The Flash TV Series


Television

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Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

So Wally will be able to beat Savitar, since

Spoiler:
Savitar wouldn't know what happened from past memories if Barry isn't part of the fight. Not because Wally is faster than Barry, but simply because he isn't Barry.


This really is the worst timey-wimey stuff I've seen since Star Trek Voyager.


Perhaps Savitar is trying to get Killer Frost to kill Tracy simply to create a point of no return for Caitlin; as was pointed out, "Killer" Frost hasn't actually killed anyone yet.

We keep hearing that Barry is all about hope. Savitar, being Barry, may at least subconsciously realize there's always hope for Killer Frost to return to being Caitlin...until she turns that corner.

As far as Savitar knowing the exact words that were spoken during an altered past he should not have experienced, perhaps all that time he spent in the Speed Force, manifesting in other time periods and alternate worlds, also gave him access to alternate timelines, and this one was important to him because Tracy is a focal point.

Riffing off what Joel said, Wally will be able to beat Savitar because Savitar only has wide knowledge of Barry's (that is, his own) main and alternate timelines; he can only reliably predict and counter anything Barry does. Other people can't be reliably predicted, but he can counter them simply by being fast. Wally, OTOH, can't be reliably predicted or beaten just on the basis of speed.


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Aberzombie wrote:

So, it looks like we have a winner...

** spoiler omitted **

Savitar Suit:
My theory is what tracy was talking about... extra speed = friction... My theory is that super-fast-future Barry has outgrown his red suit, and moved so fast he nearly melted his face off... and needs this new and improved 'strange metal' suit to do what normal Barry does with the current one.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

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Thomas Seitz wrote:
This really is the worst timey-wimey stuff I've seen since Star Trek Voyager.

The Flash has always been the comic that causes headaches by invoking some of the craziest theoretical physics paradoxes

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

phantom1592 wrote:
Aberzombie wrote:

So, it looks like we have a winner...

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

I 100% agree

Dark Archive

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I wanted Savitar to secretly be Barry's dad, having faked his death via speed remnant or whatever. Having the guy who spent years falsely imprisoned for murdering his wife turn out to be an actual bad guy, who may have somehow orchestrated the entire thing, would just tickle my funny bone.

This, eh. With future Barry, it seems Grant Gustin is going to get a chance to show off his Tatiana Maslany 'let's play a bunch of different versions of the same character' chops.

Panabaker is also having fun, it seems, with the Killer Frost role. (Or perhaps I'm just having fun watching her in that role.) She's rarely dropped some snark in the past (particularly at babble-machine Felicity during crossovers) that suggests that she's not 100% nice girl all the time, and it'd be neat if, moving past the Killer Frost phase, she ends up a little more in the middle, with a little more attitude (only not quite, yanno, psychotic and murderous... More 'Storm with a Mohawk' attitude, less 'Jean eats a planet and 11 billion asparagus people die with a horrible scream' attitude.).


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Set,

I doubt Killer Frost will ever wrack up THAT kind of body count...but I've been wrong before!

Mark,

Maybe but at least some times I could wrap my head around it. This?! Not so much.

Btw do I get points for using Timey-wimey?


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Thanks for the hideous image of Caitlin in a Mohawk. Blech!


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I kind of called this one. I deserve partial credit even though I said it as a joke assuming writers were better then that.


All I know is I hope next season's villain isn't a mystery. We've had 3 seasons of "the big bad is secretly someone the team trusts". While season 1 did a decent job (though the mystery wasn't so much Well is Reverse-Flash but rather "Why is Reverse-Flash helping Barry?") the "Jay" and Future Barry reveals have been underwhelming.


Vid,

You deserve it more than the writers do.

Kal,

No I think second season was good. This one has been up and down. If we're going with a new villain for the season, I'd prefer we have something like Gorilla Grodd build his own Rogues or hell, Abra find a way to come back from another time to help build up his own little crime spree.

Mostly I want NO Speedster villains!


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I would like to see grodd as the main villain in the next season.


I saw an article earlier suggesting a soft reboot.
Shake up Team Flashes roles (i.e. Cisco and Caitlin solve stuff at the last minute, Iris and Wally do something impulsive and dangerous, Joe provides moral support, and Wells does whatever this season's Wells does (comedy relief this season)). No secret villains. More short arcs like Gorilla City. Maybe more focusing on the Rogues. Barry needs to learn a lesson and then remember the lesson he has learned.

That last one fits all the DCW shows.


I'd like to see more Rogues. Even without Captain Cold and heat Wave there should be something they can do to make them look like the threats they are supposed to be.


Green,

I think the last one fits PLENTY of the DCW shows...

Phantom,

Not sure it would be the same without them but yeah I mean there's still Golden Glider, Mirror Master, Weather Wizard and couple other pretty standard Rogues that could work.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Wasn't the Thinker all but confirmed as next season's big bad? At the very least the showrunners have stated that next years villain will not be a speedster.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I've seen he Thinker mentioned by various fan pages as a possibility that fits the requirements of a non-speedster villain, but not seen anything official other than non-speedster.


Yeah the Thinker had been tossed around as a rumor/possibility, but like Joel said, nothing's been confirmed. YET.


I have always wanted to see Killer Frost join the legends.
Back when they acknowledged MPD, there were alienists who specialized in merging personalities.

What about Snerk from alternate Earths?

Really daffy would be good future Barry fighting bad future Barry.

Enterprise became a bad comic book. The Flash pretty clearly defined what was and wasn't retconned by time travel.
If the Legion of SuperHeros just appeared and vanished without rhyme or reason, that would be at Enterprise level.


Goth,

There's nothing to suggest we'll ever get to SEE the Legion on this Earth. Supergirl's is more likely.


I would hate to see the writing for legions braniac. I'm irritated just thinking of him being dumbed down.


Well we already saw the writing for his Greatx6 Granddaughter - as played by Laura Vandervoort.


I was confused but your referring to smallville yeah?


Supergirl s1.


I do not remember this at all. I am going to have to go back.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16

The Kara from Smallville played Indigo in Supergirl in WB shows continuing nod to previous shows.

Still wish they'd gotten Welling to play Superman


It would have been confusing. Too many people were wanting it - as it would make Smallville in continuity with Supergirl and the DCW.

Which is problematic since SV already had a Supergirl, and a Green Arrow, among other characters and plots not compatible with DCW.

Scarab Sages

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Damnit! I knew it!

Spoiler:
F@*+ING EVIL TIME REMNANT!

It doesn't make my brain hurt any less, though. So, let me see if I get this straight......

1. Savitron kills Iris, thus enraging Barry to the point where he....
2. Creates a bunch of Time Remnants to stop Savitron, who then.....
3. Kills all but one of the Time Remnants. That survivor then....
4. Becomes Savitron, and (according to Cisco).....
5. Travels back in time to create the myth of Savitron.
6. Somewhere in all that, Savitron gets trapped in the Speed Force by the Speed Bazooka, until Wally frees him earlier this season.

My one question in all that is.....which version of Evil Remnant Barry gets hit with the Speed Bazooka? Logic says it's the one he has yet to create. Then he's imprisoned, and spends a bunch of time/non-time trapped/going mad/plotting his revenge.

If that's the case, then what happens to the current Savitron? The one who already escaped from the Speed Force prison? He said something about becoming master of time (or some s#** like that). I wonder if he ends up being absorbed by the Speed Force after he kills Iris and the Barry Time Remnants (all but one), and then evil survivor takes his armor and closes the loop, so to speak.

Seriously, this s&%* gives me a f+&$ing headache, and makes me want to drink. I have to imagine the writers are doing some serious, hard core drugs.

Edit:

Also....AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!


Timey wimey crap again! But at least we got some idea how they get the Speed Force Cannon to work. STEAL ALIEN TECH!


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Wasn't that a Dominator device?

Spoiler:
And not just King Shark, but another Rogue next week. How?

Also, that "dark and brooding" voice, I'm pretty sure Grant was channeling Stephen Amell there.


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Well, considering the time remnant said something to the effect of "The more you mess with time travel, the less the rules apply to you." I'm thinking the writers have completely thrown in the towel on having a coherent logic for time travel.

Liberty's Edge

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Ok, so SaviBarry supposedly hates all his former friends because they treated him like RemnantBarry rather than RealBarry after Iris died in the future.

So... why does that make him want to kill Iris?

He has some sort of reason to hate everyone else... but not her. Why wouldn't he still love and want to protect her?

Indeed, his plan seems to be to create the very circumstances that he is supposedly angry about... he wants to force Barry to create time remnants in an effort to save Iris so that he will come in to existence... and be shunned by his friends... which he is furious about... so he is going to make it happen.

Clearly, SaviBarry is an idiot.


On the one hand, SaviBarry needs to kill Iris to make Flash try and stop him by making the time remnants, thus creating RemnantBarry. If there is no RemnantBarry made, then SaviBarry can't exist. (Even though he does.)

However, KNOWING that SaviBarry is RemnantBarry, it seems to me that all RealBarry has to do is NOT make time remnants to fight SaviBarry in the first place, thus uncreating SaviBarry in the first place.

This gets into the whole " "Go back in time and kill your own grandfather" effect, where, if you kill your own grandfather, how do you exist to go back and kill him in the first place" territory.

It also goes into something like: RemnantBarry becomes SaviBarry after being shunned by everyone else, so, knowing this, why can't everyone, well, NOT SHUN RemnantBarry, if he even does get created, thus, at least trying, to prevent his turn to being SaviBarry?

As was stated in the episode quite a few times, "cause and effect".


It makes me wonder if the writers of the show may have written themselves into a corner. Time travel stories are a tricky element to write about.


This stuff makes my head hurt...

But at least Barry will try to get some kind of power source to get the 1.21 gig watts..Wait that's not right! ;)


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4 TJ of energy? OK, let's do the math. Kinetic energy equals 0.5 x mass x velocity squared. Let's say Barry has a mass of 80 kg (a little under 180 lbs, probably about right for Grant Gustin). We have mass, we have energy, we can solve for the speed Barry has to run to generate 4 TJ of energy. v^2 = 2 x (4 TJ) /(80 kg) = 10^11 (m/s)^2. Therefore, Barry has to run at 316,227 m/s, which is approximately 0.1% of the speed of light. That number also converts to ~1,140,000 km/hr, or ~700,000 mph. We'll see if CW Barry can run that fast in an attempt to generate the necessary energy, and if so, what numbers the writers *actually* come up with.

Oh, and the sun produces 4 x 10^26 J/second, or approximately 100 trillion times 4 TJ. Cisco may be a great engineer, but he's a horrible astronomer. ;)


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Tar,

Well no one said he had an astrophysics degree!!

I mean I expect him to know engineering, not astronomy!

But regardless, I don't see Barry doing that in a way they could harness and use to power the gun.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Tar,

Well no one said he had an astrophysics degree!!

I mean I expect him to know engineering, not astronomy!

But regardless, I don't see Barry doing that in a way they could harness and use to power the gun.

That's what electives are for!

Seriously, I could see some double-speak turbine powered by Barry's running. That was a minor plot point in DK2 (shudder), where Barry powered 1/3 of the USA.

We'll just have to see if the MaGuffin space crystal that Snart (yay!) needs to steal does the trick.


Considering it was made by the Dominators who are an offshoot of the Guardians... I'd say yes.

Dark Archive

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If I lived in this 'verse, I'd want a Spear of Destiny, so that I could rewrite reality to make time travel impossible...

Or at least not possible for speedsters. 'Cause they seem to have terrible judgment.

+1000 to whomever said they want next season's big bad to *not* be a speedster.


Set wrote:

If I lived in this 'verse, I'd want a Spear of Destiny, so that I could rewrite reality to make time travel impossible...

Or at least not possible for speedsters. 'Cause they seem to have terrible judgment.

+1000 to whomever said they want next season's big bad to *not* be a speedster.

Yeah its not like the speed force chooses the most qualified every time.

Scarab Sages

Thomas Seitz wrote:
....the Dominators who are an offshoot of the Guardians....

Say what?


As far as I know, Green Lantern: Emerald Knights is the only source that suggests the Dominators are "first races" old, and even then they're just an aggressor race that prompts the Guardians to create the first power rings.

Where is it suggested they're an offshoot of the Guardians?


Whoops! Sorry! I got the Dominators mixed up with the Controllers.

My bad!

Set,

Yeah well I'm still not convinced the Spear of Destiny can stop time travel. Otherwise it would make things WAY more complicated for DC. Even if they did it just to speedsters.

Scarab Sages

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Well, that was extraordinarily depressing.....

Spoiler:
So, it looks like the moral of this season is...the bad guy wins because the heroes are idiots. Barry's callous disregard for creating and sacrificing time remnants is what made Savitar possible. That and his idiotic decision to save his mother and create Flashpoint. When he does stuff like that, he's not much of a hero.

Or maybe it's because the writers created an overly complicated narrative that even they were clueless about on occasion.

The Philosopher's Stone is now...calcified speed force? That is ten tons of stupid in a one ton plotline.

I'm guessing something about Cisco could derail Savitar's plans. Which is why he's encouraged Killer Frost to end him.

Based on what has previously been stated, it seems the finale will see Savitar enacting the final stages of his plan to "become a god", Barry being an idiot by creating the time remnants to stop Savitar, and all the remnants but one (the now future Savitar) being killed while succeeding in stopping current Savitar from becoming a god. Coincidentally (and conveniently) in all this, Savitar will suddenly have absolutely no clue how they defeat him, even though his own past time remnant self will presumably be present.

And, of course, in all this we get the joy of wondering if the writers will keep their promise to not have a speedster as the main villain next year. Considering that, if all turns out as Savitar says, his own past self remnant boy will be running around, I have little faith.


It was depressing and I really felt jipped by that Speed Force Gun.

Liberty's Edge

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Spoiler:
I think they were beating us over the head with clues of how this will be resolved;

1: Barry will have to be selfless / risk losing to 'do the right thing' (as seen with and then stated by Snart)
2: Cisco going to save Caitlin is important somehow
3: HR is going to do something useful

An implausible lineup to be sure, but that's what I read from the 'meta narrative' of the episode.

The easiest/stupidest solution would be that Savitar slaughters everyone while Barry steadfastly refuses to create any time remnants... until Savitar eventually kills Barry... thus making it impossible for him to create any time remnants... impossible for Savitar to come in to existence... and wiping out everything Savitar did. *poof* everyone is alive again and fine.

Really hoping that isn't what they are going with. The Cisco and HR threads suggest there may be something better in the works.

Scarab Sages

Thomas Seitz wrote:
It was depressing and I really felt jipped by that Speed Force Gun.

Yeah, talk about a big let can of nothing. "Gee, sorry Flash! I have this MacGuffin that automatically protects me from your speed cannon. HA HA."

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I'm expecting that Snart's advice to "be good" will play out by Barry creating the time remnants, having all but one die, but then being good to the survivor, taking him in, and thus removing the motivation to ever become Savitar and turn evil. That then will short circuit the time loop of Savitar's existence, and Iris comes back, etc.

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