The Flash TV Series


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Right now I'm not convinced Barry CAN handle anything by himself because he's not fighting Speedsters.

Also with regards to Grace, Catilin already said that giving the cure to young Grace MIGHT not work and/or kill her. So there's that.

I still don't think we've seen the end of Thawne.

We might though get a glimpse at Godspeed though.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Right now I'm not convinced Barry CAN handle anything by himself because he's not fighting Speedsters.

I think season has been the best for Barry yet. There's something about throwing him that daughter that really made him step up as a hero. He just seems more confident. The legitimate mentor, teacher her the tricks and methods and how to be a hero herself... and just how dangerous time travel is...

HE'S not the one making stupid mistakes this season. He's not the one who needs a mentor to tell him some super secret new speed trick... He's more the comic Barry that I used to know.

Now... why they couldn't have mature that way when Wally was around getting trained i'm not sure. There's still some bad there... but it's first season in a long time that gives me hope for the character...

Scarab Sages

An interesting interpretation of the Godspeed character, and one I find to be an improvement over the original comic book version.

Otherwise, it was a pretty decent backstory for Nora. I've got to say this turn in the season storyline makes me a bit happier. Cicada now seems to be nothing more than a plot device. And since the character is (and always has been) kind of lame, I'm okay with that.

Looking forward to Thawne's endgame coming to fruition.

Dark Archive

phantom1592 wrote:
HE'S not the one making stupid mistakes this season. He's not the one who needs a mentor to tell him some super secret new speed trick... He's more the comic Barry that I used to know.

I hadn't seen it quite that way, which should make me like Nora a lot more! Finally, someone other than Barry gets to hold the Idiot Ball! (Since I hated Barry having a death-grip on it, and it being passed on to Elongated Ralph lacked the sort of personal drama to Barry that it has in Nora's hands.)

Ideally, they'd be able to craft some plots where *nobody* has to be a bumbling fool, and the bad-guy is actually a problem without the good-guys displaying staggering levels of incompetence, but I should settle for what they can deliver. :/


They teased me with that "White Lightning". For a brief moment, I was hoping it might be the famous thief with pheromone powers, reinterpreted.

Scarab Sages

Well, that episode was....messy.

What were there, something like 10 different plotlines?

Spoiler:
It seems that no one is ever 100% completely wrong. Barry was wrong about the way he handled Nora, but right about Thawne manipulating her. Iris was wrong about...something....I couldn't actually tell what specific thing. She was right about...something as well. OH, and Thawne is TOTALLY going all father-ish and really cares about Nora.

The Icicle story was interesting and weird. I wish they could have spent more time on it. It was nice to see Barry once again reduced to the role of hero who can't solve a problem on his own (rescuing the mother) without help from someone else. And, of course, it was far too obvious that green stuff was going to turn white at the end there. Obvious foreshadowing is obvious.

Oh joy, now it looks like they're trying to make Cicada important again. I wish they'd make up their minds about how horrible the character is. Both versions.

Overall, this season is turning out to be somewhat of a disappointment. The problem is, they tried to center it on non-speedster main villains that suck ass.

At least we got King Shark vs Gorilla Grodd, though. The big redeeming episode.


Also thanks to that episode, Grodd will be a) much smarter and b) way more powerful telepathically.


I'm only to the first break.

I see Iris read the script, because she somehow knows that Thawne will be on death row in 30 years.
Also, Barry could have... 'corner of Fox and Infantino, April 23rd, 2049 at 8:03pm.'

And if Thawne "invented his own Speed Force" then what was the point of him siphoning Barry's power in season 1? I didn't know that a diesel engine could run on ethanol.

And what is the deal with the cast this season? Legends has $1.98 for special effects each week. Flash has to have one actor take a vacation every week.


Green,

The whole negative speed force thing is a comic construct to explain how Barry can't notice Thawne (plus why Thawne can move through time manipulation better). Mostly I'm fine with it because even though Thawne has his own, it clearly isn't something you can stay connected too.

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GreenDragon1133 wrote:

I'm only to the first break.

I see Iris read the script, because she somehow knows that Thawne will be on death row in 30 years.

Actually the prior episode they all read Nora's diary, so Thawne being on death row is something the whole team knows.


Or at least suspects it...


GreenDragon1133 wrote:
And if Thawne "invented his own Speed Force" then what was the point of him siphoning Barry's power in season 1? I didn't know that a diesel engine could run on ethanol.

I'd have been much happier if they said he'd discovered the negative speed force. One doesn't "invent" a physical force; Isaac Newton didn't "invent" gravity.


Damon,

I'm okay with it if only because I was a fan of Geoff John's Flash Rebirth.


Perhaps I should reread that. As little as I remember of it, I might as well not have read it at all: Wally exists again, but no one remembers him; then Barry remembers Wally, Titans remember Wally.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

Damon Griffin wrote:
GreenDragon1133 wrote:
And if Thawne "invented his own Speed Force" then what was the point of him siphoning Barry's power in season 1? I didn't know that a diesel engine could run on ethanol.
I'd have been much happier if they said he'd discovered the negative speed force. One doesn't "invent" a physical force; Isaac Newton didn't "invent" gravity.

Wasn't it Thawne who said he invented it? If so, that could be a case of his ego determining (or at least publicly saying) he invented it, when in fact he did only discover it.


Damon,

That's a different rebirth. I was talking more about how Geoff Johns helped re-write the origin of the Speed Force and how Barry is the center of it.


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Iris continues to tick me off with just blatant... stupidity. Her daughter is gone and she'll never see her again?? yeah... except for the 2 decades you get to RAISE her... and the fact that older you can be waiting at her apartment when Barry dropped her off to CONTINUE raising her..

The only part of Nora that Iris is actually going to miss... is potentially CONCIEVING her with that girl spending so much time in the past. With 'Crisis' coming next year and the timeline shifting and ther e still being pictures of Barry and Baby Nora... She very well may have been Back to the Futuring herself out of existence...

Now BARRY has all the rights in the world to miss her because he very well MAY never see her again and lost his one chance to connect with her... but Iris?? no...

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Green,

The whole negative speed force thing is a comic construct to explain how Barry can't notice Thawne (plus why Thawne can move through time manipulation better). Mostly I'm fine with it because even though Thawne has his own, it clearly isn't something you can stay connected too.

Why should he notice anything ever? He's never shown any kind of spider-sense about time travelers before. It's just to tie in with the comic... which I really disliked. I loved John's work on Green Lantern Rebirth. Most of those retcons actually FIT the established lore for decades... but Flash Rebirth?? Too many retcons and changing things just to change them. For a story I wanted to read for 20 years, I was very disappointed in it. And yeah, when he needed Barry to get speed and siphon it off it kind of negates the whole Negative speed force...

though I DO like the red eyes bit. I never understood why Thawne had the glowing red eyes in arrowverse…

On a secondary note.. besides budget and casting... is there any reason that Thawne looks like Wells in the future? He lost that disguise at the end of season 1... and he had his 'true' face for all of the Legends series 2.... So whay is he suddenly wearing Wells disguise again at the 'end' of his life? Is this supposed to take place somewhere in the middle of his timeline?


Phantom,

I can't speak to what Johns decisions were with regard to Flash Rebirth; but I can say the writers clearly feel justified in using that as a way to explain stuff.

Now admittedly him using Barry's Speed Force is weird...but the same time, it had a modicum of sense before.

Dark Archive

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phantom1592 wrote:
On a secondary note.. besides budget and casting... is there any reason that Thawne looks like Wells in the future? He lost that disguise at the end of season 1... and he had his 'true' face for all of the Legends series 2.... So whay is he suddenly wearing...

I *think* it was lampshaded in the first appearance of this version of Thawne, that he 'had gotten used to' looking like Wells or some such babble.

Obviously the real explanation is that the actor was available at no extra cost and super-popular to boot (although I have no idea if he's as popular as they keep insisting to us he is, they keep throwing alternate Harrison Wells at us like he's the next coming of Tatiana Maslany, and... he isn't...).


I can't imagine why they can't afford Matt Letscher. Oh wait the Fx budget... :(


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It looks like they can only afford 8/9s of the cast every week as is.

As for why in-universe, wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.


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Man... I know Flash has made a habit of having cheesy inspirational speeches... but I'm pretty sure they went overboard this week. What were there... 3? 4? at least?? Really takes me out of the plot when every 5 minutes another character needs to get on the soapbox and rally the forces AGAIN...

Ralph was pretty awesome though. Loved him doing some deductive reasoning. I want to see more of that.


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Yeah Ralph's detective skills have gone up in recent weeks. Too bad he's not as fast as Batman.

Also it's just weird that Cicada's dagger plays such a huge role at the end...


Thomas Seitz wrote:
Also it's just weird that Cicada's dagger plays such a huge role at the end...

Agreed. Sure, they need a way to suppress Thawne's speed. But are the pipeline cells lost tech that no one else is capable of producing? Future Iris knows they exist, as does future Joe, etc. Seems like they should have been able to pull plans and give copies to Iron Heights.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Yeah Ralph's detective skills have gone up in recent weeks. Too bad he's not as fast as Batman.

Also it's just weird that Cicada's dagger plays such a huge role at the end...

He's a better detective than DCW Batman - aka Arrowman, Inmate ####, Oliver Queen.


Damon,

My guess is because speedsters are extremely powerful, they require more powerful meta-human power dampeners. But even that doesn't really add to me...

Green,

I was thinking non Arrowverse Batman. But sure.


Thomas Seitz wrote:

Damon,

My guess is because speedsters are extremely powerful, they require more powerful meta-human power dampeners. But even that doesn't really add to me...

Pipeline cells have trapped both Nora and Barry at different times.


So...that happened.

Scarab Sages

A disappointing end to a disappointing season. I think this year's story proved that some villains are too lame to even be reimagined properly. Better to stick with the crap-ton of classic (and far more awesome villains) they have access to.


I'm kind of- with you there, A-zombie. I thought they might be able to do something with someone OTHER than speedster. But then they pretty much proved that unless it's Grodd, there's little in the Flash's rogue gallery (other than classic rogues) that prove to last for a while.

Anyways, onto Crisis!


Too bad Flash can't fight Captain Cold or Trickster more often. Or anymore.


Well maybe we'll get another Captain Cold after Crisis...

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

One thing I liked about Cicada which I didn't realize until the end of the season was the that name foreshadowed there being a second Cicada. Similar to how some real cicada insects come only every 17 years, the villain Cicada I was active, and then Gracie was active roughly 15-17 years later and only appeared in the modern day due to time travel. It didn't really change the plot, but it made the name more relevant than simply the breathing mask making a sound which was vaguely similar to a cicada sound.

I also thought that a power dampening bad guy was a different way to challenge team Flash, rather than another speedster, in the same way that Thinker last year did. It's pretty tough to come up with villains who can handle Flash and be a season long threat, so I was fine with that. I do wish that the pacing had Reverse Flash actually escape and be the real villain of the last third of the season though, rather than being a 1-episode end cap and presumably saved for next year.


All I know Joel, is I wasn't scared of Cicada. I was more scared of Thawne. :p Or even the possible return of Zoom.


So. Season Opener was good. Weird but good.


Flash! Ah-Ahhhhhh!

And Chunk was a nice surprise. Although, y'know, not chunky.

Scarab Sages

The whole Queen song scene made the entire episode worth it. As it started to play out, I was amazed it took them this long to use it.

Chunk was indeed a nice suprise. He also seemed to be far more outgoing than the character originally appeared.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I only caught the last 15 minutes, but just in time for Queen, so that was awesome.


The Queen song was great, but I felt the heavy of drama with the whole "The Flash must die."

We'll see what that means in the next episode.


So...that was heavy in places...and also very "We read Wolfman. We need to make Wolfman's vision come alive."


Thomas Seitz wrote:
So...that was heavy in places...and also very "We read Wolfman. We need to make Wolfman's vision come alive."

Not surprising given that Marv Wolfman will co-write the CW's Crisis story.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

I liked that they had Barry go directly against the fate the Monitor shared, and use logical steps to try to find out more. He's learning. I also like that the writers had reasonable counters to what he attempted, and didn't drag out him trying to figure out what he could learn.

Also liked Iris saying "hey, lets just call up Oliver and Kara and beat this thing".

Some interesting thoughts though from the episode:

1) They don't know Oliver's gone
2) There's still some interesting time paradoxes - if Flash disappears (and presumably dies) in a few weeks in the crisis, then who created Gideon in the future, since it was supposedly created by future Barry Allen? (similarly, who sent messages from the future with the Legends of Tomorrow discovered on the Waverider, which were also supposed to be from future Barry Allen). I would expect these will be addressed (and taken as evidence that he somehow survives or comes back), but Barry and Iris haven't though of these yet.


JoelF847 wrote:


2) There's still some interesting time paradoxes - if Flash disappears (and presumably dies) in a few weeks in the crisis, then who created Gideon in the future, since it was supposedly created by future Barry Allen? (similarly, who sent messages from the future with the Legends of Tomorrow discovered on the Waverider, which were also supposed to be from future Barry Allen). I would expect these will be addressed (and taken as evidence that he somehow survives or comes back), but Barry and Iris haven't though of these yet.

I expect you're right, and I have no guess as to how...but there is a very easy out should the writers choose to take it (doubtful): "the Flash has to die"...but which Flash? 52 worlds to choose from. Maybe a Barry Allen whose world has already been consumed by the antimatter wave can die in "our" Barry's place.


Damon Griffin wrote:
Thomas Seitz wrote:
So...that was heavy in places...and also very "We read Wolfman. We need to make Wolfman's vision come alive."
Not surprising given that Marv Wolfman will co-write the CW's Crisis story.

See I knew Marv was working with the writers and producers...but I had no idea his creative input was being used this much. Which is good!

As for what happens to Our Barry versus "Barry Allen Flash must die..." I have no idea. But I'm less hopeful than I was before when I saw Barry go POOF trying to stop the anti-matter cannon...


Reverse flash can hide in the negative speed force.
Maybe all the flashes from destroyed universes are hiding in the speed force.


Unlikely Goth. Historically, the Speed Force exists as a part of the Earth they're connected to. That's why Flash can't run at sub-luminal speeds outside of Earth nor anything else when he's in outer space.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
I'm less hopeful than I was before when I saw Barry go POOF trying to stop the anti-matter cannon...

Huh?


The anti-matter effect, the Anti-monitor in the comics created a cannon that shoots anti-matter.


Thomas Seitz wrote:
The anti-matter effect, the Anti-monitor in the comics created a cannon that shoots anti-matter.

Right...I thought you were referring to something on the show. I didn't recall seeing Barry go POOF this week, so I was confused.


Well he kind of DID in the sense that vision of him dying in the future he did lose...integrity.

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