my 2 cents is you can make a brawler in a lot of interesting ways.
but if you want to optimomize damage with the base class...you can and do it very effectively
a that point you dont have as many options or you cant go as "deep" into a option with MF, but you can still use it.
blind fighting? no problem
you can take combat expertise with one of your MF charges and go to trip town or whatever...but you might not be able to get as fancy as a brawler who had combat expertise in there normal build.
same for dodge feat.
with pummeling style i dont think DR is a concern also.
so im basically making a build involving power attack, dragon style, pummeling style, dragon ferocity, pummeling charge, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization, improved critical
that is every combat feat i think i need to optomize my unarmed damage. i cant think of anything else right now.
fill in the broader spectrum of brawler base feats to branch into with MF with the rest
oh and iron will, gotta shore up that will save.
still seems feat starved when i try to build one with the most basic focus on making me better at punching things.
power attack, dragon style, dragon ferocity, pummeling style, pummeling charge, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon specialization.
then iron will (cuz our will sucks)
then after ALL OF THAT, you can build towards things to branch out with flexibility. things like combat expertise, dodge, for examples.
you can make some interesting builds, but i think if you priorities punching things, your going to need to use flexibility at a more base level.
thankfully my playgroup has a good few house rules. power attack and combat expertise being free for all classes being some of them (and piranha strike for dex users)...helps me and the calss out a lot, tho i know not everyone has the luxury
one of the greatest features of the brawler with paizo's point buy system is its SAD as hell. and maintains a lot of flexibility with flexibility lol.
sacred fist really is more feat starved, and imo needs combat style master feat more then a brawler would. because of all there swift actions. but first level freedom of movement for 1 round is pretty damn sexy in my book too.
fighter archetypes? you can get flexibility of the brawler, more feats, and with the other archetype you can fly and pump your physical stats....but you dont get flurry of blows/brawlers flurry. wich is pretty noticeable too.
that is fun tho i have a weird obsession with punching dragons with my fists.
you could "use" pummeling style as soon as you get flurry of blows or brawlers equivalent. as youd get 2 attacks you could combine them.
im making a chart all 3 ideas, archetyped fighter (the two new archetypes), brawler, and sacred fist warpriest.
they each provide some interesting options. my main attraction to sacred fist/brawler is keeping the unarmed damage dice progression of a monk
ya true. im actually somewhat torn between the ideas of sacred fist or brawler to pair with a 2 level moms dip, or even a the two new archetypes with a fighter...
pummeling style, how i love what youve done for the unarmed combatant.
i see a lot of people try to build very specific "parts" of feats to use brawlers ability.
but what about a more generalist approach?
focus on damage first (wich i believe you can do in 5 feats with a 2 level moms dip).
after that is taking feats for defense (iron will comes to mind)
then the most basic of feats to help you branch out in the best of ways.
power attack (wich youd take anyways)
are all great starters.
so thats 8 feats.
what other feats would really fit into a "generalist" idea of being open to using flexibility in the most ways possible without gimping yourself.
also is there any other important defense feats? the only one i can think is iron will due to our low will saves. pummeling style will blow thru DR well enough that i wonder if they could function effectively without a lot of magical equipment, so you could focus more on defensive items nad your chance to hit.
i would only agree if when tehy errata pummeling style they make it work with the close weapon group as opposed to just unarmed strikes. at wich point i believe they would just use a cestus
i dont think anything will happen with pummeling except for it being errata'd to only work with unarmed strikes. the crane wing change was complete crap and only done to satiate PFS players, wich is rediculous in itself as they should have just banned it. i told my playgroup i refuse to use crane style unles si can use the pre-nerf version.
i thought about dropping for the shield archetype, for the same reasons you said too.
as far as defensive options, what would you suggest? iron will definitly
i think they stack as one is Su and the other is Ex. and they come from two different classes. also @ trekkie i think invisibiliy is a bad example, thats a spell, not a bonus. again tho this is by RAW
i think the intention of pummeling is to be used either thru a punch or a unarmed strike, nothing else. but due to poor wording and use of RAW people can do it with a lot of things atm.
the FoB one im uncertain of. it says you get FoB ..exactly like the monks of the same name.
so i dont think there is a strong call for RAW or RAI for it to go either way, id leave it to DM fiat
ty for showing me this sir, this seems...interesting. so its basically a 2 level moms dip, i was going to do the same thing with brawler for a 2 level moms dip. looks like you trade out martial flexibility and some maneuver training crap for spells and blessings. cool!
just to note its not four extra feats at first level. you get one extra feat at first level, 2 at 6, etc.
at a time at least, i suppose you could by the wording maybe add more feats to it next round.
and the issue is when you use it for more then a weapon that has a abysmal crit rating.
any weapon that can get to 15-20 crit range is incredibly overpowered with this feat line.
on a weapon that is 20-20 and at best 19-20, not nearly as much.
its not that bad if it was limited to just unarmed strikes, the cheese is when you start using it for more.
edit: feel free to post your own brawler build ideas
ive seen a lot of people talk about rules, but few talk about actually building something. brawler offers a interesting opportunity, given the nature of his martial flexibility lends him to building slightly different then some, tho you dont have to.
for this build lets assume that by the wording, you only have to spend your resources for martial flexibility once every ten rounds, but you can in those ten rounds, switch feats every round for free (or up to a move action technically)
there is some argument over whether this is accurate or not, and ive seen the argument for both sides.
that all said what do we need to make a brawler work at punching really well
pummeling style/dragon style.
now thats a lot of feats to start...potentially 7...tho we can cut out the third dragon style feat...thats 6. still a lot tho.
how about a 2 level dip in MOM? (i know what a surprise right?),
so as soon as level 5 you can do a charge>pummel with dragon style/ferocity kicking in...and using your brawlers fury to get an extra attack so pummel at such a early level isnt a waist. now there may be a better way to go about the beginning "skeleton" for this build but this is a general basis. At level 4 you have 8 uses of flexibility instead of 5, if you go human you can spend another one on flexibility and get 11. or you can decide on some base feats so you can branch out further with flexibility into feat chains.
now with pummeling style, id be tempted to drop maneuver training for the shield archetype to have a ranged option. it replaces brawler strike (equivalent of ki strike) but pummeling style will let you blow thru DR anyways
beyond this im not sure and im going to need to comb thru the database of combat feats very closely.
also might be wise to get a few defensive feats like iron will since they have a crappy will save and no real way around it
Marcus Robert Hosler wrote:
not saying my feelings were right or accurate. but good for you?
ill go enjoy a bloodrager, ever since i saw the playtest for one my first thought "finally, my version of a magus"
I'm sure RAI you can only have 1/2/3 instance of Martial Flexibility up. I'm pretty sure they didn't intend to brawler to be able to grab 30 feats at once until lvl 20. I'm also sure "The brawler can use this ability again before the duration expires in order to replace the previous combat feat with another choice." means you can use another charge to replace the feat chosen before the duration us up, not that you can freely switch out the chosen feat for the duration without expending more charges. Paizo should probably stop hiring 17-year-old interns to do their editing.
im going to go on the assumption that it doest cost another resource to do...until they change it.
when they change it ill drop the notion of playing a brawler completly, thats far too limited to be any remote fun.
your looking up the dictionary definition of a word, taking it at face value in hopes of it working in your favor.
i gaurantee that it wont be with any weapon. i gaurantee you when they said punch, they are talking about a punch.
/sigh, im just going to ignore these threads, people try way to hard to break mechanics
its just the feel when playing it man, i cant tell you a stone cold rationalization for it. i feel like a glass cannon namby pamby when i play one.
K177Y C47 wrote:
i do, and i said it already.
what id personally like is if i could take mutagen and have it replace maneuver training isntead of flexibility....that would make me happy.
Darche Schneider wrote:
this means very little to be honest. at no point did i say brawler is a broken unplayable mess.
you could say the same thing for someone playing any class. its perspective based.
the part im zoning in on is "before the duration expires". if thats not how it works then i go back to thinking its a horrible ability.
Also, do we know if the Brawler has a cap for how many Flexibility feats can be active at once. Ex: I use a move to take three feats this turn, and then another move to add three more feats on top of that. Obviously it would burn up usages but the language is a little vague.
i suppose its possible, but i dont think it would amount to much either.
losing brawlers strike is horrible in my mind, it basically means youd need the wealth to buy a decent shield AND a amulet of mighty fists...unless a DM wanted to give me amulet of mighty fists for free i dont see how this is feasible.
other then that at least it would be a semi funky option /shrug
and the fact that you can freely change those feats during the 1 min use durations as many times as you want...means you can do all that in the same 10 round period without expending more resources.
two weapon fighting, wording, and the picture of the magus iconic character.
it just feels finnesse-ey to me. bloodrager is what i wanted out of that type of class.
i honestly dont like magus, but it has nothing to do with its mechanics
i just dont like the flavor, the theme...a nimble and dextrous melee fighter that weaves spells into its combat.
i also dont like swashbuckler...a nimble and dextrous melee fighter
i just dont think i like the idea of being a nimble and dextrous fighter
tho i like monks...so go figure.
i want to SMASH not slice
bloodrager is literally my version of what id want out of a class like that...heavy martial, light caster.
i know people like abarrant or abyssal for obvious reasons, but i really like arcane, and id just drop the AoO and DC vs caster things with primalist, and keep my blur/haste/form of the dragon etc.
did one fight where my teamates could cast haste, so instead it was protection from arrows (luckily we were facing off against giants with a lot of bouldres, yay for protection from arrows working against them), displacement (just silly), and enlarge.
plus the idea of brimming with arcane energy seems more intriguing to me then just getting all evil looking and growing.
thankyou lemeres, you have helped my over stressed brain understand lol.
until level 20, you can only have up to 3 "temporary" feats from flexibility at a time. tho doing so burns 3 "uses" of the ability. tho as someone mentioned, the fact that you can during those 1 min duration uses change them freely...is incredibly liberating. being able to go blind fighting one round, to tripping the next, to getting over difficult terrain...all on those same 3 uses.
until that was pointed out (as i had missed it repeatedly when reading it) i thought you would have to spend 3 more uses to change the feats in combat...not so. brings a lot more longevity to it.
@marcus, ya i read the capstone, interesting stuff. and i agree while taking all feats as extra flexibility would be entertaining, definitly need to work out some base feats.
@lemeres, maybe im tired i keep reading your first sentence and its greek to me lol. i did just get out of work.
trade out 3 feats...as in? spend 3 feat slots on extra flexibility?
fill in what 3 feats?
god maybe im tired
Didn't see it mentioned, but don't forget that during that minute of usage, you can change up your feat(s) on the fly, so you aren't locked into one feat(s) per combat minute.
good catch, i read it multiple times but always missed that part.
that adds a lot of life to it.
in wich case my only main complaint is maneuver training.
bolded part for emphasis