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It's a snowjob.
Martials hit things. Casters cast.
Those are two very, very different things that work very, very differently and have very, very different results. They can be no more perfectly balanced than can a bowl of jello and a song lyric. Totally different concepts.
So it's a load of hooey, all these threads. Martials can be underwhelming not because they need more numbers or feats or whatever... they can be underwhelming because THEY'RE NOT CASTERS. That's it. That's all it's ever been about.
Hitting things will never be as sexy as dominate monster except to people who find hitting things more sexy than mind-controlling things.
Nobody needs a boost, nobody needs a nerf (except within the different roles perhaps).
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I think most people who feel the need to fix martials agree with you, Wind Chime. Martials lack narrative power, fighters and rogues have cripplingly bad defenses, maneuvers are weak and only become more so the further into the game you go... A Fighter's ability to whack things with a stick is not in the question, its her ability to do anything else.
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So it's a load of hooey, all these threads. Martials can be underwhelming not because they need more numbers or feats or whatever... they can be underwhelming because THEY'RE NOT CASTERS. That's it. That's all it's ever been about.
Funny. Martials have no problem competing with Casters in 4e.
Martials are underwhelming because there's a preconceived notion that spells need to be awesome.
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So it's a load of hooey, all these threads. Martials can be underwhelming not because they need more numbers or feats or whatever... they can be underwhelming because THEY'RE NOT CASTERS. That's it. That's all it's ever been about.
Funny. Martials have no problem competing with Casters in 4e.
Sure if you dont mind blanket AEDU.
Martials are underwhelming because there's a preconceived notion that spells need to be awesome.
Agreed and I think casters could do with some restraits as well. 5E seems to be heading in that direction.
So it's a load of hooey, all these threads. Martials can be underwhelming not because they need more numbers or feats or whatever... they can be underwhelming because THEY'RE NOT CASTERS. That's it. That's all it's ever been about.Funny. Martials have no problem competing with Casters in 4e.
Martials are underwhelming because there's a preconceived notion that spells need to be awesome.
How is caster-martial (dis)parity in 4e relevant to caster-martial disparity in PF? They're not the same system... :s
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Funny. Martials have no problem competing with Casters in 4e.
Sorry, but you've got a big typo there. What you meant to say is "casters have no problem competing with casters in 4e". That, or "martials have no problem competing with martials in 4e". Because in 4e the two are basically identical. They're NOT different. Which is my point.
I absolutely don't intend an edition war here, but 4e removed everything that made casters work differently. Spells and hammers all "do X damage and apply Y condition and move target Z squares", basically. Which is absolutely, positively fine. But you could just as easily file off the labels on two classes and you've got the same thing.
Martials are underwhelming because there's a preconceived notion that spells need to be awesome.
Right. Yes. Just like the preconceived notion that hitting things in the face should DO THAT.
There is a place for uniformity. Granted. This is a game that has interesting variety though. A new player who isn't familiar with game mechanics has an easy place to start: martials. An older, jaded player who's done all the exotic fighty-builds has a place to experiment: caster builds.
And again, the beauty of the party is that the two types of characters can - and should - work together, to make things more fun for everyone. Awesome spells cast on fighter types mean the fighter gets to do the awesome. That's... awesome!
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Martials and casters can be disparate without martials being desprate.
Because in 4e the two are basically identical. They're NOT different. Which is my point.
I absolutely don't intend an edition war here, but 4e removed everything that made casters work differently. Spells and hammers all "do X damage and apply Y condition and move target Z squares", basically.
I question how much 4e you actually played. You realize there were more than just evocation caster classes right?
Right. Yes. Just like the preconceived notion that hitting things in the face should DO THAT.
Spells shouldn't be automatically so awesome they overshadow everything around them. That is what Paizo has constructed.
Awesome spells cast on fighter types mean the fighter gets to do the awesome. That's... awesome!
I had a Wizard once. You know what spell he opened up with just about every combat because it was so awesome that not casting it was basically stupid?
Haste.
Eventually, it became a running gag in my group that my character would just say "Haste" and that was what he did.
Magic became so boring in my group because X Awesome spell was just too good not to cast that it became funny for us to parody it.
Sometimes martials can hit someone so hard they get cursed. I'd be for more stuff like this with fewer hoops.
Wolf Savage is a sexy feat... Too bad the ones before it are downright awful. I managed to convince my GM to modify Wolf Style and Wolf Trip into the Mantis Style for Punishing Kick.
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Problems are not on the martial. It's the spell caster can cast, powerful spells like Prismatic Spray only takes a standard action. It should take at least an full action to cast. and more powerful spell should require more casters with the same spell prepared or known and cast together at the same time to use those spells. But no, pathfinder spell is so "I kill you in one hit" and the casters like "I got this, this and that magic items so I'm tanking and can see through stealth." Very stupid, really. Stealth is a mechanic made to be the most effective way to fight against caster, but they make it so easy to see through invisibility with spells when caster can use spells to be invisible. It could have still work if there are magical items that aid stealth so even magical can't see through it, but they didn't.
So in that first paragraph, you say that martials are nowhere near as powerful as caster and never will be. But in the second you say nothing needs nerfing or buffing, so everything must be perfectly fine... Guess what, if one class can completely obsolete other classes, something is wrong and nerfs or buffs are ABSOLUTELY needed.
I'm afraid that's not true; I never said that. I repeatedly and emphatically pointed out they're different.
Martials absolutely need a boost, and they got a good start at the end of 3.5 with Tome of Battle. But nooooooooo, that book was horribly broken. Full casters need to be cut off at the knees or martials brought up to where the casters are.
First up... I and my groups are a big fan of ToB. Second, we're fans of PoW. Why? Because they're fun. Not "more powerful" or "up to caster levels".
That said, what I'm trying to express is that I don't measure the two types of classes against each other. There isn't a "9 out of 10 and 3 out of 10". Sure, you can compare a monk to a barbarian, but comparing a rogue to a sorcerer is kind of... pointless in my mind.
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It's a snowjob.
Martials hit things. Casters cast.
Those are two very, very different things that work very, very differently and have very, very different results. They can be no more perfectly balanced than can a bowl of jello and a song lyric. Totally different concepts.
Exaggerate much? It's not really that extreme. It's more like comparing a one course meal with a banquet.
Martials and casters play in the same games, fight the same monsters, participate in the same playtests, often are played at different times by the same players. In addition, they both are balanced not just against each other, but against monsters and campaign narratives. Useful points of comparison can be made. Subtle differences can't and don't need to be eradicated, but blatant disparities can be identified and addressed.
Nobody needs a boost, nobody needs a nerf (except within the different roles perhaps).
Your stance against even attempting to balance classes with different approaches to play is obviously flawed. For one, your approach wouldn't tell you it was a bad idea if you changed the magic rules to make all spells at-will in the way that cantrips are now. Apparently there would be no discernible effect on martial-caster balance since you simply can't compare bowls of jello to lyrics, and it would affect all of the bowls of jello.
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So it's a load of hooey, all these threads. Martials can be underwhelming not because they need more numbers or feats or whatever... they can be underwhelming because THEY'RE NOT CASTERS. That's it. That's all it's ever been about.Funny. Martials have no problem competing with Casters in 4e.
Martials are underwhelming because there's a preconceived notion that spells need to be awesome.
Being preconceived doesn't make it less true. Look at the various magic-users in fiction: from Gandalf and Doctor Strange to Harry Dresden, Negi Springfield and Terra Branford. When they bring their wills into play, stuff tends to happen. It may be subtle, it may be explosive, but generally speaking, it tends to be awesome.
The problem is the idea that only spells can be awesome. That the Mundane has to be, well, mundane.
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The problem is the idea that only spells can be awesome. That the Mundane has to be, well, mundane.
This pretty much sums it up. Well, that, and the idea that martials are only ever mundane. Mix those two together, and you've got the major preconceived notion that causes these kinds of threads and debates...
Personally, martials should be like super heros. Let the muggles be mundane, fighters should be treated like Captain America. Sure, Scarlet Witch can modify reality (God-Wizard Wish!), but, come on. Cap's kicking ass in all the most badass ways. You seriously tellin' me Cap's mundane?
(Edit: that last bit is more general rhetorical, and not directed at you SAMAS. Just so ya know)
Just want everyone to be in the same weight class.
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I've said this before, if a Mage can make their own dimensional plane, then a martial should be able to cut a mountain in half, or enlist enough aide where he can have a personal traveling caravan following him.
A 20th level fighter should be able to take on an entire nation's Army single handedly and not break a sweat beating it in a single afternoon(might actually still be able to given mass combat rules).
2 20th level fighters fighting should leave behind the same Destroyed landscape of two titans fighting, leaving the country side ravaged.
but nah, you just stab things in the face hard.
and if you're all like "but i don't want to play a god among men" well okay end it anywhere before level 11 or so and keep that same feel.
like sure you can stab a pitfiend into the ground, but you still just feel like a fighter stabbing things, even when your 20th level! This is when you're starting to get on par with Demi-gods...
These discussions always fall apart. Sometimes I think they need fewer participants :(
Martials have specific problems that need to be addressed, but most solutions just involve "giving them higher numbers". Martials already deal high damage.
This is true. Playing a Sorceress in a Kingmaker campaign, one of her strongest spells damage-wise is to Telekinetic Charge the party Barbarian into whatever needs to go away. :)
A lot of solutions would involve nerfing specific spells. Take Wall of Force, for instance. Now it has hit points, so martials can chop it down... but it has hardness 30, which is not reasonable.
A problem with balancing spells it that... well, balance, between making them too good or mostly useless. If it's weak enough for a Fighter to hack through, then can it be strong enough to provide protection from that Balor?
I like spells that are both powerful and can be dealt with by martials. Mirror Image is a good example of this. The wizard has lame AC but can use Mirror Image to redirect attacks, almost completely bypassing their lame AC. Martials can deal with the spell without using magic... by taking down those images with attacks. Given the number of attacks a martial can make, they can take down images pretty fast, but that's time the wizard can use to cast other spells. Contrast with Greater Invisibility, which gives an excessive bonus to Stealth, so much that the martials have very little chance of spotting the mage. (There's actually lots of spells, resisted by skills, that aren't well-balanced.)
Here's another issue. Again, I think not being easily bypassed at base is kind of the reason it's Greater Invisibility. It's not unstoppable. Factors such as Dust of Appearance (I think that works), or noisy terrain/sound traps, or simply tossing dust/smoke in the air to force them to move through it. It's still capable of being thwarted, but now you have to actually make an effort at it, rather than hope they flub a roll or you get a good one.
Another issue is sheer boredom. Martials can rarely do anything beyond damage. Just hit and deal damage. This is because nothing else has as much "worth" or "fun" as damage. The key is to give something with the damage.
This. This right here is the issue. For the most part, the only effective thing Martials can do in combat is inflict damage. This may be cool if you're a Barbarian, whose primary thing is inflicting lots of damage, but Rogues, Monks, and especially Fighters tend to be sidelined since, as I just mentioned, there's another class that already does the one thing they can do better.
And the sad thing is, between Archetypes and Prestige Classes, Fighters already have the tools they need to be useful. It's just that they're all scattered and locked in those archetypes.
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A problem with balancing spells it that... well, balance, between making them too good or mostly useless. If it's weak enough for a Fighter to hack through, then can it be strong enough to provide protection from that Balor?
Does a 5th level spell really need to be strong enough to provide protection from that Balor?
Balors bypass it with teleport since their SLA make them into casters to an extent.
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Personally, martials should be like super heros. Let the muggles be mundane, fighters should be treated like Captain America. Sure, Scarlet Witch can modify reality (God-Wizard Wish!), but, come on. Cap's kicking ass in all the most badass ways. You seriously tellin' me Cap's mundane?
I agree with you. The fighter archetype isn't inspired by "regular" warriors, but on par with mythical heroes. Sure, those guys were usually backed by gods, but Ajax, Odysseus, Jason and Sigurd weren't. Even though I think "cutting a mountain in half" is a bit over-the-top, I think martials should be able to fight through spells and generally kick the asses of supernatural beings the same way mythological heroes did. This is coming from a guy who plans on playing an alchemist, but I friggin' love martial classes waaaay more than casters. Then again, the alchemist isn't considered a caster by Paizo, so I guess it technically counts as a "martial" class.
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At this point martials don't have issues anymore. They have subscriptions and collections.
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At this point martials don't have issues anymore. They have subscriptions and collections.
Martials get Crane Wing nerfs. Casters get Sacred Geometry. If that doesn't convince people, they cannot be influenced by logic. /thread over.
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That doesn't convince me. Crane Wing was broken. The game is filled with creatures that make only one powerful attack, but someone thought that feat was a good idea anyway. It was like they wanted to promote grinding combat.
Unfortunately similarly broken caster stuff doesn't get nerfed. You can still summon a "wall of horses".
The only problem with Crane Wing was a poorly designed archetype that was allowing characters to grab a feat intended for 5th level and up at 2nd level, where most of those single big attack monsters live. Flight, greater invisibility, emergency force sphere, etc. are all more effective defensive measures than Crane Wing ever was.
Crane Wing was an ability that, with the exception of one poorly thought out archetype, was limited to either a defensively focused class that should have such abilities or characters who had invested significant resources and didn't come online until the same level wizards are flying, teleporting, and hurling explosive blasts of fiery death.Part of the martial/caster disparity is this mistaken belief that just because you can do something "all day" it's somehow better than a limited resource. That might be true at levels 1-4, but it certainly doesn't apply to the rest of the game. I've seen very few Wizards actually run out of spell options at 5th level and beyond, but I've definitely seen Fighters, Rogues, and other martials who can't push on once the group's healing resources run low. It doesn't matter if you can keep swinging once the wizard/cleric/druid/etc. runs out of spells if you are reliant upon those spells yourself to actually do your job.
I think crane wing should have worked like a free-parry that you don't have to sacrifice an attack for, but only triggers if the attack would be successful against you.
An auto-block is a bit silly. Mirror image is too, but closing your eyes and blind-fight reduce it's chance to stop an attack to 25%. Same for greater invisibility. In tight spaces like many dungeons flight won't help. Emergency force sphere also prevents the caster from doing anything.
I perfer how Psionics does defenses, psions get good AC and good HP via spells, the concealment effects are "weaker" and there is no mirror image.
I don't really think crane-wing was OK pre-nerf, but neither is some other things that remain un-touched. Crane-wing post nerf is just silly.
Ya I know. I just quoting his post to agree that martials have problems and tackle the other issue.
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I think crane wing should have worked like a free-parry that you don't have to sacrifice an attack for, but only triggers if the attack would be successful against you.
They could have modeled it after the Duelist's Parry and it still would have been useable, unlike what was actually left post-errata.
An auto-block is a bit silly. Mirror image is too, but closing your eyes and blind-fight reduce it's chance to stop an attack to 25%. Same for greater invisibility.
If you're burning a feat to bring a 1st level spell down to only a 25% miss chance before calculating in AC and other defenses, I'd the spell is still doing its job, especially considering how much smaller a portion of the caster's resources that spell represents compared to the feat spent to "counter" it. You're vastly overstating the case on greater invisibility. The character with Blind-Fight still has to be able to actually figure out what square the caster is in to begin with, a relatively unlikely feat considering the caster can move and cast every round so as never to attack from the same place.
In tight spaces like many dungeons flight won't help.
How many creatures are making single meaningful melee attacks in these tight dungeon spaces where flight isn't a factor? I honestly can't think of a single creaturein the CR 5 and up range who only has one melee attack a round and no better options that's going to be found in a tunnel too tight to allow flight. And even if such creatures were/are plentiful, flight is still only one tool in the caster's arsenal, whereas Crane Wing represented a significant investment (again, except for one poorly executed archetype that should have been the target of the errata).
Emergency force sphere also prevents the caster from doing anything.
It really doesn't, and at higher levels is probably the best spell to combo up with mislead.
I perfer how Psionics does defenses, psions get good AC and good HP via spells, the concealment effects are "weaker" and there is no mirror image.
I agree that psionics is generally preferable to core casting.
I don't really think crane-wing was OK pre-nerf, but neither is some other things that remain un-touched. Crane-wing post nerf is just silly.
Agreed again. Regardless of whether or not the original Crane Wing was too potent, they fixed it by taking it out back and shooting it in both knee-caps before pistol-whipping it for good measure.
That doesn't convince me. Crane Wing was broken. The game is filled with creatures that make only one powerful attack, but someone thought that feat was a good idea anyway. It was like they wanted to promote grinding combat.
Unfortunately similarly broken caster stuff doesn't get nerfed. You can still summon a "wall of horses".
Um... what? I am looking at the beastiaries... not many things only have 1 attack... unless your party is consistantly up against Hippos and T-rexes....
Um... what? I am looking at the beastiaries... not many things only have 1 attack... unless your party is consistantly up against Hippos and T-rexes....That doesn't convince me. Crane Wing was broken. The game is filled with creatures that make only one powerful attack, but someone thought that feat was a good idea anyway. It was like they wanted to promote grinding combat.
Unfortunately similarly broken caster stuff doesn't get nerfed. You can still summon a "wall of horses".
A size restriction on the attacker would have made it just fine, so it worked same as Deflect Arrows. That would make it unusable on a ton of things out of the bestiaries. Natural 20s or critical threats could have simply been immune to the deflection, that'd be fair. At the very least let us choose to apply the dodge bonus after we know what attacks hit us. As it stands now, you can completely waste it attempting to deflect a natural 1 but let the critical threat through.
But no. PFS GMs complained, Paizo complied with a massive overreaction they've shown no intent of going back on, then Sacred Geometry and Arithmancy got put out because magic gets to be special.
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Um... what? I am looking at the beastiaries... not many things only have 1 attack... unless your party is consistantly up against Hippos and T-rexes....
Are you implying that all of your campaigns aren't a hideous mish-mash of Jurassic Park and Fantasia? Geez, LTP N00b :P
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Are you implying that all of your campaigns aren't a hideous mish-mash of Jurassic Park and Fantasia? Geez, LTP N00b :P
Um... what? I am looking at the beastiaries... not many things only have 1 attack... unless your party is consistantly up against Hippos and T-rexes....
I wanna say Paizo should release a Triassic Reserve AP, but there's absolutely nothing special about dinosaurs in Golarian. ;_;
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I wanna say Paizo should release a Triassic Reserve AP, but there's absolutely nothing special about dinosaurs in Golarian. ;_;Are you implying that all of your campaigns aren't a hideous mish-mash of Jurassic Park and Fantasia? Geez, LTP N00b :P
Um... what? I am looking at the beastiaries... not many things only have 1 attack... unless your party is consistantly up against Hippos and T-rexes....
Unless all of the dinosaurs are actually wildshaped druids who've lost their sense of reason. That'd actually make for an awesome adventure.
Unless all of the dinosaurs are actually wildshaped druids who've lost their sense of reason. That'd actually make for an awesome adventure.I wanna say Paizo should release a Triassic Reserve AP, but there's absolutely nothing special about dinosaurs in Golarian. ;_;Are you implying that all of your campaigns aren't a hideous mish-mash of Jurassic Park and Fantasia? Geez, LTP N00b :P
Um... what? I am looking at the beastiaries... not many things only have 1 attack... unless your party is consistantly up against Hippos and T-rexes....
That reminds me of when the Animorphs went to pre-historic times. Cassie went all blood-crazy as a T-Rex.
I kinda want someone to have a druid mindslave farm to run their dinosaur theme park now.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I've made many attempts at trying to communicate what it is that martials need. I think my most successful such communication may be this post:
I haven't read the whole thread, but to my way of thinking there's one big thing that the fighter needs to be "unchained" from that's more important than anything else:
Realism.
"You can't shoot a bow that many times in 6 seconds!"
"You can't jump that far!"
"You can't just cut through a door like it's butter!"
"You can't wrestle something that big!"
"You can't cut something incorporeal without magic!"
"You can't break that world record!"You can't, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't... No, you can't. That's why I'm playing a fantasy game starring someone who isn't YOU.
Currently, the name of the game is "if real people can't do it, then fantasy people can't* do it either".
I want my fighter to stop the dragon's bite by grabbing him by the teeth. And then body slam him.
I want my fighter to swing his sword and bat your enervation right back at you.
I want my fighter to get save-or-die effects at the same level your wizard does. Maybe even earlier, since I'm supposed to be good at killing things.
I want my fighter to have things he can do that no magic spell can duplicate.
Unchain the fighter from "realism". Everything else will follow.
*:Unless there's magic involved.
Um... what? I am looking at the beastiaries... not many things only have 1 attack... unless your party is consistantly up against Hippos and T-rexes....That doesn't convince me. Crane Wing was broken. The game is filled with creatures that make only one powerful attack, but someone thought that feat was a good idea anyway. It was like they wanted to promote grinding combat.
Unfortunately similarly broken caster stuff doesn't get nerfed. You can still summon a "wall of horses".
Or boars. Or ogres. Or level 5 orc barbarians. One of the "fixes" for the feat pre-nerf was to leave out large chunks of the Bestiary.
That's a bit like fixing Greater Invisibility... by only using creatures with Blindsight or echolocation or similar abilities. Well, that spell got nerfed, just in a really unfair way, and really shackles what the DM is allowed to use.
So.. your issue is prior to level 6???,...
Boars are a non-issue past... what? Level 2....
Ogres are again, a non-issue to a party of level 5 or higher with a competent mage...
Level 5 martials is a very low bar to set...
Oh.. and Color spray answers your issues as well...
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It's not like it blocked one attack per opponent. It just blocked one. If you're doing a single monster encounter and that monster only has one attack, well, you've designed an encounter poorly.
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It's not like it blocked one attack per opponent. It just blocked one. If you're doing a single monster encounter and that monster only has one attack, well, you've designed an encounter poorly.
Which might be a commentary on PFS encounter design.
I've made many attempts at trying to communicate what it is that martials need. I think my most successful such communication may be this post:
I haven't read the whole thread, but to my way of thinking there's one big thing that the fighter needs to be "unchained" from that's more important than anything else:
Realism.
"You can't shoot a bow that many times in 6 seconds!"
"You can't jump that far!"
"You can't just cut through a door like it's butter!"
"You can't wrestle something that big!"
"You can't cut something incorporeal without magic!"
"You can't break that world record!"You can't, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't... No, you can't. That's why I'm playing a fantasy game starring someone who isn't YOU.
Currently, the name of the game is "if real people can't do it, then fantasy people can't* do it either".
I want my fighter to stop the dragon's bite by grabbing him by the teeth. And then body slam him.
I want my fighter to swing his sword and bat your enervation right back at you.
I want my fighter to get save-or-die effects at the same level your wizard does. Maybe even earlier, since I'm supposed to be good at killing things.
I want my fighter to have things he can do that no magic spell can duplicate.
Unchain the fighter from "realism". Everything else will follow.
** spoiler omitted **
This is the best thing I've read on this forum in months. Hoping devs noticed it.