Great weapons and terrible weapons


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Blindmage wrote:
Personally I'm a fan of the Ripsaw Glaive, cause really, who doesn't love a chainsaw on a pole!?

Lol I actually have a sunder built 2 handed Tiefling in pfs just for that weapon.

Also want to build a gnome forest ranger who uses one for logging.

Now all we need is just a straight up chainsaw and we'll be set.


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Atarlost wrote:
Crossbows and firearms are point and shoot with all the difficulty in loading (training in which is represented by rapid reload and has no bearing on the nonproficiency penalty to accuracy). Bows have more curved trajectories and release technique has a bearing on how straight the arrow flies, but are fairly intuitive. Slings have very curved trajectories and aiming relies on exact timing. There's nothing simple about them.

One extremely important factor regarding crossbows that in d20 games gets them excessively punished for is their ease of use.

Problem is, that simplicity of use was an advantage. An improvement over previous bow technology. It's an upgrade, like "this has a hook" or "composite bows get to for some reason add strength to damage and don't fall utterly apart in temperate weather" or "basket hilts protect the hand".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

My favorite weapon?

The Heavy Shield.

Scarab Sages

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Blindmage wrote:
Personally I'm a fan of the Ripsaw Glaive, cause really, who doesn't love a chainsaw on a pole!?

Treants

Silver Crusade

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Jamie Charlan wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Crossbows and firearms are point and shoot with all the difficulty in loading (training in which is represented by rapid reload and has no bearing on the nonproficiency penalty to accuracy). Bows have more curved trajectories and release technique has a bearing on how straight the arrow flies, but are fairly intuitive. Slings have very curved trajectories and aiming relies on exact timing. There's nothing simple about them.

One extremely important factor regarding crossbows that in d20 games gets them excessively punished for is their ease of use.

Problem is, that simplicity of use was an advantage. An improvement over previous bow technology. It's an upgrade, like "this has a hook" or "composite bows get to for some reason add strength to damage and don't fall utterly apart in temperate weather" or "basket hilts protect the hand".

It's mainly an advantage when outfitting a large army. If Pathfinder was built to simulate large-scale, protracted warfare, then crossbows would win out as a standard-issue weapon because of their logistics every time, just as in real life.

Because Pathfinder characters are elites in small groups that consider bow training utterly trivial, and maintenance costs are non-existent as you mentioned, the bow will always come out on top.

It's not so much a case of Pathfinder hating the crossbow, as the format of a 4-6 person party of elites makes the crossbow's advantages irrelevant.


Speaking of Crossbows, how would an Alchemist with a Launching Crossbow fare? Assuming you're a half-elf, of course, to be proficient with it in the first place?


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Ventnor wrote:
Speaking of Crossbows, how would an Alchemist with a Launching Crossbow fare? Assuming you're a half-elf, of course, to be proficient with it in the first place?

Probably worse than one with a Heavy Crossbow and Explosive Missile. Alchemists are probably the best crossbowmen in the game at this point just because they can load it up with bomb damage and ignore reload time (somewhat, still can't full attack) without a feat.

Silver Crusade

I am very pleased with how this conversation has gone.

Sczarni

Since I talked up the rope dart earlier, I should also mention the aklys, which seems like it's trying to do what the rope dart does, but in a different way. Like the rope dart, the aklys is a thrown weapon on a cord that you throw and retrieve, but there are several differences.

The first is that the aklys has a better damage die and the Trip property, which means you can use it to trip someone up to 20 feet away. This alone makes it worth consideration for a trip build.

The second is that the aklys is also a melee weapon, while the rope dart can't be used to make melee attacks without Snap Shot. While the rope dart's primary users- monks- can threaten in melee with their unarmed strikes anyway, the aklys's melee capability makes it more attractive for a non-monk.

The third is that the aklys requires a move action to retrieve once thrown. Unlike most ranged weapon, neither Rapid Reload nor Quick Draw can negate this penalty. Crossbows, firearms, and slings have long since taught us that the only way a ranged weapon can compete with bows is if they can be "reloaded" as a free action. The rope dart doesn't list what action it takes to retrieve, but since it has the monk quality, it must a free action at least during a FoB in order to function as written.

Before discovering the rope dart, I tinkered with an aklys-focused fighter build and found it wanting. However, a trip-focused character might want to grab one as a secondary weapon-- the cord means it can't effectively be disarmed, and the main reason you'd need a back-up weapon is because yours got disarmed.


The exotic weapon aklys can be made quite fun as can be seen Here.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Great Weapon: Whatever wins the DPR contest of the month.

Terrible Weapon: Everything else.


LazarX wrote:

Great Weapon: Whatever wins the DPR contest of the month.

Terrible Weapon: Everything else.

Oh, don't be so cynical. : D Have a chakram!


As a quick side tangent, has there ever been any official ruling on when you use a Scorpion Whip with EW:Whip Proficiency,does it still do lethal damage without Whip Mastery? Also does a Scorpion Whip naturally provoke AoO's like a normal whip would? Let's leave aside that most whip build would eventually want Improved Whip Mastery for threat range.

Silver Crusade

blahpers wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Great Weapon: Whatever wins the DPR contest of the month.

Terrible Weapon: Everything else.

Oh, don't be so cynical. : D Have a chakram!

*puts it under his drink* Thanks! :D

Now, I just need to find those punch daggers so I can turn over the roast.

..although in the katar's defense, it does have a X3 crit on a simple.


Spook205 wrote:
blahpers wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Great Weapon: Whatever wins the DPR contest of the month.

Terrible Weapon: Everything else.

Oh, don't be so cynical. : D Have a chakram!

*puts it under his drink* Thanks! :D

Now, I just need to find those punch daggers so I can turn over the roast.

..although in the katar's defense, it does have a X3 crit on a simple.

Um.... just so you know... Chakram make REALLY poor coasters... You know, the whole hole in the center thing and all...

Silver Crusade

K177Y C47 wrote:
Spook205 wrote:
blahpers wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Great Weapon: Whatever wins the DPR contest of the month.

Terrible Weapon: Everything else.

Oh, don't be so cynical. : D Have a chakram!

*puts it under his drink* Thanks! :D

Now, I just need to find those punch daggers so I can turn over the roast.

..although in the katar's defense, it does have a X3 crit on a simple.

Um.... just so you know... Chakram make REALLY poor coasters... You know, the whole hole in the center thing and all...

...

...

Damn, they're not even good for that. :/


Spook205 wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
Spook205 wrote:
blahpers wrote:
LazarX wrote:

Great Weapon: Whatever wins the DPR contest of the month.

Terrible Weapon: Everything else.

Oh, don't be so cynical. : D Have a chakram!

*puts it under his drink* Thanks! :D

Now, I just need to find those punch daggers so I can turn over the roast.

..although in the katar's defense, it does have a X3 crit on a simple.

Um.... just so you know... Chakram make REALLY poor coasters... You know, the whole hole in the center thing and all...

...

...

Damn, they're not even good for that. :/

*Pays back* Dont worry... I feel your pain *looks mourningly at Scythe*

Scarab Sages

K177Y C47 wrote:


*Pays back* Dont worry... I feel your pain *looks mourningly at Scythe*

Hey what's wrong with the Scythe? 2d4/x4 with multiple damage types on a martial weapon? It's pretty awesome, especially if you have someone with butterfly's sting and dual kukris feeding you crits.


I did a thread search, but apparently no one has mentioned the Scizore yet. I think its damage is ridonkulous. 1d10 for a one handed melee weapon.

Also:

Scizore wrote:


The scizore grants a +1 shield bonus to AC, but if you attack with the blade, you lose the AC bonus that round and take a –1 penalty on attack rolls with the scizore. While wearing a scizore, you cannot use that hand for anything else. A scizore provides a +10 bonus to your CMD against being disarmed of your scizore. Donning a scizore is a full-round action.

Dual wielding scizores? Sure. Just don't try to pick your nose...


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That -1 to hit sure serves to bring that damage down though.

Scarab Sages

Ravingdork wrote:
That -1 to hit sure serves to bring that damage down though.

This. You are better off using a double weapon or sawtooth sabers than a scizore for two weapon fighting. The larger damage die isn't worth the to hit penalty and it has a crappy crit profile to boot.

Edited for clarity.


If you mean scizore then fair enough. My real point is that 1d10 for a weird bladed tube on the end of your arm is just that - weird.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

The Battle Ladder is a terrible weapon but a decent ladder.


Imbicatus wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:


*Pays back* Dont worry... I feel your pain *looks mourningly at Scythe*
Hey what's wrong with the Scythe? 2d4/x4 with multiple damage types on a martial weapon? It's pretty awesome, especially if you have someone with butterfly's sting and dual kukris feeding you crits.

Because they are even worse coasters? I mean, who wants to accidentally deal x4 damage to their tea cups?

Anyway, chakrams are at least cool jewelry. You can wear them around your wrists, or as necklaces (Depends on size though, obviously). That is how they are traditionally carried.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Chakrams are the best martial thrown weapons, aren't they?

Makes them the best option for most melee martials, until they have enough money to get a magic ranged backup (which will be the composite bow).


Petty Alchemy wrote:

Chakrams are the best martial thrown weapons, aren't they?

Makes them the best option for most melee martials, until they have enough money to get a magic ranged backup (which will be the composite bow).

I think the Atlatl is worth mentioning, for basically being the only "thrown" weapon that can be enhanced with magic, without being lost with use. I know its not really a throwing weapon, but it launches javelins at a range increment of 50 ft! Kinda cool


For that matter, Rope Dart is also pretty good (assuming you can retrieve it as a free action).

You can also get Equipment trick (rope) and use it as a whip.

Scarab Sages

LoneKnave wrote:

For that matter, Rope Dart is also pretty good (assuming you can retrieve it as a free action).

You can also get Equipment trick (rope) and use it as a whip.

Or a Spiked Chain...


Spiked chain had been nerfed to the ground, whip has more reach, and it's a monk weapon that's also throwing (so both flurry and rapidshot work). So still pretty good and oft overlooked. Beats the shuriken at least.

Silver Crusade

On the spiked chain, where they close a door, they open up one with meteor hammer.

I actually kinda dig the meteor hammer.


After using the Elven Curve blade in one campaign I made a barbarian with a Falchion in the next. Then my NPCs started favoring the Scimitar. Once you taste 18-20crit range its hard to go back. You just Crit in every battle. Its hard to match that for sheer fun. Anything with the crit range baby.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Isn't it pure cheese that crossbows- especially heavy crossbows - can have quickened reload times due to feats? Talk about circumventing physics.

I always thought it a shame that one-handed bastard sword wielding cost a feat. I often took it anyway, but the +1 average damage isn't worth a feat. Plus, we never seemed to find magical bastard swords in treasure troves - in campaigns where magic shops were few and far between.

The spiked chain has got to be the most ridiculous weapon conceptually, followed by the scythe. AFAIK, scythes used as weapons were classed poorly, like improvised peasant polearms, and had the blade mounted longitudinally like a glaive, rather than retaining the "grim reaper" right angle configuration. I'm glad the spiked chain was nerfed.

YMMV.

The Exchange

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Petty Alchemy wrote:
Chakrams are the best martial thrown weapons, aren't they?

Well, I like 'em. Solid damage, excellent throwing range. You do have to occasionally beat somebody to death because he simply won't stop with the "warrior princess" jokes, but every weapon has its little disadvantages.


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Wheldrake wrote:
Isn't it pure cheese that crossbows- especially heavy crossbows - can have quickened reload times due to feats? Talk about circumventing physics.

You think that's bad, I've heard there's this crazy new class in the game called the Wizard. I thought it would just be a stage magician, but it turns out he's got all kinds of ridiculous and stupid unrealistic physics-breaking stuff. It's like the don't expect their high fantasy game to be one hundred percent compliant with real-world physics or something!


Wheldrake wrote:

Isn't it pure cheese that crossbows- especially heavy crossbows - can have quickened reload times due to feats? Talk about circumventing physics.

Isn't it pure cheese that there is a class that can literally create sentient life? Talk about circumventing physics!


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Technically, (almost) everyone can. It just usally takes some tries and about 9 months.


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My experience is that no weapon in the game can top the basic Hi-Crit weapons (Rapier, Scimitar, Falchion). A few weapons have surfaced among the supplements that maintain this success by also having a high crit range in addition to something else, such as the Falcata high crit multiplier high crit chance weapon.

.

In my home rules package ive taken some steps to make the Exotic weapon prof feat (and martial) a bit more appealing by taking on a +1 damage bonus built into the feat (Ergo, if you gain proficiency via class features you don't gain this damage bonus). Generally spending a feat on weapon proficiency is'nt worth it (The easiest way to explain this is by damage. A longsword (martial) deals 1d8 damage, its one-handed exotic sword equivalent is Bastard sword, which deals 1d10, an average damage increase of only 1. When you select a damage increasing feat you want a feat that grants you at least +2 damage, but exotic weapon proficiency only grants you 1, so it needs that extra point for it to be an effective feat choice).


lemeres wrote:
It is for all these reasons that slings continued to stay in use until around the 16th century.

I was with your post up until I read this.

The metal armor you talked about? That was pretty much an item of the 15th Century; full plate came into being and vogue in the 1450s and was mostly phased out by 1500 (around the same time more advanced, cheap gunpowders became relatively common and guns started to have some actual effect against armor). The only reason armor continued to be used at all after that was that it had some effect against low-powered guns (note that metal armor intended to act against bullets wasn't fully phased out of military usage until the 1920s).

So, realistically, the reason why slings were phased out has nothing to do with the armor; it has everything to do with the emergence of firearms.


What do people think of the dueling sword? Basically, it's a longsword where a feat unlocks more abilities.


MagusJanus wrote:
lemeres wrote:
It is for all these reasons that slings continued to stay in use until around the 16th century.

I was with your post up until I read this.

The metal armor you talked about? That was pretty much an item of the 15th Century; full plate came into being and vogue in the 1450s and was mostly phased out by 1500 (around the same time more advanced, cheap gunpowders became relatively common and guns started to have some actual effect against armor). The only reason armor continued to be used at all after that was that it had some effect against low-powered guns (note that metal armor intended to act against bullets wasn't fully phased out of military usage until the 1920s).

So, realistically, the reason why slings were phased out has nothing to do with the armor; it has everything to do with the emergence of firearms.

I quite agree.

me-continued wrote:
But I'll admit, the sling was somewhat marginalized due to the high level of skill required to use it without accidentally sending it backwards at your own men. Besides the aforementioned advantages, it persisted due to its easy construction. Crossbows, in comparison required a lot of technical skill to make, but it was easy to load and shoot (perfect for untrained serfs who had become increasingly urbanized and unfamiliar with ranged weapons). But in the end, slings only lost their place when firearms (another lead shooting weapon) overtook their role on the battlefield.

Firearms combined the 'easy to use' aspect with the last technical advantages that lead slinging.....slings had besides 'cost of construction'...which fell to the fire arms' 'cost of training/replacement of soldier'.

Of course, that doesn't mean that armor didn't help put it on its deathbed. For something that requires that much training in order to be effective, you need people who are actually interested in training in it. "This is how my father fought, and his father before him" seems like a fairly good reason....but if those forefathers decided 'hey, that armor means this is useless. I guess I should stop practicing so much in front of my kids'.... well....a century is a rather long time...more than enough for a people to mostly forget a skill.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

For Exotic Weapon Prof, I just do the following:

I renamed it to Extraordinary Weapon Prof. Usable only on weapons you have Weapon Focus on.

Simple Weapons 20/x2 are treated as martial weapons 19-20/x2

Martial 19-20/x2 and 20/x3 weapons become 19-20/x3 weapons.

18-20/x2 weapons increase base damage by one die size (d6 to d8, etc)

And I get rid of the falcata. Now your longsword is awesome, like it's supposed to be.

==Aelryinth


lemeres wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:


*Pays back* Dont worry... I feel your pain *looks mourningly at Scythe*
Hey what's wrong with the Scythe? 2d4/x4 with multiple damage types on a martial weapon? It's pretty awesome, especially if you have someone with butterfly's sting and dual kukris feeding you crits.

Because they are even worse coasters? I mean, who wants to accidentally deal x4 damage to their tea cups?

Anyway, chakrams are at least cool jewelry. You can wear them around your wrists, or as necklaces (Depends on size though, obviously). That is how they are traditionally carried.

what is a coaster?


lemeres wrote:
I quite agree.

My fault for not continuing to read. You have my apology for that.

Quote:

Firearms combined the 'easy to use' aspect with the last technical advantages that lead slinging.....slings had besides 'cost of construction'...which fell to the fire arms' 'cost of training/replacement of soldier'.

Of course, that doesn't mean that armor didn't help put it on its deathbed. For something that requires that much training in order to be effective, you need people who are actually interested in training in it. "This is how my father fought, and his father before him" seems like a fairly good reason....but if those forefathers decided 'hey, that armor means this is useless. I guess I should stop practicing so much in front of my kids'.... well....a century is a rather long time...more than enough for a people to mostly forget a skill.

One of the things I find interesting is that firearms existed and remained relatively easy to use for quite some time before full plate existed, but really didn't come into swing until improved gunpowders were devised. Of course, that didn't stop the Europeans from using cannons, pistols, gunpowder bombs, and rocket designs imported from Ottoman-Turkey in their wars. Which is part of why Pathfinder irritates me as to how it treats gunpowder; it went for the most inaccurate portrayal possible.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Lincoln Hills wrote:

[...]

And I've only ever seen the light mace, siangham and trident come into use because a really nice magical one was found.

As far as the super-popular end; greatswords, longswords and longbows are still leading the pack. There's some affection shown to glaives and greataxes; dwarven war-axes seem to lead bastard swords slightly for the dedicated sword-and-board types. Javelins and morningstars are the front-runners in the simple weapon category.

I like the alchemical silver light mace from creation at level 1. Unlike the piercing morningstar, it does not take the silver damage penalty and is cheaper to boot, though for martial characters I'd go with a aAg light hammer for my silver weapon (and probably silver nunchaku for a monk, since it's only 1# and 1gp more than the sai). Given that I usually have a light mace, I also tend to favor the heavy mace (in cold iron if I can afford it) as the primary weapon for a simple weapon weilder, but that's just aesthetics more than mechanics.

I second the person who says the dagger is great, and usually go with the cold iron one since that's also pretty cheap.

As for the siangham, I'd pick one up along with a nunchaku, kama, and probably temple sword as a monk. (Not that I'd expect to need it, but you never know when you'll meet a rakshasa.)

For two-handed weapons, I like the S/P option on halberds over glaives, and I think the longspear is underrated (because more sorcerers should use it to give flanks or aid another at low levels).


xavier c wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:


*Pays back* Dont worry... I feel your pain *looks mourningly at Scythe*
Hey what's wrong with the Scythe? 2d4/x4 with multiple damage types on a martial weapon? It's pretty awesome, especially if you have someone with butterfly's sting and dual kukris feeding you crits.

Because they are even worse coasters? I mean, who wants to accidentally deal x4 damage to their tea cups?

Anyway, chakrams are at least cool jewelry. You can wear them around your wrists, or as necklaces (Depends on size though, obviously). That is how they are traditionally carried.

what is a coaster?

...the little bits of cork (or whatever material) that you put under your drink to prevent the condensing water from staining the wood of your table.

We had been discussing chakrams, and someone compared them to coasters. When someone went on a separate discussion about scythes, I decided to keep up the coaster joke, because of the incongruity of a large bladed instrument on a stick being used as something often used during a tea party. That's the joke.

Anyway, MagusJanus, about the dueling sword- it seems like it has a similar niche to the elven curved blade, except it has a lower crit and is onehanded (slight advantage?). Unless you were going after the swordlord stuff, then it is not quite as good. Still something of an upgrade from regular finesse weapons, since you can 2 hand it.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

xavier c wrote:
lemeres wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:


*Pays back* Dont worry... I feel your pain *looks mourningly at Scythe*
Hey what's wrong with the Scythe? 2d4/x4 with multiple damage types on a martial weapon? It's pretty awesome, especially if you have someone with butterfly's sting and dual kukris feeding you crits.

Because they are even worse coasters? I mean, who wants to accidentally deal x4 damage to their tea cups?

Anyway, chakrams are at least cool jewelry. You can wear them around your wrists, or as necklaces (Depends on size though, obviously). That is how they are traditionally carried.

what is a coaster?

Those little circle things you put under a glass so it doesn't leave stains on furniture/table/cupboard/your computer desk.

==Aelryinth


Wheldrake wrote:

Isn't it pure cheese that crossbows- especially heavy crossbows - can have quickened reload times due to feats? Talk about circumventing physics.

So I guess tha guy swinging 8 times in 6 seconds isn't circumventing physics....

Or the archer who can literally rain Death down on people....

This is why martials can't have nice things...


i belive that non of the exotic weapons has to cost a feat...
there should be proficiency points... or can buy them with skills or something else, not a feat.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I went the other route as far as cost.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency allows you to use skill points to buy proficiency in any exotic weapon you like.

Of course, to balance that, you need martial weapon prof first, which does the same thing for martial weapons, as Simple does it for Simple.

Then you have to limit how many profs in weapons classes can take, instead of 'all martial weapons' for every martial class, however.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

I went the other route as far as cost.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency allows you to use skill points to buy proficiency in any exotic weapon you like.

Of course, to balance that, you need martial weapon prof first, which does the same thing for martial weapons, as Simple does it for Simple.

Then you have to limit how many profs in weapons classes can take, instead of 'all martial weapons' for every martial class, however.

==Aelryinth

that´s a good idea.

But if we houserule the prof system... could be beter if let them take one prof every X lvl like in AD&D2E, but substracting the following feats
- weapon proficiency
- weapon focus
- shield prof
- shield focus
- armor light etc prof
- exotic weapon prof
- weapon specialization
- and so on

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