your list of combos I just realized how amazing this class feature can be! Thank you!

Contributor

anlashok wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
The only damage-dealing option I have over him is my bane

So you're skipping out on solo tactics, buff spells and offensive domains/inquisitions?

Seems like an iffy comparison then.

Solo Tactics only offers me an additional +1d6 damage and unlike sneak attack, I only get it when I'm specifically working with an ally. Doesn't always happen.

My domain is the Travel Domain. Like I mentioned, I'm much more mobile then him. Plus since you're building off of the Cleric list, there aren't many offensive domains. Most of the inquisitions are buff-based too.

I do use buff spells, but for the most part that means I beat him in specific encounters when I have time to buff. We don't always have time to buff. Sometimes we get ambushed and it is a smarter move to attack and help kill stuff now instead of buffing myself and hoping that I kill stuff next round (and nobody dies before then).


Pre-buffing is a thing.

Especially with the Inquisitor list and its plethora of good 10 min/level buffs and stellar 1 min/level ones.


1d6 and +2 to hit for a condition you should be in basically every encounter (since it enables him too). Certainly not a huge bonus, but still significant enough to be of note and does more than a little to close the gap, especially at lower levels.

Immediate action charges can be some hefty bonus damage too.


Personally I'm happy to nerf my arcanist with ranger 1, arcanist (bloodline arcane) 9 and eldritch knight 10. It's a nice caster/scout build using their internal power that still at 20 has 9th level spells.

Blade adept for me gives me the worst magus feature of blackblade (nice story telling mechanic but I don't want a weapon that may take me over and use me to achieve its own goals) but doesn't offer the nice combat casting with an offhand one. Sure it's not great for a primarily combat oriented class but for a caster who's only wearing armour (celestial mail = no caster penalty) and a weapon for a last line of defence it's pretty good.

On the other hand I love the bloodline arcanist because it gives me a sorcerers internal power with a casting mechanic I actually agree with on a personal level plus a familiar.

Haven't had time to read all the rest yet.

Contributor

Rynjin wrote:
Pre-buffing is a thing.

Prebuffing is a gift that your GM gives you. My GM isn't always kind.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Pre-buffing is a thing.
Prebuffing is a gift that your GM gives you. My GM isn't always kind.

Then play a mean PC.

Outside of a true and unexpected ambush you can get defensive buffs out before most combats.

Don't underestimate the knowledge scouts give you either. You don't need a full map of the place you just need a good general idea of it with the addition of knowing what guards it and there general armanents. Do they carry simple weapons and crossbows? Polearms? Sword and board generally?

And keep in mind certain bread and butter buffs (mage armor, long strider, etc.) last for hours. There's nothing stopping those from being cast as you start the adventuring day.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Pre-buffing is a thing.
Prebuffing is a gift that your GM gives you. My GM isn't always kind.

Prebuffing isn't so much a gift from the GM as a prize you earn from the GM through judicious use of scouting. Granted, you can't always expect to know what you're going into - but if you put some effort into it you'll usually be able to know the enemy's disposition as well as control the time and location of the encounter quite a bit of the time.

For example the Gloves of Reconnaissance are cheap, replaceable, and will frequently give you an excellent starting point for an encounter.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Pre-buffing is a thing.
Prebuffing is a gift that your GM gives you. My GM isn't always kind.

Your GM requires you to ask permission to cast 10 min/level and hour/level buffs on yourself?


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Pre-buffing is a thing.
Prebuffing is a gift that your GM gives you. My GM isn't always kind.

Heroism is a 10 minute/lvl buff so it should be up for every encounter.

Things like Magic Vestment can be precast before the day even starts with a lesser rod of extension and it will last for most of the day.

Granted your inquisitor did take Travel domain which means your damage will be lower compared to a feather or rage domain inquisitor. But there should not be a huge difference between your group's slayer and you.

As for scouting, I actually like to use stealth synergy and scout together with whoever has the highest stealth roll. With liberal use of detect alignment and high perception, you should have a really good idea of when combat is about to start.


So Back to the sanctified slayer...
I tend to prefer keeping judgments, but the benefits do seem alluring.

Of not is that from what I can tell the studied target that you gain would have your studied target bonus applied to the save DC's of whatever domain or judgement that may choose. That could be potentially nifty. Any suggestions on that one?

Also,just a thought but if you took the ranger combat style slayer talent, at 8th which is as soon as you can grab it, can you grab from the 6th level list of feats from the combat style?
seems a bit awkwardly worded to me but I could be wrong.


The Combat Style ability just seems to say that if you take it once then you are qualified to take it again at 6th and then again at 10th if you take it a second time; that's my interpretation at least and I think it makes the most sense. I've heard some arguments both ways about whether or not an ability like "Talented Slayer" is the same as "Slayer Talent" in terms of qualifying for feats like Extra Slayer Talent, but if the answer turns out to be yes (how I will run it regardless of official answer), then you do have yourself something awesome at level 9 at least.


1: The Sanctified Slayer combines with the Infiltrator Arcetype, that just makes perfect sense to me.

2: Studied Target should apply to the Sanctified Slayer's spell DC's!!!

That poor spell list though....


What poor spell list?

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
What poor spell list?

Yeah, I've gotta agree. Inquisitor spells are pretty awesome.


its not that its really a bad spell list, it just kinda bad for save or die effects.
It is mostly made up of utility or buff spells, which wouldn't benefit from the DC boost.

There are a few options that you can use, but to me the spell list doesn't completely synergize with studied target.

Dark Archive

That's probably the reason Studied Target will work for Inquisitors, honestly. They'd never give something like that to the Magus, for example. A move action to boost your DCs by 1, at will, as many times as you want during the day? Super good. Probably too good, even.

Contributor

Does it work for Inquisitors like that, though? The ability specifically calls out "slayer class features," not just "class features." And there's no rule that changes your inquisitor class features into slayer class features.

Liberty's Edge

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Does it work for Inquisitors like that, though? The ability specifically calls out "slayer class features," not just "class features." And there's no rule that changes your inquisitor class features into slayer class features.

Indeed. Adding to Inquisitor Save DCs is not something Studied Target does, either RAW or IMO RAI.


Studied Target (Ex): A slayer can study an opponent he can see as a move action. The slayer then gains a +1 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks attempted against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against it. The DCs of slayer class abilities against that opponent increase by 1. A slayer can only maintain these bonuses against one opponent at a time; these bonuses remain in effect until either the opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target. If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can study that target as an immediate action, allowing him to apply his studied target bonuses against that target (including to the normal weapon damage roll).
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the bonuses on weapon attack and damage rolls, as well as the bonus to slayer ability DCs against a studied, target increase by 1. In addition, at each such interval, the slayer is able to maintain these bonuses against an additional studied target at the same time. The slayer may discard this connection to a studied target as a free action, allowing him to study another target in its place.
At 7th level, a slayer can study an opponent as a move or swift action.

From the Sanctified Slayer Archetype:

Studied Target (Ex): At first level, a sanctified slayer gains the slayer's studied target class feature. She uses her inquisitor level as her effective slayer level to determine the effects of studied target. This ability replaces judgment 1/day.

If you are going along that line of interpretation then a Sanctified slayer cannot even use studied target at all because they are not a slayer, since it specifies slayer within the first two words of the ability.

The Sanctified Slayer archetype has text that says that Inquisitor levels are her effective slayer level for the effects of studied target. This wording HAS to mean that each instance of slayer used in studied target is replaced with inquisitor in order for it to even work per RAW. That is what I believe is the RAW and RAI of Sanctified slayers studied target as well as other Archetypes that gain features from other classes. It is needed to properly function.

I can slightly see the RAW argument against it, but it is such a minor and minuscule interpretation of the rules that i think even the developers would chime in with a "you know better, c'mon guys..".

Being completely honest with my belief of RAI, I don't think that they meant it to be able to boost spell DC's, but I think that was more of a failure to fully understand the implications of studied target on the inquisitor rather than a desire to prevent it from happening.


It doesn't help spell DCs by RAW or by RAI. Spells are not abilities - we are talking about punching them in the kidney and stuff.


Spells are a class ability that use a DC. Studied Target should affect their calculation
.

Contributor

Deadkitten wrote:

Spells are a class ability that use a DC. Studied Target should affect their calculation

.

The thing is, it says you use your inquisitor level as your effective slayer level for studied target. That means that inquisitor level = slayer level for the ability.

So if you go back to slayer, the ability says that you get a bonus on the saving throw DC of slayer class ability. Your inquisitor level is still your slayer level when determining the effects of your studied strike, so you add a bonus to your slayer class abilities based on your inquisitor level. But nowhere does this ability modify studied strike's bonuses to read that you apply your saving throw DC bonus to inquisitor class abilities.

Basically:

inquisitor level = slayer level for determining bonuses but other inquisitor abilities are unaffected, meaning they don't count as slayer abilities when determining the DC bonus.

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