A More Generic 'Dex to Damage' Feat - Includes ACG


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Arachnofiend wrote:

Uh... yeah, they do.

"Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."

Besides, the main thing that frustrates me is how friggin good the Falcata Kensai is going to be. The Magus was the best Dervish Dancer and will now be the best Slashing Grace user.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Your first statement makes me think you disagree with me, but you quote the line which supports my statement.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!
The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class. I suspect it's more like they just didn't think of them in the context in question.

Or the complete opposite.


chaoseffect wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

Uh... yeah, they do.

"Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."

Besides, the main thing that frustrates me is how friggin good the Falcata Kensai is going to be. The Magus was the best Dervish Dancer and will now be the best Slashing Grace user.

Was there a change to the feat that someone posted after the original feat(s) listed in the original post? If not, doesn't the feat only add dex to damage, not allow the use of weapon finesse with weapons that aren't already able to be used as such? If so that makes a Falcata terrible for the feat as you now counter-intuitively need strength to hit an dexterity for damage, which makes MAD worse and begs the question of why you bothered.

It's because the Swashbcukler has Swashbuckler Finesse which allows you to add your dex mod to attack rolls with a lot more weapons than Weapon Finesse does.

So a Swashbuckler 1/Magus X is going to get a lot of mileage out of Slashing Grace with those x3 Crit mods.


Gisher wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:

Uh... yeah, they do.

"Additionally, a bladed scarf dancer can wield a bladed scarf as a one-handed melee weapon."

Besides, the main thing that frustrates me is how friggin good the Falcata Kensai is going to be. The Magus was the best Dervish Dancer and will now be the best Slashing Grace user.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Your first statement makes me think you disagree with me, but you quote the line which supports my statement.

The Scarf Dancer uses it "as a one-handed weapon", like the Titan Mauler, not "can wield in one hand", like the lance.

@chaoseffect: Yeah, you need a level of Swash for dex-to-hit, but considering the benefits I think it's worth it. The Magus gets a lot more out of that stupid dip than anyone else will.


Ah, makes sense now, so thank you two for explaining it to me. Still seems a bit iffy though as the standard Magus still cares more about spell crit fishing, which is only helped by crit range as opposed to modifier, but yeah that definitely seems like a good use of the feat for a more buff-based, melee focused Magus.


chaoseffect wrote:
Ah, makes sense now, so thank you two for explaining it to me. Still seems a bit iffy though as the standard Magus still cares more about spell crit fishing, which is only helped by crit range as opposed to modifier, but yeah that definitely seems like a good use of the feat for a more buff-based, melee focused Magus.

Yeah, the Kensai is going to get a ton of mileage out of it, specially considering it needs a really high Dex...

Curiously though, the only weapons that are worth it are the Rhoka and the Falcata, and they are not even that much better than the Scimitar and the Rapier since those are already 18-20.


chaoseffect wrote:
Ah, makes sense now, so thank you two for explaining it to me. Still seems a bit iffy though as the standard Magus still cares more about spell crit fishing, which is only helped by crit range as opposed to modifier, but yeah that definitely seems like a good use of the feat for a more buff-based, melee focused Magus.

A falcata has a 19-20/x3 crit range which can be improved to a 17-20/x3 crit range. Mathematically, a flacata produces slightly higher DPR than an 18-20/x2 weapon, like a Scimitar or Kukri, even if both are improved to 17-20/x3 and 15-20/x2.

I think, for some people, the chance of landing a 30d6 intensified shocking grasp is more attractive than more regularly landing 20d6 intensified shocking grasp.

Sometimes, stealing everyone's d6s and rolling them all at once is just oodles of fun :P


When spells crit for a magus they are only multiplied by 2, not by the weapons multiplier. For a Magus Rapiers+piercing grace would be better because it will allow a buckler (compared to Dervish Dance which disallows bucklers.)

Liberty's Edge

Secret Wizard wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!
The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class. I suspect it's more like they just didn't think of them in the context in question.
Or the complete opposite.

I'm talking archetypical visuals and what people think of when they think 'Swashbuckler'. My own version of that actually does include a main gauche, but I'm pretty sure I'm not typical in that regard based on just about every movie I've ever seen with swashbuckling...

And, again, I'm hypothesizing on the motivations and thoughts of others, not stating my own.


Incidentally mine is also Rapier/Saber+Main Gauche


This feat is broken in two ways.

It is too good and not working.

Am I the only one thinking it is kind of unbalanced that a hafling Swashbuckler with 5 strength and 20 dex can use a bastarda sword and add dex to attack and damage, but an elf rogue with 14 str and 18 dex can't use a dagger or a short sword and do the same?

they really should have added a strength prerequisite and added more weapons to the list.


daggers, wakazashi, kukris, and longswords need to be options. there also needs to be one for polearms too.


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I want to be able to play a spear dancer, personally. Every time I watch a movie like Hero, or Hellboy: The Golden Army, I have a longing to play a lightly armored, agile spear wielder.


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Zark wrote:

This feat is broken in two ways.

It is too good and not working.

Am I the only one thinking it is kind of unbalanced that a hafling Swashbuckler with 5 strength and 20 dex can use a bastarda sword and add dex to attack and damage, but an elf rogue with 14 str and 18 dex can't use a dagger or a short sword and do the same?

they really should have added a strength prerequisite and added more weapons to the list.

It's not "too" good, for reasons explained ad nauseam.


I disagree


Tels wrote:
I want to be able to play a spear dancer, personally. Every time I watch a movie like Hero, or Hellboy: The Golden Army, I have a longing to play a lightly armored, agile spear wielder.

same here


Zark wrote:
I disagree

the strength build is 2 feats and a level ahead, which is a huge benefit compared to the easily and cheaply replacable aspects of dexterity, which with the exception of of initiative, are like minor, due to equipment

plus the strength guy, can carry more weapons than the dexterity guy, AND wear better armor without as much penalty. a weapon in immediate combat access is not inside a haversack, and haversacks themselves have weight.

though my problem isn't the power of Dexterity to damage and attack rolls, my problem with the feat is it completely ignores some of the classics, like polearms, daggers, kukris, wakazashi, katana, shortswords and gladiuses.


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Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Zark wrote:
I disagree

the strength build is 2 feats and a level ahead, which is a huge benefit compared to the easily and cheaply replacable aspects of dexterity, which with the exception of of initiative, are like minor, due to equipment

plus the strength guy, can carry more weapons than the dexterity guy, AND wear better armor without as much penalty. a weapon in immediate combat access is not inside a haversack, and haversacks themselves have weight.

though my problem isn't the power of Dexterity to damage and attack rolls, my problem with the feat is it completely ignores some of the classics, like polearms, daggers, kukris, wakazashi, katana, shortswords and gladiuses.

Don't forget, the Strength build is also ahead on damage with 1.5x Strength and 3:1 Power Attack.


And that str is easier to pump with all kinds of stuff like transmutation effects!


Insain Dragoon wrote:

And that str is easier to pump with all kinds of stuff like transmutation effects!

Actually, my favorite strength boosting spell is blood rage which is an enchantment spell that gives up to +10 bonus to strength and -5 penalty to AC.

To the best of my knowledge, the best Dex boosting spell is Undead Anatomy IV to turn into a tiny undead. Unlike other spells and Polymorph, I don't think there is a way to cast it on an ally.


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Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Zark wrote:
I disagree
the strength build is 2 feats and a level ahead, which is a huge benefit

Two feats ahead depends on how you look at it. The dex character basically get improved initiative, dodge and lighting reflexes for free. Not to mention it get a huge bonus to all range attacks using any weapon that basically equal weapon focus and greater weapon focus to all range weapons.

And the dex bonus in this case will:

  • Boost melee attacks
  • Boost melee damage
  • Grants higher AC – most dex based AC use light armor / mithral medium armor anyway, at higher levels bracers. The only downside is the horrible AC when you lose you dex bonus.
  • Grants higher touch AC
  • using light armor/medium mithral armor/Bracers grants you better mobility.
  • Grants better reflex saves
  • Grants higher initiative
  • boost dex skills that mostly are far superior than str skills
  • boost range attacks and range touch attack
  • Grant more attacks of opportunity

Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:


compared to the easily and cheaply replacable aspects of dexterity, which with the exception of of initiative, are like minor, due to equipment

Have no idea what you mean – no snark intended

Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:


plus the strength guy, can carry more weapons than the dexterity guy, AND wear better armor without as much penalty. a weapon in immediate combat access is not inside a haversack, and haversacks themselves have weight.

Not a problem at all, seriously.

Edit:
Also, I’ve never seen a str build melee character that dump their dex. Most – except perhaps paladins or clerics – have at least 10 and maybe even 12 or 13. Str builds don't/can't dump dex the same way a dex build can dump str. So I don't see it as a problem if a dex build were "forced" to have at least 11, 12 or even str.

Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:

[…] my problem with the feat is it completely ignores some of the classics, like polearms, daggers, kukris, wakazashi, katana, shortswords and gladiuses.

On this we totally with you on that I’m missing the light weapons. Not so sure about polearms.

Athaleon wrote:


Don't forget, the Strength build is also ahead on damage with 1.5x Strength and 3:1 Power Attack.

Balance is more than just Dex damage vs str damage. A Str 18 is obviously going to beat a dex 18 when it comes to raw damage. I never denied that, but the dex character is going to be able to deal enough damage and still getting all the other benefits. Also a str character won’t dump his dex to 7, but a dex might dump str to 7.

Also, the THW argument is silly since the dex builds such as the magus is based on not using THW or dual wielding weapons.
The “with 1.5x Strength and 3:1 Power Attack”-argument is a false argument, because the dex builds aren’t designed to use Greatswords or Falchions anyway.

Here is something from Sean's advice for the 2013 archetype round

Sean K Reynolds wrote:


A rogue archetype that says "you have to take this rogue talent at level 4" isn't cool.
A fighter archetype that says "you have to take this weapon category at level 5" isn't cool.
And, assuming that choice is especially appropriate for that character, it's not really a limitation because the character would probably want that thing anyway. A character with a dagger-fighter archetype wants to take "light blades" for weapon training, so forcing him to do it isn't a limitation to the character at all, and you shouldn't treat it like it's a penalty or weakness to justify making another new class ability better (as in, "oh, the daggermaster has to take "light blades," so to compensate for that limitation I'll give the archetype this other cool thing...").

My bold.

High dex characters aren’t going to use heavy armor or use greatswords so these kind of arguments don’t hold any water.

Insain Dragoon wrote:

And that str is easier to pump with all kinds of stuff like transmutation effects!

I would say this is not entirely true. Boosting dex and str is more or less just as easy or hard.

Most transmutation effects don’t stack and if you referring to being large there are disadvantages with that just as there are benefits, same as being small has its pros and cons.

edit 2:

I don’t mind a feat that let you swap str for dex, but this feat goes further. It almost obliterates the need for Str and use dex for str AND dex. A feat that let you swap dex for str should require you to have a decent amount of str, just as a str build have a decent amount of dex.

Grand Lodge

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Deadmanwalking wrote:


And, again, I'm hypothesizing on the motivations and thoughts of others, not stating my own.

which goes back to why everyone is upset:

Why should our ideas be constrained by the devs lack of imagination?

Mechanicly speaking, Miyata Ichirou is a swashbuckler, though currently he need to wear rope gauntlets for slashing grace to really work. There are character concepts that just do not work with out Dex over str for damage, and they are ubiquitous to the point that this series of "oops, lets add another feat tax" has gotten ridiculous, as much as the dev team trying to justify it with concerns of "Balance"

zark wrote:

My bold.

High dex characters aren’t going to use heavy armor or use greatswords so these kind of arguments don’t hold any water.

Thanks to slashing grace, they do now, as it's hands down their strongest choice, mechanically speaking.

Not that this ever stopped someone from sneak attacking with an earthbreaker before, anyway.


Tels wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Ah, makes sense now, so thank you two for explaining it to me. Still seems a bit iffy though as the standard Magus still cares more about spell crit fishing, which is only helped by crit range as opposed to modifier, but yeah that definitely seems like a good use of the feat for a more buff-based, melee focused Magus.

A falcata has a 19-20/x3 crit range which can be improved to a 17-20/x3 crit range. Mathematically, a flacata produces slightly higher DPR than an 18-20/x2 weapon, like a Scimitar or Kukri, even if both are improved to 17-20/x3 and 15-20/x2.

I think, for some people, the chance of landing a 30d6 intensified shocking grasp is more attractive than more regularly landing 20d6 intensified shocking grasp.

Sometimes, stealing everyone's d6s and rolling them all at once is just oodles of fun :P

I wish it worked like that as it would give more of an incentive to not only use 18-20 weapons, but spells only get x2 regardless of weapon modifier... I hope they change that someday for Magus.

Liberty's Edge

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9mm wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:


And, again, I'm hypothesizing on the motivations and thoughts of others, not stating my own.

which goes back to why everyone is upset:

Why should our ideas be constrained by the devs lack of imagination?

Mechanicly speaking, Miyata Ichirou is a swashbuckler, though currently he need to wear rope gauntlets for slashing grace to really work. There are character concepts that just do not work with out Dex over str for damage, and they are ubiquitous to the point that this series of "oops, lets add another feat tax" has gotten ridiculous, as much as the dev team trying to justify it with concerns of "Balance"

My issue is that it's not clear that that's what's happening. I'm not arguing against a generic Dex-to-damage Feat (I don't consider as urgent as you or others seem to, but it seems a reasonable goal), I'm arguing that from the perspective of actually achieving anything (as opposed to pointless b*~@~ing) making assumptions about the dev team's motivations isn't a useful activity. Nor is demanding this as an errata on a Feat with the name 'Slashing Grace' (you might get light slashing weapons tacked on, but certainly not any non-slashing ones given that name). Heck, even Fencing Grace is probably set in stone by now.

I'm basically attempting to give tactical advice, here. What people should be doing if they want to achieve anything is simply stating their concerns with the impact the existing Feats will have on the game, both mechanical and thematic, and requesting that some forthcoming book have a more generic Feat to do this particular thing and solve those problems. Because that might actually happen. Now, some people have certainly done this, but it tends to get buried among comments that verge on personal insults to the very people who make these kinds of decisions.

If your meal at a restaurant is not to your taste, you have a few options, including politely requesting something else next time, or leaving the restaurant never to return, or a number of other things...but berating the cook to their face as a complete incompetent who clearly made the food wrong as an intentional insult to you is not a winning strategy to get the food you really want. Same principle here, and many posts in this thread have come really close to saying exactly that kind of thing. By no means all say this, and I suspect many that seem to do it do so unintentionally...but that doesn't mean it doesn't come off that way.

As part of this I'm throwing out alternate explanations for why the folks at Paizo may have left certain weapons out. Are they correct? Maybe not. Are the more intentional theories thrown out correct? Also maybe not. Which, really, is my whole point.

Scarab Sages

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Zark wrote:


And the dex bonus in this case will:

  • Boost melee attacks

Strength users get this benefit

Quote:
  • Boost melee damage

Strength users can get this x1.5

Quote:
  • Grants higher AC – most dex based AC use light armor / mithral medium armor anyway, at higher levels bracers. The only downside is the horrible AC when you lose you dex bonus.

Strength users gain higher AC by wearing heavier armor.

Quote:
  • Grants higher touch AC

And lower Flat Footed AC

Quote:
  • using light armor/medium mithral armor/Bracers grants you better mobility.

Depends on class/build. Not better than a 7th level fighter.

Quote:
  • Grants better reflex saves

And lower carrying capacity

Quote:
  • boost range attacks and range touch attack

If you're focusing on melee, how many of either are making? If you're not focusing on melee, strength was never an option for ranged builds.

Quote:
  • Grant more attacks of opportunity

How often do you get the opportunity for even a single AoO? My kensai is allowed 5/round (from int bonus) and has yet to make 2 in the same round.


+1 to Artanthanos (and boy do I feel silly saying hipster stuff like that...), he's spot on with all of his stuff. I'll also add that if Dexterity "grants more attacks of opportunity," you're assuming that everybody has Combat Reflexes when they go Dexterity. While not a bad option, it's not really a good or terribly useful option unless you have reliable means to expend them (for example, Bodyguard feat).

I will point out that the Dex-Based Two Shield Martial I made could potentially be as competent as a given Two-Handed Martial and still have the superior defense people would claim, though this doesn't transcribe too well with leveling, as they still win out due to the mechanics of having to enhance just one weapon in comparison to two, meaning they get their +10 weapon sooner than I would get my shields to a level of +10.


Yeah you can't really assume combat reflexes when you have to grab 3 or more feats to get dex to damage.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!
The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class. I suspect it's more like they just didn't think of them in the context in question.
Or the complete opposite.
I'm talking archetypical visuals and what people think of when they think 'Swashbuckler'.

Care should be taken when stating what people thinks.


Zark wrote:


Two feats ahead depends on how you look at it. The dex character basically get improved initiative, dodge and lighting reflexes for free. Not to mention it get a huge bonus to all range attacks using any weapon that basically equal weapon focus and greater weapon focus to all range weapons.
And the dex bonus in this case will:

  • Boost melee attacks
  • Boost melee damage
  • Grants higher AC – most dex based AC use light armor / mithral medium armor anyway, at higher levels bracers. The only downside is the horrible AC when you lose you dex bonus.
  • Grants higher touch AC
  • using light armor/medium mithral armor/Bracers grants you better mobility.
  • Grants better reflex saves
  • Grants higher initiative
  • boost dex skills that mostly are far superior than str skills
  • boost range attacks and range touch attack
  • Grant more attacks of opportunity

Zark, thank you for engaging in this conversation. I wanted to make some clarifications on the list you posted, which have been echoed before.

All those benefits could be potentially gained through a two feat investment, true. But as said before, compare what is given away:

- Lower flat-footed AC due to wearing light armor.
- STR cannot be dumped completely to have access to Power Attack and its line of feats, so even those 2 feats for Dex to damage preclude a 13 STR investment, or more if you want to remove PA's attack penalty through Furious Focus. (Some of these feats: Cleave, Dreadful Carnage, Eldritch Claws, Surprise Follow-Through, Rending Claws, several throwing feats... no build can do without some of them, and the ones that do are giving up on some important benefits.) Consider that Two-Weapon builds, the ones that need these feats the least, are already paying a huge feat tax to function.
- Lower overall CMB. This is non-trivial, as your job is to do battle stuff. You can do maneuvers with your weapon, true, but that brings us to the next point...
- Weapon dependency. You need a particular kind of weapon and even then, you need to protect it or you become much more useless. A martial with 18 STR without a weapon with Improved Trip can still throw enemies prone easily, a DEX-based build cannot unless they invest on Agile Maneuvers, and that's on top of the feat taxes already. Not to mention a STR martial can just grab any weapon and be good with it, not so the DEX martial.

The last three are NON TRIVIAL disadvantages. Add to them the fact that you'll never do as much damage with a DEX build.

Also, you mention DEX skills, but STR skills are also useful and you have access to Intimidating Prowess for combat utility if you focus STR, while the DEX martial needs to invest in CHA to intimidate which is not always optimal.

I hope you realize that Dervish Dancing builds have been out for quite some time and they have yet failed to obsolete the STR martial. There are just some classes that will always prefer STR (Heavy armor proficient classes for sure, Medium armor proficient classes 50% of the time), so it's never going to be a danger.

Furthermore, the DEX build gets all the advantages you mention at the cost of POINT BUY. You can never drive a stat too high in this system, so at best you are getting a couple of extra points in Con or Wisdom, maybe.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Don't forget that they forgot about daggers too!
The Feat was made with Swashbucklers in mind, and daggers aren't really iconic to that Class. I suspect it's more like they just didn't think of them in the context in question.
Or the complete opposite.
I'm talking archetypical visuals and what people think of when they think 'Swashbuckler'.

I, for one, prefer disabusing people from preconceived notions. The fact that a parrying dagger is needed is not only important for balance (check out the Duelist PrC, which works perfectly with having an off-hand dagger to trigger Parry), but also to be able to live a fantasy properly.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Yeah you can't really assume combat reflexes when you have to grab 3 or more feats to get dex to damage.

Especially since dex builds aren't especially good at actually using attacks of opportunity. Reach/increasing your threatened area is usually a must-have if you want to focus on AoOs, and it's also a major weak point for dex builds. The only way I know of to get it is using a whip with the whip mastery feats, which would be even more feat intensive. Then there's still the fact that it's hard get size increases without eating a dex penalty.


@Artanthos and Secret Wizard: I will respond tomorrow. I’m off to bed.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Yeah you can't really assume combat reflexes when you have to grab 3 or more feats to get dex to damage.
Especially since dex builds aren't especially good at actually using attacks of opportunity. Reach/increasing your threatened area is usually a must-have if you want to focus on AoOs, and it's also a major weak point for dex builds. The only way I know of to get it is using a whip with the whip mastery feats, which would be even more feat intensive. Then there's still the fact that it's hard get size increases without eating a dex penalty.

I think it all starts and ends with the Spiked Chain. It made devs wary in 3.5, but they started nerfing all the wrong places.

The Spiked Chain remains in this game as a testament to overnerfing as an Exotic Weapon that is worse than its martial counterparts.


Secret Wizard wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
Yeah you can't really assume combat reflexes when you have to grab 3 or more feats to get dex to damage.
Especially since dex builds aren't especially good at actually using attacks of opportunity. Reach/increasing your threatened area is usually a must-have if you want to focus on AoOs, and it's also a major weak point for dex builds. The only way I know of to get it is using a whip with the whip mastery feats, which would be even more feat intensive. Then there's still the fact that it's hard get size increases without eating a dex penalty.

I think it all starts and ends with the Spiked Chain. It made devs wary in 3.5, but they started nerfing all the wrong places.

The Spiked Chain remains in this game as a testament to overnerfing as an Exotic Weapon that is worse than its martial counterparts.

Even with the Spiked Chain Dex-focus wasn't a dominant build in 3.5. So I'm not quite sure why people think it would somehow be more dominant in a game that does less to incentivize it.


Zark wrote:

@Artanthos and Secret Wizard: I will respond tomorrow. I’m off to bed.

Cool, I will wait for your answer.

Please do remember that there needs to be SOME benefit to these two feats, and feats with such huge upsides and downsides will always be hard to balance, but I think there is nothing to prove that Improved Weapon Finesse would be cause of disbalance.

Would it be a good feat? Yes.
Would it be better than STR? Yes, for some builds.
Would all builds want it? No. Just because Imp. Weapon Finesse would be a very choice feat doesn't mean it would unbalance the game towards it.

We can argue all day whether its better than STR builds, but the whole point is that each side has its own advantages and disadvantages, and the DEX side starts with two feats down.


How common is Mythic Weapon Finesse in Mythic campaigns like Wrath of the Righteous?


Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).

That means that only swashbucklers can use this feat on anything other than a whip or dueling sword to its full effect.

I am curious as to whether or not this was intentional.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).

That's only if you can find a one-handed slashing weapon category on the chart. I have yet to find it.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).
That's only if you can find a one-handed slashing weapon category on the chart. I have yet to find it.

Sir, I do believe you are confused.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).
That's only if you can find a one-handed slashing weapon category on the chart. I have yet to find it.

This is.. no. Just no. I know that there is something broken here and they are trying to fix it, but pedantically and bizarrely misinterpreting the rules is not the answer.

We know what one handed weapons are.

We know what slashing weapons are.

We know what a one handed slashing weapon is.

There is no, nadda, zilch, ZERO reason to need or expect "one handed slashing weapons" to show up on a chart as a separate category, or need any further explanation on what it is* (baring a few corner cases). That it isn't on the chart is not an argument, at all.


The focus of this topic is not whether slashing grace is balanced, which it undoubtedly is, but whether we would be better served with a general Improved Weapon Finesse feat.

And yes, there are qualifying weapons for Slashing Grace.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).
That's only if you can find a one-handed slashing weapon category on the chart. I have yet to find it.

This is.. no. Just no. I know that there is something broken here and they are trying to fix it, but pedantically and bizarrely misinterpreting the rules is not the answer.

We know what one handed weapons are.

We know what slashing weapons are.

We know what a one handed slashing weapon is.

There is no, nadda, zilch, ZERO reason to need or expect "one handed slashing weapons" to show up on a chart as a separate category, or need any further explanation on what it is* (baring a few corner cases). That it isn't on the chart is not an argument, at all.

There are ranged slashing weapons. You can't assume slashing = melee. Chrakrums are wielded in one hand, a range weapon, and slashing.

It seems to me that "one-handed slashing weapons" is descriptive. I see no reason for it to mean one-handed melee weapons category that are slashing and only that.


master_marshmallow wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).
That's only if you can find a one-handed slashing weapon category on the chart. I have yet to find it.
Sir, I do believe you are confused.

I see people complaining about the RAW of a feat when their interpretation is an RAI logic leap.


Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).
That's only if you can find a one-handed slashing weapon category on the chart. I have yet to find it.
Sir, I do believe you are confused.
I see people complaining about the RAW of a feat when their interpretation is an RAI logic leap.

It is not, One-Handed is a category of melee weapons.

Definition of One-Handed Weapons wrote:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Slashing weapons are weapons that deal slashing damage.

Please either re-read that part of the CRB or stop trolling, whichever comes first.


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Except you are applying a loose interpretation of the rules. You are intentionally reading the rules in a way that breaks how the rules have been handled for over a decade.

A 'one-handed' weapon always means 'one-handed' weapon. Every time the rules take about weapons when it comes to handedness, it always refers to 'light' 'one-handed' or 'two-handed' weapons. That means, every time the rules say 'one-handed' it refers to the 'one-handed' category of weapons.

If they meant light weapons, they would have said light weapons because words like 'one-handed' have specific rules connotations to it.

The only exception is if they had phrased it in a way similar to the following: "Choose one kind of slashing weapon that can be wielded in one hand (such as a longsword or kukri)..." Then that would apply to light slashing weapons as well. But they didn't phrase it that way. The method of their phrasing is done so in such a way that the rules term of 'one-handed' weapon applies to it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Agreed with Tels. I have a feeling this was put in place to prevent it from working well with Two-Weapon Fighting. They wanted Dex to damage to be primarily an einhanded feat or one where a parrying dagger is used.

I know the whole Slashing Grace was buffed last minute thing makes people think the developers didn't think about this at all, but I'm fairly certain it was more thought out than: "Hey, Slashing Grace sucks. Should we make it baseline?" "Nah, let's just put Dex to damage on it."


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xethik wrote:
I know the whole Slashing Grace was buffed last minute thing makes people think the developers didn't think about this at all, but I'm fairly certain it was more thought out than: "Hey, Slashing Grace sucks. Should we make it baseline?" "Nah, let's just put Dex to damage on it."

Logically, I agree with this, but feelings almost never follow logic. :(


master_marshmallow wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
Don't forget that even with this feat, you still use STR to calculate your attack bonus since it doesn't work with light weapons as of yet (if ever).
That's only if you can find a one-handed slashing weapon category on the chart. I have yet to find it.
Sir, I do believe you are confused.
I see people complaining about the RAW of a feat when their interpretation is an RAI logic leap.

It is not, One-Handed is a category of melee weapons.

Definition of One-Handed Weapons wrote:
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Slashing weapons are weapons that deal slashing damage.

Please either re-read that part of the CRB or stop trolling, whichever comes first.

Yet when you look at the chart it clearly says One-handed Melee Weapons.

Which the feat is not referring to.

The definition you reference: 1) doesn't separate out weapons, 2) has an implicit "melee" applied via the bolded section head title.


PRD Weapons wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling. Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength modifier if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength modifier applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half his Strength modifier if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength modifier to damage rolls made with that weapon.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

link

You are incorrect, sir, please stop and take a moment to read the book.

Contributor

Zark wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Slashing Grace works with the Whip and the Aldori Dueling Sword. That's not completely useless...

Eh, Aldori Dueling Sword is from a spalt book (and not even a light weapon, so no TWF)

You could dip one level into Swashbuckler for Swashbuckler's Finesse, grab Slashing Grace, and use the feat with the Sawtooth Saber if you want to use TWF. The Sawtooth Saber is a one-handed slashing weapon that is treated as a light weapon for the purposes of Two-Weapon Fighting only.

Better still, the Sawtooth Saber got reprinted in Ultimate Equipment, so its technically part of the Core Rules.


I wonder just how many cookie cutter Inspired Blade 1/Kensai Magus 19 builds we are going to see in the future.

In fact, I think we can feasibly see a lot of 1 level dips into swashbuckler just to turn this feat online and let you use DEX on nonstandard finessable weapons.

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