I am the GM. Got a player that wants to replace a deceased PC with a Duergar Psion.
Haven’t played much with Duergar. Other than the listed dwarf hatred, anything else I should be aware of. Particular problems with other races or cultures? Where on Golarion should they be from? Any secret organization hunting them like the drow?
He will probably want to still be a good character, so will the normal evil duergar be trying to capture and return him like the drow?
Anyone in particular that they get along or typically have alliances with?
Not against it or trying to punish the player, I'm just trying to figure out what I need to add to the campaign to help this PC fit in as a part of the world.
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Ugh, same drizzt, different flavor.
Well, yeah. He's a bit obsessed with the Drizzt stories. About half of his characters are Drow or Half-Drow and the son/cousin/nephew of Drizzt that are trying to follow in his footsteps.
Not terribly original in concept. But oddly enough the build that goes with his personality concept is usually fairly unique. I've never seen him try and do a twin scimitar ranger anyway.
This is actually kinda stepping out of the normal for him.
I normally am all about "play what you like", but when your character is a blatant ripoff of another down to personality and everything...just...ugh. Have SOME kind of originality, please.
Okay, rant over.
Um...
All I can think of is since he's a dark dwarf playing a ripoff of a dark elf that has a normal dwarf best friend, give him a normal elf best friend. Maybe a...hm, halfling love interest, and a useless rogue-like, fat human companion that loves to fish and carve scrimshaw, since we're swapping stuff up?
Honestly, though, the Duergar don't seem to be nearly as fleshed out as their elven compatriots, the drow. They are lawful evil, so they tend to be more organized, less evil-for-evils-sake than the drow, and more along the lines of any-means-necessary-for-the-betterment-of-the-community. The only reason they'd bother hunting down an escaped or self-exiled duergar is if the benefit to doing so outweighed the work involved to get him.
I normally am all about "play what you like", but when your character is a blatant ripoff of another down to personality and everything...just...ugh. Have SOME kind of originality, please. ...
Well he's usually not that bad. He usually/always wants them related to Drizzt, but he doesn't really try to duplicate the Drizzt personality. It is more his PC has a case of hero worship for Drizzt. He will sometimes think about what Drizzt would do. But with his build and level it is usually something that he can't do. So he has to do something else that isn't what he wanted to do.
Well that and he's often trying to convince terrified mundanes that not all drow are horrific. Just almost all of them, and the ones in power, and the female clerics, and the nobles, and any that have a whole team of drow, and ...
That conversation was actually kinda amusing.
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Do the Duergar send out slaving raids to the surface that would have scared everyone. I would assume they are at war with the dwarf cities in particular. Anyone else?
But your right I haven't seen them mentioned very often. I was hoping some of the books I don't have had a few more details.
Do you have the Monster Codex? They give a little insight on the Duergar race. A friend of mine started with a Duegar rogue in our Second Darkness game but for some reason didn't like the character and asked the DM if he could write him out after the first session. I really can't offer too much advice on them since I've never been too interested in them as a PC race and haven't really researched them in depth.
Do you have the Monster Codex? ...
I don't, but I'll see if any of the others do.
If i had mine handy I'd give you the highlights but I'm at work on my lunch at the moment.
Yeah, pretty much Golarion.
Though I added a series of islands for the Golden Spear trilogy of modules. And depending upon what the party decides to do next, I am considering a natural catastrophe to one of the smaller countries.
So Golarion, but I am not locked into RAW cannon or anything if people have some exceptional ideas or there is some good source material.
I'm just drawing a blank on this one.
I'm not in any exceptional rush. I've probably got a good month before they finish the current module. And it is pretty much decided.
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I have the Monster Codex. They have a lot of property laws regarding slaves: procedures of capture, cataloguing, and making sure dwarven prisoners are killed, not enslaved. They've developed weapons to assist in capturing others, and more.
It's pretty much accurate to say they aren't as well-developed as drow. You can only do the "Like X core race, but Always Evil!" so often before running into a wall.
That said, the Duergar seem a lot more casual about what they do, much less impassioned and inflamed.
Ok, so it sounds like everyone would expect him to be lawful evil, capturing slaves, and killing dwarves. (Not sure how the 2 players are going to explain a dwarf and a duergar in the same party, but I will leave that up to them.)
So Andoran freedom fighters may hunt him based on the slaving assumption. People will generally be frightened of him. Especially as a psion with mental powers seems kinda enslaving anyway. Cheliaxians may try to hire him. Any authorities will probably try to keep a close watch on him to make sure he doesn't take any of their people as slaves. Dwarves are likely to attack him on sight.
That will probably get me started. If any of you have any other good ideas, let me know.
Historically, in older editions, duergar were quite hard to identify. Dwarves could do so automatically, but humans, elves, etc would tend to think that they were merely grumpier and greyer dwarves.
So you'd get dwarves trying to kill them, pretty much on sight, and everyone else going 'what's going on?'
And a simple mundane or magical disguise would solve this problem.
WAY HAY HO! And screw with his background,
WAY HAY HO! And screw with his background,
...early in the mor-ning...
Um..he does know Drizzt not only doesn't exist in Golarion, but there is no canon comparison at all, right?
I gotta agree with going with nobody but dwarves can tell the difference. Maybe if everyone keeps saying "what do you mean, I'm not like the others of my kind, I'm nice? I meet nice dwarves all the time," he might think a wee bit more outside the box.
Yes, same player as the half-drow witch.
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Hmm... From the drawings I always assumed they were pretty obviously different. I'll have to think about that some.
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I guess I could see them not wanting to come to the surface, but I thought they were raiding the surface for slaves. Could have sworn I read that somewhere.
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And to be honest, I think Duergar should be set as rarely raiding the surface for slaves, because their whole thing is being more reclusive and underground and surface hating than regular dwarves.Um..he does know Drizzt not only doesn't exist in Golarion, but there is no canon comparison at all, right?
I gotta agree with going with nobody but dwarves can tell the difference. Maybe if everyone keeps saying "what do you mean, I'm not like the others of my kind, I'm nice? I meet nice dwarves all the time," he might think a wee bit more outside the box.
I know and a good drow relative of Drizzt just doesn't make sense with Golarion drow. But he is so obsessed with the Drizzt novels he doesn't even hear you when you try to explain why it doesn't work. I don't have the heart to crush his world like that, so I let him do it.
For other sources, there is a short article called "The Ecology of the Duergar" in Dragon Magazine #325.
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Duergar are just as easily LN, as well as LE.
Their society focuses on the idea that life, is endless toil.
They have almost nothing that would be considered "art", and all their produced wares favor function, over form.
They're emos without the poetry!
Oh, lawrd, he could be the one that ran away to pursue his arts! Hahaha! I mean, he's got a history of drizzt clones, painting his eyes black and reading bad poetry is just one step away!
EDIT - Apologies to your friend. I'm wrong to judge him not knowing him and all...but seriously, you gotta admit, it's pretty funny...
EDIT 2 - I'm so sorry. I'm just being a jerk. I'm gonna stop adding stuff that isn't really contributing now.
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This societal focus on toil, is from their complete unquestioning devotion to the god Droskar, who saved them from the brink of extinction.
Their cities are remarkably free of extreme poverty and signs of dissatisfaction or rebellion. While this may be impressive at first, it is soon clear that a simple, hard truth lies behind it: Duergar do not know the meaning of rest and serve their god by endlessly perfecting everything around them, be it structures, weapons, or magic. The only ones who work harder than the Duergar are the countless slaves they keep.
Duergar actually control large portions of the Darklands, and work tirelessly to maintain their borders.
Early in life, Duergar learn that many emotions only serve to get in the way of work. They learn to rid themselves of such needless things. Thus, Duergar have no understandings of humor, love, or empathy.
Only emotions that can be forged into a tool, are worth knowing.
Even if you are playing on Golarion, it is entirely up to you how people respond to his presence.
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Wow.
That is an obvisously biased opinion, that I disagree with.
Things might not work with your group, and/or your playstyle, but don't suggest anyone using non-core races are somehow badwrongfun.
Some things need careful consideration, but something like a Duergar, shouldn't be a problem.
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DO NOT ALOW MONSTER RACES. ...
Uhmm... Yeah... No... In fact... HELL NO!
One of my favorite characters of all time was Thrikreen druid that couldn't talk to hardly anyone. Anytime he was found in true form he was almost always attacked or run out of town. Or the group had to bring me into town in chains and pretend I was a captive. I had a blast with it.
I would never deny that kind of fun to my group.
I would try to figure out a way to allow almost anything the players want.
I just need to figure out how to judge the nasty side effects of whatever they pick and make sure they are not going to overshadow everyone else at the table.
I'd suggest this:
Duergar and Drow look like their cousins. And identifying a monster type requires knowledge Local. You could say that only specific people of a Vs the Drow/Duergar heritage (Like Dwarves and Elves or warriors who have battled them) recognize his nature, but the rest of society goes: "That dwarf is really dark and dusky. I wonder if he's sick."
As for Duergar it's self; if the player opposes his race's innate drudgery, and drone mentality, you could argue he'd be primarily focused on achieving his own goals, and not being a 'messiah of his race'. This duergar is most likely to be a pirate for example, rather then a saint.
I'd go with; Dwarves begin Hostile, requring a tense moments of attempted diplomacy, bluffing, or intimidation, while Elves begin as Unfriendly, and everyone else is Indifferent. Once his race's reputation gets out, they become Unfriendly too, IF their society doesn't actually value that (Cheliax)
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DO NOT ALOW MONSTER RACES.
I had a Nagaji and Drow in mine, both are now gone, thank the gods. Monsters are meant to be attacked on sight by the peasants, and when they are not, it is hard to write up why.
Second, they have different, lest compatible languages, splitting the party up. Then information must be relayed across the table multiple times increasing the chance of the game breaking down in idle chatter and jokes.
Monsters are also rare in media like movies and games. So the PCs have little to go on, and you get either weird role play, behaviour that contradicts that race or a character that has to be led and pushed by the party.
It's exhausting, and the inter-party dynamics distract from the story and the quests to the point where players may not know what the F is going on.
Seriously, don't allow it. If you do? Don't give them a free pass in town. If they fail to use disguise self, or say something odd, DONT HOLD BACK, DESTROY THEM IF IT MAKES SENSE.
Just to point out, the Rival Guide has an adventuring group lead by a CE Gnoll Barbarian. While townsfolk are somewhat wary of her, she still has no problem going into town openly and conducting her business as long as she keeps the RAGEMURDERDEATH confined to the wilderness (except with brothels. They charge extra as she's know to be...rough on her purchases). There's also at least one city famous for it's Troll prophets (they read their own guts, you see). Golarion is pretty cosmopolitan.
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DO NOT ALOW MONSTER RACES. ...Uhmm... Yeah... No... In fact... HELL NO!
One of my favorite characters of all time was Thrikreen druid that couldn't talk to hardly anyone. Anytime he was found in true form he was almost always attacked or run out of town. Or the group had to bring me into town in chains and pretend I was a captive. I had a blast with it.
I would never deny that kind of fun to my group.
I would try to figure out a way to allow almost anything the players want.
I just need to figure out how to judge the nasty side effects of whatever they pick and make sure they are not going to overshadow everyone else at the table.
Now I want to try that with a tiefling or something similar.
Again, if you make nobody but dwarves able to tell the difference, it simplifies things, and cuts out the angsty separatist cliche, cause nobody cares that you're a good duergar when all dwarves are the same to non dwarves. This frees you up as GM to tell a different bloody story than the first six books of Salvatore's series over and over again.
Language barrier the biggest hang up?
DM gives everyone Common for free.
Problem solved.
In that particular example, a Thrikreen doesn't have the correct mouth parts to speak common intelligibly. It could however, understand common. Eventually was able to afford a magic item that gave him tongues so others could understand him.
Ok, here’s what I think I will start with for the Druegar PC.
Druegar almost never come to the surface on their slaving raids. So most people will not know what he is. They will see a dwarf and maybe think he is sick because his skin is gray. (Some people still may not want him around to keep whatever he has away from them.) Unless someone has some particular knowledge of the deeps it will require a Knowledge Local DC=20 so hear rumors about them. It will be a DC=25 check to really know anything and the reasons to be scared. Still likely to give him problems with the educated authorities though.
Anyone that makes the 25 check will start at least unfriendly and quite likely hostile.
Dwarves will definitely know what he is and be hostile on sight. Probably attack at the first opportunity. (Orcs are probably enough underground to give them a bonus on the check. Do you think gnomes should also get a bonus since they are so friendly with dwarves?)
The players of the Druegar and the Dwarf will have to figure out their own in-character reason they are not killing each other.
Druegar will not be hunting for him. But should they ever encounter him, they will try to take him captive to take back and torture to death as a sacrifice for betraying the dark god of toil.
Seem reasonable?
Sounds good.
To be fair, Orcs probably don't CARE about the difference between a dwarf and a duergar, "a stunty is a stunty and we'z gonna crush 'im! waaaaaugh!"
Well, I was figuring that since the Duergar are big on taking slaves and won't come to the surface, orcs almost have to be one of the races that they are taking slaves from.
Outside of some Dwarves, most surface races won't really tell the difference between a Duergar, and other Dwarves.
Agreed, that was the first paragraph.
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Duergar are just as easily LN, as well as LE.
Their society focuses on the idea that life, is endless toil.
They have almost nothing that would be considered "art", and all their produced wares favor function, over form.
They're generally evil because they're big on enforcing their vision of toil on other races involuntarily through slavery. That and their genocidal approach to dealing with dwarves.
LN duergar are as rare as good drow.
I don't see that.
If you said LG Duergar, I would agree with you.
No reason there isn't many Duergar, just going day by day, focused on work, not feeling any real desire to go out of their way to do something one would consider evil.
LN duregar are as rare as good drow.
That hasn't been my impression. I don't know much about Golarion's deurgar, but in Faerûn non-evil duergar are reasonably common. The 3.5 Underdark supplement has the following to say on the alignment of duergar:
Most gray dwarves are evil, placing little value on the lives and property of others. They are consumed by envy of anyone better off than themselves, and they display not a trace of pity for those who are not as fortunate. A fair number of duergar, wanting nothing more than to be left alone, lean toward hardhearted neutrality, but few ever become truly good.
Later in the same supplement, the descriptions of the duergar cities of Drik Hargunen and Gracklstugh and the town of Fraaszummdin include several non-evil duergar NPC's. Of the nine listed NPC for these locations, two of them are LN, and one is N.
Have him be the target of Drow slavers or an escaped drow slave or soemthing to that effect.
I might suggest escaped drow slave to him. But I wouldn't try to tell him what his background should be.