Goblin Squad Member
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To get enough Social points to advance Knowldge: Nature & History, you must get the Player Killer achievements. The easiest way to get those without losing Reputation is to repeatedly kill yourself. Once you've killed yourself a number of times, you will have the Murderer Flag for 24 hours (I believe). Once you have the Murderer Flag, anyone can attack you without losing Reputation. If you encounter anyone else who has the Murderer Flag, you should be able to fight each other freely without worrying about Reputation loss.
Hmmm interesting. I am not sure I like the suicide method to getting this accomplished or not. Not saying it's an exploit, but seems more of a cop out imho.
I'd rather see it be done without the suicide route or a different way to achieve that doesn't "harm" your reputation. Or maybe that is a morale choice one must make for themselves if they want it. Either way I think the suicide should go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmm interesting. I am not sure I like the suicide method to getting this accomplished or not. Not saying it's an exploit, but seems more of a cop out imho.
I'd rather see it be done without the suicide route or a different way to achieve that doesn't "harm" your reputation. Or maybe that is a morale choice one must make for themselves if they want it. Either way I think the suicide should go.
On first pass I would have to agree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On first pass I'd be leery of someone being able to get the Player-Killer flagachievements through suicide. But you (Nihimon) say that it's the easiest way to get PK achievements without Rep loss - does that mean there are ways to get PK achievements without Rep loss, other than suicide?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Seems to me that is most definitely not playing the game as it was intended to be played. I bet it's an oversight/bug, as getting a murderer flag for killing yourself doesn't make any sense.
I'm hoping this will be fixed to prevent people from acquiring achievements by exploiting oversights/bugs, but we'll see how it goes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Fult thinks it is better to suicide someone else than self.
Besides, hoping to get a social aknowledgement by killing people is silly. The only thing Nihimon will get is a murderer status.
Oooh, sure, Nihimon can try to kill people while providing a... err... meaningful interaction and get social points. However Fult did not find a good trainer for that feat yet. <shrugs> Best plan is join the Frozen Fingers and help Fult to suicide some bandits. Fult says.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is entirely possible that the most avid of pvpers are not in line with the design goal of the game. It is equally possible that the least avid pvpers are not in line with the design goals as well.
What I do know is that there are player killer achievements currently in the game. I doubt they were coded accidentally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am uneasy with the prospect of gating advancement with killing another player. It seems like a poor design choice in an environment where several potential players have pronounced aversion to harm one another.
Don't worry, there are plenty of us who will cure them of this. Give'em a few days after EE and the UNC will have them wanting to kill someone, likely us.
Player killing gets easier, after the first. ;-)
That and most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at itDo you have a reference on that one, or is it an internet statistic?
Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd love to see a PVP flag introduced "Spoiling for a fight" or some such that a player can fly effectively inviting others to engage him in PVP. Anyone attacking someone flying the "Spoiling for a fight" flag suffers no loss of rep, though they may incur alignment penalties say if the settlement has outlawed brawling.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On first pass I'd be leery of someone being able to get the Player-Killerflagachievements through suicide. But you (Nihimon) say that it's the easiest way to get PK achievements without Rep loss - does that mean there are ways to get PK achievements without Rep loss, other than suicide?
To answer the question: Absolutely, you just need to kill someone that's flagged to you. Anyone who attacks you will be flagged to you. If they hit you a second time they lose Reputation, but if you can kill them before the Attacker Flag wears off, you don't lose any Reputation.
For everyone else, the point is that there is a way to test PvP without Rep Loss in Alpha. I don't think anyone expects the Murderer Flag via Suicide method to be the standard method of engaging in PvP once we're in Early Enrollment, but it's a reasonable way to put yourself in a situation to test PvP without destroying your Character's Reputation during Alpha.
But I applaud the devotion to the "spirit" of the rules by those who would refuse to engage in something that might be considered an exploit...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at itDo you have a reference on that one, or is it an internet statistic?
- Logical fallacy: False Cause: The presumption that correlation equals causation. That everyone who is good at PvP likes it (Even if it is true), does not mean that being bad at it is the cause of most people disliking it.
- Logical fallacy: Burden of Proof: Requiring that someone prove your point is false, instead of proving the point
- You left out the part about "get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at it" I'm betting you haven't conducted a study into how many of us dislike it for that reason as opposed to any other reason for disliking it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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[Bluddwolf avoided the issue]So, an internet statistic, then.
No, just a personal observation after years of playing and interacting on forums associated with MMOs or other PC games with heavy PvP focus.
I left plenty of room for a non absolute in my original statement. I said "most" and asked to counter that opinion you produce just "one".
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Goblin Squad Member
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And I apologize, Bluddwolf. I think I resented being lumped-by-association into something that wasn't true for me. You are entitled to believe that, and it may well be true. I'll ask that you be aware there are some of us for whom it is not true.
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Goblin Squad Member
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[Bluddwolf avoided the issue]So, an internet statistic, then.No, just a personal observation after years of playing and interacting on forums associated with MMOs or other PC games with heavy PvP focus.
I left plenty of room for a non absolute in my original statement. I said "most" and asked to counter that opinion you produce just "one".
I'm good at PVP and find myself not liking a lot of the PVP I've seen in MMOs. I think MOBAs, RTS and FPS do battleground/arena style gaming much better. I think that trying to force complete balance doesn't work in an MMO and I think anyone that is looking for it is hunting a white whale. I think the place for PVP in MMOs of this nature is to have it as something that builds upon the world that we all share.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm good at PVP and find myself not liking a lot of the PVP I've seen in MMOs. I think MOBAs, RTS and FPS do battleground/arena style gaming much better. I think that trying to force complete balance doesn't work in an MMO and I think anyone that is looking for it is hunting a white whale. I think the place for PVP in MMOs of this nature is to have it as something that builds upon the world that we all share.
Beautifully said, if I may say so myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm good at PVP and find myself not liking a lot of the PVP I've seen in MMOs. I think MOBAs, RTS and FPS do battleground/arena style gaming much better. I think that trying to force complete balance doesn't work in an MMO and I think anyone that is looking for it is hunting a white whale. I think the place for PVP in MMOs of this nature is to have it as something that builds upon the world that we all share.
I agree, it is always better to have PvP connected to something more than just a kill count and have no real rewards for winning or consequences for losing.
I'm a bit worried that the issue of threading might protect a bit too much, but like everything else it will have to be tweaked. I just don't see too much in the way of the tweaking going on in alpha.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't worry, there are plenty of us who will cure them of this. Give'em a few days after EE and the UNC will have them wanting to kill someone, likely us.
Player killing gets easier, after the first. ;-)
That and most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at it.
This certainly rings true when weighed against my personal experiences.
When I began playing Open World PvP games I was just trying to live and let live and avoid confrontation. I was what I would classify as a carebear today. Then a group called the Lords came in and started killing my friends.
It got me fired up and angry enough I went and attacked them, and died horribly accomplishing nothing.
But I was angry and determined enough I kept coming back and started getting a few kills. And then I started getting about as many kills as they were. And they I started getting more kills than they were. And they I started getting drastically more kills than they were in even fights, and equal/slightly more kills while heavily outnumbered.
And ever since that point I've loved PvP and it's been the first kind of content I gravitate to in any game I play.
I've trained a lot of people to PvP since then too. I ran into several really good pilots in the later stages of my Freelancer career who told me I was the one who originally trained them to fight. And while some are hesitant and not really into it at first when they get good they get addicted.
So yeah, I fully agree with this statement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK, so back to the OP:
* It's obvious that there are going to be more "Social" achievement types than just PVP kills. If that achievement category was intended to be just PVP, they wouldn't have called it "Social". We'll be able to collect social achievements without PVP.
* It's also obvious that the game the alphas are playing is not, is not intended to be, and should not be judged as, a minimum viable product. When the devs have an MVP ready they'll open EE up. Until then, the alphas are just testing isolated features, not a coherent system.
* Finding clever ways around the gaping holes in the feature set in order to alpha test those features which have been implemented is not an "exploit", it's the nature of alpha. Come EE, that'll be a different story.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at itDo you have a reference on that one, or is it an internet statistic?
Myself, circa 1999, playing Diablo on battle.net. You haven't been looking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Myself, circa 1999, playing Diablo on battle.net. You haven't been looking.
So you were very successful at Diablo PvP and did not enjoy it? Forgive me but I believe one of those two statements to be false. The rush of being successful at PvP aside I don't think anyone who wasn't enjoying PvP would invest the time and practice needed to become successful.
Unless what you actually mean is you were good at and enjoyed Diablo PvP, but are not good at and do not enjoy Open World PvP. I could believe that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.
When combined with other statements that you have made that PvP is not easy and must be learned, the above becomes a tautology.
A player that does not like PvP will not put in the effort to be good at it. 8-)|
Goblin Squad Member
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I'm good at PVP and find myself not liking a lot of the PVP I've seen in MMOs. I think MOBAs, RTS and FPS do battleground/arena style gaming much better. I think that trying to force complete balance doesn't work in an MMO and I think anyone that is looking for it is hunting a white whale. I think the place for PVP in MMOs of this nature is to have it as something that builds upon the world that we all share.
This I can believe as it sound like you are saying you enjoy and are good at arena PvP but are not good at and don't enjoy Open World PvP.
That's not surprising Arena PvP focuses on providing very even (balanced) fights in which the team/player that plays better should always win while uneven and seemingly random battle conditions are the essence of Open World PvP.
It's less about mastering your character's combat abilities (though that helps) and more about learning how to manipulate the conditions of the Open World environment in your favor. It's entirely possible to be good at one but not the other. However I find those that are successful at open world PvP tend to enjoy open world PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For everyone else, the point is that there is a way to test PvP without Rep Loss in Alpha. I don't think anyone expects the Murderer Flag via Suicide method to be the standard method of engaging in PvP once we're in Early Enrollment, but it's a reasonable way to put yourself in a situation to test PvP without destroying your Character's Reputation during Alpha.
I misunderstood your OP, and for that I apologize. It is a good point in relation of testing systems in Alpha.
I think some that dumped their reputation were specifically seeing how fast it took to get from the base reputation barrier to unplayable given certain conditions.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Myself, circa 1999, playing Diablo on battle.net. You haven't been looking.So you were very successful at Diablo PvP and did not enjoy it? Forgive me but I believe one of those two statements to be false. The rush of being successful at PvP aside I don't think anyone who wasn't enjoying PvP would invest the time and practice needed to become successful.
Unless what you actually mean is you were good at and enjoyed Diablo PvP, but are not good at and do not enjoy Open World PvP. I could believe that.
No, I was good at it, in that I would win more than 50% of the time when some random yahoo started attacking me, and I didn't like it, in that whether I won or lost, I would no longer play with the player who attacked me.
Diablo PvP was virtually the same skill as PvE, which was more enjoyable because it included the Skinner Boxes which made me feel like I was accomplishing something
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah I misread. So he's saying he enjoys arena PvP outside MMOs but does not enjoy MMO battlegrounds.
To that I would say this is Open World PvP and balance is not a major objective. I know Ryan has stated as much before. Some classes will be good at solo PvP, some at group PvP, and some just good at PvE. There will be a good reason to play every class but they are not intended to be equally good in every scenario.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm good at PVP and find myself not liking a lot of the PVP I've seen in MMOs. I think MOBAs, RTS and FPS do battleground/arena style gaming much better. I think that trying to force complete balance doesn't work in an MMO and I think anyone that is looking for it is hunting a white whale. I think the place for PVP in MMOs of this nature is to have it as something that builds upon the world that we all share.This I can believe as it sound like you are saying you enjoy and are good at arena PvP but are not good at and don't enjoy Open World PvP.
That's not surprising Arena PvP focuses on providing very even (balanced) fights in which the team/player that plays better should always win while uneven and seemingly random battle conditions are the essence of Open World PvP.
It's less about mastering your character's combat abilities (though that helps) and more about learning how to manipulate the conditions of the Open World environment in your favor. It's entirely possible to be good at one but not the other. However I find those that are successful at open world PvP tend to enjoy open world PvP.
Among people who regularly engage in open world PvP (using your phrasing of it), I suspect that success is slightly negatively correlated with how well they enjoy it. I say that because I expect that some people who are good at it experience outside pressure to perform.
Do you know anyone at all who doesn't like open world PvP who still regularly seeks it out?
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Goblin Squad Member
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"That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is."That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I know what it is, but I have only seen a few episodes. I had no idea that was the song for the show.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.When combined with other statements that you have made that PvP is not easy and must be learned, the above becomes a tautology.
A player that does not like PvP will not put in the effort to be good at it. 8-)
I'm not sure I've actually said it that way, but let me expand or clarify what I would have meant.
Mechanically speaking, PvP is not very much different than PvE combat. Many skills are equally used, although some games do have different skill sets for PvP and or different equipment for PvP.
The two major differences are how your target reacts to combat and how you react to the possibility of loss.
Mobs in PvE always fight to the death, never retreat to regroup and attack and never flee. This doesn't mean that some players don't actually fight to the death, in some cases they do without any attempt to flee. Other times they choose to late to try to flee. Sometimes they intend to lose, for some other reason unknown to the attacker.
Getting over the disappointment of losing, especially when you lose a significant amount of gear / cargo is the greatest obstacle to learning to enjoy PvP. Many MMOs make the acquiring of gear in particular a very difficult, time consuming or expansive task. So the thought that you can lose it in what seems like a few seconds is disconcerting to say the least. What has helped me is to put loss into the context of, I played the game to gain it and I played the game in losing it, and I will play the game to get what I lost back. I pay to play, and there being the chance of losing is actually as important as the feeling I get when winning.
So, that is the only real learning I think someone needs to PvP. Sure there are the game mechanics that need to be learned, but it's the mentality that is more important, in my opinion.
* There is also another mentality that is learned, that of PvPing because you have to and PvPing because you want to. Then there is learning to become a predator and attacking those that have done nothing to you, but you intend to take their stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is."That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I'm old and recognized it instantly. =/
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is."That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I recognized the lyrics as from M*A*S*H when I saw them, but for some reason I thought they were from some kind of musical production...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is."That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I don't believe those lyrics were ever sung in the TV series (except maybe in the final episode?) The people who would recognize those words would be the ones who also saw the movie.
(Yes, I recognized them right off.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is."That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I've watched the movie and the entire TV series. But I didn't recognize the lyrics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is."That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
Supposedly takes place near Uijeongbu right?
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Goblin Squad Member
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A lot of comments about PvP in MMOs fail to recognize that in theme park MMOs all gear and abilities are balanced for PvE raiding not for PvP. This is the reason why there was almost always 1 or 2 classes that were much stronger than the rest. I personally really enjoyed PvP in many MMOs but eventually stopped playing all of them because of this un-reconcilable fact.
Also thanks for the heads up Nihimon, I'll has to give this a try out tonight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm somewhat curious how many folks knew without looking it up that those were the lyrics to the theme song to M*A*S*H (I did). I'm also somewhat curious how many folks don't know what M*A*S*H is."That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please."
I did and I know what Mash is. The tv show just had the music but I believe the movie had the lyrics.
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Find me one person who was good at PvP and didn't like it. I've not been able to find one, in over a decade of playing MMOs, or PC games in general.most people who express an aversion to trying a PvP focused game have usually never played one. They get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at itDo you have a reference on that one, or is it an internet statistic?
- Logical fallacy: False Cause: The presumption that correlation equals causation. That everyone who is good at PvP likes it (Even if it is true), does not mean that being bad at it is the cause of most people disliking it.
- Logical fallacy: Burden of Proof: Requiring that someone prove your point is false, instead of proving the point
- You left out the part about "get a majority of their negative impressions from players who have pvp'd but sucked at it" I'm betting you haven't conducted a study into how many of us dislike it for that reason as opposed to any other reason for disliking it.
Damn you people for making me take Caldeathe's side! We're supposed to have a rivalry or something!
But, yeah. Claiming that "people who hate PvP are bad at it" is a fallacy. People who hate PvP are bad at PvP because they don't practice it because they hate it.
I'm not good at golf. Is that because I lack some magical inborn powers? No, it's because I don't like golf and don't practice. I'm not a good artist. Is that the fault of some divine being cursing me for looking at him funny? No, it's because I don't enjoy drawing enough to commit. I can't quote "Twilight" word-for-word. Is that because I'm bad at reading? No, it's because I don't like the book and only read it once.
Hey, did you guys know vampires are basically made of marble? I think some cockatrices bit them in the ass a bunch and they barely got away. There's your new origin story, Meyers. Go make a few extra million.