I think that there should be a requirement of not having anything in your offhand for the errataed fencing grace (or nothing else then a buckler). Perhaps also making the weapon work with finesse.
basicly make the dervish dancer effect, I mean a longsword is not better than a scimitar, so why would it be inbalanced to have the same possible feat for both? The only possible abuse I can see (i dont think they are abusive but heh) are falcata and katana, who are a bit better than a scimitar.so a 4 word edit + a sentence that explain to keep one hand empty and it would have been a feat where no one would have complained. I challenge anyone to complain about that as too strong. I would gladly point them to the mountain of previous evidence that would show it's unfounded.
Slashing Grace (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of [light or] one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage [and attack]. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
You really should scroll back a lil bit, and hit that FAQ and Favorite button there friend.
He's not your friend, buddy.
He's not your friend, buddy.
He's not your buddy, guy.
He's not your friend, buddy.He's not your buddy, guy.
He's not your guy, pal.
He's not your guy, pal.He's not your friend, buddy.He's not your buddy, guy.
He's not your guy, amigo.
He's not your guy, amigo.He's not your guy, pal.He's not your friend, buddy.He's not your buddy, guy.
No es su amigo, compadre.
No es su amigo, compadre.He's not your guy, amigo.He's not your guy, pal.He's not your friend, buddy.He's not your buddy, guy.
I'll be your friend. :)
Who else expects a revised Weapon Finesse in Pathfinder Unchained? It seems like the perfect book to include a true Dex-to-damage option.
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I'm almost everybody's friend! :)
More seriously: As someone somewhat in the middle on this issue (I was actually deeply upset by Slashing Grace before Fencing Grace was revealed, but felt much better after Fencing Grace was shown) I think everyone needs to take a step back and consider what they're saying.
I'm cool with adding a more generic Dex-to-damage Feat. Seems perfectly reasonable from a balance perspective. However, I think people are reading way too much into Paizo's motivations here, and thus getting personally offended in a way that makes little sense given the evidence presented, and then lashing out emotionally in a way that's damaging to the message. We have little or no evidence that this is some terrible conspiracy on Paizo's part to keep Dagger users from ever getting Dex to damage, it's far more probable that they simply consider Dex-to-damage a niche build outside Swashbucklers (who have these Feat options) and Rogues or Slayers (who can get Fencing Grace and have Sneak Attack for damage to boot) and potentially mechanically problematic if acquired too easily. Whether they're right about that or not, it's not an active hatred of Dex-to-damage or anything like that.
In short, I'm not clear at all that this is an agenda on Paizo's part (and certainly not on any individual staff member's part), and people should calm down. Much as many of the concerns in this thread are reasonable and legitimate, tossing around accusations of Paizo having a sinister agenda to prevent Dex-to-damage (or even seeming to do so) come across as irrational (I suspect especially to the people at Paizo) and I suspect damage the ability of this thread to achieve anything meaningful. So, I strongly recommend calm and reasoned discussion rather than accusations if you want to achieve much of anything.
I think you are misrepresenting most people here by saying that.
I think we are just a bit disappointed that they keep dancing around this issue for "balance concerns" when it has been clearly established that it would create no issues. If it would, I would create more feats that key off Strength. If anything, martials need the love.
I FAQ'd it, but the biggest problem with this is that you have Slashing Grace in the ACG, the hardback rule book line, while Fencing Grace will appear in a player companion. So if a GM doesn't allow splat books and only the hardback rule books (something several posters have mentioned their GM already does), then they won't have access to Fencing Grace, shoehorning every Finesse character into having to use slashing only weapons.
I know I don't because of things like sacred geometry. I treat splat book stuff like homebrew.
I would really like to see a way for monks to get DEX/damage other than investing in Agile Brass Knuckles which forces them to give up their unarmed strike damage.
Even if I have to invest in tiger/boar/snake style to do it
Honestly, as far as giving something to swashbucklers goes without worrying about other classes abusing it, I would simply have a feat that applies their dex bonus instead of strength (with appropriate weapons) whose only requirement is "3rd-level Swashbuckler" or something to the effect. Or really just hand it to them, possibly in the form of an always-on deed somewhere along the line, but that ship has likely sailed.
That said, I can't object in principle from anything that encourages them to go with a rapier and buckler build over two-weapon, because wow is that ever a trap option as it stands.
I'm cool with adding a more generic Dex-to-damage Feat. Seems perfectly reasonable from a balance perspective. However, I think people are reading way too much into Paizo's motivations here, and thus getting personally offended in a way that makes little sense given the evidence presented, and then lashing out emotionally in a way that's damaging to the message. We have little or no evidence that this is some terrible conspiracy on Paizo's part to keep Dagger users from ever getting Dex to damage, it's far more probable that they simply consider Dex-to-damage a niche build outside Swashbucklers (who have these Feat options) and Rogues or Slayers (who can get Fencing Grace and have Sneak Attack for damage to boot) and potentially mechanically problematic if acquired too easily. Whether they're right about that or not, it's not an active hatred of Dex-to-damage or anything like that.
While I appreciate the motive behind your post Deadmanwalking, it's hard to read this as anything but that Paizo really doesn't want folks to have meaningful dex to damage options in a core line product.
And it's a downright travesty that a battleaxe is getting dex to damage before the iconic dagger. It's somewhat dishonest to deny Rapier dex to damage and then turn around and put it in a splatbook as if that makes everything hunky dory. For PFS, it's essentially a tax in a more literal sense and for everyone else it's just meaningless bloat.
I feel this way because a Scimitar is essentially a Rapier mechanically. People wanted rapiers for flavor. Does Paizo dislike flavorful character options? Why do they allow battleaxes and bastard swords to get dex to damage before rapiers and daggers which are far more flavorful swashbuckler weapons?
What is the design philosophy where that makes sense?
I would really like to see a way for monks to get DEX/damage other than investing in Agile Brass Knuckles which forces them to give up their unarmed strike damage.
Even if I have to invest in tiger/boar/snake style to do it
Amulet of Mighty fists.
The thing you are looking for is amulet of mighty fists
Still I would prefer to do it with a feat.
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Taking a step back and looking at this again.
You can still take Slashing Grace, which is in the core books as a straight Dex to Damage feat, to use with a Scimitar or (if you want to TWF) Wakizashis Sawtooth Sabres. This should make it clear that Paizo is not hand-wringing over the balance non-issue at this very late juncture. I think they just plain overlooked that the feat excludes Rapiers.
I don't like the Weapon Focus requirement, but I'll live with it.
What I (and a lot of other people in this thread) ultimately take issue with is the proposed method of patching the feat. This should be an Errata to the feat in the ACG, not a separate Rapier-specific feat in a splatbook.
You can't take Slashing Grace with Wakizashis, as those are small, not one handed.
Also, thinking about it, I don't see why blunt weapons have to be left out. Or unarmed strikes. I could even see a quarter staff based swash. They are in no way less thematic than picks and axes.
And yes, if the feat can include Battle Axes it can jolly well include Light weapons too.
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I think you are misrepresenting most people here by saying that.
Okay, in case this wasn't clear, I'm not necessarily accusing anyone of anything. I'm noting how the thread came across, and suggesting that the tone it comes across as is counterproductive.
I think we are just a bit disappointed that they keep dancing around this issue for "balance concerns" when it has been clearly established that it would create no issues. If it would, I would create more feats that key off Strength. If anything, martials need the love.
Where did they say Slashing Grace was limited due to balance concerns? I haven't heard that said anywhere.
Yes, Paizo defence force(tm) your right.
I'm perfectly happy to criticize Paizo, actually. See my posts regarding Slashing Grace before the Fencing Grace reveal, or my comments on the rogue and fighter in general, or my deep rage at the utter inappropriateness of the pre-Errata Inquisitions lists per deity.
I try and do so respectfully, though. Both because that's the polite and friendly thing to do, and because being unpleasant to people is a bad way to convince them to do what you want.
We shouldn't be upset that we were lied to, AGAIN, over something we been telling them to do since the ALPHA PLAYTEST. Over claims of Balance, which has been mathematically proven false, REPEATEDLY.
Sounds perfectly reasonable.
Where did they claim that there would be a generic Dex-to-damage Feat? Please cite such a thing, because I haven't seen such a thing...all I've seen is notes that there would be a Dex-to-damage option in the Feats, which there is. So...how were you lied to?
While I appreciate the motive behind your post Deadmanwalking, it's hard to read this as anything but that Paizo really doesn't want folks to have meaningful dex to damage options in a core line product.
And it's a downright travesty that a battleaxe is getting dex to damage before the iconic dagger. It's somewhat dishonest to deny Rapier dex to damage and then turn around and put it in a splatbook as if that makes everything hunky dory. For PFS, it's essentially a tax in a more literal sense and for everyone else it's just meaningless bloat.
I feel this way because a Scimitar is essentially a Rapier mechanically. People wanted rapiers for flavor. Does Paizo dislike flavorful character options? Why do they allow battleaxes and bastard swords to get dex to damage before rapiers and daggers which are far more flavorful swashbuckler weapons?
What is the design philosophy where that makes sense?
Well, going by their actual words in the ACG product thread...they actually just forgot about the rapier for a moment at a critical time. That's actually pretty plausible. People make mistakes, after all. So...that's at least as good an explanation as some kind of malice.
Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!
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what about the swash archetype that is designed to throw daggers
I mean... "we made a finesse feat that works with everything except finesse weapons" is a pretty ridiculous mistake. A lot of people must have green lighted Slashing Grace before it went to the printers. Did nobody seriously stop and say "hey wait, you do realize this feat doesn't work with anything we expect the Swashbuckler to use, right?".
Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class. I suspect it's more like they just didn't think of them in the context in question.
I also suspect they just plain missed including Light weapons in that list, but daggers absolutely are an iconic Swashbuckling weapon. They are the traditional off-hand weapon as a companion to a rapier, if you're not using a buckler. Actually, some styles even involved holding both a buckler and dagger in the same hand, with a sword in the other. And it's not hard to imagine an Eastern Swashbuckler using a Katana and Wakizashi.
Taking a step back and looking at this again.
You can still take Slashing Grace, which is in the core books as a straight Dex to Damage feat, to use with a Scimitar or (if you want to TWF)
WakizashisSawtooth Sabres. This should make it clear that Paizo is not hand-wringing over the balance non-issue at this very late juncture. I think they just plain overlooked that the feat excludes Rapiers.I don't like the Weapon Focus requirement, but I'll live with it.
What I (and a lot of other people in this thread) ultimately take issue with is the proposed method of patching the feat. This should be an Errata to the feat in the ACG, not a separate Rapier-specific feat in a splatbook.
You can't use Slashing Grace, with exception of the Aldori Dueling Sword or Whip, without dipping Swashbuckler as you don't gain Dex to Attack with Slashing Grace.
It's funny, because part of the point of the ACG was to make it easier to play a certain type of character without needing to dip classes to make it function.
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I also suspect they just plain missed including Light weapons in that list, but daggers absolutely are an iconic Swashbuckling weapon. They are the traditional off-hand weapon as a companion to a rapier, if you're not using a buckler. Actually, some styles even involved holding both a buckler and dagger in the same hand, with a sword in the other. And it's not hard to imagine an Eastern Swashbuckler using a Katana and Wakizashi.Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class. I suspect it's more like they just didn't think of them in the context in question.
Here's the thing, if they made a mistake, they should fix it. Instead of releasing an entirely separate feat in a separate book that only fixes a single weapon, they should fix the core issue that is Slashing Grace not being a functioning or appropriate feat.
Honestly what would have been wrong with a feat giving dex to damage on all weapon finessable weapons?
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Honestly what would have been wrong with a feat giving dex to damage on all weapon finessable weapons?
All might be pushing it. Any one seems entirely reasonable, though, both mechanically and thematically. I'm just not convinced the lack of such a Feat is an intentional slap in the face to people who want such a thing on Paizo's part.
Honestly what would have been wrong with a feat giving dex to damage on all weapon finessable weapons?All might be pushing it. Any one seems entirely reasonable, though, both mechanically and thematically. I'm just not convinced the lack of such a Feat is an intentional slap in the face to people who want such a thing on Paizo's part.
I'm perfectly fine with a feat that forces you to select a single weapon to make dex to damage, as long as you can select the feat multiple times or something. It's what they should have done from the first place.
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Honestly what would have been wrong with a feat giving dex to damage on all weapon finessable weapons?All might be pushing it. Any one seems entirely reasonable, though, both mechanically and thematically. I'm just not convinced the lack of such a Feat is an intentional slap in the face to people who want such a thing on Paizo's part.
When one takes a metamagic feat, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, ect they aren't forced to pick one Spell, weapon, or anything. Someone is spending a feat, something they get ~10 of and a non-replaceable resource in order to get this dex to damage. What is the reasoning that makes you feel that "all is pushing it?" Caution, personal experience, or the worries of the developers at Paizo?
In addition forcing weapon focus and a separate feat for each weapon just further pushes a player into the "this is my weapon" mind set that makes DMs hate giving out loot.
DM: Check out the plot weapon of plot!
Player: But it's not a X, so I can't use it. I give it to my cohort.
DM: 0_0 :(
In practice the "greater Weapon finesse" we've been using in my home games has never been a problem considering how strong the str*1.5 and heavy/medium armor is.
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Honestly what would have been wrong with a feat giving dex to damage on all weapon finessable weapons?All might be pushing it. Any one seems entirely reasonable, though, both mechanically and thematically. I'm just not convinced the lack of such a Feat is an intentional slap in the face to people who want such a thing on Paizo's part.When one takes a metamagic feat, Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, ect they aren't forced to pick one Spell, weapon, or anything. Someone is spending a feat, something they get ~10 of and a non-replaceable resource in order to get this dex to damage. What is the reasoning that makes you feel that "all is pushing it?" Caution, personal experience, or the worries of the developers at Paizo?
In addition forcing weapon focus and a separate feat for each weapon just further pushes a player into the "this is my weapon" mind set that makes DMs hate giving out loot.
DM: Check out the plot weapon of plot!
Player: But it's not a X, so I can't use it. I give it to my cohort.
DM: 0_0 :(In practice the "greater Weapon finesse" we've been using in my home games has never been a problem considering how strong the str*1.5 and heavy/medium armor is.
Have to agree on this point.
As far as balance goes, there's usually not much difference between unlocking dex-to-damage for one melee weapon vs. unlocking it for all of them. After all, someone with Dervish Dance is always going to be using a scimitar if they have any choice in the matter, and thus will always get dex-to-damage.
The only real difference unlocking all finesse weapons would open up a lot more creative options, and it would let the character change which weapon they use. I don't think being able to pick use a club or dagger instead of a rapier is a game-breaker. The worst it would do is let dex-fighters use a golfbag of weapons similar to str-fighters, but that's always been of limited use anyway due to how magic items and WBL work.
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i did read the thread, and i disagree with the conclusion, and i completely concur with what the developers have previously said that such a feat would destroy game balance.
Ah, okay. So it is acceptable if they (in your words) destroy the game balance in four different ways already (Slashing Grace, Fencing Grace, Dervish Dance, Agile enchantment), but if we ask for a more generic way of accomplishing the very same thing as those four abilities do, we are wrong?
I kinda miss the logical connections in your argument. ^^
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I say this because Jason Bulmahn stated he thinks Mythic Weapon Finesse is probably too powerful even for Mythic.
I am literally at a loss for words. :-/
I also suspect they just plain missed including Light weapons in that list, but daggers absolutely are an iconic Swashbuckling weapon. They are the traditional off-hand weapon as a companion to a rapier, if you're not using a buckler. Actually, some styles even involved holding both a buckler and dagger in the same hand, with a sword in the other. And it's not hard to imagine an Eastern Swashbuckler using a Katana and Wakizashi.Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class. I suspect it's more like they just didn't think of them in the context in question.
+1
Dex to Damage wouldn't be as big of an imagined problem if Strength did anything beyond attack, damage and increasing carrying capacity (Which a huge amount of groups flat out ignore)
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I say this because Jason Bulmahn stated he thinks Mythic Weapon Finesse is probably too powerful even for Mythic.I am literally at a loss for words. :-/
This is clearly not true as you have used words to convey your alleged lack of words. Thus you have abused the word 'literally' in what should be, but sadly isn't yet, considered a crime against the English language, and her right-speaking peoples, tantamount to a declaration of war.
Tally-ho
Also: I find it funny they consider saying that the devs are stupid when they do something stupid is now a personal insult.
Actually, yeah, it definitely is a personal insult. Criticising their work is what every professional writer is expected to live with. Criticising their intelligence, well, that happens to be a personal insult and over the line.
This is clearly not true as you have used words to convey your alleged lack of words. Thus you have abused the word 'literally' in what should be, but sadly isn't yet, considered a crime against the English language, and her right-speaking peoples, tantamount to a declaration of war.
Tally-ho
Great Scott, you might be right! However, I must insist that my loss of ability to express my disbelief on that particular topic does not in any way affect my ability to say stuff unrelated to it.
what about the swash archetype that is designed to throw daggers
I mean... "we made a finesse feat that works with everything except finesse weapons" is a pretty ridiculous mistake. A lot of people must have green lighted Slashing Grace before it went to the printers. Did nobody seriously stop and say "hey wait, you do realize this feat doesn't work with anything we expect the Swashbuckler to use, right?".
That's pretty much where my mental disconnect about their thought process happens, yep.
As someone who has played in a Game involving Mythic Weapon Finesse, I can say with a great deal of certainty that the TWF dex-to-damage fighter still dealt significantly less than the big hyper STR gargantuan-level-unarmed-strike monk.
STR is far more easy to pump, there are an infinite number of ways to glean extra damage from it, and you gain a higher chance to hit from it all. There is literally no possible way that adding a basic dex-to-damage generic feat would be at all gamebreaking. There are already several ways to accomplish it, but each of them is masked behind tight restrictions and requirements, or irrational use limitations.
Give me a feat that requires weapon finesse and weapon focus and says any weapon you have weapon focus in that is subject to weapon finesse gets dex to damage and I will be a happy camper. Easily sets up tons of weapons for easy Dex-to-damage but still requires some feat investment. Leaving Slashing Grace around to help qualify other weapons that people might want to use, but take the dex-to-damage out of it and simply make it a feat that lets you apply a 1-handed weapon of your choice to weapon finesse.
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Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class.
ignore the fact that daggers are typical off-hand weapons of daring-do everywhere, Why should people with larger imaginations be limited to what you think is "Iconic"?
It's really silly how much they hate a clean dex to dmg option
Why do they allow battleaxes and bastard swords to get dex to damage before rapiers and daggers which are far more flavorful swashbuckler weapons?
What is the design philosophy where that makes sense?
I'm generally of the opinion that all finesseable weapons should have a route to get Dex to damage, but I will point out that your average classic swashbuckling pirate was vastly more likely to pack an axe of one variety or another than a rapier.
It's really silly how much they hate a clean dex to dmg option
I wouldn't say they hate it, they're just unwilling to give one. I think they just have very strong reservations about it, kind of harkens back to the Crane Wing thing.
Crane Wing can make a character defensively powerful, without sacrificing much in the way of offensive (at least not like other defensive options do). So even though the character doesn't do as much damage as without Crane Wing, they will still be able to win fights because their defensive is stronger than the enemies offense, while the enemies defense is weaker than the Cranes offense.
Same applies to Dex to Damage. They're worried about huge swaths of people switching over to entirely Dexterity builds, having decent offense, and great defense.
I think it's an unfounded worry as Dervish Dance and agile have both existed for some time now and yet I still see mostly strength based characters.
Honestly what would have been wrong with a feat giving dex to damage on all weapon finessable weapons?
Absolutely nothing. It would be a perfectly elegant and balanced option.
You may use your DEX modifier instead of STR for determining bonus damage to melee weapon attacks for weapons which have the finesse special quality. For one handed light or one-handed slashing weapons for which you have the weapon focus feat you may treat them as piercing weapons for the purpose if class abilities which require light or one handed piercing weapons.this does not change the damage type for purposes of overcoming DR and only applies if the weapon is wielded in one hand.
STR is far more easy to pump, there are an infinite number of ways to glean extra damage from it, and you gain a higher chance to hit from it all. There is literally no possible way that adding a basic dex-to-damage generic feat would be at all gamebreaking. There are already several ways to accomplish it, but each of them is masked behind tight restrictions and requirements, or irrational use limitations.
Just to bring up one of my favorite examples, pretty much every size-increasing spell comes with a strength buff as well, and martials love size increases. (More reach + higher damage dice). Most of the size-increasing effects not only don't buff dexterity, they usually reduce it. Barring 3PP, the only way to increase your size category and get a dex boost is the Elemental Body III/IV spell, which as level 6/7 personal-range spell isn't all that accessible to martials.