Bioware's doing pretty amazingly, in my opinion.I've become a little disillusion with bioware. dragon age 2 was not that great.
the mass effects became less RPG's as the series went on.
ever since the take over by EA they seem more concerned with production values rather than gameplay or substance. dragon age inquisition is going to be a big game for them. they lost a lot of fans with dragon age 2. why they so radically changed there biggest selling game ever, I will never understand.
I liked Dragon Age 2. It experimented with unreliable narrators, dynamic character development, and using actual tragedy, rather than faux-tragedy where you still save the world in the end, as a narrative structure. I don't think it entirely succeeded (and I have a lot of issues around the gameplay, limited maps, and so on), but it was thrilling to see a AAA game actually try something new story-wise, for once. Dragon Age: Origins did a great job of introducing the world, but plot-wise, it was pretty cookie-cutter.
As for why they'd change their best-selling game ever, presumably because they wanted to experiment, and were in a secure position to do so.
As for the Mass Effect trilogy, I'm not sure why you'd classify it as "less [an] RPG." Could you clarify?
well the original mass effect had an actual inventory system, an actual rpg class system, system, armor, weapons. the skill system required actual tradeoffs. it definatly blurred the line between shooter and rpg very much in the vein of the originator of the genre deus ex
however as the series progressed, more and more character choices were removed, the inventory system was all but removed. honestly by the third one, the game practically played itself.
I will grant dragon age origins story wasn't the best, but the gameplay was excellent and you could approach the game in different ways.
story wise, really wasn't that great. if you wanted tragedy, unreliable narration, I would suggest never winter nights 2 mask of the betrayers which is an example of a game that is superior to dragon age 2 in its narrative and didn't sacrifice RPG gameplay mechanics to do it.
KOTOR 2: Flawed gem kicked in the nuts by publishers.
NWN2: Great!
Alpha Protocol: Blergh
Dungeon Siege III: OK, I guess
Fallout: New Vegas: *drools*: on the floor: Old World Blues: best DLC evah
South Park: "The 89% average rating game"NVN 2 is ok
NWN 2 mask of the betrayer is a classic.I got bogged down in Mask. Fairly early on. I'm just not fond of the high level play. It's even more about shopping and trading out gear for better gear and the game play, especially trying to run multiple characters gets more complex. It also frustrates me that you're always essentially fighting the same things, you just run into tougher variants of them. 20th level skeletons and zombies and orcs.
I didn't find as many good mods for NWN2 as for the original. I didn't spend as much time looking, I'll admit.
I do love a combat heavy game, and they improved the combat system immensely in mask of betrayer, it's much closer to a turned based system than the original NVM 2, however you can talk your way out of 90% of the game, and the narrative is only really rivaled by torment.
Bioware's doing pretty amazingly, in my opinion.I've become a little disillusion with bioware. dragon age 2 was not that great.
the mass effects became less RPG's as the series went on.
ever since the take over by EA they seem more concerned with production values rather than gameplay or substance. dragon age inquisition is going to be a big game for them. they lost a lot of fans with dragon age 2. why they so radically changed there biggest selling game ever, I will never understand.
I liked Dragon Age 2. It experimented with unreliable narrators, dynamic character development, and using actual tragedy, rather than faux-tragedy where you still save the world in the end, as a narrative structure. I don't think it entirely succeeded (and I have a lot of issues around the gameplay, limited maps, and so on), but it was thrilling to see a AAA game actually try something new story-wise, for once. Dragon Age: Origins did a great job of introducing the world, but plot-wise, it was pretty cookie-cutter.
As for why they'd change their best-selling game ever, presumably because they wanted to experiment, and were in a secure position to do so.
As for the Mass Effect trilogy, I'm not sure why you'd classify it as "less [an] RPG." Could you clarify?
All Dragon Age titles have pros and cons. Story and narration is surely a pro. Level and Environment design is a con in my eyes.
Take a look at Divinity 3 original Sins, that´s a brand new jewel!Also Wasteland 2 will be really good. That isometric view there is quite cool for group based tactical games.
Since Pathfinder uses rounds, it should really be turn-based.
One of the main things bugging me with NWN was hitting space so often.
Fallout style would be pretty cool too though, no question.
What i really want to see though is my figher running somewhere and doing a nicely animated whirlwind attack and a lot of similar effects all being recognizable for what they are in the RPG.
What did space do in NWN?
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Y'know, I had all sorts of thoughtful feedback based on growing up with tabletop RPGs alongside the likes of genre standards like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, and even TOEE, but it just devolved into:
Wantwantwantwantwantwant!
In NWN space paused so you could issue commands. I preferred to play it real time myself (you could still queue up actions to take as you went). By using space a lot you could effectively turn it into a turn based game that way if you kept hitting space to issue commands all the time.
That's right, I remember now. I pretty much never did that myself either. Blame it on getting introduced to the game for the purpose of online play (pause was disabled unless you were in the GM client) and only going back and doing the single-player years later.
I and most people I know ended up changing that key to something less prone to accidentally get pushed while in the client. Lost count of how many times a GM would accidentally pause, or worse save. Everything stops for five minutes while the gold eye of doom stares at you!
What did space do in NWN?
space is the default "pause" button in infinity engine games. they were good, but were blown out of the water, as far as combat goes by TOEE.
Obsidian makes some pretty good games and I'd like to play a BG or NWN type game using the Pathfinder system.
What did space do in NWN?space is the default "pause" button in infinity engine games.
Yeah I remember now, it's just been about three years since I played NWN =)
they were good, but were blown out of the water, as far as combat goes by TOEE.
Maybe, I never played it. I was in NWN almost 100% for the toolset and the online communities I played on.
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For NWN, same here. Online was where it was at and the incredible player created worlds. If they can pull something off like that I'd be incredibly impressed but I'm really wary as when NWN 2 was first released the online play wasn't even functional, the GM client didn't exist, and the bugs were everywhere. It took dozens of patches to get it where it should have been at launch in the first place.
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I loved the combat system in Temple of Elemental Evil, up to and including:
- The ability to delay actions by dragging your character's pictures across the initiative.
- Very fancy spell-shape templates
- Accurate AoO rules.
What I didn't like was the story and the recruitable NPCs, and the lack of notable party banter. I always wished there was a ToEE mod to replace the story with Baldur's Gate.
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I loved the combat system in Temple of Elemental Evil, up to and including:
- The ability to delay actions by dragging your character's pictures across the initiative.
- Very fancy spell-shape templates
- Accurate AoO rules.What I didn't like was the story and the recruitable NPCs, and the lack of notable party banter. I always wished there was a ToEE mod to replace the story with Baldur's Gate.
for you, me and millions that is the dream.
For NWN, same here.
Just so I get my assumptions correct, you ARE the same Aleron who was a GM on World Serpent Inn server, yes?
Did no one play Nwn2: Storm of Zehir? Crazy sand box, make your own party, group conversation!
I almost enjoyed it me than the OC, but I love my paladin or favored soul being called Knight Captain and being Lord of a keep :D
For NWN, same here.Just so I get my assumptions correct, you ARE the same Aleron who was a GM on World Serpent Inn server, yes?
You would be correct. I miss it, had a lot of good memories there!
You would be correct.For NWN, same here.Just so I get my assumptions correct, you ARE the same Aleron who was a GM on World Serpent Inn server, yes?
Thought so! Long time no see. I was Axioanarchist/BlackCaprice there.
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Thought so! Long time no see. I was Axioanarchist/BlackCaprice there.
Haha! I remember you and your group. Always a blast to DM for and watch roleplaying.
The worst things about NWN 1&2 was the Editor. You had to go though so much just to get basic things setup. lt really wasn't a very user-friendly work environment. Having said that I did enjoy most of the included campaigns., especially being able to (later) go in and tweak things.
I'd be pretty pleased for a Pathfinder NWN-style game. Ecstatic if they put together a decently user-friendly Editor.
I like Obsidian. New Vegas was a enjoyable game, especially if you'd read the Van Buuren design documents a few too many times, and I like NeverWinter Nights 2.
That being said...I own New Vegas on the PS3, and it damn near crippled the poor machine. After playing most of the game and the four DLC's it would lock up about every thirty minutes, meaning I ended up rushing the last part of the game to get finished.
I've seen too many examples of games being rushed out to meet demands by the producers to blame it entirely on Obsidian, but unless the trailers really grab me, I'll probably wait a few patches before getting another of there games.
Just picture that: a TB game (like ToEE) with Pathfinder rules. But that's not all: aside from the main campaign that happens in Golarion, there's also modules remakes of classics CRPG's campaigns (IWD 1 & 2, NWN 1 & 2, BG 1 & 2). And from time to time they release a module campaign based in a Adventure Path. How would you like that?
- I think I would donate my kidney for something like that (kidding, but you got the idea).
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I feel so old - I never played any of the games being referenced in this thread. I'm still disappointed Zork gave in to this new fangled graphics fad. :(
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About. Damned. Time.
Also, a development studio in my city is working on a digital Pathfinder project? How interesting.
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West of podium 0/0
You are standing in an open square west of a podium, with a screaming mayor on it.
There are squealing goblins here.
>_
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a Barghest.
>_
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I loved new vegas, I think aside from a good number of glitches it had it was a fun game and rather solid. And the stick of truth was one of the best RPGs I've played this year. It was very well done, the graphics looked like I was actually in the show. And the turn based combat was very good. If they put that kind of commitment to a turn based Pathfinder game I am very excited to see what they may turn out.
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Pillars of Eternity is going to be the ultimate Litmus Test for the Obsidian naysayers.
It is a game that:
A: Is an original IP.
B: Isn't a sequel to someone elses work.
C: Has all the time in the world to get finished, no publisher breathing down their neck.
If this game come out and rocks everyone socks off (like Divinity: Original Sin has done recently), I think we will see a lot of the negativity surrounding Obsidian dissipate.
Time will tell.
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Who else is simply in love with the recent RPG resurgence. I mean we have:
Divinity: Original Sin
Pillars of Eternity
Torment: Tides of Numenera
Wasteland 2
Dragon Age: Inquisition (hesitated to include this one as the juries still out on whether they can correct the mistakes of DA2)
The Witcher 3 (not really the same type of RPG, but looks F'in awesome nonetheless)
And now add a Pathfinder CRPG to that list. Its like the 90's/early 2000's all over again!
<Makes saving throw to resist temptation to go into a huge off-topic rant on the ME3 endings and other recent BioWare failings>
Anyway, I will admit that I often have not liked Obsidians "darker and edgier" sequels to prior successful games. I hope if they make some original work for Paizo, they can resist that impulse to grimdarkify everything.
... And here I thought I'd be able to wait until laundry day. Every time I look at that picture and consider the possibilities, I need to change.
Seriously though, I have played KoToR, KoToR 2, FO3, and FO:NV so many times, I've practically memorized every bit of those games. Sure, there were bugs, but... Bad stories, come on? KoToR 2 had a good story, not as great as KoToR, but I found it to be only about a half-star off from KoToR (if they had managed to finish the rest of the stuff, rather than needing to rush it, it'd likely get that half star back).
I don't get this NV hate either, between Old World Blues' hilarity, and Lonesome Road's tying of everything together, it easily skyrocketed up my like list. This coming from the guy who preferred FO3's system, and only came to enjoy FO:NV due to his fiance playing it while he watched.
I'd comment on NWN and NWN 2, but it's been years since I've played those since my old man took them when I moved out. From what I recall of them, they were pretty good themselves.
Now excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor, find yet another new pair of boxers, and get this heart transplant since my first one exploded from all the excitement. Finally getting a freaking CRPG of PF.... *eye twitch. Explodes in small thermonuclear explosion*
You forgot D: The beta test for the kickstarter backers supposedly begins next Monday :).Pillars of Eternity is going to be the ultimate Litmus Test for the Obsidian naysayers.
It is a game that:
A: Is an original IP.
B: Isn't a sequel to someone elses work.
C: Has all the time in the world to get finished, no publisher breathing down their neck.If this game come out and rocks everyone socks off (like Divinity: Original Sin has done recently), I think we will see a lot of the negativity surrounding Obsidian dissipate.
Time will tell.
Oh indeed, and as a backer I cant wait. But for the purpose of my point, its the final product that matters.
I don't get this NV hate either, between Old World Blues' hilarity, and Lonesome Road's tying of everything together, it easily skyrocketed up my like list. This coming from the guy who preferred FO3's system, and only came to enjoy FO:NV due to his fiance playing it while he watched.
Granted, Old World Blues was by far the best DLC for F:NV, but it didn't come close to Point Lookout, imo. Lonesome Road, on the other hand, was...painful. All you do is follow linear designes areas and listen to the self-righteous blabber of a huffy idiot. Worse, he tries to impose a background on you that doesn't even make any sense and completely takes away the image of your character. In the end, you can nuke one or both fractions, ridiculing the whole nuclear war in the process. For when you travel to the destroyed area, there are only super-strong ghouls, not death and suffering.
The main game wasn't even Fallout anymore. It was 'sometimes after the whole thing', not the harsh survival of the previous games. Take Goodsprings for example, a nice, quiet town, close to a freshwater source (hence the name), with little farms and livestock. Surrounded by the most deadly predators the game has to offer. More or less unguarded. The other settlements are hardly any better, and the whole war between the NCR and the Legion is ridiculous at best. I mean, don't get me started on the Legion, I've yet to see a group in another game that was so poorly written, so awkward, yet so cocky it simply hurt. I tried to follow their questline, I intentionally made a character with an intelligence of 2 (don't remind me of the absolutely dreadful implemented 'stupid dialogue' lines), but even that didn't help to see it through till the end. I couldn't take any of this guys remotely serious. Even worse, you never get to be part of them (ok, maybe it's not that bad in that case), or any group at all. You have absolutely no connection to the world, and the game doesn't even try to change this. The whole main quest just isn't your problem, and absolutely nothing will change the outcome. Yeah, take the bloody dam if you want, I'm outta here.
Still, there were things I liked. Veronica as a follower was a pleasant company, and while her personal quest sounded interesting, it was poorly executed and felt hollow in the end. The same goes for Cass, sadly. Honestly, I think this is one of the main problems of the game. It has likeable or interesting NPCs (some, like the King), but in the end, they feel shallow, like there was something you still had to do, to say, but can't.
Rant end, it's a little off topic anyway.
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Fallout New Vegas is generally considered far better than F3, from what I've gathered. Maybe just within the community that liked the older Fallout games though.
NV got worse reviews on release because Bethesda let it be known they wouldn't punish any magazine or website that gave NV negative reviews for bugs by pulling their advertising (whilst with FO3, OBLIVION and SKYRIM, all heavily bugged on release, they made it clear they would). This was because if NV sold a certain number of copies and got a high enough metacritic score, Bethesda would have to give Obsidian a substantial bonus (seven figures, apparently). NV hit the sales target with insane ease - it sold 5 million copies in its first month compared to FO3's 3 million and is Bethesda's second-biggest-selling game behind only SKYRIM - but missed the metacritic score by one point, so Obsidian didn't get their bonus and Bethesda saved a lot of money.
Ironically, NV is now all patched up and works fine whilst age has not been so kind to FO3, which can be very hit and miss on Windows 7 and 8 systems. Certainly in critical reappraisals, there seems to be a strong preference for NV over FO3, for the vastly superior writing, reactivity of the game, freedom of choice, consequences of decisions and the better companion characters (who are actually characters with their own storylines, motivations and goals, not just extra backpacks and guns), not to mention the much stronger DLC. The areas where FO3 is better than NV are very limited: FO3's opening hour or two are a lot better and newcomer-friendly (NV's opening town is dull as hell) and that's really about it.
And don't start with the publisher-excuse. That's old and worn out and it's something I will always, ALWAYS think of when I think Obsidian (Obsidian? The guys who are always blaming their publisher?)
Well, it's a matter of record that Obsidian were screwed over massively by Bethesda, and would have been worse if the studio arm of Bethesda hadn't protected them, and they were badly mistreated by Sega, who released a buggy beta build of ALPHA PROTOCOL after refusing to pay Obsidian to do the final game polish. OTOH, Obsidian's relationship with Atari (PILLARS OF ETERNITY started as an ICEWIND DALE III pitch to Atari which was turned down), Square Enix and Ubisoft appears to have been very good.
The awkward one was LucasArts, which seems to have been a misunderstanding: Obsidian asked for an extra 6-8 months to finish KotOR 2 and make it a bigger and better game and LucasArts said yes but didn't adjust the contract. LucasArts then checked their budget and saw they couldn't do it and said they needed to hit the original date, by which time Obsidian had already reset their production schedule, and had to scramble to cut out the extra stuff again and get the game out on time. Obsidian should really have gotten the deadline extension in writing before doing anything, but they decided to take things on trust instead.
they lost a lot of fans with dragon age 2. why they so radically changed there biggest selling game ever, I will never understand.
DRAGON AGE: ORIGINS was in development for over five years. BioWare have never said how much they spent on it, but it was certainly vastly more than they should have and it was only having other teams making other successful games in the meantime (JADE EMPIRE and the first MASS EFFECT) which prevented it from becoming a major financial drain. When EA took over they were apparently so aghast at what they saw had been spent that they demanded console versions of the game (despite BioWare's promise it would be PC-only) and also ordered a quickie sequel on a minimal budget and less than a year's production time which would help recoup the costs of the first game. This so upset DA:O's lead designer that he quit the company altogether.
Considering the circumstances it was made under, I quite liked DA2. They took a very bad deal and ran with it to make a reasonably entertaining (and, by BioWare's standards, somewhat experimental) game.
I own New Vegas on the PS3, and it damn near crippled the poor machine
That's the GameBryo/Creation engine and the problems it has with PS3 memory. The same thing happens on OBLIVION, FALLOUT 3 and SKYRIM if you play them for long enough. Eventually the PS3 can't cope with keeping track of all the changed states you put in the world (remembering where every fallen arrow and moved book is) and falls over and dies. The X-Box 360 version does the same thing, it just takes a lot longer.
Also, a development studio in my city is working on a digital Pathfinder project? How interesting.
Hey Scott, didn't you go to the Obsidian party for when they got the Kickstarter money for PoE?
The main game wasn't even Fallout anymore. It was 'sometimes after the whole thing',
Er, that is what FALLOUT is about. WASTELAND's vibe is more post-apocalyptic, but FALLOUT is post-post apocalyptic. It's been a long time since the nuclear war, the worst of the fallout and the battle for survival is over and people are starting to rebuild and reconstruct. FALLOUT 2, 3 and NV are all set 200+ years after the war, so an immediate post-apocalyptic society doesn't make any sense (and FO1, set 100 years after, still had society moving on). That's why FO3 is so weird, it looks like the bombs fell just a few weeks earlier and DC is all but still smouldering. 200 years after the fact, it should be pretty much all gone back to nature.
NEW VEGAS does much better with that vibe, with the only really questionable thing being if Hoover Dam should still be standing. But it is said several times that various factions have managed to keep the thing repaired and standing in the interim, which at least addresses the issue.
For me, it was the opposite. I found the amount of stuff that was still "immediately after nuclear war" (ie the garbage and wood houses half destroyed from the nuclear exchange) to be more immersion-breaking than the thingsthat were already reclaimed. My guess is that after 250 years or so the world would look more naturalistic outside of the big cities.
In any case I found both Fallout 3 and New Vegas to be worthy successors to the franchise. Definitely better than Tactics.
I like Obsidian. New Vegas was a enjoyable game, especially if you'd read the Van Buuren design documents a few too many times, and I like NeverWinter Nights 2.
That being said...I own New Vegas on the PS3, and it damn near crippled the poor machine. After playing most of the game and the four DLC's it would lock up about every thirty minutes, meaning I ended up rushing the last part of the game to get finished.
I've seen too many examples of games being rushed out to meet demands by the producers to blame it entirely on Obsidian, but unless the trailers really grab me, I'll probably wait a few patches before getting another of there games.
That's a pretty well known problem with the PS3. It's address space simply wasn't large enough to handle large games with DLC. It's why the DLC took so long to get to the PS3 for Skyrim: they couldn't get it to work due to the technical restrictions on the PS3. Not lack of skill, mind you.
Sony had engineers whose specialty was to overcome these restrictions, and would send them out to companies to help them overcome the limitations.
Just an aside: does it make sense to tackle Fallout 3 and New vegas without any knowledge from the previous games? Or would I be missing too much?
Just an aside: does it make sense to tackle Fallout 3 and New vegas without any knowledge from the previous games? Or would I be missing too much?
it's not necessary. though fallout 2 is the best game in the series, and remains the no. 1 ranked RPG on the RPG codex and no 2. on the PC gamer list.
Just an aside: does it make sense to tackle Fallout 3 and New vegas without any knowledge from the previous games? Or would I be missing too much?
Not at all. I started with fallout 3 then did fonv and i didnt have an issue whatsoever. Im currently playing the originals and torment to prepare myself for WL2 and PoE since i dont have much jistory with isometric view games.
Dead Money made me throw money at my screen when i heard they were kickstarting. FONV was my first game by obsidian and i hated it at first because i thought it was boring and not fun exploration wise as FO3, but bite the bullet and played again and tried different things, things not spelt out for ya and was amazed at the stuff that u can do that isnt spelt out for ya. It had some faults (ulyssus...sigh) and while the Legion is an amazing faction, it wasnt fleshed out fully ingame. Lots of good memories in that game, clocked in over 1200 hours and still havent done everything.On topic-do we know by chance when the press release will be today? I got a long morning of nothing to do besides take meds for this cold i got and wondered when i shoukd set my alarm clock for lol.
RPG would be nice but my moneys on the card game, it woudnt cost too much or take too long to design, it could be played as multi-player online, you could have loads of expansions as each set is released, much like the magic game and maybe unlock rare cards when you beat opponenst online? With the success of the boxed game and card sets it seems like a logical step.
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Just an aside: does it make sense to tackle Fallout 3 and New vegas without any knowledge from the previous games? Or would I be missing too much?it's not necessary. though fallout 2 is the best game in the series, and remains the no. 1 ranked RPG on the RPG codex and no 2. on the PC gamer list.
Fallout 2 is an awesome game. I would recommend picking up Follout 1/2 on GoG or Steam far more than Fallout 3 or New Vegas. They are dirt cheap, and still fun despite the now dated graphics.
So, next is Intelligent Systems making a hex grid, turn-based strategy game called War of the River Kingdoms, right?