I have a new player in my first campaign as a GM, a homebrew that's been running for about fifteen sessions. The rest of the party's versatile and interesting, but my new player "Bob" went with a specialized build that's giving me trouble.
At 9th level with one mythic tier, through some extreme min/maxing (audited as legit), Bob does an 8d6+54 greatsword vital strike at +19, with a crit range of 17-20 doing 16d6 + 108 (again, this is due to mythic). But despite being the party tank, he has fewer than 100 hit points and a so-so AC, which leaves me in a bind. Any enemies capable of surviving the damage of Bob plus other party members for more than two rounds can usually retaliate with enough damage to flat-out kill Bob in return. (Bob has Die Hard, so he's on his feet swinging till death.) Bob hits like he's level 15, but takes punches like he's level 7; as he put it, he could kill a duplicate of himself in one hit without even needing a critical.
I realize I can throw in some super-specialized enemies he can't hit, complicated environments, etc. (this is what I did for his first session). But in the long-term, is there a sensible way to arrange good fights for a party who can dish out massive damage but can't take it? Or should I just ask Bob to scrap this guy and design a more balanced PC? We're all good friends, so there won't be hard feelings around the table no matter the outcome.
I might be wrong, but I don't believe additional dice are ever multiplied on a successful critical hit.
Lots of lower CR monsters and a few ranged enemies might help everyone have fun.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Specialization breeds weakness. He made choices. I am not suggesting you go swinging for his jugular every encounter every time. But 9 levels is a long time for a gaping weakness not to have come calling. Also if any enemies see that he is that incredible then he is a target. Smart enemies fight smart especially when they want to live. Sometimes it happens.
I might be wrong, but I don't believe additional dice are ever multiplied on a successful critical hit.
Thanks, you're right. This is my mistake in writing here, not Bob's (whose sheet has been audited by a much more knowledgeable player than I). And thank you both for the suggestions as well.
I would say; don't shy away from hurting him bad. Retraining, and supplimentary feats are present, so if he's stifling what you can use...
Anyway think of it this way; he's obviously highly optimized. Stick to Encounters with a CR of Average Party lvl, and then up to +3 that value. If he's dropping, tell him he's falling behind, and failing to cover his weaknesses. Which, in the long run will kill him alot faster then not killing enemies fast enough.
Mythic Vital Strike is insanely powerful as it does allow you to add modifiers on top of the extra dice (so when you Vital Strike you are essentially doing two full weapon attacks); that's hardly extreme min-maxing so much as literally taking a single Mythic Feat. The Vital Strike damage does not multiple on a crit though as others have said, so if he only has Vital Strike (not improved) on a crit you're essentially looking at three weapon strikes in one instead of two.
I don't know the mythic rules all that well, please break the damage down because it seems high even for a raging greatsword type character.
I don't have the full character sheet in front of me, unfortunately. The short version is that he's a player-created race from ARG rules, and that's the book I probably shouldn't have let him open.
The damage comes from power attack, a keen greatsword +2, an incredibly high strength, Mythic Vital Strike, and he's Large, but spends most combats Huge through his spell-like ability and potions. (The number quoted here is for the Huge version of his character, though the Large version still does incredible damage.)
Perhaps a re-audit is called for, but the main point I'm concerned about is the way he unbalances the damage the party can dish out versus what they can take. I wouldn't mind his damage output if he had a constitution to match.
Having more fights of lots of little guys is a good idea, I think, as well as including more ranged combat.
Everything you said is pretty much standard and not minmaxed so much as not intentionally gimping yourself... except for letting him homebrew his own race. That was just asking for trouble. Talk to him and give him a pre-made race and that's the best you can do unless you want to go all out and ban Mythic Vital Strike, i.e. "the one true fighting style if you have access to mythic."
Mythic Vital Strike really is the best thing a melee guy (or an archer who actually wants to "skirmish") can have. It negates all the difficulties faced by melee people as you get to full attack with a single standard action. And DR applies once. And once he gets the Mythic Initiative ability he will be able to do it twice per round.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can add mythic pugwampis to every encounter.
...please don't hit me.
Everything you said is pretty much standard and not minmaxed so much as not intentionally gimping yourself... except for letting him homebrew his own race. That was just asking for trouble.
Yup, definitely a rookie mistake. The size and strength bonuses he got there are what sent this out of control.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everything you said is pretty much standard and not minmaxed so much as not intentionally gimping yourself... except for letting him homebrew his own race. That was just asking for trouble.Yup, definitely a rookie mistake. The size and strength bonuses he got there are what sent this out of control.
Oh no, Mythic Vital Strike sent this out of control and will continue to spiral it into the ground. The custom race was just delicious icing I think :p
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Our group is experiencing a similar issue at the moment. A relatively inexperienced GM has allowed greater than WBL treasure (through added side treks) and added a mythic level in an AP not designed to cope with them.
The characters are not min/maxed but are reasonably well crafted and have effectively all become glass cannons with damage outputs that could kill their clones in one round. My character is probably the heaviest hitter with a fauchard (trip build), mythic power attack, crit range of 15+ dealing over 100 damage on successful crit.
I'll give you the same advice I gave him - variety, numbers and BBEGs that are smart and prepared.
As some of the other posters have commented, if you put your party up against numerous foes then the ability to one shot them becomes less of an issue.
A variety of foes with various abilities and defenses can challenge heavy hitters in all sorts of ways. Try to build encounters with depth and foes that don't simply charge the big guy with the sword.
BBEGs are so for a reason. They are smarter and more prepared than the average opponent, even if they haven't encountered the PCs before. They should have ways of reducing or avoiding damage (stone skin, blur, mirror image, terrain advantage, nasty traps and surprises etc). If they are recurring or know of the PCs (by reputation or scrying) they should be specifically prepared for fighting them.
Final thought - want to make a martial cry? Disarm or Sunder will ruin their day. Any semi- intelligent opponent will realize the big sharp thing being swung at them is the cause of all their pain. This should be within the reasoning capabilities of almost all opponents.
Hope this helps
Tark
Hope this helps
Thanks Tark (and everybody), this is a huge help.
... But despite being the party tank...
Well, he's not the party tank.
In the parlance of modern gaming, he's a striker.
Once enemies see him hit, they just kill him. Archers would be good.
It just doesn't do anyone a favor to coddle a "glass cannon"; kill him, and he can reroll a more versatile, balanced character.
I had a player who made an ranged inquisitor - a definite damage engine - but he'd min-maxed and decided that since he was ranged, he didn't need constitution; he didn't actually dump it, but he assigned it a value of 10, and took the skill point on level-ups, and never bothered with toughness or other defenses. So his hit points were about as low as an inquisitor of his level could be.
The came a wraith encounter, and they're popping out of the walls in a tight space, and he can't distance himself - boom, two hits, -9 con. He's running on 1 con and single-digit hit points.
Later, out of terror of dying, he held back while the rest of the party - all controllers and a couple of rogues - went on, damage-lite. They hit an encounter with a succubus and her minions: rogues dominated, controllers unable to do damage. They languished, desperately calling to him because they needed damage (they had a telepathic bond), but it was too late - he arrived just in time to be easily one-shot, and everyone died: TPK.
He rerolled with a 14 con - lesson learned!
Glass cannons are not tanks. Glass cannons need to be coddled by the rest of the party to allow them to get their damage in.
Don't just outright try to kill him, but try to make it hard for him in a way that everyone else in the party contributes to him doing his job.
|
Hey, he's level 9. If he gets killed, Raise Dead is available. It's not out of bounds to kill him if normal opponents get the chance. That's not the end of the world.
If he's in a fight with some normal opponents, they see how deadly he is, it makes sense to focus fire on him. Just like you'd normally try to take out the scary wizard, this time you focus on the fragile death machine.
I'm not saying you should go out of your way to kill him; just don't hold back if that's the directions things are heading. If he's really this fragile, you won't have to do anything extra.
After he's been killed once or twice, it may be time to talk about retraining a bit. Obviously he's made some mistakes in his build. Going back and straightening that out isn't trivial; that's a lot of retraining. Also, admit that you probably shouldn't have allowed that race; it's quite easy to create something that Should Not Be with ARG. You could propose a deal: if he gets raised with Reincarnate, he loses the weird race, but gets to choose his next (more normal) race, and do some rebuilding to fix his defences.
Just arrange some sensible encounters, something he can't say is min-maxed to take him out, and let him find out.
A band of bandits with archery is a pretty typical encounter. Bugbears from high ground with javelins also isn't out of line.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly? Talk to the player about the issue as you see it.
Inform he that you are not going to pull punches, and if that means the character is killed...so be it.
At the same time you're not outright trying to kill him, but with the strengths and weaknesses he has, it would be difficult not to. Assuming anything can actually get a shot on him.
This is my main problem with mythic, is that it's just more extreme rocket tag. If anyone lays a hand on anyone else, they're pretty much dead.
As a GM I don't care what players bring to the table. It shouldn't have any influence how you run the game, IMO. If players have their PCs fail during an adventure it should be because of their choices NOT because of the GMs.
EDIT: I may be wrong but reading between the lines it looks like some rules have been used by the players before the GM has become fully familiar with them. I only allow books, etc. after I have read and fully understand what I am letting into the game.
And I would never allow a player to make a race from the ARG unless under exceptional circumstances.
If he dies u could always reincarnate him into a different race....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Inform he that you are not going to pull punches, and if that means the character is killed...so be it.
Yeah, he and I had that conversation after the last session. He's a great guy and understands. (And rocket tag is the perfect analogy for what he's brought to my game.)
For our next session I'm going to take a mix of these approaches, including more small stuff, ranged stuff, weird stuff, etc. but also some monsters that can genuinely stand up to (and return) his damage. When he inevitably dies in the next few sessions, there is a druid in the party who can cast reincarnation--bringing him back as a saner race of his choosing is a great idea. That even works well for his personal subplot, since there's a human woman that he loves but can't physically be together with (due to being a large rock creature).
Thanks again to everybody for the suggestions so far! This is my first time starting a thread here and it's been a huge help.
Let word of his awesome swordiness get out. Have some bard write a tale of his exploits that becomes popular. Let it become known that he's the most dangerous guy around. Let someone put a bounty on his head.
Now everyone looking to make a name for themselves or make a buck is gunning for him.
I'm sure he'll beat a few of them, but when the BBEG's 12th level Ranger hired assassin shows up pre buffed with Fly, Protection From Arrows and Haste and starts raining arrows down on him, he's pretty much screwed.
When he dies his legend can live on.
|
First to the OP. Most was your fault adding mythic and allowing him to build a race.
Secondly you mentioned he was a "tank" for the group. Good Pathfinder players know that damage is the currency of combat and typically dont do the super high ac and hit point pool. They will build something that puts people in the dirt. Without a real aggro mechanic he has to seem to be a threat to be targeted. Killing things in a swing seems to have gotten your attention or you would not be complaining.
I play a glass cannon in PFS. A halfling mounted ranger on a giant gecko. I have been 1 shorting everything. Damage train started at level 3 with 3d6+36. On a ride by attack spirited charge from ceilings and walls. Here is how a GM countered me last session.
First our group is walking through a forest path. The fighter was out front followed by the bard. My halfling chilling behind the bard with the cleric in back. Group failed a DC 32 perception check. This 4 armed fiendish pencilled his head out a bush 10 feet from my halfling. (Killing my charge range) as he popped up he threw 4 smite good throwing axes right at my halfling. (Ignoring the big fighter and the squishy bard) he hit with 3 axes 1 was a critical. (Yay flat-footed). I was at 13 health as the fight started with him unchargable and focused on just me.
Another way they threw a suprise grapple on my halfling.
A way you can do it is take his damage and ×3 it. Take the answer and make it effective healthof things. Can kill everything in 1 hit if they have triple HP over your damage.
First to the OP. Most was your fault adding mythic and allowing him to build a race.
Yup. I think I've already owned up to that several times in this thread but happy to own it again. It's a situation I created through a rookie mistake, and I'm not looking to lay blame on my players (who are great) but simply find a solution for moving forward.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Saw Bob for lunch and proposed the reincarnation idea for when his character inevitably dies of Glass Cannon Syndrome. He's totally up for it, so problem solved--thanks, Interwebz!
Blur, Displacement, Invisibility, readied actions to trip or disarm and Mirror Images would all slow down the onslaught. Also Pit spells could inconvenience his somewhat!
and I'd suggest you make those rolls behind the screen!
|
Specialization breeds weakness. He made choices. I am not suggesting you go swinging for his jugular every encounter every time. But 9 levels is a long time for a gaping weakness not to have come calling. Also if any enemies see that he is that incredible then he is a target. Smart enemies fight smart especially when they want to live. Sometimes it happens.
This was my thought as well. The rest of your players (it sounds like) made well-balanced characters. Bob made a character who sacrificed his defense for greater offense. If you protect Bob from the consequences of that choice by putting on the kiddie gloves, you're actually doing a disservice to the other players who invested their resources in a more balanced fashion. If Bob goes up swinging hard and doesn't drop the bad guy, the bad guy should be hitting back with his full strength. If Bob dies, that's the natural result of the choices he made in character creation, and the risk he chose to assume.
|
|
But despite being the party tank, he has fewer than 100 hit points and a so-so AC, which leaves me in a bind. Any enemies capable of surviving the damage of Bob plus other party members for more than two rounds can usually retaliate with enough damage to flat-out kill Bob in return. (Bob has Die Hard, so he's on his feet swinging till death.) Bob hits like he's level 15, but takes punches like he's level 7; as he put it, he could kill a duplicate of himself in one hit without even needing a critical.
He's min-maxed a character that deals insane damage, with minimal defense, that stays on it's feet until the point of death?
Don't go out of your way to kill him, but if he dies, it is an inherent design flaw in the character. Avoiding hitting him for fear of character death would be removing the min from his min/max. If anything, intelligent opponents should focus-fire when one opponent is a significantly larger threat than the others.
Treat him like any other character if he dies then he dies don't sweat it none
Our Wrath of the Rightous game has a heavy hitter with a similar build.
The bane of his existence is anything with Miss Chance or Mirror Image. Flight is also a problem.
Try flying enemies with alternate defense abilities.
Very minor thing but how does he get the 8d6 base weapon damage?
Being large and able to turn huge, i can only bring it up to 6d6 (4d6 huge greatsword, add lead blades and it becomes 6d6).
Very minor thing but how does he get the 8d6 base weapon damage?
Being large and able to turn huge, i can only bring it up to 6d6 (4d6 huge greatsword, add lead blades and it becomes 6d6).
It's not his base damage, it's vital strike (4d6 huge + 4d6 vital strike).
here are some resources you can use
Archers, they can deal damage before he shows up, his MVS doesn't apply on a charge, even if it does multiply his static bonuses and VS dice on a critical due to being mythic. so depending on his build, he may get to move at his speed and attack, or double move, which leaves him vulnerable to a round of arrows. it isn't as effective as pounce, due to being crushed by mirror images or the original pre errata version crane wing
Miss Chances, Mirror Images, and original pre errata crane wing all negate attacks, miss chances have a percentile roll, mirror images negate a swing for each image, and pre errata crane wing was an immediate action automatic deflection once per round.
Ranged Spellcasters, target a lower series of defenses, if his armor class is that undersized. his saves are probably even worse. i could guess the trouble character must be a fighter. fighters are one trick ponies whose only trick is to deal excessive amounts of damage against a static and unmoving target with their signature weapon by utilizing their signature combat style. this guy chose a mythic exclusive style that fakes a gimped pounce, but, fighters are generally poor at any defense that isn't armor class, and only have a decent armor class if they augment it to the exclusion of damage potential. thing is, past level 7, nobody's armor class matters because level appropriate foes hit even the turtliest PC on a 2 or better, even after power attack, but this fighter probably has poor saving throws too. if he does, drop fireballs, pits, and the like. you needn't mind control him to prove a point, but having to climb a pit will take him out for a few rounds
reach weapons, bigger creatures with polearms can really exploit the biggest weakness of the greatsword, it's lacking of the reach property. the reach property is powerful on creatures designed to melee, because it doubles your melee range, and reduces the number of steps required to engage your enemy by an amount of squares equal to your natural reach. it also increases your flanking range. combat reflexes helps for the fun of it.
Traps; it doesn't have to be super powerful arcane damage traps, but having the fighter fall through a pit, step on a pressure plate, or fail to catch himself due to a poor reflex save will show him the downsides of his lacking defenses.
Cast dominate on "Bob"'s character. Sit back, and enjoy the fun.
Harpies. They fly.
Magic Jar is a fun spell to cast and use.
Kobold archers who are up somewhere high are happy, because it's hard to climb up to get them.
Black puddings like swords because they are yummy.
Invisible stalkers are invisible.
Everyone thinks rogues are a weak class until they get sneak attacked.
|
I think it’s important that you mitigate his influence without it feeling like you’re punishing him. You mentioned that this guy is your friend and open to making changes and/or rebuilding the character. If it’s that much of a problem I suggest you go that route over some sort of elaborate plan to kill and/or cripple his character. In an arms race the DM always wins. Why push things that direction when you can keep things fun with a little honest communication.
When I’ve been in similar situations in the past as a DM I haven’t been so lucky.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A halfling mounted ranger on a giant gecko. I have been 1 shorting everything.
Ha!