Goblin Squad Member
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...it smells wonderful.My best friend tells me I'm the only person he's met who dislikes the smell, too.
I also can't stand the smell of coffee. And it looks like I didn't explain my spearmint tea well enough. I use black tea (loose leaves from a local shop) and I use fresh spearmint I grow myself to replace sugar/honey.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well in a stunning turn of events, I have been so generously given an Alpha invite. I look forward to attending tonight's Adventures with Bonny.
Oh hell Blood, I am glad to know you accept bribes. watch for the UPS guy. He will have a box of donuts and a Hello Kitty sleeping bag for you.
Now, pretty please, will you stop picking on me over the internets?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well in a stunning turn of events, I have been so generously given an Alpha invite. I look forward to attending tonight's Adventures with Bonny.
It was surely for the good of the game. It must be tested in every detail, and there are some things few alphas will really truly test, at least as far as I have seen.
I am amazed and encouraged, Bludd, that you made a fair reveal. Forewarned is forearmed, after all.
The honorable robber you might possibly be, against all odds. What a wonderful, impossible dream. Utopian.
Unlikely. But conceivable.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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But we still have nothing to help us learn about PVP builds, unless someone is willing to tank their Rep and delete their toon.This is simply not true. I've detailed how PvP testing can be done between two willing participants without impacting their Reputation. Of course, you decided to call me an exploiter for pointing out that it could be done, but what does that matter?Just so everyone is clear, this is what I wrote:
Having to use an exploit in order to have consequence free PvP is still not addressing the question that was posed.
There is still no non consensual PvP that is rep neutral and so there is still no way to truly test the system.
Funny... I don't see calling you any names. I clearly described why the "solution" you used did not address the issue I raised.
Having you character repeatedly commit suicude, to unlock a social achievement, to then flag yourself as a murderer for 24 hours to enable rep free PvP is not working as intended, it is therefore an exploit. I did not criticise you for using the exploit, I merely said that is not a solution.
Once again, instead of admitting you were wrong, you deflect and then falsely accuse me if calling you a name in a transparent attempt to obscure your own violation of the forum rules.
We see you.
But... you clarified that the only "exploit" part was getting the achievement easily. It's a hack workaround, sure, but it seems to work.
I think Bluddwolf meant the "problematic" (cheating-ish) exploit was getting the achievement easily. I regard any hack workaround as "exploiting" the system. It's not cheating, but it's not a great long-term solution for testing PvP.
It is a shame SAD probably won't be added during Alpha.
sadly caffeine gives me migraines, i cant even sit in a coffee shop for too long without a headache starting :{ smells nice from a distance though lol
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Goblin Squad Member
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So far I have learned a few things, through mistakes of course....
Before skill training, hit the F11 key to bring up the "builds" you are looking to unlock. You then have to drag that window all the way to the left side of your screen. When you look to see what you need for Rogue 3 (for example), bring your cursor over from the right, just until the pop up of the list scrolls across your screen.
You need to this otherwise you can't read the list, it will be behind the F11 pop up window.
Mistake: skirmishes / rogue training
I had though "oh let me take all the level 1s and see what that unlocks". When I finally started using the F11 window, I realized I probably could have been a Rogue 5 if I used it from the start.
Today I'll roll a second toon a do some face burning! Expect to see a wizard with a green hat!
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Goblin Squad Member
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A super non-related fact (based on caffeine give him migraines): did you know ticks could make you allergic to meat? I didn't believe until I read the abstract of their project. oO
If you eat the tick will you regain your tolerance for meat?
Oh... I bet if you allow yourself to be killed and then raised as a Zombie, you will like meat again!!
BTW Kemedo, I noticed that in one of your posts you were pretty close to being....
Pro Cannibalism! Now I know what goes in in those Brazilian Steak Houses I so love!
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I think if you are allergic of meat and being raised as Zombie, you will have a bad time, Golgotha garantee it
You loved our meet because have exotic taste... ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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... it's not a great long-term solution for testing PvP.
Is there really a need for a "long-term solution" for testing PvP during Alpha? The fact remains there is a viable, easy method of testing PvP in Alpha without either party losing Reputation. Perhaps the real problem is that it won't allow one party to "test" PvP against another unwilling party without losing Reputation...
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Goblin Squad Member
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... it's not a great long-term solution for testing PvP.Is there really a need for a "long-term solution" for testing PvP during Alpha? The fact remains there is a viable, easy method of testing PvP in Alpha without either party losing Reputation. Perhaps the real problem is that it won't allow one party to "test" PvP against another unwilling party without losing Reputation...
It's not the point that they may be unwilling, it is the point of them being unknowing and or unprepared.
The PvP that most players will encounter is at a time and a place when they might not have been prepared for it.
I recounted a conversation I had one day with a school Principal who used to have fire drills at odd times or during bad weather. I had when people complained his response was "Fires don't only happen on sunny days and when it's convenient for you".
PFO is not a theme park MMO with arena, zoned or consensual PvP. If you want to prepare for PvP as if it is, you are not preparing for PFO.
But hey, keep on preparing for the game none of us will find ourselves in. Good luck with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not the point that they may be unwilling, it is the point of them being unknowing and or unprepared.
I thought we were talking about testing PVP without losing Reputation. How is PVP--in these early days before feuds--against someone unknowing or unprepared going to incur no Rep-loss?
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not the point that they may be unwilling, it is the point of them being unknowing and or unprepared.I thought we were talking about testing PVP without losing Reputation. How is PVP--in these early days before feuds--against someone unknowing or unprepared going to incur no Rep-loss?
It can't and that is the problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then should we take away the implication that reputation, even in current alpha where recovery is super-accelerated, may after all be an effective governor on meaningless (as in not worth it) murder? Or do you feel that would be premature?
First, I think Reputation loss as I understand it is not based on the incident, it it based on the number of characters that are attacked (compounding rep loss).
This discourages attacking groups, and encourages attacking solo characters.
Reputation loss should be based on a per incident basis. This will have two effects, it will still limit the number or times that this behavior occurs, but more importantly, it will make the solo target much less tempting.
How does the system determine what is "one incident"?
A combination of time frame and proximity.
Secondly, we already know how effective the negative impact of not being able to train is. So far what it has accomplished is the unwillingness of anyone to risk PVP with a character they wish to be persistent.
The game, including in Alpha, does not benefit by PVP being conducted primarily with throw-away alts.
There are probably a dozen or so solutions to change this, and I'll get to them later. I want to think of ways that would be an acceptable compromise that will as closely as possible approximate the type of PVP we are likely to experience in EE / OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A super non-related fact (based on caffeine give him migraines): did you know ticks could make you allergic to meat? I didn't believe until I read the abstract of their project. oO
That is the Lone Star Tick. Also only makes you allergic to red meat. Poultry and fish are okay.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, there is a big problem we have all been talking about....
When you add encumbrance, us character with thousands upon thousands of things in our inventory will be rooted in place. What will be have to fix this?
Cheatle: "Hey, can somebody come to the Sotterhill Market and trade with me so I can offload some of this stuff?"
Nihimon: "I would, but trade's bugged in Sotterhill, sorry."
Perhaps there should be a minimum movement speed we never fall below, regardless of how encumbered we are.
[Edit] To be clear, I'm fairly confident the Trade bug will be fixed before Early Enrollment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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LOL, hmmmmmmmm, I don't know.
OK, OK, I got it! If you are in town, and super encumbered, your speed is reduced by 75-80%, but if you are outside a Hex, you are rooted. Fair compromise, and also always everyone to come back to town before the next patch.
With boosting everyone this week, I'm predicting a continuation next week with some more alpha invites. Then a wipe the next cycle, back to standard advancement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A super non-related fact (based on caffeine give him migraines): did you know ticks could make you allergic to meat? I didn't believe until I read the abstract of their project. oO
I believe you are talking about the Lone Star Tick or the Texas Tick, forget what they decided to call it. Apparently, cattle infected by a bite from this one type of tick [not to be confused with The Tick!] will make anyone who eats meat from that cattle sick.
The thought of worrying about how much my stuff weighs sounds dreadful. In every other video game I've played I collect A LOT of stuff and keep handy things around just in case. Having to worry whether I'll be able to move at all because I want to use the items I've acquired does not seem like it would help the overall fun of the game.
I'm not in the Alpha so I have a question on PvP. Let's say a person is out wandering the wilderness exploring, and they come across a random person. If that random person engages them in battle does s/he take a Reputation loss?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's say a person is out wandering the wilderness exploring, and they come across a random person. If that random person engages them in battle does s/he take a Reputation loss?
Example:
You're in the wilderness not flagged to me.
The first attack I use against you makes my name turn red to you so you can kill me without losing Reputation.
The second attack I use against you makes me lose Reputation, the amount proportional to your own Reputation score.
Even if I don't attack you a second time, if you die within a relatively short time frame, I still lose (the same amount of?) Reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to mention that you have 45-60? seconds to kill him, after he has attacked you once. So, in theory, he could hit you, run away, you chase him attacking him, and his attack flag goes away, and then you gain the flag. At this point he turns around, kills you and loots you, without any reputation loss.
You have to be careful, best to not go it alone, a few people might be able to kill him in less than 45 seconds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thought of worrying about how much my stuff weighs sounds dreadful. In every other video game I've played I collect A LOT of stuff and keep handy things around just in case. Having to worry whether I'll be able to move at all because I want to use the items I've acquired does not seem like it would help the overall fun of the game.
It sounds brilliant to me = interesting choices to make as well as knock on effects on groups and the economy.
If it sounds dreadful to "you" then that could be because:-
1. You are solo'ing
2. You like being self-sufficient hence you solo
3. You want your time solo'ing to represent what you can do and take?
Instead:-
1. You solo you limit what you can do.
2. You make trade-off choices on the limits you expect and make a cost-benefit decision for your time.
3. You group up to overcome such limitations.
I have no idea if that is how the game is designed to work, but I want to see if the challenge has any application to your expressed preference?
What I do know or suspect:-
1. Your encumbrance limits your gear, which limits the builds you can multi-class without instant access to all that gear.
2. Encumbrance gives limitations to what players can pull back per their time in game for the economy. This suggests organization of groups or division of labour to scale up operations is favored?
In a spaceship game you would have a larger hull for hauling stuff. I'd like to see PFO use beasts of burden or carriages for this for items of bulk and heaviness, personally. I'd also like encumbrance for items on the body to match the increase in weight to power ratio to move all that weight over distance ie encumbrance does what it says on the tin by hook or by crook for most bipedal races of a certain size that power ratio hits a limit in the same general zone.
Perhaps I've got it all wrong in my enthusiasm, but I have high hopes.
The game needs to ensure players are making interesting choices to a high frequency and ideally social interaction to a high quality. Possibly this system helps with both those outcomes? I hope so and solo-ing may be something exciting to do to specialize in, but don't expect to be taking half the kingdom back home with you!?
... it's not a great long-term solution for testing PvP.Is there really a need for a "long-term solution" for testing PvP during Alpha? The fact remains there is a viable, easy method of testing PvP in Alpha without either party losing Reputation. Perhaps the real problem is that it won't allow one party to "test" PvP against another unwilling party without losing Reputation...It's not the point that they may be unwilling, it is the point of them being unknowing and or unprepared.
The PvP that most players will encounter is at a time and a place when they might not have been prepared for it.
I recounted a conversation I had one day with a school Principal who used to have fire drills at odd times or during bad weather. I had when people complained his response was "Fires don't only happen on sunny days and when it's convenient for you".
PFO is not a theme park MMO with arena, zoned or consensual PvP. If you want to prepare for PvP as if it is, you are not preparing for PFO.
I've gotta agree with the wolf. Nonconsensual PvP is something that should be tested right now. Simulating it's all well and good, but I'd rather have a clearer mechanism. I hope looting and/or SADs can be added during the Alpha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is such an integral system I think it would be unconscionable for us to not test the systems in place for PvP before EE, including loot and rep.
I really want to know that the dissuasions GW has in mind to govern the expression of violence will actually channel it productively somehow.
We cannot eliminate it and retain realistic polity and respect. RP would be largely meaningless without ever present danger, and not just from PvE that we choose to go out and fight while it waits for us in convenient clumps of combat.
Those clumps of mobs and the rest of the environment (the E of PVE) is incomplete without the need to constantly watch one another's backs, alert for the stealthy and the not-so-stealthy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nonconsensual PvP is something that should be tested right now.
sigh
Nonconsensual PvP can be tested right now. It has Reputation consequences, just like it will in the game.
I asked Ryan one night while we were chatting in General if he was happy with the way the Reputation system was working in Alpha. He said yes, he was very glad that Alpha hadn't turned into Lord of the Flies Online. I don't know why some folks insist it must be Lord of the Flies Online.
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Nonconsensual PvP can be tested right now. It has Reputation consequences, just like it will in the game.
Well, not quite. There are going to be tons of ways to do nonconsensual PvP (as there should be, since we both agree it's an important part of the game). There's the SAD, the feud, the war, the tower PvP windows...nonconsensual PvP is an encouraged part of this game. If not, it's gonna be rough being a cadaver collector.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are all on that page I believe, and really are you as worried about formation warfare and sieges as you are about gankature?
I don't understand the question. I'm not particularly worried about anything. I'm just getting frustrated; first by the assertion that you can't test PvP without losing Reputation (you can), and then by the assertion that you can't test nonconsensual PvP (you can).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am worried about many things.
How are you testing PvP? Don't the qualities of that experience on both sides matter in testing? Don't the methods used for it matter? Have you tailor built the training of your character for it? Don't you think someone should try? Shouldn't we see whether the impact of reputation hits matter at all to the highly trained? Just because you can kill yourself and then have a duel with someone doesn't mean you are testing PvP, at least not as I think of PvP. It is a bit more complex than that.
Personally, I will be happy to use the level-boost "Supers" gives me to test nonconsensual PvP. After all, if I'm only gonna have a short time to play Alpha, might as well have fun! ;D
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Guys, the idea to test PvP AND Reputation is simple:
Allow willing PvPers to choice between two factions (P.e. Thornkeep Milita and Fort Inevitable Wardens) and (like the game will run over high level factioneers) let them kill each without rep hit.
If you are not willing to do that, just do not chose none. Then the non-factioned will test the reputation system and factioned ones will test raw pvp.
What do you think?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am worried about many things.
How are you testing PvP? Don't the qualities of that experience on both sides matter in testing? Don't the methods used for it matter? Have you tailor built the training of your character for it? Don't you think someone should try? Shouldn't we see whether the impact of reputation hits matter at all to the highly trained? Just because you can kill yourself and then have a duel with someone doesn't mean you are testing PvP, at least not as I think of PvP. It is a bit more complex than that.
I still don't understand why those questions are being directed to me, but perhaps it's best to just let it be.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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So, on subject: Assuming that the emergent behavior hasn't been removed, I'm going to give myself the self-murderer flag early tonight.
Then I'm going to play. Anyone who wants to test out surprise PvP without Reputation loss is welcome to try.
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Perhaps I've got it all wrong in my enthusiasm, but I have high hopes.
The game needs to ensure players are making interesting choices to a high frequency and ideally social interaction to a high quality. Possibly this system helps with both those outcomes? I hope so and solo-ing may be something exciting to do to specialize in, but don't expect to be taking half the kingdom back home with you!?
For me it's not an interesting choice. I would rather my decisions about items be dictated only by space in my bags and not include the weight. Reducing my movement speed has such a hugely negative impact on other aspects of game play while not having room in my bag just prevents me from gaining more items. I suppose it's dependent on what level of realism you want for different things.
I'm perfectly happy to wait until the game actually comes out and I can play it to form a solid opinion. Maybe it won't be as bad as I'm imagining. Maybe it will be even worse and the developers will fix it.
This whole "Schrodinger's Game" that I'm playing right now is starting to get boring and I've only been playing it for a week. My heart goes out to those of you who have been waiting for years.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still don't understand why those questions are being directed to me, but perhaps it's best to just let it be.
Perhaps, but you were the only one I know who killed yourself to do it, and you seemed to be arguing that that sort of duel is enough. I know someone else used the suicide method to gain the feat, and I did once, but I didn''t engage another in PvP afterward where it sounded like you had.
I didn't promptly attack the female character who was suiciding to death because that isn't yet my path. At least yet. There isn't real meaning in it for me, but I still think it has to be tested by someone who is avid about PvP, even if it entails being on the defensive from here out in Alpha and beyond.
I do fine in MechWarrior PvP because that is all there is to that game, that and building variants and training with a team. And that is really where PvP needs testing. In MWO there are some squads that are simply superb, like choreographed superb. Yet so far in PFO I've harvested alone 99% of the time and never once been attacked. That is great for harvesting and racking up PvE accomplishments but it isn't the way it will be in OE anyway unless I miss my guess.
But my mindset regarding PvP in Pathfinder certainly hasn't reached a critical mass yet. For me it still seems like PvP should be a natural extension of role play, and there is little role play happening in my sight. Largely my fault I suppose as I seldom seek out a group of people to actively play with. That is a disability of a sort. I seem to be shy in peculiar ways, different ways than I imagine most people are. Perhaps it is all my imagining, but our modern culture seems so social it is almost alien to me, a bit intimidating. I am at ease speaking intellectually, but simply initiating an attack on someone still feels personal and wrong.
I'm sure I'll get over it. But I think I am right that we need someone really testing it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Never fear, I'll throw together a small band of cutthroats tonight (or as soon as we can get back into Alpha) and at some point the testing will be on.
We won't be broadcasting over Twitch feed, because we don't want to take away from the numbers of ATwB. I will however Frap the entire session, once we spot a target(s).